Apple engineers and designs just as few components as Dell or anybody else, and they certainly manufacture almost nothing themselves, it's all farmed out. The only components they use that are different from X86 ar the PPC chip and mobo/controller, everything else is industry standard, bought from a bin, stuff.
Apple engineers helped write the PPC spec, led the design of VMX, and have an active hand in the design of all the PowerPC processors they use. They are far more involved and expert integrators than other PC vendors. Look at their notebook designs, for one.
What does manufacturing have to do with design or integration, anyway?
Quote:
They assemble parts and go a bit further on case design than other vendors, but that's it. Dell, for instance, spends more than Apple on R&D. They just spend it in different areas (not support, that's not R&D)
They spend it developing ways to make manufacturing cheaper. I'd be surprised if 10% of Dell's R&D funds went into design or engineering.
Apple engineers and designs just as few components as Dell or anybody else, and they certainly manufacture almost nothing themselves, it's all farmed out. The only components they use that are different from X86 ar the PPC chip and mobo/controller, everything else is industry standard, bought from a bin, stuff.
They assemble parts and go a bit further on case design than other vendors, but that's it. Dell, for instance, spends more than Apple on R&D. They just spend it in different areas (not support, that's not R&D)
Though the "implementation" might not be, the "components" in your mac are cheap, get used to it.
OK Mr. Knowitall:
Go buy the parts new from a dealer and build me a an iMac, eMac, Powerbook, iBook, G4 Tower or any mac for that matter. Go buy a G5 motherboard. You Can't
I can however build you a virtually identical PC with parts from PCMall or Tiger Direct. As a matter of fact I probably can get an unbranded dell case from the OEM.
Yes industry standard stuff like HD's, CDROM, some video cards, USB, memory and the like work because apple has included them in the design.
Most stuff that is manufactured today is made primarily by subcontactors. And usually assembled by subcontractors.
Yes chips on the motherboard may be the same as some on a PC but that's about it. Yeah the individual chips are cheap, that means nothing.
Hehe, gotta love these annoying price comparisons. We all know Macs are more expensive off the bat than PCs. . .
I admitted that the topic was not well worded back in my last post on page one, and suggested the topic should have been, "The G5 is Priced Like Some Dells." That is, you can spend just as much and even more for a Dell with the performance and features of a 1.6 GHz G5 Power Mac. I gave examples of XPS and Precision models. However, it seems that few Dell customers buy a Precision or XPS case if there is another choice. From what most have been saying here, buyers go for the cheapest model Dell with the performance and features they want.
Read me again. I said the only parts that were different, not that Apple manufactured. PPC's are made for them, ie, bought from a bin, and so are controllers, except in the case of the new G5. Mobos are a question of laying out traces, and Gateway/IBM/Dell/HP-compaq all do this too. They get a lot of help from Intel/AMD, but so too does Apple get a lot of help from IBM (in the case of the G5) and such help as moto could give (G4)
R&D money is R&D money. It is NOT calculated on a per unit basis. You do R&D for a product, if you sell a lot of them, well, you recoup that cost faster and make more money, but you still spent what you spent on development. At the end of the day we're talking similar volumes in that the concerns of selling 10 million units are similar to those of selling 3 million.
Which leads me to Amorph's point, which is a good one, I agree that Dell probably spends a lot of time figuring how to make something that used to cost 25 cents, for 18 cents, and then spends even more time with all the little penny-weight examples that add up to dollars at the end of the day. I don't think that it's as high 90% of their R&D budget, but it's most likely the majority.
But don't forget that Dell also has a OS/Office license to pay, and Apple doesn't, ALL of Apple's R&D includes their software bundle. Dell already spends more, and when you add the weight of their licenses, the expenditure grows again. STill they deal in volume and I doubt that Windows costs them very much. We've been through it many times before opn this board and yes, Dell can simply build cheaper, by 30-100 bucks all told, varying by model. Fine, I've never argued that Apple should try to undercut their bottom end though, just that they hgave to be close. At the consumer desktop end, they aren't close at all. On laptops they are, or even come out ahead depending on your priorities, and on workstations (G5) Apple is also ahead, but iMacs and eMacs get spanked hard by the wintel competition.
Now getting back to the nature of R&D. One has to question whether Dell isn't on to something. Spend lotsa money to figure out how to do things cheaper. Apple spends lotsa money to figure out integration, and when you think that they're also getting an OS and iApps out of their expenditures, you have to conclude that Apple's R&D is marvelously efficient. See, it isn't all bad, not at all. Dell could learn something from Apple, but then again, Apple could learn something from Dell. Taking a few bucks from iMovie 4 to figure out how to get the same quality iMac chassis for less, or how to streamline assembly isn't a bad thing either.
Dell doesn't kill markets. Markets evolve or die. Dell does try to kill competitors, but all competitors try to do that in the areas where they compete. Just as Apple leads when it comes to integration, Dell leads when it comes to processes.
We commonly talk about people following Apple, we bitterly talk about people stealing from them, but we often ignore people following Dell, learning from them and availing themselves of advancements that they make in driving down costs.
Ironically, it's probably easier to look at iMovie and say, OK, we can add/copy this, this, and this than it is to look at a Dell and think, how did they build this to the same standard for so much less? It's easy to push the usual line about slave wages and huge volumes, but it's something more delicate than that.
If you want to use car analogies that matter, think of processes. How does Honda build a car that is the manufacturing equal of product from BMW or Mercedes? You might say, "Hey, that's easy, they sell many times more units and amortize the costs." I say OK, "But then why can't GM do it with anywhere near the same consistency, they sell yet again many more units than Honda?" ***
***Which is not to say that Apple or Dell equate to any of those car companies mentioned, just that a question of balance comes up, and rose colored glasses, or excuses about Apple's disadvantages don't help an understanding any better than my own slightly choleric vents.
1. No, Dell does not have any FW port. Adding a FW800/400 is not quite an upgrade.
2. Just pop in an 802.11g PCI card. Sure, it is not as easy as an solution but I am not debating that.
3. Indeed. If one needs that on Dell, buy an add-on card whose performance will beat that of any on-board solution of any vendor, Apple included.
4. I agree. However, Dell does have front-mounted USB 2.0 ports.
5. OS related point - already discussed.
Again, G5 is an excellent product, but items 1-3 does not cost $1000. Point still remains: G5 is not priced like Dell by any means.
Firewire: $40-50, ? ($70-80?) for FW 800
PCI 802.11g.
Optical $? ($18-25?)
Software: iPhoto $15 iTunes $10 IMovie $28 iDvd $25 iCal + Addr book $7 Mail $0.
Comes out about $145-$165 (without 802.11g, since G5 doesn't have it built-in eithier.) But the real point is, how many PCI slots are on that thing anyway? You use up 3 slots just making the Dell compare to the G5. Also, especially if you stock-order for business, who want's to open up the Dell's (annoying) case - on each machine you buy (say 30?) And you might even pay someone to do it... Up goes the price.
Read me again. I said the only parts that were different, not that Apple manufactured. PPC's are made for them, ie, bought from a bin, and so are controllers, except in the case of the new G5. Mobos are a question of laying out traces, and Gateway/IBM/Dell/HP-compaq all do this too. They get a lot of help from Intel/AMD, but so too does Apple get a lot of help from IBM (in the case of the G5) and such help as moto could give (G4)
I really think you are oversimplifying the whole thing. "Laying out traces"? What does that mean? Are you talking about the curcuit board?
Compaq and HP an IBM have motherboards made for them and some of Dell's are too. These motherboards are not that different than ones you can buy, they are usually changes to fit the case or so that it is propriatary. So they can charge 300$ for a part that fits them only. But the majority of motherboards are virtually identical to those on the
consumer market.
Anyway...
These convos are usually based on personal opinions and rarely on fact. I am not sure where you get your info, but common sense would and should dictate what makes sense.
Why are we comparing Dell with Apple? Dell has pretty much been a beige box parts pusher. I mean come on. Must PC builders have not really focused on innovation until prompted by some product like say the iMac. I would probably pick Sony as a better company to compare with. They have always been pretty innovative in the PC market.
Don't get me wrong, Dell seems to build quality stuff. As a technician/consultant I recommend Dell, if customers can't or won't go Apple.
I am no expert when it comes to engineering or designing computer components, however from what I have read x86 chips are a world apart from the PowerPC chips. That goes double for the newest 970. My point?
I can' t see a fair comparison between ithe two. There are just too many caviats.
The fact that there are so many discussions on this matter only prove to me that thay are competitive. This is by no meens suggesting equality.
The Intel platform minus Windows is pretty solid. The problem is this;
It is very difficult to seperate the OS form Apple computer hardware, they are like hand and glove, made for each other. OSX is a extremely advanced OS. If you could put an equivelent OS on the PC platform the comparison would be infinately more fair. Is their such a beast out their?
Enter the G5. Now again the comparisons come flowing in, most just speculation. Like I said before, wait until pantherGM and G5 meet. Then compare. But once again it is not a fair comparison because of the afore mentioned reasons.
From my experience, mac processors are equal to Intel processors running 2-3 times faster. This is due to very technical reasons, most of which have to do with efficiency of processor and cache. The Apple chips are more efficient. There is a video and web page in the apple site I think it is in the ADC section, that contains an explination. So please, I beg of you, don't use processor speed alone to measure performance. I feel it only higlights ignorance, no offence.
-Snip-
I'm not sure which processors you've been comparing, but for most tasks the G4 is roughly the equivalent of an Athlon XP -- about 20% faster than a P4 at any given clock rate. For a few tasks the SMID give it a nice boost, but a single 1GHz G4 does not compare well to a 2-3GHz P4.
Processor speed alone is never the way to judge the computer's performance. It is the processor, System bus, Video Card, and disk drive subsystem that determines how well the computer performs. That being said, PCs give you more power for your dollar than all of Apples offerings except the Dual 2GHz G5 (there is a reason that it is the most popular configuration).
Please, the next thing people will say is how much better G4 is better than any P4! Now that G5 is out maybe the "megahertz myth" myth will now be gone.
In any case, you cannot argue that Apple is priced like a PC - even Jobs cannot argue that. Case in point: check out http://www.techbargains.com/. Look for "400SC".
"This machine is a high end Intel 875P chipset board with 400/533/800Mhz Bus CPU support, dual channel DDR400 memory, AGP 8x video card slot, Gigabit Ethernet, Serial ATA interface."
Price? $299 after rebate with free shipping. Spec? "Celeron 2Ghz, 128MB DDR333 ECC/40GB 48x CD" Sure, the specs are not the same but for $2000, I am sure you can make up the difference in some other ways.
Apple products are superior. I expect (and do) pay a premium for it. But to try to argue it actually cost the same? I don't think so.
THe 400SC is not a very good comparison. Once you've customized it at dell and added in the other goodies to bring it up to par, it comes out more expensive then the Dimension 4600 or the OptiPlex.
That article is just a bunch of assertions aswell, not any more meaningful than the stuff that goes on here. As for "fairness" there's no such thing. A computer is immediately comparable to any other computer that does the same job and costs about the same, period. HW/SF issues, who has access to what parts, etc etc, DOES NOT MATTER! You don't feel the architecture, or whether the parts cost 4 bucks or 20 bucks. YOu interact with the finished product, how that product is made is the manufacturer's business. If they chose components or made certain platform decisions, then they live with the result, for better or worse, but it doesn't negate the comparability of said products. Do reviewers of vehicles say, hey this isn't bad for a natural gas or electric vehicle? Sometimes they do, but usually that's he death knell of said model because consumers do not make such allowances, nor should they. Consumers say, either this is a good car or it isn't, the best electric car, might be darned good "for an electric" but still a piece of crap as a car in general. So it is with computers.
No all this sounds very negative, do I have to fondle the collective mac ego everytime I post? Geeze. There's lotsa good stuff at Apple too, like laptops, like G5 workstations, like iApps and OSX, and iPods/iTMS. But there's that familiar price question too, and too many excuses when it comes to that, or unrealistically generous characterizations of the mythical "Dell manufacturing advantage"
Gimme a break, if Dell has some advantages, it's because they worked their asses off to get them, just like those advantages that Apple has -- OSX, iApps, iTMS, and superlative laptops reliability didn't just spring out of Jobs' muslei one morning, fully formed and ready for sale.
All I'm saying is that Apple can learn from the strengths of other companies in the same way that other companies learn from them, and that there's no need to mystify Apple's production process as an excuse for their prices. What one company can do, so can another.
That article is just a bunch of assertions aswell, not any more meaningful than the stuff that goes on here. As for "fairness" there's no such thing. A computer is immediately comparable to any other computer that does the same job and costs about the same, period. HW/SF issues, who has access to what parts, etc etc, DOES NOT MATTER! You don't feel the architecture, or whether the parts cost 4 bucks or 20 bucks. YOu interact with the finished product, how that product is made is the manufacturer's business. If they chose components or made certain platform decisions, then they live with the result, for better or worse, but it doesn't negate the comparability of said products. Do reviewers of vehicles say, hey this isn't bad for a natural gas or electric vehicle? Sometimes they do, but usually that's he death knell of said model because consumers do not make such allowances, nor should they. Consumers say, either this is a good car or it isn't, the best electric car, might be darned good "for an electric" but still a piece of crap as a car in general. So it is with computers.
No all this sounds very negative, do I have to fondle the collective mac ego everytime I post? Geeze. There's lotsa good stuff at Apple too, like laptops, like G5 workstations, like iApps and OSX, and iPods/iTMS. But there's that familiar price question too, and too many excuses when it comes to that, or unrealistically generous characterizations of the mythical "Dell manufacturing advantage"
Gimme a break, if Dell has some advantages, it's because they worked their asses off to get them, just like those advantages that Apple has -- OSX, iApps, iTMS, and superlative laptops reliability didn't just spring out of Jobs' muslei one morning, fully formed and ready for sale.
All I'm saying is that Apple can learn from the strengths of other companies in the same way that other companies learn from them, and that there's no need to mystify Apple's production process as an excuse for their prices. What one company can do, so can another.
This is Michael Dell. Right?
Hey Mike your computers are real good man. Relax.
You will come up with something that competes with Apple. Be patient. Keep trying.
THe 400SC is not a very good comparison. Once you've customized it at dell and added in the other goodies to bring it up to par, it comes out more expensive then the Dimension 4600 or the OptiPlex.
Customize it at Dell? Are you crazy? Do you get your RAM from Apple?
Customize it at Dell? Are you crazy? Do you get your RAM from Apple?
LOL, no. But it is still not a good buy. If you want to add everything in yourself you are much better off building a PC from scratch. If you want to buy a whole PC you would be much better served by the Dimension or OptiPlex models. As for me, I always build them myself and think that the Dells are way overpriced, but they are a much fairer comparison to Macs than homebuilt systems.
LOL, no. But it is still not a good buy. If you want to add everything in yourself you are much better off building a PC from scratch. If you want to buy a whole PC you would be much better served by the Dimension or OptiPlex models. As for me, I always build them myself and think that the Dells are way overpriced, but they are a much fairer comparison to Macs than homebuilt systems.
Personally, I used to like building my own as well because it was fun. Now my time is more valuable. Guess I am getting old!
Anyway, Dell overpriced? The consensus seems to be against you. Check FatWallet, Techbargains, or GotApex. Most people would say Dell's price is hard to beat if impossible. And this is against every PC vendor - Apple, Gateway, Compaq, etc - or even build your own.
Case in point: take my favorite whipping boy, the 400SC. An Intel i875P chipset motherboard got be, say $150? A Celly 2.0 (highly overclockable and stable to 3 ghz - if you are into that) is $70? 40 GB HD - say $40. We are already at $260 and you are not counting in an optical drive, RAM, power supply, a case, shipping, etc. There's also the time of putting it together! (BTW, now you also get a KB and mouse for the $299. I know, whoopity-f***ing-doo!) Also, don't forget the time of putting one together!
I would still put together my own PC for special purposes (HTPC? Car PC? SFF?) but if you want a no-frill machine, I'd say it's hard to beat Dell.
BTW, to keep this on topic (I am a stickler!), had this been a thread about eMac vs Dell, I probably would have kept out of this. PC vs Mac arguments seems to be what Mac users do here when they run out of things to talk about. But to say G5 is priced like a Dell? Nah....
You will come up with something that competes with Apple. Be patient. Keep trying.
HAHA
Unlike some, I wouldn't mind being either Jobs or Dell for a day or three. Probably have more fun as Dell though. What good is being a billionaire if you can't go out and eat some insanely expensive gourmet game meats? Seems a sin to be a vegetarian with so much cash at your culinary disposal.
Meh, anyway, unlike some I really think that it depends.Put it this way:
Let's say I'm in a situation to spend your money to buy myself a computer. No-brainer, I get myself a 17" PB and mebbe a dual 2Ghz G5 for the desk.
But, If I have to spend my money to put 12 desktops on my employees desks, I buy 12 Dell's and am perfectly happy to call it a day.
Since I have to spend my own money to buy my own computer, well, then I get myself a 12" PB (done) and a nice 17-19 TFT panel for my desk (coming) and enjoy mobile computing bliss.
Now, just you wait untill I climb a few more rungs of public service bureaucracy and get more access to your money!
The point of all this is that Dell and Apple are competitors and each makes better computers in certain segments than the other.
Unlike some, I wouldn't mind being either Jobs or Dell for a day or three. Probably have more fun as Dell though. What good is being a billionaire if you can't go out and eat some insanely expensive gourmet game meats? Seems a sin to be a vegetarian with so much cash at your culinary disposal.
Meh, anyway, unlike some I really think that it depends.Put it this way:
Let's say I'm in a situation to spend your money to buy myself a computer. No-brainer, I get myself a 17" PB and mebbe a dual 2Ghz G5 for the desk.
But, If I have to spend my money to put 12 desktops on my employees desks, I buy 12 Dell's and am perfectly happy to call it a day.
Since I have to spend my own money to buy my own computer, well, then I get myself a 12" PB (done) and a nice 17-19 TFT panel for my desk (coming) and enjoy mobile computing bliss.
Now, just you wait untill I climb a few more rungs of public service bureaucracy and get more access to your money!
The point of all this is that Dell and Apple are competitors and each makes better computers in certain segments than the other.
I can agree to most of that, just that chasing those PC when they break will cost you more over time than the mac, IMO. So cheaper upfront, but maybe not in the long run. once again IMO.
Other than that I go along with all of the above. Pretty funny stuff.
BTW, to keep this on topic (I am a stickler!), had this been a thread about eMac vs Dell, I probably would have kept out of this. PC vs Mac arguments seems to be what Mac users do here when they run out of things to talk about. But to say G5 is priced like a Dell? Nah....
That is axactly why i had to pipe up. Dell and Apple are two different kinds of campanies and with different clients, for the most part. I agree with you.
That article is just a bunch of assertions aswell, not any more meaningful than the stuff that goes on here.
Gimme a break, if Dell has some advantages, it's because they worked their asses off to get them, just like those advantages that Apple has
And your rant wasnt a bunch of asssertions? You must be crazy if you think Dell offers anything but crap - every person I know who owns one regerts it. You dont deserve a break.
. . . BTW, to keep this on topic (I am a stickler!), had this been a thread about eMac vs Dell, I probably would have kept out of this. PC vs Mac arguments seems to be what Mac users do here when they run out of things to talk about. But to say G5 is priced like a Dell? Nah....
Actually, I was not running out of things to do. I'm planning to get a 1.6 GHz G5 with a combo drive and out of curiosity compared it to Dell. I expected the Dell to be way cheaper. When it was not, I was surprised and posted the results. Since the G5s are the top of the line models for Apple, I picked the top of the line home desktop computer from Dell, an XLS model. This seemed like a logical and fair comparison, until many started posting cheaper models with the same performance. I then compared the 1.6 GHz G5 with a Dell Precision workstation model and discovered you could even pay more for a Dell than a G5 with similar performance and features.
Obviously Dell is making much higher profit on these models, but everyone here is too savvy to buy one. With Apple, there is no low priced option, so we must buy the top of the line to get the performance.
Comments
Originally posted by Matsu
Apple engineers and designs just as few components as Dell or anybody else, and they certainly manufacture almost nothing themselves, it's all farmed out. The only components they use that are different from X86 ar the PPC chip and mobo/controller, everything else is industry standard, bought from a bin, stuff.
Apple engineers helped write the PPC spec, led the design of VMX, and have an active hand in the design of all the PowerPC processors they use. They are far more involved and expert integrators than other PC vendors. Look at their notebook designs, for one.
What does manufacturing have to do with design or integration, anyway?
They assemble parts and go a bit further on case design than other vendors, but that's it. Dell, for instance, spends more than Apple on R&D. They just spend it in different areas (not support, that's not R&D)
They spend it developing ways to make manufacturing cheaper. I'd be surprised if 10% of Dell's R&D funds went into design or engineering.
Originally posted by Matsu
WRONG!
Apple engineers and designs just as few components as Dell or anybody else, and they certainly manufacture almost nothing themselves, it's all farmed out. The only components they use that are different from X86 ar the PPC chip and mobo/controller, everything else is industry standard, bought from a bin, stuff.
They assemble parts and go a bit further on case design than other vendors, but that's it. Dell, for instance, spends more than Apple on R&D. They just spend it in different areas (not support, that's not R&D)
Though the "implementation" might not be, the "components" in your mac are cheap, get used to it.
OK Mr. Knowitall:
Go buy the parts new from a dealer and build me a an iMac, eMac, Powerbook, iBook, G4 Tower or any mac for that matter. Go buy a G5 motherboard. You Can't
I can however build you a virtually identical PC with parts from PCMall or Tiger Direct. As a matter of fact I probably can get an unbranded dell case from the OEM.
Yes industry standard stuff like HD's, CDROM, some video cards, USB, memory and the like work because apple has included them in the design.
Most stuff that is manufactured today is made primarily by subcontactors. And usually assembled by subcontractors.
Yes chips on the motherboard may be the same as some on a PC but that's about it. Yeah the individual chips are cheap, that means nothing.
Originally posted by Gilsch
Hehe, gotta love these annoying price comparisons. We all know Macs are more expensive off the bat than PCs. . .
I admitted that the topic was not well worded back in my last post on page one, and suggested the topic should have been, "The G5 is Priced Like Some Dells." That is, you can spend just as much and even more for a Dell with the performance and features of a 1.6 GHz G5 Power Mac. I gave examples of XPS and Precision models. However, it seems that few Dell customers buy a Precision or XPS case if there is another choice. From what most have been saying here, buyers go for the cheapest model Dell with the performance and features they want.
R&D money is R&D money. It is NOT calculated on a per unit basis. You do R&D for a product, if you sell a lot of them, well, you recoup that cost faster and make more money, but you still spent what you spent on development. At the end of the day we're talking similar volumes in that the concerns of selling 10 million units are similar to those of selling 3 million.
Which leads me to Amorph's point, which is a good one, I agree that Dell probably spends a lot of time figuring how to make something that used to cost 25 cents, for 18 cents, and then spends even more time with all the little penny-weight examples that add up to dollars at the end of the day. I don't think that it's as high 90% of their R&D budget, but it's most likely the majority.
But don't forget that Dell also has a OS/Office license to pay, and Apple doesn't, ALL of Apple's R&D includes their software bundle. Dell already spends more, and when you add the weight of their licenses, the expenditure grows again. STill they deal in volume and I doubt that Windows costs them very much. We've been through it many times before opn this board and yes, Dell can simply build cheaper, by 30-100 bucks all told, varying by model. Fine, I've never argued that Apple should try to undercut their bottom end though, just that they hgave to be close. At the consumer desktop end, they aren't close at all. On laptops they are, or even come out ahead depending on your priorities, and on workstations (G5) Apple is also ahead, but iMacs and eMacs get spanked hard by the wintel competition.
Now getting back to the nature of R&D. One has to question whether Dell isn't on to something. Spend lotsa money to figure out how to do things cheaper. Apple spends lotsa money to figure out integration, and when you think that they're also getting an OS and iApps out of their expenditures, you have to conclude that Apple's R&D is marvelously efficient. See, it isn't all bad, not at all. Dell could learn something from Apple, but then again, Apple could learn something from Dell. Taking a few bucks from iMovie 4 to figure out how to get the same quality iMac chassis for less, or how to streamline assembly isn't a bad thing either.
Dell doesn't kill markets. Markets evolve or die. Dell does try to kill competitors, but all competitors try to do that in the areas where they compete. Just as Apple leads when it comes to integration, Dell leads when it comes to processes.
We commonly talk about people following Apple, we bitterly talk about people stealing from them, but we often ignore people following Dell, learning from them and availing themselves of advancements that they make in driving down costs.
Ironically, it's probably easier to look at iMovie and say, OK, we can add/copy this, this, and this than it is to look at a Dell and think, how did they build this to the same standard for so much less? It's easy to push the usual line about slave wages and huge volumes, but it's something more delicate than that.
If you want to use car analogies that matter, think of processes. How does Honda build a car that is the manufacturing equal of product from BMW or Mercedes? You might say, "Hey, that's easy, they sell many times more units and amortize the costs." I say OK, "But then why can't GM do it with anywhere near the same consistency, they sell yet again many more units than Honda?" ***
***Which is not to say that Apple or Dell equate to any of those car companies mentioned, just that a question of balance comes up, and rose colored glasses, or excuses about Apple's disadvantages don't help an understanding any better than my own slightly choleric vents.
Originally posted by Matsu
R&D money is R&D money. It is NOT calculated on a per unit basis.
And no one said that. Even Michael Dell says that Apple spend more on R&D than he does.
Come back when you have figured out how he is right about that.
Originally posted by klinux
1. No, Dell does not have any FW port. Adding a FW800/400 is not quite an upgrade.
2. Just pop in an 802.11g PCI card. Sure, it is not as easy as an solution but I am not debating that.
3. Indeed. If one needs that on Dell, buy an add-on card whose performance will beat that of any on-board solution of any vendor, Apple included.
4. I agree. However, Dell does have front-mounted USB 2.0 ports.
5. OS related point - already discussed.
Again, G5 is an excellent product, but items 1-3 does not cost $1000. Point still remains: G5 is not priced like Dell by any means.
Firewire: $40-50, ? ($70-80?) for FW 800
PCI 802.11g.
Optical $? ($18-25?)
Software: iPhoto $15 iTunes $10 IMovie $28 iDvd $25 iCal + Addr book $7 Mail $0.
Comes out about $145-$165 (without 802.11g, since G5 doesn't have it built-in eithier.) But the real point is, how many PCI slots are on that thing anyway? You use up 3 slots just making the Dell compare to the G5. Also, especially if you stock-order for business, who want's to open up the Dell's (annoying) case - on each machine you buy (say 30?) And you might even pay someone to do it... Up goes the price.
Originally posted by Matsu
Read me again. I said the only parts that were different, not that Apple manufactured. PPC's are made for them, ie, bought from a bin, and so are controllers, except in the case of the new G5. Mobos are a question of laying out traces, and Gateway/IBM/Dell/HP-compaq all do this too. They get a lot of help from Intel/AMD, but so too does Apple get a lot of help from IBM (in the case of the G5) and such help as moto could give (G4)
I really think you are oversimplifying the whole thing. "Laying out traces"? What does that mean? Are you talking about the curcuit board?
Compaq and HP an IBM have motherboards made for them and some of Dell's are too. These motherboards are not that different than ones you can buy, they are usually changes to fit the case or so that it is propriatary. So they can charge 300$ for a part that fits them only. But the majority of motherboards are virtually identical to those on the
consumer market.
Anyway...
These convos are usually based on personal opinions and rarely on fact. I am not sure where you get your info, but common sense would and should dictate what makes sense.
Why are we comparing Dell with Apple? Dell has pretty much been a beige box parts pusher. I mean come on. Must PC builders have not really focused on innovation until prompted by some product like say the iMac. I would probably pick Sony as a better company to compare with. They have always been pretty innovative in the PC market.
Don't get me wrong, Dell seems to build quality stuff. As a technician/consultant I recommend Dell, if customers can't or won't go Apple.
I am no expert when it comes to engineering or designing computer components, however from what I have read x86 chips are a world apart from the PowerPC chips. That goes double for the newest 970. My point?
I can' t see a fair comparison between ithe two. There are just too many caviats.
The fact that there are so many discussions on this matter only prove to me that thay are competitive. This is by no meens suggesting equality.
The Intel platform minus Windows is pretty solid. The problem is this;
It is very difficult to seperate the OS form Apple computer hardware, they are like hand and glove, made for each other. OSX is a extremely advanced OS. If you could put an equivelent OS on the PC platform the comparison would be infinately more fair. Is their such a beast out their?
Enter the G5. Now again the comparisons come flowing in, most just speculation. Like I said before, wait until pantherGM and G5 meet. Then compare. But once again it is not a fair comparison because of the afore mentioned reasons.
Originally posted by NaplesX
-snip-
From my experience, mac processors are equal to Intel processors running 2-3 times faster. This is due to very technical reasons, most of which have to do with efficiency of processor and cache. The Apple chips are more efficient. There is a video and web page in the apple site I think it is in the ADC section, that contains an explination. So please, I beg of you, don't use processor speed alone to measure performance. I feel it only higlights ignorance, no offence.
-Snip-
I'm not sure which processors you've been comparing, but for most tasks the G4 is roughly the equivalent of an Athlon XP -- about 20% faster than a P4 at any given clock rate. For a few tasks the SMID give it a nice boost, but a single 1GHz G4 does not compare well to a 2-3GHz P4.
Processor speed alone is never the way to judge the computer's performance. It is the processor, System bus, Video Card, and disk drive subsystem that determines how well the computer performs. That being said, PCs give you more power for your dollar than all of Apples offerings except the Dual 2GHz G5 (there is a reason that it is the most popular configuration).
Originally posted by klinux
Please, the next thing people will say is how much better G4 is better than any P4! Now that G5 is out maybe the "megahertz myth" myth will now be gone.
In any case, you cannot argue that Apple is priced like a PC - even Jobs cannot argue that. Case in point: check out http://www.techbargains.com/. Look for "400SC".
"This machine is a high end Intel 875P chipset board with 400/533/800Mhz Bus CPU support, dual channel DDR400 memory, AGP 8x video card slot, Gigabit Ethernet, Serial ATA interface."
Price? $299 after rebate with free shipping. Spec? "Celeron 2Ghz, 128MB DDR333 ECC/40GB 48x CD" Sure, the specs are not the same but for $2000, I am sure you can make up the difference in some other ways.
Apple products are superior. I expect (and do) pay a premium for it. But to try to argue it actually cost the same? I don't think so.
THe 400SC is not a very good comparison. Once you've customized it at dell and added in the other goodies to bring it up to par, it comes out more expensive then the Dimension 4600 or the OptiPlex.
http://www.computerworld.com/softwar...,84023,00.html
No all this sounds very negative, do I have to fondle the collective mac ego everytime I post? Geeze. There's lotsa good stuff at Apple too, like laptops, like G5 workstations, like iApps and OSX, and iPods/iTMS. But there's that familiar price question too, and too many excuses when it comes to that, or unrealistically generous characterizations of the mythical "Dell manufacturing advantage"
Gimme a break, if Dell has some advantages, it's because they worked their asses off to get them, just like those advantages that Apple has -- OSX, iApps, iTMS, and superlative laptops reliability didn't just spring out of Jobs' muslei one morning, fully formed and ready for sale.
All I'm saying is that Apple can learn from the strengths of other companies in the same way that other companies learn from them, and that there's no need to mystify Apple's production process as an excuse for their prices. What one company can do, so can another.
Originally posted by Matsu
That article is just a bunch of assertions aswell, not any more meaningful than the stuff that goes on here. As for "fairness" there's no such thing. A computer is immediately comparable to any other computer that does the same job and costs about the same, period. HW/SF issues, who has access to what parts, etc etc, DOES NOT MATTER! You don't feel the architecture, or whether the parts cost 4 bucks or 20 bucks. YOu interact with the finished product, how that product is made is the manufacturer's business. If they chose components or made certain platform decisions, then they live with the result, for better or worse, but it doesn't negate the comparability of said products. Do reviewers of vehicles say, hey this isn't bad for a natural gas or electric vehicle? Sometimes they do, but usually that's he death knell of said model because consumers do not make such allowances, nor should they. Consumers say, either this is a good car or it isn't, the best electric car, might be darned good "for an electric" but still a piece of crap as a car in general. So it is with computers.
No all this sounds very negative, do I have to fondle the collective mac ego everytime I post? Geeze. There's lotsa good stuff at Apple too, like laptops, like G5 workstations, like iApps and OSX, and iPods/iTMS. But there's that familiar price question too, and too many excuses when it comes to that, or unrealistically generous characterizations of the mythical "Dell manufacturing advantage"
Gimme a break, if Dell has some advantages, it's because they worked their asses off to get them, just like those advantages that Apple has -- OSX, iApps, iTMS, and superlative laptops reliability didn't just spring out of Jobs' muslei one morning, fully formed and ready for sale.
All I'm saying is that Apple can learn from the strengths of other companies in the same way that other companies learn from them, and that there's no need to mystify Apple's production process as an excuse for their prices. What one company can do, so can another.
This is Michael Dell. Right?
Hey Mike your computers are real good man. Relax.
You will come up with something that competes with Apple. Be patient. Keep trying.
Originally posted by Res
THe 400SC is not a very good comparison. Once you've customized it at dell and added in the other goodies to bring it up to par, it comes out more expensive then the Dimension 4600 or the OptiPlex.
Customize it at Dell? Are you crazy? Do you get your RAM from Apple?
Originally posted by klinux
Customize it at Dell? Are you crazy? Do you get your RAM from Apple?
LOL, no. But it is still not a good buy. If you want to add everything in yourself you are much better off building a PC from scratch. If you want to buy a whole PC you would be much better served by the Dimension or OptiPlex models. As for me, I always build them myself and think that the Dells are way overpriced, but they are a much fairer comparison to Macs than homebuilt systems.
Originally posted by Res
LOL, no. But it is still not a good buy. If you want to add everything in yourself you are much better off building a PC from scratch. If you want to buy a whole PC you would be much better served by the Dimension or OptiPlex models. As for me, I always build them myself and think that the Dells are way overpriced, but they are a much fairer comparison to Macs than homebuilt systems.
Personally, I used to like building my own as well because it was fun. Now my time is more valuable. Guess I am getting old!
Anyway, Dell overpriced? The consensus seems to be against you. Check FatWallet, Techbargains, or GotApex. Most people would say Dell's price is hard to beat if impossible. And this is against every PC vendor - Apple, Gateway, Compaq, etc - or even build your own.
Case in point: take my favorite whipping boy, the 400SC. An Intel i875P chipset motherboard got be, say $150? A Celly 2.0 (highly overclockable and stable to 3 ghz - if you are into that) is $70? 40 GB HD - say $40. We are already at $260 and you are not counting in an optical drive, RAM, power supply, a case, shipping, etc. There's also the time of putting it together! (BTW, now you also get a KB and mouse for the $299. I know, whoopity-f***ing-doo!) Also, don't forget the time of putting one together!
I would still put together my own PC for special purposes (HTPC? Car PC? SFF?) but if you want a no-frill machine, I'd say it's hard to beat Dell.
BTW, to keep this on topic (I am a stickler!), had this been a thread about eMac vs Dell, I probably would have kept out of this. PC vs Mac arguments seems to be what Mac users do here when they run out of things to talk about.
Originally posted by NaplesX
This is Michael Dell. Right?
Hey Mike your computers are real good man. Relax.
You will come up with something that competes with Apple. Be patient. Keep trying.
HAHA
Unlike some, I wouldn't mind being either Jobs or Dell for a day or three. Probably have more fun as Dell though. What good is being a billionaire if you can't go out and eat some insanely expensive gourmet game meats? Seems a sin to be a vegetarian with so much cash at your culinary disposal.
Meh, anyway, unlike some I really think that it depends.Put it this way:
Let's say I'm in a situation to spend your money to buy myself a computer. No-brainer, I get myself a 17" PB and mebbe a dual 2Ghz G5 for the desk.
But, If I have to spend my money to put 12 desktops on my employees desks, I buy 12 Dell's and am perfectly happy to call it a day.
Since I have to spend my own money to buy my own computer, well, then I get myself a 12" PB (done) and a nice 17-19 TFT panel for my desk (coming) and enjoy mobile computing bliss.
Now, just you wait untill I climb a few more rungs of public service bureaucracy and get more access to your money!
The point of all this is that Dell and Apple are competitors and each makes better computers in certain segments than the other.
Originally posted by Matsu
HAHA
Unlike some, I wouldn't mind being either Jobs or Dell for a day or three. Probably have more fun as Dell though. What good is being a billionaire if you can't go out and eat some insanely expensive gourmet game meats? Seems a sin to be a vegetarian with so much cash at your culinary disposal.
Meh, anyway, unlike some I really think that it depends.Put it this way:
Let's say I'm in a situation to spend your money to buy myself a computer. No-brainer, I get myself a 17" PB and mebbe a dual 2Ghz G5 for the desk.
But, If I have to spend my money to put 12 desktops on my employees desks, I buy 12 Dell's and am perfectly happy to call it a day.
Since I have to spend my own money to buy my own computer, well, then I get myself a 12" PB (done) and a nice 17-19 TFT panel for my desk (coming) and enjoy mobile computing bliss.
Now, just you wait untill I climb a few more rungs of public service bureaucracy and get more access to your money!
The point of all this is that Dell and Apple are competitors and each makes better computers in certain segments than the other.
I can agree to most of that, just that chasing those PC when they break will cost you more over time than the mac, IMO. So cheaper upfront, but maybe not in the long run. once again IMO.
Other than that I go along with all of the above. Pretty funny stuff.
Originally posted by klinux
BTW, to keep this on topic (I am a stickler!), had this been a thread about eMac vs Dell, I probably would have kept out of this. PC vs Mac arguments seems to be what Mac users do here when they run out of things to talk about.
That is axactly why i had to pipe up. Dell and Apple are two different kinds of campanies and with different clients, for the most part. I agree with you.
Originally posted by Matsu
That article is just a bunch of assertions aswell, not any more meaningful than the stuff that goes on here.
Gimme a break, if Dell has some advantages, it's because they worked their asses off to get them, just like those advantages that Apple has
And your rant wasnt a bunch of asssertions? You must be crazy if you think Dell offers anything but crap - every person I know who owns one regerts it. You dont deserve a break.
Originally posted by klinux
. . . BTW, to keep this on topic (I am a stickler!), had this been a thread about eMac vs Dell, I probably would have kept out of this. PC vs Mac arguments seems to be what Mac users do here when they run out of things to talk about.
Actually, I was not running out of things to do. I'm planning to get a 1.6 GHz G5 with a combo drive and out of curiosity compared it to Dell. I expected the Dell to be way cheaper. When it was not, I was surprised and posted the results. Since the G5s are the top of the line models for Apple, I picked the top of the line home desktop computer from Dell, an XLS model. This seemed like a logical and fair comparison, until many started posting cheaper models with the same performance. I then compared the 1.6 GHz G5 with a Dell Precision workstation model and discovered you could even pay more for a Dell than a G5 with similar performance and features.
Obviously Dell is making much higher profit on these models, but everyone here is too savvy to buy one. With Apple, there is no low priced option, so we must buy the top of the line to get the performance.