I don't know what I expect them to take, but they should take an intelligent one.
And it's sick of you to say someone should hope Catholics die of AIDS. Sick in the head. A majority of the people in this thread that are upset with what was said are in favor of less people dying of AIDS.
The church lied. I hope whoever's responsible rots in their hell.
And it's sick of you to say someone should hope Catholics die of AIDS. Sick in the head. A majority of the people in this thread that are upset with what was said are in favor of less people dying of AIDS.
I don't hope anyone dies of AIDS.
Quote:
The church lied.
What did they lie about?
Quote:
I hope whoever's responsible rots in their hell.
Rotting in hell is a far worse fate than the momentary act of dying and moving on to something better. Who's sick now?
They said that using condoms increases the risk of AIDS.
What did they lie about? Where is your brain?
And, doesn't it? Let's see:
- No sex.
- Sex with condoms.
Which one increases likelyhood of infection over the other? Where's your brain? Try to use it sometimes.
The amount of intelligent posts in this thread is so low, it's amazing. Read alcimedes' post, I think it more or less explains the church's stance (Purpose of Sex == Children, nothing else). I think they completely lost touch with reality, but that doesn't mean they lie or their logic is flawed, the premises are (in today's world).
Which one increases likelyhood of infection over the other? Where's your brain? Try to use it sometimes.
But not using condoms != no sex. You can't correlate these two pieces to fabricate your equation simply because they're not related.
If you have sex, using a condom is safer. If you don't have sex, that's safest of all. The unifying factor isn't the condom, it's if you do or don't have sex. The church is skipping that part of the equation and fabricating their answer.
It's illogical. And it's a blatant lie. It's also going to kill people. Proper education will save lives, not lying to them.
Correct, that means you are married and are prepared to build a family (conceive a child etc.).
And how exactly do you want to do that with a condom? Using a condom means you have sex only for pleasure which is against everything the church teaches. In other words: it is forbidden.
If you are not married, you must not have sex. If you are married, you must never change your partner again (unless he/she dies, of course).
not using condoms ==
1) no sex => P(You get AIDS) = 0
2) having sex with only one partner. Since both never had sex with anyone else => P(You get AIDS) = virtually zero (the partner has been infected through needles etc.)
So: Yes, they are related. There's simply no need for condoms. It is a sin to simply **** around and that's exactly what condoms are here for.
Quote:
It's illogical. And it's a blatant lie.
Wrong.
Quote:
It's also going to kill people.
Correct. But that's because it is kind of fatal if you only listen to half of what they say.
And how exactly do you want to do that with a condom? Using a condom means you have sex only for pleasure which is against everything the church teaches. In other words: it is forbidden.
If you are not married, you must not have sex. If you are married, you must never change your partner again (unless he/she dies, of course).
..
So: Yes, they are related. There's simply no need for condoms. It is a sin to simply **** around and that's exactly what condoms are here for.
I guess I'll never understand the church.
If I'm happily married and have 4 kids, but can barely afford to keep food on the table and clothes on their backs, I can't use contraception of any kind. Never mind that more kids will drastically reduce the quality of life for my family, I just have to suck it up and keep pumping out the kids. Oh well, I can always go on welfare.
In this case, I would be using a condom so I could make love to my wife without financially ruining our family, not ****ing around.
And how exactly do you want to do that with a condom? Using a condom means you have sex only for pleasure which is against everything the church teaches. In other words: it is forbidden.
If you are not married, you must not have sex. If you are married, you must never change your partner again (unless he/she dies, of course).
not using condoms ==
1) no sex => P(You get AIDS) = 0
2) having sex with only one partner. Since both never had sex with anyone else => P(You get AIDS) = virtually zero (the partner has been infected through needles etc.)
So: Yes, they are related. There's simply no need for condoms. It is a sin to simply **** around and that's exactly what condoms are here for.
If the church wants to preach that you can't have sex, then do it. I have no problems with that. I don't listen to them, but I don't begrudge others who make the choice to be Catholic to follow the laws of the church.
But that's not what the Vatican has said. They should come out and say sex is bad unless you're married and that you shouldn't use condoms because they're against the reproductive rules of the church. This is not what the Vatican is doing and they're being irresponsible.
You can, if you so choose, put two and two together to make five. But for the church to deceive people by hiding the veracity of their own rules and distilling their own teachings while simultaneously misrepresenting the truth is criminal.
They can teach that it's against the church to use condoms. They can also teach that it's going to kill you to live vicariously. But to teach that condoms don't help is beyond terrible. It is supposed to be up to the individual to decide if they are going to live by the rules of the church. It's not the job of the church to attempt to help people die.
Condoms help, the rules of the church are full proof. That's the truth and it's quite simple. Teach it and get your converts. To say what they did is inviting death, not religious growth and prosperity.
But that's not what the Vatican has said. They should come out and say sex is bad unless you're married and that you shouldn't use condoms because they're against the reproductive rules of the church. This is not what the Vatican is doing and they're being irresponsible.
This is exactly what the vatican has said all the time.
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
YES. You are 'allowed' to sex outside marriage. In my opinion. In my opinion, you are not 'allowed' to **** altar boys, but hey, I'm not a catholic.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox
Besides, if you hate Catholics so much, you should be happy that we're all going to die of AIDS
My uncle died last week. I attended his Catholic requiem mass. I loved him. Anyone dying of AIDS is a tragedy.
Quote:
Originally posted by Jukebox
I think you have to laugh that there can be so many completely opposite opinions. It seems obvious to me and the opposite seems obvious to you. ... I think maybe I could never say it better than that song from Mike and the Mechanics.
No, it is not OPINION that wearing a condom reduces AIDS and in correct use acts as a superb barrier to HIV; and that spermicidal lubricant is also an excellent antiviral agent. It is a stone-cold, reproducible, invariable, demonstrable, scientifically
PROVEN. ****ING. FACT.
Damn faith, damn those who claim to speak for God when they would consign millions of innocents to a slow painful death, an avoidable death; who would see millions of orphans that never knew a parent's love; that would see nations economically crippled. If hell exists, they are going there. They are going there, them and Mike and the Mechanics.
You know, if a Jew or Muslim found themselves in a famine and nothing but pork to eat, they should. If the last two human beings on the planet had no priest to marry them, they should carry the species on.
A continent is facing a holocaust (let's be clear: millions, millions are going to die). Teaching people about fidelity in marriage, no sex before marriage and WEARING A CONDOM FOR SEX saves lives.
If it doesn't need a Bible reference then there;s nothing stopping it changing it's rules.
1) Who was talking about changing the rules? And what are you trying to accomplish, anyway?
2) The catholic church and the pope can say anything they like without any reference since they are infallible. Of course contradictions are not allowed. Those rules are set up by the church.
So, either point me to a bible reference that contradicts catholic teaching or stop wasting my time.
Quote:
The only reason they are non-changeable is because they are said to come form God. God reveals himself through scripture.
Yes, but not alone. He can also talk to the Pope for example.
YES. You are 'allowed' to sex outside marriage. In my opinion. In my opinion, you are not 'allowed' to **** altar boys, but hey, I'm not a catholic.
I thought it was funny when it was first brought up by murbot. Now that it is the third time, I think it is just the worst kind of argumentation, kind of desperate.
And no, you're not allowed to do either one of those two things (according to catholic teaching, or are we suddenly discussing your opinions and your logic? I thought it was the catholic church's.).
I think you have to laugh that there can be so many completely opposite opinions. It seems obvious to me and the opposite seems obvious to you. I think the bitterness that people are showing in this thread are the result of frustrations with the world. I think maybe I could never say it better than that song from Mike and the Mechanics.
Oh Jesus...anyone who tags himself after a Foreigner song and quotes from Mike & the Mechanics just CAN'T be trusted...crawl back to the early 80's (hole) where you came from...
Re your second point, I am trying to bash the Church obviously. The fact that it is also a sick institution that needs exposing before it gets any more innocents in it's evil clutches merely adds to the pleasure.
Yes, so do that, but that has little to do with the claim that their thinking is illogical. Which it is not.
And the rest of your post once again is just distracting from what is being discussed. If you think that the church should do this or that, fine. If you don't agree with their bible interpretation, ok. So what? If people would abide by the rules, there would not be AIDS. What has been said about condoms is not illogical, it is consistent with the other things the church teaches and as a whole, the rules are no threat to anybody, unless you break them.
As for the general church bashing: look for someone else.
BTW: non sequitur is written with an I, I had some latin myself. As well as logic.
This is exactly what the vatican has said all the time.
No, what we're talking about is how the church is now saying that the virus can pass through a condom.
Quote:
Originally posted by 123
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
I don't care what you're allowed to do. Preach what you're allowed to preach but don't make shit up. The virus doesn't 'pass through' a condom. You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. We all know the church is lying about it too.
Tell everyone the truth. Sex with a condom is safer than sex without a condom, and monogomy is the only full-proof* method. That's not what the church is saying according to the article we're discussing. So address the topics the article addresses, not generic church teachings.
You're having a laugh. When the Pope, or someone at the Vatican claims that condoms don't stop AIDS, they are wrong. They have failed.
Was the church wrong when it said that the world was flat?
I mean, come on. We can have a semantic / theological argument about 'truth' or 'fallibility' but the fact is the Church has a fantastic history of talking shit and claiming faith as justification. The Earth is round. It goes round the sun. Get that wrong and you just put science back by a few years; I don't really care (while we're at it Man and elephants have a common ancestor).
Say that condoms don't prevent AIDS and millions die.
Comments
Originally posted by Smircle
As I am trying to live a life free of indoctrination - thanks, but no thanks, the martyr pose you are strinking does not move my heart
Hardly a martyr pose to simply state my observations without substantial risk of reprocussion.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
What position do you expect the church to take?
I don't know what I expect them to take, but they should take an intelligent one.
And it's sick of you to say someone should hope Catholics die of AIDS. Sick in the head. A majority of the people in this thread that are upset with what was said are in favor of less people dying of AIDS.
The church lied. I hope whoever's responsible rots in their hell.
Originally posted by bunge
And it's sick of you to say someone should hope Catholics die of AIDS. Sick in the head. A majority of the people in this thread that are upset with what was said are in favor of less people dying of AIDS.
I don't hope anyone dies of AIDS.
The church lied.
What did they lie about?
I hope whoever's responsible rots in their hell.
Rotting in hell is a far worse fate than the momentary act of dying and moving on to something better. Who's sick now?
Originally posted by tonton
You've GOT to be kidding, right?
They said that using condoms increases the risk of AIDS.
What did they lie about? Where is your brain?
And, doesn't it? Let's see:
- No sex.
- Sex with condoms.
Which one increases likelyhood of infection over the other? Where's your brain? Try to use it sometimes.
The amount of intelligent posts in this thread is so low, it's amazing. Read alcimedes' post, I think it more or less explains the church's stance (Purpose of Sex == Children, nothing else). I think they completely lost touch with reality, but that doesn't mean they lie or their logic is flawed, the premises are (in today's world).
Now for you, Math Hero:
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
(28/30)*leak_rate+(2/30)*leak_rate=.01
solve that equation and you get
leak_rate=0.15 or
15% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a*x + b*x = c
=> (a + b)*x = c | distributive law
if a + b == 1
=> x = c
Maybe you need some numbers:
(28/30)*leak_rate+(2/30)*leak_rate=.01
=> (28/30 + 2/30)*leak_rate = 0.01
=> 1 * leak_rate = 0.01
NOW SOLVE THAT EQUATION!!
What does that tell us? Nothing, I'd say.
Originally posted by 123
And, doesn't it? Let's see:
- No sex.
- Sex with condoms.
Which one increases likelyhood of infection over the other? Where's your brain? Try to use it sometimes.
But not using condoms != no sex. You can't correlate these two pieces to fabricate your equation simply because they're not related.
If you have sex, using a condom is safer. If you don't have sex, that's safest of all. The unifying factor isn't the condom, it's if you do or don't have sex. The church is skipping that part of the equation and fabricating their answer.
It's illogical. And it's a blatant lie. It's also going to kill people. Proper education will save lives, not lying to them.
Originally posted by bunge
[B]But not using condoms != no sex.
Correct, that means you are married and are prepared to build a family (conceive a child etc.).
And how exactly do you want to do that with a condom? Using a condom means you have sex only for pleasure which is against everything the church teaches. In other words: it is forbidden.
If you are not married, you must not have sex. If you are married, you must never change your partner again (unless he/she dies, of course).
not using condoms ==
1) no sex => P(You get AIDS) = 0
2) having sex with only one partner. Since both never had sex with anyone else => P(You get AIDS) = virtually zero (the partner has been infected through needles etc.)
So: Yes, they are related. There's simply no need for condoms. It is a sin to simply **** around and that's exactly what condoms are here for.
It's illogical. And it's a blatant lie.
Wrong.
It's also going to kill people.
Correct. But that's because it is kind of fatal if you only listen to half of what they say.
And how exactly do you want to do that with a condom? Using a condom means you have sex only for pleasure which is against everything the church teaches. In other words: it is forbidden.
If you are not married, you must not have sex. If you are married, you must never change your partner again (unless he/she dies, of course).
..
So: Yes, they are related. There's simply no need for condoms. It is a sin to simply **** around and that's exactly what condoms are here for.
I guess I'll never understand the church.
If I'm happily married and have 4 kids, but can barely afford to keep food on the table and clothes on their backs, I can't use contraception of any kind. Never mind that more kids will drastically reduce the quality of life for my family, I just have to suck it up and keep pumping out the kids. Oh well, I can always go on welfare.
In this case, I would be using a condom so I could make love to my wife without financially ruining our family, not ****ing around.
Originally posted by 123
And how exactly do you want to do that with a condom? Using a condom means you have sex only for pleasure which is against everything the church teaches. In other words: it is forbidden.
If you are not married, you must not have sex. If you are married, you must never change your partner again (unless he/she dies, of course).
not using condoms ==
1) no sex => P(You get AIDS) = 0
2) having sex with only one partner. Since both never had sex with anyone else => P(You get AIDS) = virtually zero (the partner has been infected through needles etc.)
So: Yes, they are related. There's simply no need for condoms. It is a sin to simply **** around and that's exactly what condoms are here for.
If the church wants to preach that you can't have sex, then do it. I have no problems with that. I don't listen to them, but I don't begrudge others who make the choice to be Catholic to follow the laws of the church.
But that's not what the Vatican has said. They should come out and say sex is bad unless you're married and that you shouldn't use condoms because they're against the reproductive rules of the church. This is not what the Vatican is doing and they're being irresponsible.
You can, if you so choose, put two and two together to make five. But for the church to deceive people by hiding the veracity of their own rules and distilling their own teachings while simultaneously misrepresenting the truth is criminal.
They can teach that it's against the church to use condoms. They can also teach that it's going to kill you to live vicariously. But to teach that condoms don't help is beyond terrible. It is supposed to be up to the individual to decide if they are going to live by the rules of the church. It's not the job of the church to attempt to help people die.
Condoms help, the rules of the church are full proof. That's the truth and it's quite simple. Teach it and get your converts. To say what they did is inviting death, not religious growth and prosperity.
Originally posted by bunge
But that's not what the Vatican has said. They should come out and say sex is bad unless you're married and that you shouldn't use condoms because they're against the reproductive rules of the church. This is not what the Vatican is doing and they're being irresponsible.
This is exactly what the vatican has said all the time.
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
Originally posted by segovius
To you have a Biblical reference of that from Jesus Christ. I'd like to see it.
When you fail to find one perhaps you could give us your take on why sex for pleasure is a sin. Theologically.
1) Since when does the vatican need a bible reference for anything? Are we talking about the bible or about the catholic church?
2) What exactly are you talking about? You quote something and ask about something else.
Originally posted by 123
This is exactly what the vatican has said all the time.
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
I don't know of too many alter boys being married to priests.
Originally posted by 123
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
YES. You are 'allowed' to sex outside marriage. In my opinion. In my opinion, you are not 'allowed' to **** altar boys, but hey, I'm not a catholic.
Originally posted by Jukebox
Besides, if you hate Catholics so much, you should be happy that we're all going to die of AIDS
My uncle died last week. I attended his Catholic requiem mass. I loved him. Anyone dying of AIDS is a tragedy.
Originally posted by Jukebox
I think you have to laugh that there can be so many completely opposite opinions. It seems obvious to me and the opposite seems obvious to you. ... I think maybe I could never say it better than that song from Mike and the Mechanics.
No, it is not OPINION that wearing a condom reduces AIDS and in correct use acts as a superb barrier to HIV; and that spermicidal lubricant is also an excellent antiviral agent. It is a stone-cold, reproducible, invariable, demonstrable, scientifically
PROVEN. ****ING. FACT.
Damn faith, damn those who claim to speak for God when they would consign millions of innocents to a slow painful death, an avoidable death; who would see millions of orphans that never knew a parent's love; that would see nations economically crippled. If hell exists, they are going there. They are going there, them and Mike and the Mechanics.
You know, if a Jew or Muslim found themselves in a famine and nothing but pork to eat, they should. If the last two human beings on the planet had no priest to marry them, they should carry the species on.
A continent is facing a holocaust (let's be clear: millions, millions are going to die). Teaching people about fidelity in marriage, no sex before marriage and WEARING A CONDOM FOR SEX saves lives.
It saves lives.
**** this murderous dogma.
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
A church that changes its values based on the current moral climate is obviously a fake.
A 'church' that lets its priests screw little children and then protects them from the law is obviously a fake.
Originally posted by segovius
If it doesn't need a Bible reference then there;s nothing stopping it changing it's rules.
1) Who was talking about changing the rules? And what are you trying to accomplish, anyway?
2) The catholic church and the pope can say anything they like without any reference since they are infallible. Of course contradictions are not allowed. Those rules are set up by the church.
So, either point me to a bible reference that contradicts catholic teaching or stop wasting my time.
The only reason they are non-changeable is because they are said to come form God. God reveals himself through scripture.
Yes, but not alone. He can also talk to the Pope for example.
Originally posted by Harald
YES. You are 'allowed' to sex outside marriage. In my opinion. In my opinion, you are not 'allowed' to **** altar boys, but hey, I'm not a catholic.
I thought it was funny when it was first brought up by murbot. Now that it is the third time, I think it is just the worst kind of argumentation, kind of desperate.
And no, you're not allowed to do either one of those two things (according to catholic teaching, or are we suddenly discussing your opinions and your logic? I thought it was the catholic church's.).
Originally posted by Jukebox Hero
I think you have to laugh that there can be so many completely opposite opinions. It seems obvious to me and the opposite seems obvious to you. I think the bitterness that people are showing in this thread are the result of frustrations with the world. I think maybe I could never say it better than that song from Mike and the Mechanics.
Oh Jesus...anyone who tags himself after a Foreigner song and quotes from Mike & the Mechanics just CAN'T be trusted...crawl back to the early 80's (hole) where you came from...
Originally posted by segovius
Re your second point, I am trying to bash the Church obviously. The fact that it is also a sick institution that needs exposing before it gets any more innocents in it's evil clutches merely adds to the pleasure.
Yes, so do that, but that has little to do with the claim that their thinking is illogical. Which it is not.
And the rest of your post once again is just distracting from what is being discussed. If you think that the church should do this or that, fine. If you don't agree with their bible interpretation, ok. So what? If people would abide by the rules, there would not be AIDS. What has been said about condoms is not illogical, it is consistent with the other things the church teaches and as a whole, the rules are no threat to anybody, unless you break them.
As for the general church bashing: look for someone else.
BTW: non sequitur is written with an I, I had some latin myself. As well as logic.
Originally posted by 123
This is exactly what the vatican has said all the time.
No, what we're talking about is how the church is now saying that the virus can pass through a condom.
Originally posted by 123
You really think you are allowed to have sex outside marriage?
I don't care what you're allowed to do. Preach what you're allowed to preach but don't make shit up. The virus doesn't 'pass through' a condom. You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. We all know the church is lying about it too.
Tell everyone the truth. Sex with a condom is safer than sex without a condom, and monogomy is the only full-proof* method. That's not what the church is saying according to the article we're discussing. So address the topics the article addresses, not generic church teachings.
*dirty blood transfusions et all.
You're having a laugh. When the Pope, or someone at the Vatican claims that condoms don't stop AIDS, they are wrong. They have failed.
Was the church wrong when it said that the world was flat?
I mean, come on. We can have a semantic / theological argument about 'truth' or 'fallibility' but the fact is the Church has a fantastic history of talking shit and claiming faith as justification. The Earth is round. It goes round the sun. Get that wrong and you just put science back by a few years; I don't really care (while we're at it Man and elephants have a common ancestor).
Say that condoms don't prevent AIDS and millions die.
Originally posted by tonton
You've GOT to be kidding, right?
They said that using condoms increases the risk of AIDS.
What did they lie about? Where is your brain?
If you buy into the theory that condoms increase sexual permiscuity, then it does increase your risk. I buy it. Hardly a lie.