He said "you guys know me." referring to his crafted image. At worst it was a lie of omission. He's still not trustworthy because the image he created was a lie, he is just like the rest of the unfaithful NBA crowd.
Who is hiding what? Spouting off about crap you don't understand again.
Those types of things can easily be locked from the public, that doesn't mean they are locked from the court. Unless you think you're the judge.
I'd have to hear the case.
You're going to have to back these things up.
That's not reasonable?
You must have a blind spot in your vision.
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LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Speaking publicly for the first time since he was accused of sexual assault, Kobe Bryant denied the allegations and said he "would never do something like that."
"When everything comes clean, it will all be fine, you'll see," Bryant, 24, told the Los Angeles Times in a story published Sunday.
The five-time NBA All-Star would not discuss details of the case, the newspaper said.
"You guys know me. I shouldn't have to say anything. You know I would never do something like that," the Los Angeles Lakers star said in the brief telephone interview.
It says he denied the charges. There is paraphrasing and select quotes, but it says he denied them. Just because the article isn't the raw transcript of what was said doesn't mean it is wrong or unclear. Do you think those select quotes were the only thing he said?
As for the hiding, I didn't say it would be a mistrial if it were kept from the the public. It has to be given to the defense or it would be a mistrial.
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However if just two months prior she was hospitalized as a danger to herself with regard to suicide not once but twice, it can show a pattern of mental instability. Those 911 calls could corroborate that. Having incomplete information is one thing. Having the information and hiding it is another and could be grounds for a mistrial.
The "public" won't be corroborating patterns. The prosecution and defense will. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
The case is here and it involves two boys. The first is clearly rape in my book, but the second, involves "the minor" John T.
Please understand that I'm not saying John T. is a great guy or anything. I believe that even while the rape was contested he was found guilty sexual battery. It is the decision itself that is scary. It says that a woman ambigiously removing consent during the act makes you a rapist. No force, nor even duress. If you are fondling her a certain way during the act and she says "No, not there," or "we might get caught," you could end up being charged with rape.
As for the that's not reasonable, no it's not. No one male, or female, should lose their job over telling a joke.
The theoretical isn't a science experiment with an unknown answer. The law clearly states what is and isn't permissable. I suppose if I said that if you plotted to kill your mother and then did so with a gun, it would be "theoretical" that they would charge you with first degree murder.
And you would be reprimanded/fired for trying to decipher a co-worker's displayed tattoo?
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As I mentioned it isn't about sex in instances like this. It has become thought control and speech control. In the case mentioned the whole case started because one worker complained of grafitti in portable toilets.
I see nothing at all of thought control, nothing. Speech control, yes, but in a private enterprise that is 100% acceptable.
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As for the hiding, I didn't say it would be a mistrial if it were kept from the the public. It has to be given to the defense or it would be a mistrial.
And there is absolutely nothing indicating that the defense will have access to all pertinent evidence. If the court decides it is more prejudicial than probative, then it won't be in the trial.
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As for the that's not reasonable, no it's not. No one male, or female, should lose their job over telling a joke.
If they have been reprimanded/written up/warned before about such behavior, then absolutely they should. And I would very confidently say there are "jokes" that would warrant immediate termination.
Sorry for the link trouble... here are a couple of sources that mention the case and the outcome. I tried to pick a couple different sides to represent it fairly.
Detectives were originally presented an affidavit signed by the victim stating that the intercourse was consensual, though the woman later said she was tricked into signing it and still wished to pursue the case.
Whether he is right or wrong the point is you could have a piece of paper with the woman's signature on it agreeing to consent and if she laters says it isn't you can STILL be charged with rape.
Whether he is right or wrong the point is you could have a piece of paper with the woman's signature on it agreeing to consent and if she laters says it isn't you can STILL be charged with rape.
Your simplistic interpretations of legal matters continue their frustrating reign.
If she signed the "piece of paper" under false pretense or undue pressure it is compromised.
"What do you mean 'not-guilty'!? I don't care about the video and 12 credible eye-witnesses showing the defendant in a different state at the exact time of the crime, he signed a confession! Sure I put a gun in his mouth and screamed that I would kill him if he didn't sign it, he signed a piece of paper!"
Your simplistic interpretations of legal matters continue their frustrating reign.
If she signed the "piece of paper" under false pretense or undue pressure it is compromised.
"What do you mean 'not-guilty'!? I don't care about the video and 12 credible eye-witnesses showing the defendant in a different state at the exact time of the crime, he signed a confession! Sure I put a gun in his mouth and screamed that I would kill him if he didn't sign it, he signed a piece of paper!"
Yeah try that line with your local auto dealer.
The point which you miss and also exaggerate, is that there is no reasonable manner under which a man can prove he had consent without it being doubted. The issue with most crimes is innocence until guilt is proven. With a rape accusation if this were true then they would have to prove the man DIDNT have consent instead of him proving he does.
That is what I was getting at with the Michael Irvin thing as well. It is the dangerous thing about rape being about consent with only the woman being credible and capable of giving consent.
What can clearly prove consent? Instead of me guessing around it, tell me. She said yes. Well according to the California Supreme Court saying you've got to get home(not no) is withdrawel of consent. Having a signed letter doesn't insure consent. Having her say yes, but she's remorseful and declares herself to drunk to have given consent. (Again try that with drunk driving)
How can a man prove his innocence, something he shouldn't have to do, the state should have to prove his guilt, when only one party controls all the variables?
It's just so hard being this prettay... yes it is....
Someone here mentioned this...
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A prosecutor will take plenty of cases if it improves their political prospects, gives them face time on television, grows their budget, etc. They are human and have human motivations. Watch any competitive race for district attorney in an urban area and you will see the true nature of their job.
Prosecutors handling Kobe Bryant's sexual assault case won a request for additional money Tuesday, securing $105,000 from county commissioners and the possibility of more.
The aid could be increased again based on District Attorney Mark Hurlbert's needs, Eagle County commissioners said. Other counties in the judicial district could be asked to contribute to Hurlbert's $2 million budget, county finance director Mike Roeper said.
That money probably has nothing to do with his salary - it's just money to prosecute the case. I wonder how much Kobe will spend...
I didn't say it was going to his salary. It could grow his office which in turn helps his political asperations. As for what Kobe will spend, I'm sure it will be far less than this woman will attempt to sue him and her employer for.
Well I'm sure that refusing to prosecute a rape case wouldn't have done much for his political career.Is there any evidence of that, or are you just making it up? In any case, I think it's great that you're such an advocate for rights of the accused.
I assure you that there are folks accused that I would not be an advocate for. However this just makes no sense. It would be way to easy for a Kobe type to get ten of these ladies a night. It makes no sense that he would force himself on her. We are often told that rape isn't about sex, it is about control. I just don't see how this guy is grasping at straws to get control. He literally has it all and has it all under control.
Having been in entertainment, I have seen the screwballs, stalkers and groupies. I don't know if this woman is one or not, but I don't lump those with multiple suicide attempts or even one suicide attempt as mentally strong.
She went the next morning, likely reported it out of spite and has watched the thing blow out of control.
I've watched others try to explain these gaps in reporting in the past and to me it almost always smells. I have had items stolen and even been mugged at knife point with an absolute fear that I was going to die right then. (Knife to front/side of neck does that) When I was out of that situation I called the cops ASAP.
If rape is so tramatic drive straight to the hospital, call the cops straight from there. Heck I'm a guy and I were raped by some strong male dude with a penchant for virgin butthole I'd be hitting the cell phone/pay phone/whatever as soon as I could. I wouldn't go home and wait until the next morning.
The point which you miss and also exaggerate, is that there is no reasonable manner under which a man can prove he had consent without it being doubted. The issue with most crimes is innocence until guilt is proven. With a rape accusation if this were true then they would have to prove the man DIDNT have consent instead of him proving he does.
In rape cases they usually prove resistance, which would most certainly be proving he didn't have consent. You state that the accused must prove consent in a rape case, this is not true.
victim attitude
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That is what I was getting at with the Michael Irvin thing as well. It is the dangerous thing about rape being about consent with only the woman being credible and capable of giving consent.
And Irvin was cleared of all charges and the woman went to jail.
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What can clearly prove consent? Instead of me guessing around it, tell me. She said yes. Well according to the California Supreme Court saying you've got to get home(not no) is withdrawel of consent.
Depends on the context. We know almost nothing else about that case.
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Having a signed letter doesn't insure consent.
Not in all cases, no.
If what she was signing was misrepresented to her why should she be bound by it?
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Having her say yes, but she's remorseful and declares herself to drunk to have given consent. (Again try that with drunk driving)
Where did this happen?
And past that, IMO, a girl can be intoxicated to a point she can't make a decision or give consent. Using your simplistic logic it would be perfectly legal to slip date-rape drugs left and right. "Well she didn't say no!"
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How can a man prove his innocence, something he shouldn't have to do, the state should have to prove his guilt, when only one party controls all the variables?
What planet do you live on where he has to?
----------
BRussell:
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Is there any evidence of that, or are you just making it up?
I missed this post at first. Unfortunately I saw it after I replied above.
trumptman:
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It would be way to easy for a Kobe type to get ten of these ladies a night. It makes no sense that he would force himself on her.
Sounds like someone is trying to live his fantasies out through athletes. You sure do watch a lot of television and movies, trumptman, you seem to live in a world of black and white absolutes, where categories of people are solid and definite.
It makes no sense to you that maybe there are women who don't want to have sex with Kobe Bryant a few hours (?) after meeting him? Only your dear wife and sainted mother, the only non-dirty-greedy-whores on planet, earth would refuse his advances. Excellent thinking, Norman Bates.
"these ladies". Pathetic.
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We are often told that rape isn't about sex, it is about control. I just don't see how this guy is grasping at straws to get control. He literally has it all and has it all under control.
He hangs out with this girl, thinks he's getting somewhere. In LA he surrounds himself with women who want to do what he does, but he's in a smaller town now with a girl not so sure of what she wants to do, maybe scared of the whole situation, too intense. But they're kissing and whatnot and Kobe wants sex and he's refused. He, Kobe Bryant, the man no-game whitemen across the nation say could get "ten of these ladies a night", wants some action and she refuses? Him? Kobe "3 rings" Bryant?
Nope, no way could there be a control and power issue! I'm sure that Kobe sneer belies nothing about his personality off the court. Because I read ESPN the Magazine and watched First Wives Club, he would never do anything like that.
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Having been in entertainment, I have seen the screwballs, stalkers and groupies. I don't know if this woman is one or not, but I don't lump those with multiple suicide attempts or even one suicide attempt as mentally strong.
What would her mental strength have to do with this? Is she a liar? Has she been dishonest about anything that you know of?
She went the next morning, likely reported it out of spite and has watched the thing blow out of control.
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If rape is so tramatic...
Ok... it's kind of difficult to get past this one and continue talking to you without raging personal attacks. I don't know how you could even start a sentence with the words "if rape is so traumatic". But unfortunately i do know, that's what makes it all so frustrating that in our lovely free country we allow anyone with the desire to hold forth in great length on subjects they don't know a damned thing about.
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...drive straight to the hospital, call the cops straight from there. Heck I'm a guy and I were raped by some strong male dude with a penchant for virgin butthole I'd be hitting the cell phone/pay phone/whatever as soon as I could. I wouldn't go home and wait until the next morning.
That you know absolutely nothing of the psychology of rape is not surprising at all to me. That your victim attitude could blind you so thoroughly that you could, in one thread, discuss how underreported sexual assault is only to act as if the exact opposite is true and ignore the psychology behind it in another thread is no surprise to me. Your speech has nothing to do with being rational or even participating in a discussion, but merely pushing some line that you can't even defend.
I missed this post at first. Unfortunately I saw it after I replied above.
trumptman:
Sounds like someone is trying to live his fantasies out through athletes. You sure do watch a lot of television and movies, trumptman, you seem to live in a world of black and white absolutes, where categories of people are solid and definite.
It makes no sense to you that maybe there are women who don't want to have sex with Kobe Bryant a few hours (?) after meeting him? Only your dear wife and sainted mother, the only non-dirty-greedy-whores on planet, earth would refuse his advances. Excellent thinking, Norman Bates.
"these ladies". Pathetic.
Look we get it, you disagree. You've posted nothing. You've cited nothing. We are speculating on he said, she said. You don't like my version of it and thus post your own. No sense being an insulting ass about it. You make generalizations about me and this discussion and then spend two pages pissing and moaning about it.
As for the atheletes and women thing. Yeah we never hear about groupies and women associated with atheletes. I'm not living THROUGH these guys. You see it just about anywhere. Play in a band for a while. Be a star athelete in something even in some shit-hole town. The numbers may change, the behavior doesn't. Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Nose...end of it... see beyond it. I suppose Michael Jordan was sued for palimony because his sperm was left on the toilet seat. I suppose Magic got aids from the kitchen sink. I suppose you take common knowledge and even common experience and dismiss it with the wonderful backing of grouchy Groverat says it ain't so.
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He hangs out with this girl, thinks he's getting somewhere. In LA he surrounds himself with women who want to do what he does, but he's in a smaller town now with a girl not so sure of what she wants to do, maybe scared of the whole situation, too intense. But they're kissing and whatnot and Kobe wants sex and he's refused. He, Kobe Bryant, the man no-game whitemen across the nation say could get "ten of these ladies a night", wants some action and she refuses? Him? Kobe "3 rings" Bryant?
Oh I forgot your hypothetical is more valid because you burped it out your ass. She isn't so sure what she wants to do because... oh she's from a small town. Except that the small town is a ski resort that caters to the rich and famous so they aren't so naive about them.
I suppose she was wearing a daisy print dress, had a bow and was carrying her blue ribbon from the 4H club. Talk about victimizing someone. You con job is thick.
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What would her mental strength have to do with this? Is she a liar? Has she been dishonest about anything that you know of?
Mental strength to me denotes mental stability she appears sketchy in that area. Has she been dishonest about anything that I know of? Who knows? She doesn't have to give her name or face the press. She can just make an accusation and watch the DA go get another $105k to try to prove it.
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Ok... it's kind of difficult to get past this one and continue talking to you without raging personal attacks. I don't know how you could even start a sentence with the words "if rape is so traumatic". But unfortunately i do know, that's what makes it all so frustrating that in our lovely free country we allow anyone with the desire to hold forth in great length on subjects they don't know a damned thing about.
Yeah well you are welcome to share your personal rape experience Grove. Otherwise you are reading and drawing conclusions just like the rest of us.
Besides how do you know I don't know anything about it? Because you say so? Nice backing.
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That you know absolutely nothing of the psychology of rape is not surprising at all to me. That your victim attitude could blind you so thoroughly that you could, in one thread, discuss how underreported sexual assault is only to act as if the exact opposite is true and ignore the psychology behind it in another thread is no surprise to me. Your speech has nothing to do with being rational or even participating in a discussion, but merely pushing some line that you can't even defend.
I know nothing based off... oh your opinion. Links, quotes, sources, anything? Underreported sexual assault. Oh I mentioned that from your pamphlet. The one that makes you an expert on both domestic violence and rape. You scream for links and then post none or repeat the same one over and over. You obvious have a he-man must protect feeble woman complex which you mask by trying to declare that you would treat them as equals. Take your counseling need elsewhere.
Look we get it, you disagree. You've posted nothing. You've cited nothing. We are speculating on he said, she said. You don't like my version of it and thus post your own. No sense being an insulting ass about it. You make generalizations about me and this discussion and then spend two pages pissing and moaning about it.
You said that she reported it the next morning likely out of spite. Do you have anything to back that up? Anything at all except some odd fear of women as a nefarious group?
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As for the atheletes and women thing. Yeah we never hear about groupies and women associated with atheletes. I'm not living THROUGH these guys. You see it just about anywhere. Play in a band for a while. Be a star athelete in something even in some shit-hole town. The numbers may change, the behavior doesn't. Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Sure, there are groupies. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this girl is one.
Of course, the girl who was falsely identified as the accuser was threatened and called a whore and worse across the country, but let's ignore that.
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Oh I forgot your hypothetical is more valid because you burped it out your ass.
Mine was a hypothetical as well, but you'll notice I don't label Bryant a serial rapist or prick while the accuser is labelled a gold-digging whore. Note the difference. You said you said "I just don't see", so I gave you an alternative scenario, I never once said that's what happened. Keep tilting at windmills.
Also, Occam's Razor applies in the absence of full knowledge. False accusation generally get thrown out before they get this far. Does that mean Kobe raped her? No, but it does increase the chance that maybe she isn't lying.
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She isn't so sure what she wants to do because... oh she's from a small town. Except that the small town is a ski resort that caters to the rich and famous so they aren't so naive about them.
Still doesn't compare to L.A. groupies who hang around the basketball team. I never said that's what she was like, it was a hypothetical and clearly so.
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Mental strength to me denotes mental stability she appears sketchy in that area. Has she been dishonest about anything that I know of? Who knows? She doesn't have to give her name or face the press. She can just make an accusation and watch the DA go get another $105k to try to prove it.
All she did was "make an accusation"? Did you know she went to the hospital and was physically examined for signs of rape? Gold-digging whore probably raped herself, eh?
And that $105k thing you keep bringing up is just laughable. You're bringing a case against a guy with more money than God, you're going to have to have some funding yourself. Post a picture of the DA's new BMW before you start whining about stupid shit like that.
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Yeah well you are welcome to share your personal rape experience Grove. Otherwise you are reading and drawing conclusions just like the rest of us.
I know about rape. I've studied the subject and talked to rape victims, quite a few of them actually.
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Besides how do you know I don't know anything about it? Because you say so? Nice backing.
Anyone who knows anything about rape wouldn't start off a sentence with "If rape is so traumatic...[/b].
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The one that makes you an expert on both domestic violence and rape. You scream for links and then post none or repeat the same one over and over.
I find it difficult to even approach explaining to someone that rape is very traumatic. It is akin to teaching someone that water is wet or that the earth is round when they have a dogmatic vehemence in believing that water is dry or that the earth is flat.
Merely saying "you have not been raped so you don't know" is foolish. I know bullets hurt when the enter the body; I've never been shot. I know having your entire family killed in a plane crash must feel horrible emotionally; my family is quite happy and healthy.
So how do I convince someone that rape is traumatic? I honestly don't know, but I will try...
The easiest would be this: The number of women who have been raped have you heard express their displeasure of it versus the number of raped women who have expressed their apathy or even enjoyment about it?
I don't think I'd be out of line in saying the percentages are likely 98%/2%. Would you disagree?
Granted, a nice chunk of my knowledge on the psychology of rape comes from my education that you seem eager to attack; quite blindly I might add. Couple that with knowing a rape victim or two and having participated in a few rape programs and I'd say I know a fair amount. I certainly know enough to know that it is a traumatic experience that has harsh and often lasting psychological effects.
You have yourself learned that rape is underreported, now if I thought you were capable of objectivity I would ask you to think about why rape is underreported and to apply what you learn from that mental exercise to why women might not go straight from the room they were raped to the police station. But having conversed with you at length on these matters I expect no such analysis from you.
Specific to the case, this girl certainly did go to the police within 24-48 hours, which is the normal time frame for rape victims (who actually report) to report the rape.
The psychology of the attacker in a rape situation is also important. First and foremost rape is about power. Evolutionary psychologists (like my beloved professor David M. Buss) will argue that it has more to do with propogation of the rapist's genes, but they claim that just about everything men do is for that reason.
An indication of rape being a power issue is Michelle Michaud, who was part of a two-person rape "team" with her boyfriend. She didn't consider herself lesbian nor did she have any gene-spreading motivation. A depressing,
My "favorite" book (a bit of a disturbing read) was The Rapist File. It has interviews with convicted rapists talking about their motivations and strategies. Again: disturbing.
But then again maybe you're right... maybe it's not such a bad thing after all. Hell, they probably like it.
Comments
Tasteless Kobe Bryant joke:
The first 8 inches were consensual. It was the other 4 that were rape.
Originally posted by groverat
trumptman:
He said "you guys know me." referring to his crafted image. At worst it was a lie of omission. He's still not trustworthy because the image he created was a lie, he is just like the rest of the unfaithful NBA crowd.
Who is hiding what? Spouting off about crap you don't understand again.
Those types of things can easily be locked from the public, that doesn't mean they are locked from the court. Unless you think you're the judge.
I'd have to hear the case.
You're going to have to back these things up.
That's not reasonable?
You must have a blind spot in your vision.
LOS ANGELES (AP) -- Speaking publicly for the first time since he was accused of sexual assault, Kobe Bryant denied the allegations and said he "would never do something like that."
"When everything comes clean, it will all be fine, you'll see," Bryant, 24, told the Los Angeles Times in a story published Sunday.
The five-time NBA All-Star would not discuss details of the case, the newspaper said.
"You guys know me. I shouldn't have to say anything. You know I would never do something like that," the Los Angeles Lakers star said in the brief telephone interview.
It says he denied the charges. There is paraphrasing and select quotes, but it says he denied them. Just because the article isn't the raw transcript of what was said doesn't mean it is wrong or unclear. Do you think those select quotes were the only thing he said?
As for the hiding, I didn't say it would be a mistrial if it were kept from the the public. It has to be given to the defense or it would be a mistrial.
However if just two months prior she was hospitalized as a danger to herself with regard to suicide not once but twice, it can show a pattern of mental instability. Those 911 calls could corroborate that. Having incomplete information is one thing. Having the information and hiding it is another and could be grounds for a mistrial.
The "public" won't be corroborating patterns. The prosecution and defense will. Sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
The case is here and it involves two boys. The first is clearly rape in my book, but the second, involves "the minor" John T.
John T.
Please understand that I'm not saying John T. is a great guy or anything. I believe that even while the rape was contested he was found guilty sexual battery. It is the decision itself that is scary. It says that a woman ambigiously removing consent during the act makes you a rapist. No force, nor even duress. If you are fondling her a certain way during the act and she says "No, not there," or "we might get caught," you could end up being charged with rape.
As for the that's not reasonable, no it's not. No one male, or female, should lose their job over telling a joke.
Nick
P.S. - The infamous lost post
The theoretical isn't a science experiment with an unknown answer. The law clearly states what is and isn't permissable. I suppose if I said that if you plotted to kill your mother and then did so with a gun, it would be "theoretical" that they would charge you with first degree murder.
And you would be reprimanded/fired for trying to decipher a co-worker's displayed tattoo?
As I mentioned it isn't about sex in instances like this. It has become thought control and speech control. In the case mentioned the whole case started because one worker complained of grafitti in portable toilets.
I see nothing at all of thought control, nothing. Speech control, yes, but in a private enterprise that is 100% acceptable.
As for the hiding, I didn't say it would be a mistrial if it were kept from the the public. It has to be given to the defense or it would be a mistrial.
And there is absolutely nothing indicating that the defense will have access to all pertinent evidence. If the court decides it is more prejudicial than probative, then it won't be in the trial.
As for the that's not reasonable, no it's not. No one male, or female, should lose their job over telling a joke.
If they have been reprimanded/written up/warned before about such behavior, then absolutely they should. And I would very confidently say there are "jokes" that would warrant immediate termination.
Thanks for the link to StartSurfingPlus 2.0!
I gotta go means no
I gotta go means no 2
Nick
fixed links
-applenut
Detectives were originally presented an affidavit signed by the victim stating that the intercourse was consensual, though the woman later said she was tricked into signing it and still wished to pursue the case.
Mystikal charged with rape
Whether he is right or wrong the point is you could have a piece of paper with the woman's signature on it agreeing to consent and if she laters says it isn't you can STILL be charged with rape.
Nick
Whether he is right or wrong the point is you could have a piece of paper with the woman's signature on it agreeing to consent and if she laters says it isn't you can STILL be charged with rape.
Your simplistic interpretations of legal matters continue their frustrating reign.
If she signed the "piece of paper" under false pretense or undue pressure it is compromised.
"What do you mean 'not-guilty'!? I don't care about the video and 12 credible eye-witnesses showing the defendant in a different state at the exact time of the crime, he signed a confession! Sure I put a gun in his mouth and screamed that I would kill him if he didn't sign it, he signed a piece of paper!"
Originally posted by groverat
trumptman:
Your simplistic interpretations of legal matters continue their frustrating reign.
If she signed the "piece of paper" under false pretense or undue pressure it is compromised.
"What do you mean 'not-guilty'!? I don't care about the video and 12 credible eye-witnesses showing the defendant in a different state at the exact time of the crime, he signed a confession! Sure I put a gun in his mouth and screamed that I would kill him if he didn't sign it, he signed a piece of paper!"
Yeah try that line with your local auto dealer.
The point which you miss and also exaggerate, is that there is no reasonable manner under which a man can prove he had consent without it being doubted. The issue with most crimes is innocence until guilt is proven. With a rape accusation if this were true then they would have to prove the man DIDNT have consent instead of him proving he does.
That is what I was getting at with the Michael Irvin thing as well. It is the dangerous thing about rape being about consent with only the woman being credible and capable of giving consent.
What can clearly prove consent? Instead of me guessing around it, tell me. She said yes. Well according to the California Supreme Court saying you've got to get home(not no) is withdrawel of consent. Having a signed letter doesn't insure consent. Having her say yes, but she's remorseful and declares herself to drunk to have given consent. (Again try that with drunk driving)
How can a man prove his innocence, something he shouldn't have to do, the state should have to prove his guilt, when only one party controls all the variables?
Nick
Someone here mentioned this...
A prosecutor will take plenty of cases if it improves their political prospects, gives them face time on television, grows their budget, etc. They are human and have human motivations. Watch any competitive race for district attorney in an urban area and you will see the true nature of their job.
Oh wait...that was me....
And now we get this...
DA gets more dough...
Select quote..
Prosecutors handling Kobe Bryant's sexual assault case won a request for additional money Tuesday, securing $105,000 from county commissioners and the possibility of more.
The aid could be increased again based on District Attorney Mark Hurlbert's needs, Eagle County commissioners said. Other counties in the judicial district could be asked to contribute to Hurlbert's $2 million budget, county finance director Mike Roeper said.
Mo money...mo cash...gimme gimme gimme...
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Mo money...mo cash...gimme gimme gimme...
That money probably has nothing to do with his salary - it's just money to prosecute the case. I wonder how much Kobe will spend...
Originally posted by BRussell
That money probably has nothing to do with his salary - it's just money to prosecute the case. I wonder how much Kobe will spend...
I didn't say it was going to his salary. It could grow his office which in turn helps his political asperations. As for what Kobe will spend, I'm sure it will be far less than this woman will attempt to sue him and her employer for.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
I didn't say it was going to his salary. It could grow his office which in turn helps his political asperations.
Well I'm sure that refusing to prosecute a rape case wouldn't have done much for his political career.
As for what Kobe will spend, I'm sure it will be far less than this woman will attempt to sue him and her employer for.
Is there any evidence of that, or are you just making it up? In any case, I think it's great that you're such an advocate for rights of the accused.
Originally posted by BRussell
Well I'm sure that refusing to prosecute a rape case wouldn't have done much for his political career.Is there any evidence of that, or are you just making it up? In any case, I think it's great that you're such an advocate for rights of the accused.
I assure you that there are folks accused that I would not be an advocate for. However this just makes no sense. It would be way to easy for a Kobe type to get ten of these ladies a night. It makes no sense that he would force himself on her. We are often told that rape isn't about sex, it is about control. I just don't see how this guy is grasping at straws to get control. He literally has it all and has it all under control.
Having been in entertainment, I have seen the screwballs, stalkers and groupies. I don't know if this woman is one or not, but I don't lump those with multiple suicide attempts or even one suicide attempt as mentally strong.
She went the next morning, likely reported it out of spite and has watched the thing blow out of control.
I've watched others try to explain these gaps in reporting in the past and to me it almost always smells. I have had items stolen and even been mugged at knife point with an absolute fear that I was going to die right then. (Knife to front/side of neck does that) When I was out of that situation I called the cops ASAP.
If rape is so tramatic drive straight to the hospital, call the cops straight from there. Heck I'm a guy and I were raped by some strong male dude with a penchant for virgin butthole I'd be hitting the cell phone/pay phone/whatever as soon as I could. I wouldn't go home and wait until the next morning.
Nick
The point which you miss and also exaggerate, is that there is no reasonable manner under which a man can prove he had consent without it being doubted. The issue with most crimes is innocence until guilt is proven. With a rape accusation if this were true then they would have to prove the man DIDNT have consent instead of him proving he does.
In rape cases they usually prove resistance, which would most certainly be proving he didn't have consent. You state that the accused must prove consent in a rape case, this is not true.
victim attitude
That is what I was getting at with the Michael Irvin thing as well. It is the dangerous thing about rape being about consent with only the woman being credible and capable of giving consent.
And Irvin was cleared of all charges and the woman went to jail.
What can clearly prove consent? Instead of me guessing around it, tell me. She said yes. Well according to the California Supreme Court saying you've got to get home(not no) is withdrawel of consent.
Depends on the context. We know almost nothing else about that case.
Having a signed letter doesn't insure consent.
Not in all cases, no.
If what she was signing was misrepresented to her why should she be bound by it?
Having her say yes, but she's remorseful and declares herself to drunk to have given consent. (Again try that with drunk driving)
Where did this happen?
And past that, IMO, a girl can be intoxicated to a point she can't make a decision or give consent. Using your simplistic logic it would be perfectly legal to slip date-rape drugs left and right. "Well she didn't say no!"
How can a man prove his innocence, something he shouldn't have to do, the state should have to prove his guilt, when only one party controls all the variables?
What planet do you live on where he has to?
----------
BRussell:
Is there any evidence of that, or are you just making it up?
Who needs evidence? We all know how women are!
trumptman:
It would be way to easy for a Kobe type to get ten of these ladies a night. It makes no sense that he would force himself on her.
Sounds like someone is trying to live his fantasies out through athletes. You sure do watch a lot of television and movies, trumptman, you seem to live in a world of black and white absolutes, where categories of people are solid and definite.
It makes no sense to you that maybe there are women who don't want to have sex with Kobe Bryant a few hours (?) after meeting him? Only your dear wife and sainted mother, the only non-dirty-greedy-whores on planet, earth would refuse his advances. Excellent thinking, Norman Bates.
"these ladies". Pathetic.
We are often told that rape isn't about sex, it is about control. I just don't see how this guy is grasping at straws to get control. He literally has it all and has it all under control.
He hangs out with this girl, thinks he's getting somewhere. In LA he surrounds himself with women who want to do what he does, but he's in a smaller town now with a girl not so sure of what she wants to do, maybe scared of the whole situation, too intense. But they're kissing and whatnot and Kobe wants sex and he's refused. He, Kobe Bryant, the man no-game whitemen across the nation say could get "ten of these ladies a night", wants some action and she refuses? Him? Kobe "3 rings" Bryant?
Nope, no way could there be a control and power issue! I'm sure that Kobe sneer belies nothing about his personality off the court. Because I read ESPN the Magazine and watched First Wives Club, he would never do anything like that.
Having been in entertainment, I have seen the screwballs, stalkers and groupies. I don't know if this woman is one or not, but I don't lump those with multiple suicide attempts or even one suicide attempt as mentally strong.
What would her mental strength have to do with this? Is she a liar? Has she been dishonest about anything that you know of?
She went the next morning, likely reported it out of spite and has watched the thing blow out of control.
If rape is so tramatic...
Ok... it's kind of difficult to get past this one and continue talking to you without raging personal attacks. I don't know how you could even start a sentence with the words "if rape is so traumatic". But unfortunately i do know, that's what makes it all so frustrating that in our lovely free country we allow anyone with the desire to hold forth in great length on subjects they don't know a damned thing about.
...drive straight to the hospital, call the cops straight from there. Heck I'm a guy and I were raped by some strong male dude with a penchant for virgin butthole I'd be hitting the cell phone/pay phone/whatever as soon as I could. I wouldn't go home and wait until the next morning.
That you know absolutely nothing of the psychology of rape is not surprising at all to me. That your victim attitude could blind you so thoroughly that you could, in one thread, discuss how underreported sexual assault is only to act as if the exact opposite is true and ignore the psychology behind it in another thread is no surprise to me. Your speech has nothing to do with being rational or even participating in a discussion, but merely pushing some line that you can't even defend.
Look at these run-ons you have made me type!
Originally posted by groverat
I missed this post at first. Unfortunately I saw it after I replied above.
trumptman:
Sounds like someone is trying to live his fantasies out through athletes. You sure do watch a lot of television and movies, trumptman, you seem to live in a world of black and white absolutes, where categories of people are solid and definite.
It makes no sense to you that maybe there are women who don't want to have sex with Kobe Bryant a few hours (?) after meeting him? Only your dear wife and sainted mother, the only non-dirty-greedy-whores on planet, earth would refuse his advances. Excellent thinking, Norman Bates.
"these ladies". Pathetic.
Look we get it, you disagree. You've posted nothing. You've cited nothing. We are speculating on he said, she said. You don't like my version of it and thus post your own. No sense being an insulting ass about it. You make generalizations about me and this discussion and then spend two pages pissing and moaning about it.
As for the atheletes and women thing. Yeah we never hear about groupies and women associated with atheletes. I'm not living THROUGH these guys. You see it just about anywhere. Play in a band for a while. Be a star athelete in something even in some shit-hole town. The numbers may change, the behavior doesn't. Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Nose...end of it... see beyond it. I suppose Michael Jordan was sued for palimony because his sperm was left on the toilet seat. I suppose Magic got aids from the kitchen sink. I suppose you take common knowledge and even common experience and dismiss it with the wonderful backing of grouchy Groverat says it ain't so.
He hangs out with this girl, thinks he's getting somewhere. In LA he surrounds himself with women who want to do what he does, but he's in a smaller town now with a girl not so sure of what she wants to do, maybe scared of the whole situation, too intense. But they're kissing and whatnot and Kobe wants sex and he's refused. He, Kobe Bryant, the man no-game whitemen across the nation say could get "ten of these ladies a night", wants some action and she refuses? Him? Kobe "3 rings" Bryant?
Oh I forgot your hypothetical is more valid because you burped it out your ass. She isn't so sure what she wants to do because... oh she's from a small town. Except that the small town is a ski resort that caters to the rich and famous so they aren't so naive about them.
I suppose she was wearing a daisy print dress, had a bow and was carrying her blue ribbon from the 4H club. Talk about victimizing someone. You con job is thick.
What would her mental strength have to do with this? Is she a liar? Has she been dishonest about anything that you know of?
Mental strength to me denotes mental stability she appears sketchy in that area. Has she been dishonest about anything that I know of? Who knows? She doesn't have to give her name or face the press. She can just make an accusation and watch the DA go get another $105k to try to prove it.
Ok... it's kind of difficult to get past this one and continue talking to you without raging personal attacks. I don't know how you could even start a sentence with the words "if rape is so traumatic". But unfortunately i do know, that's what makes it all so frustrating that in our lovely free country we allow anyone with the desire to hold forth in great length on subjects they don't know a damned thing about.
Yeah well you are welcome to share your personal rape experience Grove. Otherwise you are reading and drawing conclusions just like the rest of us.
Besides how do you know I don't know anything about it? Because you say so? Nice backing.
That you know absolutely nothing of the psychology of rape is not surprising at all to me. That your victim attitude could blind you so thoroughly that you could, in one thread, discuss how underreported sexual assault is only to act as if the exact opposite is true and ignore the psychology behind it in another thread is no surprise to me. Your speech has nothing to do with being rational or even participating in a discussion, but merely pushing some line that you can't even defend.
I know nothing based off... oh your opinion. Links, quotes, sources, anything? Underreported sexual assault. Oh I mentioned that from your pamphlet. The one that makes you an expert on both domestic violence and rape. You scream for links and then post none or repeat the same one over and over. You obvious have a he-man must protect feeble woman complex which you mask by trying to declare that you would treat them as equals. Take your counseling need elsewhere.
Nick
Look we get it, you disagree. You've posted nothing. You've cited nothing. We are speculating on he said, she said. You don't like my version of it and thus post your own. No sense being an insulting ass about it. You make generalizations about me and this discussion and then spend two pages pissing and moaning about it.
You said that she reported it the next morning likely out of spite. Do you have anything to back that up? Anything at all except some odd fear of women as a nefarious group?
As for the atheletes and women thing. Yeah we never hear about groupies and women associated with atheletes. I'm not living THROUGH these guys. You see it just about anywhere. Play in a band for a while. Be a star athelete in something even in some shit-hole town. The numbers may change, the behavior doesn't. Just because it doesn't happen to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Sure, there are groupies. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that this girl is one.
Of course, the girl who was falsely identified as the accuser was threatened and called a whore and worse across the country, but let's ignore that.
Oh I forgot your hypothetical is more valid because you burped it out your ass.
Mine was a hypothetical as well, but you'll notice I don't label Bryant a serial rapist or prick while the accuser is labelled a gold-digging whore. Note the difference. You said you said "I just don't see", so I gave you an alternative scenario, I never once said that's what happened. Keep tilting at windmills.
Also, Occam's Razor applies in the absence of full knowledge. False accusation generally get thrown out before they get this far. Does that mean Kobe raped her? No, but it does increase the chance that maybe she isn't lying.
She isn't so sure what she wants to do because... oh she's from a small town. Except that the small town is a ski resort that caters to the rich and famous so they aren't so naive about them.
Still doesn't compare to L.A. groupies who hang around the basketball team. I never said that's what she was like, it was a hypothetical and clearly so.
Mental strength to me denotes mental stability she appears sketchy in that area. Has she been dishonest about anything that I know of? Who knows? She doesn't have to give her name or face the press. She can just make an accusation and watch the DA go get another $105k to try to prove it.
All she did was "make an accusation"? Did you know she went to the hospital and was physically examined for signs of rape? Gold-digging whore probably raped herself, eh?
And that $105k thing you keep bringing up is just laughable. You're bringing a case against a guy with more money than God, you're going to have to have some funding yourself. Post a picture of the DA's new BMW before you start whining about stupid shit like that.
Yeah well you are welcome to share your personal rape experience Grove. Otherwise you are reading and drawing conclusions just like the rest of us.
I know about rape. I've studied the subject and talked to rape victims, quite a few of them actually.
Besides how do you know I don't know anything about it? Because you say so? Nice backing.
Anyone who knows anything about rape wouldn't start off a sentence with "If rape is so traumatic...[/b].
The one that makes you an expert on both domestic violence and rape. You scream for links and then post none or repeat the same one over and over.
I find it difficult to even approach explaining to someone that rape is very traumatic. It is akin to teaching someone that water is wet or that the earth is round when they have a dogmatic vehemence in believing that water is dry or that the earth is flat.
Merely saying "you have not been raped so you don't know" is foolish. I know bullets hurt when the enter the body; I've never been shot. I know having your entire family killed in a plane crash must feel horrible emotionally; my family is quite happy and healthy.
So how do I convince someone that rape is traumatic? I honestly don't know, but I will try...
The easiest would be this: The number of women who have been raped have you heard express their displeasure of it versus the number of raped women who have expressed their apathy or even enjoyment about it?
I don't think I'd be out of line in saying the percentages are likely 98%/2%. Would you disagree?
Granted, a nice chunk of my knowledge on the psychology of rape comes from my education that you seem eager to attack; quite blindly I might add. Couple that with knowing a rape victim or two and having participated in a few rape programs and I'd say I know a fair amount. I certainly know enough to know that it is a traumatic experience that has harsh and often lasting psychological effects.
You have yourself learned that rape is underreported, now if I thought you were capable of objectivity I would ask you to think about why rape is underreported and to apply what you learn from that mental exercise to why women might not go straight from the room they were raped to the police station. But having conversed with you at length on these matters I expect no such analysis from you.
Specific to the case, this girl certainly did go to the police within 24-48 hours, which is the normal time frame for rape victims (who actually report) to report the rape.
The psychology of the attacker in a rape situation is also important. First and foremost rape is about power. Evolutionary psychologists (like my beloved professor David M. Buss) will argue that it has more to do with propogation of the rapist's genes, but they claim that just about everything men do is for that reason.
An indication of rape being a power issue is Michelle Michaud, who was part of a two-person rape "team" with her boyfriend. She didn't consider herself lesbian nor did she have any gene-spreading motivation. A depressing,
My "favorite" book (a bit of a disturbing read) was The Rapist File. It has interviews with convicted rapists talking about their motivations and strategies. Again: disturbing.
But then again maybe you're right... maybe it's not such a bad thing after all. Hell, they probably like it.