Please, the next thing people will say is how much better G4 is better than any P4! Now that G5 is out maybe the "megahertz myth" myth will now be gone.
In any case, you cannot argue that Apple is priced like a PC - even Jobs cannot argue that. Case in point: check out http://www.techbargains.com/. Look for "400SC".
Do you even know what a 400SC is? Have fun doing anything even remotely graphic intensive on that.
Plus that price is without keyboard, without mouse, without an OS, without a modem, a 40GB HD, and so on.
The other issue is the hardware and software we selected on the 4600. I tried to make it as close as possible to the model I plan to purchase with a combo drive. This G5 sells for 1799 dollars, not 1999.
-Snip-
Uh,$1799 ???
That's from the apple store.
Taking the most expensive Dell and trimming it down to the power of the 1.6G5 is a lot more expensive then taking the model similar in performance to the 1.6G5 and working from there. But there is no reason to do it that way unless you are trying to inflate the price...
He said he configured it with a combo drive. Price: $1,799.
Read dammit!
oops: actually it is reread (I compared the Dell to the $1,799 in my earlier post). I was configuring the Dell with a Super drive, you save another $100 if you only put in a combo drive.
Remember, I'm not saying Mac are bad, all I'm saying is that except for the Dual 2GHz G5, the hardware cost of PCs are a lot less then Macs -- it is the price that we pay for a better OS.
oops: actually it is reread (I compared the Dell to the $1,799 in my earlier post). I was configuring the Dell with a Super drive, you save another $100 if you only put in a combo drive.
Remember, I'm not saying Mac are bad, all I'm saying is that except for the Dual 2GHz G5, the hardware cost of PCs are a lot less then Macs -- it is the price that we pay for a better OS.
I'm sorry if this sound harsh but, I am sick of hearing you people try to compare apples with PC oranges.
I have been a PC tech for 10 years now and I will tell you that PC's are crap!!! I love it because it keeps me in the big money. I hope that people keep buying them.
Each component is designed by a different company adhearing to different standards. Try to get any of them to admit that their piece is the problem! MS says it is dell, dell says its Nvidia Nvidia says its the motherboard maker, so on and on... Meanwhile, you have spent hours just to find a solution. Oh and you don't get the best parts just the cheapest they can get. I used to love compaq's, remember those. I will admit that Dell is one of the best PC's but I am not sure that says much.
Upgrades are a riot! Consider yourself lucky to pop in a component and actually have it work. It's a crap shoot. Same with upgrading an OS, what a joke! I installed XP on an 800mhz PIII and it took 4 hours to install just the os! 4 HOURS! Luckily it was just a project for me, but man that would have been a great payday!
Let's not even go into the whole stability issue. A PC can't even play in this arena. My kids have an Old Quadra 630 running OS8 and a 800mhz Gateway running 98. The mac has been running for a year allmost and has not hickuped. I hear "daddy the computer is froze" so much with the PC that I scrapped it. I have loaded 98 at least 4 or was it 5 times on the PC. They prefer the mac, 'nouf said.
I decided to switch because I could not buy a PC that would run for more than 3 months without problems and decided to see what apple could do.
I bought a new Flatpanel iMac when they first were introduced. It has run day and night since and has not lost one bit of data or frozen. Spend as much money on a dell as you like you can't match that.
With the indroduction of OS X the Apple is by far the best platform for just about anything, IMHO.
I'm sorry if this sound harsh but, I am sick of hearing you people try to compare apples with PC oranges.
-Snip-
With the indroduction of OS X the Apple is by far the best platform for just about anything, IMHO.
OS X is the best OS out there, and Apple uses top quality parts. That's why it is worthwhile spending extra money to buy one. I did not say that PCs are better, I just said that when matching approximate computing power, PC's are cheaper then the Macs until you get to the Dual 2GHz G5 (which I think will probably beat the PC workstations in the price/performance equation).
OS X is the best OS out there, and Apple uses top quality parts. That's why it is worthwhile spending extra money to buy one. I did not say that PCs are better, I just said that when matching approximate computing power, PC's are cheaper then the Macs until you get to the Dual 2GHz G5 (which I think will probably beat the PC workstations in the price/performance equation).
Sorry not really attacking you just trying set the record straight.
So far I am not impressed by any of the examples. We may wish to be unbiased, but I don't believe we can be if we select one of the cheapest models that Dell makes to compare with a Power Mac G5. Neither the Dimension 4600 or OptiPlex GX 270 measure up to the standards of these new Apple workstations. Two computers are not alike just based on processor speed and the specs of a few other components.
However, it is not just Mac users who are willing to pay more for better hardware. Dell sells computers, with no better specs, for hundreds of dollars more. People must be buying them or Dell would not keep them in their product line. I ran a comparison with another Dell that sells for 2134 dollars and it is not as good, spec wise, as the 1799 dollar 1.6 GHz G5 I plan to buy. The case has more room, but I'd bet its is not built as well.
It is a Precision 650 with a single 2.4 GHz Xeon processor with 512 K cache. It has 256 MB of DDR 266 RAM (slower), an 80 GB ATA 100 hard drive (no serial ATA), a combo optical drive, a 64 MB Graphics card with dual monitor support, no FireWire, no digital audio. In its favor, Dell gives a 3 year warranty and it has a floppy. There must be some reason that Windows users would buy this unit rather than a Dimension 4600 or OptiPlex GX 270. If everyone just looked at specs, Dell would have dropped this model long ago.
I've been a Dell (and Apple) customer for years and your assumptions are totally wrong. There is ZERO difference between the OptiPlex, Precision and Dimension computers IF they have the same specs. The only difference is they have different plastic cases and offer different kinds of PCI card options for business versus gamers and they use different marketing and pricing. THAT'S IT! Same quiet fans (usually NMB, or Datech), same quiet HDs (Seagate or WD), same quiet power supplies, same processors (Intel with HT and all the same FSB), same exact internal chassis but with different plastics. MANY Dell Gamers will buy any Dell Tower if the price is right regardless of the badge on it as they know it's the same machine inside. The business cases are usually different so that they have a more conservative look. The only ones that are that different are the huge Precision cases (like the XPS which is branded Dimension) and of course the servers.
Power for Power, feature for feature, spec for spec, these two machines are practically identical (with Dell offering a bit more with their components and warranty). However, one is in a cheap and so-so designed but tool-less and easy access plastic box while the other is in a beautiful, well made, well thought out aluminum chassis. There's your price difference. Apple's premium covers their huge R&D, their gorgeous design, and a much more innovative case and internal design. However, this thread is about 'G5 priced like a Dell' not 'Rational as to why Apple charges so much more for their hardware'. If the G5 WERE priced like a Dell, then there would be a headless iMac with the same low-end G5 specs selling for about $1300.
There is really nothing else to argue about here and I don't know why people just can't admit that Apple's hardware is overpriced. It has to be. They don't sell as many units as Dell and they need those high margins to be in the black. I am one of those people who pay the premium for their hardware since it looks good and I love OS X. I also buy Dell PCs since they are stable, decent to look at, offer hordes of options, has excellent warranty policies with exceptional performance. But to say they are the same in terms of pricing is completely absurd.
Most of the performance analyses have been about the 1.6, and we all recognized from the beginning that the 1.6 would be the black sheep of the family. Perhaps the 1.8 will fare better?
Spend as much money on a dell as you like you can't match that.
With the indroduction of OS X the Apple is by far the best platform for just about anything, IMHO.
Hear, hear! I was gonna mentionn that all the harware comparisons in the world are always gonna be flawed because Apple is more than just the hardware provider: it is a total, integrated system provider. And a first rate one at that. All of their hardware and software works together, flawlessly. You gotta rekon tha that is worth AT LEAST another $500 - $1000! And that is without factoring in all the iApps and other goodies that also work seamlessly together. Did I mention iChatAV, iTunes, etc. etc. You cant buy such integration or performance for Windows, even if you had $50 billion in the bank (just look at Microsoft!). I mean, processor performance aside, I rekon I can work about 300 - 400 % faster on my OSX Mac than on my WindowsXP PC because the system is stable and works seamlessly. And thats without taking into consideration all the reboots and crashes you get with Windows. So not only is the G5 gonna be on a par chip performance/speed wise with anything Intel have - but it is going to be consistenly so. What is the point of having a fast race car if you have to push start it or fix a puncture every five minutes?
I saw a reference to MacDonalds somewhere today and I think it is a good example for the Dell lovies. For $10 I am sure that MD's will appear to give you a whole load more food than a proper restaurant, but when you look deeper you are basically buying crap. Dells sells crap.
The 4600 is a much better buy. I kept the basic XP home addition and went with WordPerfect® Office11 (WordPerfect, Quattro pro, Presentations) and added Dell Movie Studio Essentials. Dell did not list one, but You can buy a PCI FireWire for under $20.00, and if you really want serial ATA for some reason you can get a card for $50.00. That would rase the cost to $1406.00 -- still way cheaper then the stock 1.6GHz G5.
To compare to OS X you need XP Pro. But what about total cost of ownership? Viruses, problems, ooh-ooh.
now compare the Dual 2Ghz model with a Dell Xeon model... the dell will have less features and will be priced almost $2000 more
Exsactly -- the Dual 2Ghz G5 is by far the best deal in the whole Apple line up, and I can hardly wait until there shipping. They should really out pace the PCs on price/performance.
To compare to OS X you need XP Pro. But what about total cost of ownership? Viruses, problems, ooh-ooh.
If every three months there is a problem and the fastest and best way to solve it is to FFR (fdisk, format, re-install) and then spend days if not weeks getting it all back, you really don't have what I consider a computer. You have a BABY and your are the Babysitter!
I never see any of you 'comparers' calculating that into your speed comparisons! How about the time it takes to update and scan for viruses, or locate that driver on the internet for that new peice of whatever that doesn't work with your version of windows. Or wait, I LOVE THIS ONE, when you install a game and it trashes everything and you have to FFR AGAIN. Or when you run NSW and it screws it all up again and of course the best way to fix it is to, YOU GUESSED IT, FFR! Try to get any help from MS tech support, that should waste day of your time. I love the blue screen of death right in the middle of doing an important project because some scheduled task takes that momemt to crash your machine, thus damaging your data and of course windows.
Any way...
Speed is good if you can take it and be productive. Speed in a PC just makes it crash faster IMO. LOL
While you guys are reinstalling and updating I will be plugging away on my "slow" FP iMac. Which, by the way is plenty fast and I have not seen much it can't handle.
I bet you guys speed all the way up to the next red light in traffic and get mad at anyone who is going a little slower to conserve gas. You know you do...
. . . However, this thread is about 'G5 priced like a Dell' not 'Rational as to why Apple charges so much more for their hardware'. If the G5 WERE priced like a Dell, then there would be a headless iMac with the same low-end G5 specs selling for about $1300. . .
. . . to say they are the same in terms of pricing is completely absurd.
I see your point. The topic should have been, 'The G5 is Priced Like Some Dells.' My first and last comparisons are still valid, showing you 'can' spend just as much and even more for a Dell with the performance and features of a 1.6 GHz G5 Power Mac. Yet, I'll take your word for it that few Dell customers buy a Precision or XPS case if there is another choice. Most go for the cheapest model Dell with the performance and features they want.
That leads us to why so many believe the dual 2 GHz G5 is such a great value. You cannot buy a cheap Dell that matches its performance. You must buy the more costly Dell Precision, which makes the dual 2 GHz G5 look like a real bargain. Since the low end G5 can be matched by a cheap model Dell, it is underrated in my opinion.
I believe all G5s are good values if you appreciate the craftsmanship of this hardware, the quality of its electrical and mechanical design and its refined and tasteful styling. Also, this case cost more than one built of plastic and stamped steel. Maybe I would be as satisfied with simpler, cheaper hardware at a lower price, but since Apple does not make a consumer tower yet, I'll enjoy the luxury of this fine hardware at a few hundred dollars more.
Comments
Originally posted by klinux
Please, the next thing people will say is how much better G4 is better than any P4! Now that G5 is out maybe the "megahertz myth" myth will now be gone.
In any case, you cannot argue that Apple is priced like a PC - even Jobs cannot argue that. Case in point: check out http://www.techbargains.com/. Look for "400SC".
Do you even know what a 400SC is? Have fun doing anything even remotely graphic intensive on that.
Plus that price is without keyboard, without mouse, without an OS, without a modem, a 40GB HD, and so on.
You can get the Dell tomorrow.
Originally posted by snoopy
-Snip-
The other issue is the hardware and software we selected on the 4600. I tried to make it as close as possible to the model I plan to purchase with a combo drive. This G5 sells for 1799 dollars, not 1999.
-Snip-
Uh,$1799 ???
That's from the apple store.
Taking the most expensive Dell and trimming it down to the power of the 1.6G5 is a lot more expensive then taking the model similar in performance to the 1.6G5 and working from there. But there is no reason to do it that way unless you are trying to inflate the price...
Originally posted by Res
Uh,$1799 ???
He said he configured it with a combo drive. Price: $1,799.
Read dammit!
Originally posted by JLL
He said he configured it with a combo drive. Price: $1,799.
Read dammit!
oops: actually it is reread (I compared the Dell to the $1,799 in my earlier post). I was configuring the Dell with a Super drive, you save another $100 if you only put in a combo drive.
Remember, I'm not saying Mac are bad, all I'm saying is that except for the Dual 2GHz G5, the hardware cost of PCs are a lot less then Macs -- it is the price that we pay for a better OS.
Originally posted by Res
oops: actually it is reread (I compared the Dell to the $1,799 in my earlier post). I was configuring the Dell with a Super drive, you save another $100 if you only put in a combo drive.
Remember, I'm not saying Mac are bad, all I'm saying is that except for the Dual 2GHz G5, the hardware cost of PCs are a lot less then Macs -- it is the price that we pay for a better OS.
I'm sorry if this sound harsh but, I am sick of hearing you people try to compare apples with PC oranges.
I have been a PC tech for 10 years now and I will tell you that PC's are crap!!! I love it because it keeps me in the big money. I hope that people keep buying them.
Each component is designed by a different company adhearing to different standards. Try to get any of them to admit that their piece is the problem! MS says it is dell, dell says its Nvidia Nvidia says its the motherboard maker, so on and on... Meanwhile, you have spent hours just to find a solution. Oh and you don't get the best parts just the cheapest they can get. I used to love compaq's, remember those. I will admit that Dell is one of the best PC's but I am not sure that says much.
Upgrades are a riot! Consider yourself lucky to pop in a component and actually have it work. It's a crap shoot. Same with upgrading an OS, what a joke! I installed XP on an 800mhz PIII and it took 4 hours to install just the os! 4 HOURS! Luckily it was just a project for me, but man that would have been a great payday!
Let's not even go into the whole stability issue. A PC can't even play in this arena. My kids have an Old Quadra 630 running OS8 and a 800mhz Gateway running 98. The mac has been running for a year allmost and has not hickuped. I hear "daddy the computer is froze" so much with the PC that I scrapped it. I have loaded 98 at least 4 or was it 5 times on the PC. They prefer the mac, 'nouf said.
I decided to switch because I could not buy a PC that would run for more than 3 months without problems and decided to see what apple could do.
I bought a new Flatpanel iMac when they first were introduced. It has run day and night since and has not lost one bit of data or frozen. Spend as much money on a dell as you like you can't match that.
With the indroduction of OS X the Apple is by far the best platform for just about anything, IMHO.
Originally posted by NaplesX
I'm sorry if this sound harsh but, I am sick of hearing you people try to compare apples with PC oranges.
-Snip-
With the indroduction of OS X the Apple is by far the best platform for just about anything, IMHO.
OS X is the best OS out there, and Apple uses top quality parts. That's why it is worthwhile spending extra money to buy one. I did not say that PCs are better, I just said that when matching approximate computing power, PC's are cheaper then the Macs until you get to the Dual 2GHz G5 (which I think will probably beat the PC workstations in the price/performance equation).
Originally posted by Res
OS X is the best OS out there, and Apple uses top quality parts. That's why it is worthwhile spending extra money to buy one. I did not say that PCs are better, I just said that when matching approximate computing power, PC's are cheaper then the Macs until you get to the Dual 2GHz G5 (which I think will probably beat the PC workstations in the price/performance equation).
Sorry not really attacking you just trying set the record straight.
Sorry for the tone.
However, it is not just Mac users who are willing to pay more for better hardware. Dell sells computers, with no better specs, for hundreds of dollars more. People must be buying them or Dell would not keep them in their product line. I ran a comparison with another Dell that sells for 2134 dollars and it is not as good, spec wise, as the 1799 dollar 1.6 GHz G5 I plan to buy. The case has more room, but I'd bet its is not built as well.
It is a Precision 650 with a single 2.4 GHz Xeon processor with 512 K cache. It has 256 MB of DDR 266 RAM (slower), an 80 GB ATA 100 hard drive (no serial ATA), a combo optical drive, a 64 MB Graphics card with dual monitor support, no FireWire, no digital audio. In its favor, Dell gives a 3 year warranty and it has a floppy. There must be some reason that Windows users would buy this unit rather than a Dimension 4600 or OptiPlex GX 270. If everyone just looked at specs, Dell would have dropped this model long ago.
Power for Power, feature for feature, spec for spec, these two machines are practically identical (with Dell offering a bit more with their components and warranty). However, one is in a cheap and so-so designed but tool-less and easy access plastic box while the other is in a beautiful, well made, well thought out aluminum chassis. There's your price difference. Apple's premium covers their huge R&D, their gorgeous design, and a much more innovative case and internal design. However, this thread is about 'G5 priced like a Dell' not 'Rational as to why Apple charges so much more for their hardware'. If the G5 WERE priced like a Dell, then there would be a headless iMac with the same low-end G5 specs selling for about $1300.
There is really nothing else to argue about here and I don't know why people just can't admit that Apple's hardware is overpriced. It has to be. They don't sell as many units as Dell and they need those high margins to be in the black. I am one of those people who pay the premium for their hardware since it looks good and I love OS X. I also buy Dell PCs since they are stable, decent to look at, offer hordes of options, has excellent warranty policies with exceptional performance. But to say they are the same in terms of pricing is completely absurd.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Spend as much money on a dell as you like you can't match that.
With the indroduction of OS X the Apple is by far the best platform for just about anything, IMHO.
Hear, hear! I was gonna mentionn that all the harware comparisons in the world are always gonna be flawed because Apple is more than just the hardware provider: it is a total, integrated system provider. And a first rate one at that. All of their hardware and software works together, flawlessly. You gotta rekon tha that is worth AT LEAST another $500 - $1000! And that is without factoring in all the iApps and other goodies that also work seamlessly together. Did I mention iChatAV, iTunes, etc. etc. You cant buy such integration or performance for Windows, even if you had $50 billion in the bank (just look at Microsoft!). I mean, processor performance aside, I rekon I can work about 300 - 400 % faster on my OSX Mac than on my WindowsXP PC because the system is stable and works seamlessly. And thats without taking into consideration all the reboots and crashes you get with Windows. So not only is the G5 gonna be on a par chip performance/speed wise with anything Intel have - but it is going to be consistenly so. What is the point of having a fast race car if you have to push start it or fix a puncture every five minutes?
I saw a reference to MacDonalds somewhere today and I think it is a good example for the Dell lovies. For $10 I am sure that MD's will appear to give you a whole load more food than a proper restaurant, but when you look deeper you are basically buying crap. Dells sells crap.
/rant off.
Originally posted by Res
The 4600 is a much better buy. I kept the basic XP home addition and went with WordPerfect® Office11 (WordPerfect, Quattro pro, Presentations) and added Dell Movie Studio Essentials. Dell did not list one, but You can buy a PCI FireWire for under $20.00, and if you really want serial ATA for some reason you can get a card for $50.00. That would rase the cost to $1406.00 -- still way cheaper then the stock 1.6GHz G5.
To compare to OS X you need XP Pro. But what about total cost of ownership? Viruses, problems, ooh-ooh.
Originally posted by MacUsers
now compare the Dual 2Ghz model with a Dell Xeon model... the dell will have less features and will be priced almost $2000 more
Exsactly -- the Dual 2Ghz G5 is by far the best deal in the whole Apple line up, and I can hardly wait until there shipping. They should really out pace the PCs on price/performance.
Originally posted by ryaxnb
To compare to OS X you need XP Pro. But what about total cost of ownership? Viruses, problems, ooh-ooh.
If every three months there is a problem and the fastest and best way to solve it is to FFR (fdisk, format, re-install) and then spend days if not weeks getting it all back, you really don't have what I consider a computer. You have a BABY and your are the Babysitter!
I never see any of you 'comparers' calculating that into your speed comparisons! How about the time it takes to update and scan for viruses, or locate that driver on the internet for that new peice of whatever that doesn't work with your version of windows. Or wait, I LOVE THIS ONE, when you install a game and it trashes everything and you have to FFR AGAIN. Or when you run NSW and it screws it all up again and of course the best way to fix it is to, YOU GUESSED IT, FFR! Try to get any help from MS tech support, that should waste day of your time. I love the blue screen of death right in the middle of doing an important project because some scheduled task takes that momemt to crash your machine, thus damaging your data and of course windows.
Any way...
Speed is good if you can take it and be productive. Speed in a PC just makes it crash faster IMO. LOL
While you guys are reinstalling and updating I will be plugging away on my "slow" FP iMac. Which, by the way is plenty fast and I have not seen much it can't handle.
I bet you guys speed all the way up to the next red light in traffic and get mad at anyone who is going a little slower to conserve gas. You know you do...
Originally posted by Patchouli
. . . However, this thread is about 'G5 priced like a Dell' not 'Rational as to why Apple charges so much more for their hardware'. If the G5 WERE priced like a Dell, then there would be a headless iMac with the same low-end G5 specs selling for about $1300. . .
. . . to say they are the same in terms of pricing is completely absurd.
I see your point. The topic should have been, 'The G5 is Priced Like Some Dells.' My first and last comparisons are still valid, showing you 'can' spend just as much and even more for a Dell with the performance and features of a 1.6 GHz G5 Power Mac. Yet, I'll take your word for it that few Dell customers buy a Precision or XPS case if there is another choice. Most go for the cheapest model Dell with the performance and features they want.
That leads us to why so many believe the dual 2 GHz G5 is such a great value. You cannot buy a cheap Dell that matches its performance. You must buy the more costly Dell Precision, which makes the dual 2 GHz G5 look like a real bargain. Since the low end G5 can be matched by a cheap model Dell, it is underrated in my opinion.
I believe all G5s are good values if you appreciate the craftsmanship of this hardware, the quality of its electrical and mechanical design and its refined and tasteful styling. Also, this case cost more than one built of plastic and stamped steel. Maybe I would be as satisfied with simpler, cheaper hardware at a lower price, but since Apple does not make a consumer tower yet, I'll enjoy the luxury of this fine hardware at a few hundred dollars more.
Barto
Originally posted by Barto
Personally, I don't see the validity of comparing what is essentially a workstation for poor creative pros to a gamer's desktop.
Barto
I agree sun is definately out of this loop. lol