Well I am pretty happy with the G5 and can envisage a speed bump on or around Macworld. Apple was quite right to change the 1.8 to a dual processor, there was really no reason to buy the single processor 1.8 as it represented such bad value for money.
I am saddened by the introduction of the 20" iMac for one reason only, it seems to push back the date we can expect a G5 version. I am delighted with the screen and very pleased with the resolution and any iMac3 will have to have to include a 20" version.
For January, I really hope for three things:-
1: iPhoto - some serious optomisation and subfolder support and support for quicktime movies perhapps.
2: iDVD to support 16:9 anamorphic.
3: PowerMac speed bumps.
The only thing that bothers me is that this is normally a consumer show, so PM Speed bumps may not be on the agenda.
An outside possibility is a Video iPod. I would love to be able to rip movies from DVD and save as a quicktime movie on my Video pod, and play them on a train etc. Yes I know the screen would be very small, but I would expect a different form factor to accommodate a larger screen. If it could act as a portable storage device for digital cameras as well it would be a very serious too/gadget.
No kidding, there is really no thing besides displays, and i suppose updated G5s that could be put out for MWSF. HMM... I suppose it is 2 months away but this definitely signals a shift in Apple strategies.
I just gave you a list. iMac G5, PowerMac, displays (duh,) plus software. iTunes iMovie iPhoto Safari AppleWorks
I agree with you Luca? the desktop lineup is in a shambles and the situation will only get worse with each speed bump or Apple event.
How can one reasonable say that the desktop line up is in a shambles? There really is no justification for such a statement.
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The idea with this tradeshow is to get things in order and define a product coherence/strategy/roadmap for the year, and I don't see that happening if Apple continues to use two different processors throughout the desktop lineup.
No shows are for a number of things, one of which is new product introductions. Another is to throw wild parties.
As to your description of what a trade show is, if the present a roadmap showing where the G4 is to be used for the balance of the year (not likely for apple to give out such detals) is that not being coherent. You seem to be saying that there are problems with Apple product line due to the use of the G4 in some of that product. Why? It is a givne that Apple will eventually migrate to 970 or similar based processors in some of its consumer lines. Does that mean that these new machines will meet market requirements and sell. Nope, it just means new product has hit the market.
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I know (as well as everybody else) its not reasonable to put a G5 in the iMac or dual G5s throughout the PowerMac line, however, it makes damn good marketing and for better sales? and the $ always wins (just look at recent changes in the G5 lineup - just 100 bucks for an xtra 1.8 Ghz processor, that will make people go wow and open up the cheque book or get a visa card out! I know mine nearly did!).
First you say Apple is in a shambles and does not have a coherent product line then you turn around and say its not reasonable to put a 970 in the iMacs. You are being a bit unreasonable in that you can't have it both ways. By the way I think we will shortly see only dual G5's available, it is rather stupid to buy the single processor form factor. the market knows this, thus Apple having to rush out a dual 1.8GHz unit to get rid of those processors.
A 970 based processor would go very nicely into a iMac machine or a machine targeted at iMacs market. Now there is the real question of Apple having the chipsets to do this, but we can all agree that they are working on it, no?
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Apple need to harmonize their Desktop line up, hence the G5 throughout, though they have to differentiate the Pro and consumer lineup, hence the single and dual processor strategy? its worked before
and its working at the moment - just look at the laptop range, G4s throughout.
Now we are back to wanting the G5 throughout the line up. You are hard to satisfy here. I could make the argument that it would be better to go SMP throughout the line up but that would make people squeal.
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As for the eMac - I just don't like it! Maybe it'll stick around for a couple more revisions, the Cube 2 thing plays upon recent rumors, though the idea isn't that bad. Apple got burnt the first time round (price tag and upgrade possibilities), however, they do have a terrible habit of rehashing ideas (Spartucus became the iMac), so who knows?
Apple have never been a reasonable company, though they have been known to surprise everybody at any moment! I hope 2004 will be a year of great changes?
I wouldn't go so far as to say Apple is unreasonable, Apple does what it does to survive. One of the things that it has to do is to have products people want to buy. Computers with G4's will quickly become one of the items that people will not want. So Apple will need a response, this may either be a G4++ or a 970 based machine. the 20" imac should make it pretty obvious that there are issues with the G4 line, so we can all geuss where we are going.
I am saddened by the introduction of the 20" iMac for one reason only, it seems to push back the date we can expect a G5 version. I am delighted with the screen and very pleased with the resolution and any iMac3 will have to have to include a 20" version.
it doesn't push back the g5 at all...
its there as an interim, and for apple to make some pre-christmas money. its the same base and arm as the 17", but with a different screen. so no major re-tooling or investment. its a short term interim product to catch the christmas buying period. period.
How can one reasonable say that the desktop line up is in a shambles? There really is no justification for such a statement.
I just remember the time when Apple had a coherent product grid
(the PowerMac G3 and iMac G3 etc), since then the plot has been lost a little, maybe a shambles was a harsh use of words. However, new buyers have a hard time of it trying to chose a desktop model - just go to a computer retailer (like the FNAC here in France) on a saturday and watch those poor buggers get so confused by the overlapping model configurations offered by Apple and end up buying a PC!
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You seem to be saying that there are problems with Apple product line due to the use of the G4 in some of that product. Why?
ERR, just that the G4 never delievered the goods promised for a desktop range? Mac users know it, PC users know it, and putting on sale a PowerMac G5 next to a G4 iMac you're going to be certain that a first time buyer or switcher is going to know it, hence why needs to go all G5. Its good marketing.
Maybe I want things changed too quickly, though I think for Apple a brusque change is for the best in the long run. Basically we agree with each other though just word it differently!
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Now we are back to wanting the G5 throughout the line up. You are hard to satisfy here.
Not hard to satisfy, just a long time macuser and one that can't wait for January?
Okay, it would take a lot of guts to release one with that name after the fiasco with the original but it makes sense to have something between the iMac and the PowerMac. It would essentially be a smaller version of the PowerMac G5 towers. It would be quite different from the original Cube design being larger and resembling the PowerMac G5 towers in appearance and construction. It would feature 1 AGP and 1 PCI slot and a choice of single 2.0 Ghz or 2.5 Ghz (possibly 90nm) G5 processors. Priced at $1599 and $1999 respectively. At the same time we get 2.0Ghz, 2.3Ghz x2 and 2.5Ghz x2 PowerMac G5 Towers and newly redesigned 17", 23" and 30" widescreen displays.
the desktop lineup is in a shambles and the situation will only get worse with each speed bump or Apple event.
I have to agree with this statement. Because I know where you're coming from.
Excluding the G5 Tower desktops(!), the consumer desktops are laughable. The iMac gets it so right and horribly wrong at the same time!
The eMac is the 'impossible' imac that many said could or shouldn't be done due to weight problems...so, how many people actually carry an eMac?
It's not often I have to clash swords with the 'Wizard', but on this occasion I'm differing to beg.
The eMac is a marshmallow lard ass. 'CRT is DEAD, LONG LIVE LCDS?'
Steve soon backpeddled on that when he realised the new iMac 2 line would leave Apple with no sub £1k Mac. Duh.
The eMac is a backwards step.
Most computer stores are offering dirt cheap 15 inch LCD monitors with cheap mini-towers for about the same price as an Apple eMac. AND with more ram, a DVD burner and a faster processor. It goes to show just how out of touch the eMac and iMac2 are! And those PC LCDs aren't crap either. (Apple's displays aren't the best on spec...eg 'brightness' being one such example...)
How long has the eMac got in the face of rising LCD shipments?
Only Apple are charging a premium for LCD machines.
The eMac's design is the 'glom' design that Steve Jobs derided upon the iMac 2's introduction. Irony, eh?
The iMac 2 is gorgeous (though not as much so as the Cube...) and it includes a monitor...er...and a chrome arm...a poxy 1.25 gig G4 and 'last year's' graphic card? A 20 inch iMac. An incredible machine...if you don't mind the fact that it's last year's (or is that three ago?) tech' or that you can a dual 1.8 gig G5 for a little more.
The iMac 2 offers little more than an eMac. Processor, ram, graphics card wise. They're pretty similar. Only the stunning iMac 2 design sets them apart.
Okay. So it's easy to whinge.
So what does iLemon iCeo Bon Bon i-a i-Do?
Well...
Scrap the eMac.
Replace with a mega-cheap iCube box. Pizza/cuboid/Nintendo Gamecube style small white box. Enough memory to run 'X' and iapps. Bundle cheaply with 15 inch LCD/or widescreen 17 inch. One model with built in agp.
Or a bigger iCuboid with upgradeable/config' cpu and graphics?
Re-design the iMac 2 into an iMac3.
iMac3 (the 'iCube') is made of cheaper components so all three models can break the sub-1K Sterling bracket.
OR...
Keep the iMac3 in current iMac2 bracket and redesign the base as a dock for monitor. The monitor and base are separable. The base, a little bigger...can take a standard graphics card and have three/four ram slots. they are currently occupying pro-territory and don't have pro-specs.
As for the G4 towers. Design looks ugly compared to the G5 tower. The G4 looks as hotchpotched as the eMac's 'hi-carb' diet looks ass-fat. When Jan/Feb/Mar's Tower speedbumps come around? Dual the towers...but have single G5 towers at 1.8 and 2 gig at the current G4 tower prices.
Good value? Yep.
Because no doubt G5s at 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 will arrive at current price brackets.
So how we doing?
iCube £495-£695 Three models. Cheap switcher box.
iMac 3 £895-£1595 Four Models. Semi-Upgradeable pro-sumer.
Single G5 Tower £999-£1295.
Dual G5 Tower £1595-£2195.
Which is pretty much what Apple is doing right now with the G4 towers under the G5 towers...and the eMac under the iMac.
They just need to refine the line and give it the clarity and progression that the rather nice laptops have.
There's room for two pro desktop lines at a lower and higher price.
And two consumer/prosumer lines at a lower and higher price.
The problem with Apple's desktop line is that it:
Looks out of date.
The eMac and iMac2 over lap.
It's waaaaaaaay too expensive compared to the laptop line.
Underspecced.
Slow cpus.
The G4 tower and the eMac are designs OUT OF DATE.
Poor compared to Wintel competition.
Apart from the G4 tower? Inflexible. Lack expandability. At least the graphics card!
They had done so in a couple of months from Jan-Feb last year!
Well, San Fran' usually kickstarts the Apple year and sets the theme.
I wonder what theme the master showman will set for us this coming year?
I expect a surprise.
Some little surprises.
1. A device.
2. No device? Then a redesigned iMac '3'..? If this doesn't make the San Fran' because of the current screen bump then it will come later in the Spring. Which would leave us with perhaps a...
3. Headless consumer box to take on the 'growth' market. But it will have an Apple twist.
4. I'd expect faster towers announced. If not, they'll be announced late Feb'.
5. More software. Definitely more software. We MAY yet get the iWorks office suite. Some new iapps. Maybe iChat for Windows. A good profit maker?
All to be announced at once?
Nope.
1. Revision of what iPods/Stores are doing.
2. More Software.
3. One major hardware surprise...
4. ...and another 'minor' one eg ProTower getting bumps.
I'm thinking it's been a while since the iPod...I'd be surprised if another digital lifestyle device is not in the works.
But I'm confident alot of the above will come in time anyhow.
The main concern for me is that inspite of every good thing Apple is doing the 'Switch' campaign hasn't made the impact I would have thought. I think this is largely due to the confusion in Apple's consumer range. The lack of a true £500 machine and a lack of awareness in consumer minds of the Apple brand. US Apple stores...great...but where's the international stores? Where's the advertising? Does anybody know there is a 'Mac OS X'?
Apple still aren't actively taking the fight to Windows in a way that's direct and will get them sales...and growth.
It was interesting that Apple's own people at the shareholder meeting said as much.
This year's San Fran' should be very interesting. Apple's definitely moving in the right direction...
I think Apple will be placing more and more focus on portables, than on consumer desktops. I think Steve Jobs said at the analyst's meeting that the shift has been placed by consumers towards notebooks over desktops -- and I'll betcha that's where the focus will be at MWSF 04. That and apps.
As opposed to th numerous overlapping and competeing models in the Intel compatable PC arena? If taken as a whole there is very little overlap in Apples ranges of equipment. The EMac is a product of demand in the educaton sector nothing more, Apple just happens to also sell it retail. Then you have the IMacs and the G5s, how anyone could describe those as over lapping is beyond me! Taken as a whole the Intel side is much more variable in its offerings, I doubt very much that people choose the dark side simple because of confusion with the Mac line. Apple would do well to figure out why people choose the Intel compatiable route, but often it comes down to choice and value. Apple needs to put more effort into sales based on value.
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I just remember the time when Apple had a coherent product grid
(the PowerMac G3 and iMac G3 etc), since then the plot has been lost a little, maybe a shambles was a harsh use of words. However, new buyers have a hard time of it trying to chose a desktop model - just go to a computer retailer (like the FNAC here in France) on a saturday and watch those poor buggers get so confused by the overlapping model configurations offered by Apple and end up buying a PC!
The G4 tower exist because a good manufacture is not going to simply abandon previous customers and force completely new technology down their throats. The G4 tower will go away as soon as Apple is confident that the transition has been accomplished smoothly and there are no outstanding issue that require the G4.
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ERR, just that the G4 never delievered the goods promised for a desktop range? Mac users know it, PC users know it, and putting on sale a PowerMac G5 next to a G4 iMac you're going to be certain that a first time buyer or switcher is going to know it, hence why needs to go all G5. Its good marketing.
Maybe I want things changed too quickly, though I think for Apple a brusque change is for the best in the long run. Basically we agree with each other though just word it differently!
It should be known that many of us realize the short comings of the G4 but at the same time understand the very real issues of implementing the 970 in a low cost machine. I donot think we will see a 970 based low cost line until Apple has available to them a chip designed for low cost implementations. This may be a 970+ or it may be a '980' with its built in memory and hypertransport support. I don't know as I'm not privy to all of apples secrets, but I do know that stuffing the current chip set into an IMac or a follow on will be a challenge.
I can't wait my self as I'm well over do for a new machine. Like many I can't see an iMac at this time and I'm not willing to pay the price of the current G5 SMP towers. Frankly I want an SMP based machine and will probally just have to wait for fianaces to catch up. The one thing that is absolutely clear in my mind is that SMP is the future and Apple would do well to remove the price premium that thye apply to such systems.
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Not hard to satisfy, just a long time macuser and one that can't wait for January?
I have to agree with this statement. Because I know where you're coming from.
Excluding the G5 Tower desktops(!), the consumer desktops are laughable. The iMac gets it so right and horribly wrong at the same time!
The EMac is not an impossible imac it is simple a CRT base all in one machine, nothing more. A machine specifically designed for the education market were a CRT gives it certain advantages. That itis underpowered due to the single G4 is a given that I certain Apple will address soon.
The eMac sits on desks, it is not carried around a great deal. But and it is a big BUT the machine can be moved around very easily and not be subjected to easy damage or seperated parts. For its market it is a vary good implementation, but yes form the processor point of view it is getting on in age.
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The eMac is the 'impossible' imac that many said could or shouldn't be done due to weight problems...so, how many people actually carry an eMac?
......snipped
The iMac 2 is gorgeous (though not as much so as the Cube...) and it includes a monitor...er...and a chrome arm...a poxy 1.25 gig G4 and 'last year's' graphic card? A 20 inch iMac. An incredible machine...if you don't mind the fact that it's last year's (or is that three ago?) tech' or that you can a dual 1.8 gig G5 for a little more.
I've always liked the looks of the iMac but to be frank never bought one. My reasons may be grossly different than others but to sum up: 1. its always been underpowered, there is no reason that an IMac can't take fulll advantage of the CPU's avilable. In other words don't throttle the CPU. 2. Accessibility - I want easy access to the memory and disk drive. Maybe not toolless but not more than 5 minutes.
So here we tend to agree. I don't expect to see the absolute fastest video card in the machine but niether do I want last years performance. The same goes with the CPU, maybe not maxed out performance wise but what ever speed it is implemented at the CPU should not be additionally throttled. By this I mena running on a much slower bus interface which in the case of the G4 is a huge problem. I don't know what the furture holds for the 970 in a IMac, I'd have to say that currently it is not doable. If it is not doable then they really need to make significant strides with the G4, that is >1.8GHz with an indepedant memory interface. At this point I don't see why that is not doable on the G4 except for of course we are talking Motorola here.
Agian below we have this discussion about the eMac and the Imac. They are targeted to two differrent markets folks let it go please.
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The iMac 2 offers little more than an eMac. Processor, ram, graphics card wise. They're pretty similar. Only the stunning iMac 2 design sets them apart.
The only way that I could accept the emac being scrapped was if Apple had a replacement that fit its targetted market.
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Scrap the eMac.
While a small form factor machine has its place and really isn't a replacement for anything I do think that you have hit upon some rahter important topics.
One is the RAM compliment that Apple includes in their base machines. This is one of the marketing practices that leaves the bitterest of tastes in one mouth. It really sucks that they sel there machiens with to little memory to be usefull right out of the box. Sort of spits into the wind of plug and play.
While an AGP port is nice, I would really love to see HyperTransport right into the graphics ship. This would be technology leadership! Get AMD involved on the Intel side of the planet and it might even be cost effective.
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Replace with a mega-cheap iCube box. Pizza/cuboid/Nintendo Gamecube style small white box. Enough memory to run 'X' and iapps. Bundle cheaply with 15 inch LCD/or widescreen 17 inch. One model with built in agp.
Or a bigger iCuboid with upgradeable/config' cpu and graphics?
Re-design the iMac 2 into an iMac3.
iMac3 (the 'iCube') is made of cheaper components so all three models can break the sub-1K Sterling bracket.
OR...
Keep the iMac3 in current iMac2 bracket and redesign the base as a dock for monitor. The monitor and base are separable. The base, a little bigger...can take a standard graphics card and have three/four ram slots. they are currently occupying pro-territory and don't have pro-specs.
I see no reason why Apple can't go dual thougout its product range. Atleast everything except for the absolute lowest cost items. The performance cost trade offs are ideal for dual procssor systems and since the acutal chips that Apple are using are about half the size of those in the Intel world they can be implemented without excessive costs.
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As for the G4 towers. Design looks ugly compared to the G5 tower. The G4 looks as hotchpotched as the eMac's 'hi-carb' diet looks ass-fat. When Jan/Feb/Mar's Tower speedbumps come around? Dual the towers...but have single G5 towers at 1.8 and 2 gig at the current G4 tower prices.
Good value? Yep.
Because no doubt G5s at 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 will arrive at current price brackets.
So how we doing?
iCube £495-£695 Three models. Cheap switcher box.
iMac 3 £895-£1595 Four Models. Semi-Upgradeable pro-sumer.
Single G5 Tower £999-£1295.
Dual G5 Tower £1595-£2195.
Which is pretty much what Apple is doing right now with the G4 towers under the G5 towers...and the eMac under the iMac.
They just need to refine the line and give it the clarity and progression that the rather nice laptops have.
There's room for two pro desktop lines at a lower and higher price.
And two consumer/prosumer lines at a lower and higher price.
The problem with Apple's desktop line is that it:
Looks out of date.
The eMac and iMac2 over lap.
It's waaaaaaaay too expensive compared to the laptop line.
Underspecced.
Slow cpus.
The G4 tower and the eMac are designs OUT OF DATE.
Poor compared to Wintel competition.
Apart from the G4 tower? Inflexible. Lack expandability. At least the graphics card!
Lemon Bon Bon
So while we agre on many things the biggest issues I see are technical. Will Apple have a 970 based or a 970 replacement chip available to allow them to update these long in the tooth machines. Some rumors indicate a qualified yes is in order, but those are rumors. What is obvious is that inorder to deliver those machies with the new hardware Apple needs squeeze alot of capability into a small space. It will be interesting to see if that is possible around January. By squeeze I mean any of todays smaller form factors or those that we have been speculating about here.
Beyond the 64 bit areans there is still a bit of life left in 32 bit systems. Apple can do a lot here if the G4 or 750 manufacturing problems can be resolved. Any desktop system running a dual G4 at 1.8GHz would be an astonding improvement. But it is an issue from the delievery standpoint with Motorola. The 750 update could also be a prospect if it can be delivered for multiproccessing and at a good clock rate. Also assuming of course an Alt-vec tack on.
Thie final possibility is that Apple and IBM may have a new low power chip up their sleeves that don't fit into either the G4 or the 750 mold. In other words a new 32 bit chip. A possibility but I think it is hard to justify R&D expenses in the 32 bit world anymore.
Some fascinating reading and superbly detailed analysis.
But i think we're missing where Apples at.
The original iMac not only saved Apple but also provided a Mac that anybody felt they could own yet also felt was different, stylish, cool and crucially affordable.
The key premise of the original iMac was to allow easy internet access in a relatively cheap box (if its' not sacriligous to call it a 'box'!)
A similar product is needed now, the original iMac drove switchers to an OK operating system, now there is a great operating system that 90% of the buying public doesn't know about.
An iMac3 (or eMac2) with a 15" screen that has enough spec to run X, the iLife apps and iOffice?! well and is seriously cheap ($699) will drive Apple forward dramatically and needs to be present at MWSF. This machine crucially will also be snapped up for server based set ups.
Then Apple must advertise the strength of the software. Most people may have an idea that Apple does cool expensive hardware but they have no idea that Macs now run software that will likely beat Longhorn in 2005!
What %age of Apple users know about Panther? Let alone Windows users?
The gap between the G5 and G4 is amazing. Rest assured Apple knows this and they are working hard. The employees at Apple must be very diligent, Apple has done nothing but kick ass this past year, so let's not hear any crap, we know they're doing all they can to get the hell away from Motorola. And a Cube, for the first time, I think would be a good idea, unless G5s can get cheaper. Even still, it's a good idea, because the G5 is an absolute monster loaded with a lot of things most people don't need.
I just want one thing: an iPod with LINE IN and a MIC.
i was going to buy a pb15 for christmas, should i wait???
It's hard to say. Part of me says "buy when needed," the other part of me is like, "well Apple surprised us all last year at MWSF." Can lightning strike twice? Remember the focus is becoming more and more portables ....
I think the deletion of the iMac from the Apple line-up will floor everyone along with the introduction of the X Station as a replacement for the iMac. Apple Office will also become a reality and replace the aging Apple Works. It's about time Apple gets a new office suite as I fear that MS Office for Mac may soon be phased out the same as they are doing with IE. An update to the iPod line may also be forthcoming.8)
i was going to buy a pb15 for christmas, should i wait???
join the club...
I am in the same boat...
I need a notebook now...but I think I can wait the less than 2 months...
I would jump out the window if I bought a new 17" PB now, and in Jan. Apple releases a new form factor 17" DP PB with updated screen with a better overall specs (i.e. greater rez & nit brightness)
I know, I know...the focus is portables, and greater mobility...this is why I am holding out right now...
Comments
I am saddened by the introduction of the 20" iMac for one reason only, it seems to push back the date we can expect a G5 version. I am delighted with the screen and very pleased with the resolution and any iMac3 will have to have to include a 20" version.
For January, I really hope for three things:-
1: iPhoto - some serious optomisation and subfolder support and support for quicktime movies perhapps.
2: iDVD to support 16:9 anamorphic.
3: PowerMac speed bumps.
The only thing that bothers me is that this is normally a consumer show, so PM Speed bumps may not be on the agenda.
An outside possibility is a Video iPod. I would love to be able to rip movies from DVD and save as a quicktime movie on my Video pod, and play them on a train etc. Yes I know the screen would be very small, but I would expect a different form factor to accommodate a larger screen. If it could act as a portable storage device for digital cameras as well it would be a very serious too/gadget.
Originally posted by eddively
No kidding, there is really no thing besides displays, and i suppose updated G5s that could be put out for MWSF. HMM... I suppose it is 2 months away but this definitely signals a shift in Apple strategies.
I just gave you a list. iMac G5, PowerMac, displays (duh,) plus software. iTunes iMovie iPhoto Safari AppleWorks
Originally posted by grendal
I agree with you Luca? the desktop lineup is in a shambles and the situation will only get worse with each speed bump or Apple event.
How can one reasonable say that the desktop line up is in a shambles? There really is no justification for such a statement.
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The idea with this tradeshow is to get things in order and define a product coherence/strategy/roadmap for the year, and I don't see that happening if Apple continues to use two different processors throughout the desktop lineup.
No shows are for a number of things, one of which is new product introductions. Another is to throw wild parties.
As to your description of what a trade show is, if the present a roadmap showing where the G4 is to be used for the balance of the year (not likely for apple to give out such detals) is that not being coherent. You seem to be saying that there are problems with Apple product line due to the use of the G4 in some of that product. Why? It is a givne that Apple will eventually migrate to 970 or similar based processors in some of its consumer lines. Does that mean that these new machines will meet market requirements and sell. Nope, it just means new product has hit the market.
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I know (as well as everybody else) its not reasonable to put a G5 in the iMac or dual G5s throughout the PowerMac line, however, it makes damn good marketing and for better sales? and the $ always wins (just look at recent changes in the G5 lineup - just 100 bucks for an xtra 1.8 Ghz processor, that will make people go wow and open up the cheque book or get a visa card out! I know mine nearly did!).
First you say Apple is in a shambles and does not have a coherent product line then you turn around and say its not reasonable to put a 970 in the iMacs. You are being a bit unreasonable in that you can't have it both ways. By the way I think we will shortly see only dual G5's available, it is rather stupid to buy the single processor form factor. the market knows this, thus Apple having to rush out a dual 1.8GHz unit to get rid of those processors.
A 970 based processor would go very nicely into a iMac machine or a machine targeted at iMacs market. Now there is the real question of Apple having the chipsets to do this, but we can all agree that they are working on it, no?
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Apple need to harmonize their Desktop line up, hence the G5 throughout, though they have to differentiate the Pro and consumer lineup, hence the single and dual processor strategy? its worked before
and its working at the moment - just look at the laptop range, G4s throughout.
Now we are back to wanting the G5 throughout the line up. You are hard to satisfy here. I could make the argument that it would be better to go SMP throughout the line up but that would make people squeal.
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As for the eMac - I just don't like it! Maybe it'll stick around for a couple more revisions, the Cube 2 thing plays upon recent rumors, though the idea isn't that bad. Apple got burnt the first time round (price tag and upgrade possibilities), however, they do have a terrible habit of rehashing ideas (Spartucus became the iMac), so who knows?
Apple have never been a reasonable company, though they have been known to surprise everybody at any moment! I hope 2004 will be a year of great changes?
I wouldn't go so far as to say Apple is unreasonable, Apple does what it does to survive. One of the things that it has to do is to have products people want to buy. Computers with G4's will quickly become one of the items that people will not want. So Apple will need a response, this may either be a G4++ or a 970 based machine. the 20" imac should make it pretty obvious that there are issues with the G4 line, so we can all geuss where we are going.
Quote:
Thanks
dave
Originally posted by Addison
I am saddened by the introduction of the 20" iMac for one reason only, it seems to push back the date we can expect a G5 version. I am delighted with the screen and very pleased with the resolution and any iMac3 will have to have to include a 20" version.
it doesn't push back the g5 at all...
its there as an interim, and for apple to make some pre-christmas money. its the same base and arm as the 17", but with a different screen. so no major re-tooling or investment. its a short term interim product to catch the christmas buying period. period.
How can one reasonable say that the desktop line up is in a shambles? There really is no justification for such a statement.
I just remember the time when Apple had a coherent product grid
(the PowerMac G3 and iMac G3 etc), since then the plot has been lost a little, maybe a shambles was a harsh use of words. However, new buyers have a hard time of it trying to chose a desktop model - just go to a computer retailer (like the FNAC here in France) on a saturday and watch those poor buggers get so confused by the overlapping model configurations offered by Apple and end up buying a PC!
You seem to be saying that there are problems with Apple product line due to the use of the G4 in some of that product. Why?
ERR, just that the G4 never delievered the goods promised for a desktop range? Mac users know it, PC users know it, and putting on sale a PowerMac G5 next to a G4 iMac you're going to be certain that a first time buyer or switcher is going to know it, hence why needs to go all G5. Its good marketing.
Maybe I want things changed too quickly, though I think for Apple a brusque change is for the best in the long run. Basically we agree with each other though just word it differently!
Now we are back to wanting the G5 throughout the line up. You are hard to satisfy here.
Not hard to satisfy, just a long time macuser and one that can't wait for January?
Okay, it would take a lot of guts to release one with that name after the fiasco with the original but it makes sense to have something between the iMac and the PowerMac. It would essentially be a smaller version of the PowerMac G5 towers. It would be quite different from the original Cube design being larger and resembling the PowerMac G5 towers in appearance and construction. It would feature 1 AGP and 1 PCI slot and a choice of single 2.0 Ghz or 2.5 Ghz (possibly 90nm) G5 processors. Priced at $1599 and $1999 respectively. At the same time we get 2.0Ghz, 2.3Ghz x2 and 2.5Ghz x2 PowerMac G5 Towers and newly redesigned 17", 23" and 30" widescreen displays.
12" - remains the same as current
15" - 1GHz model is killed - 1.25 model becomes low-end 15" w/backlit keyboard, etc.
NEW:
Dual 1.25 liquid cooled 15" and 17"
Headless iMac (G5, low price, e.g. 899)
or
New Device (e.g. phone, tablet, tivo box, etc.)
Any update to the current product line is not enough for the "big show".
the desktop lineup is in a shambles and the situation will only get worse with each speed bump or Apple event.
I have to agree with this statement. Because I know where you're coming from.
Excluding the G5 Tower desktops(!), the consumer desktops are laughable. The iMac gets it so right and horribly wrong at the same time!
The eMac is the 'impossible' imac that many said could or shouldn't be done due to weight problems...so, how many people actually carry an eMac?
It's not often I have to clash swords with the 'Wizard', but on this occasion I'm differing to beg.
The eMac is a marshmallow lard ass. 'CRT is DEAD, LONG LIVE LCDS?'
Steve soon backpeddled on that when he realised the new iMac 2 line would leave Apple with no sub £1k Mac. Duh.
The eMac is a backwards step.
Most computer stores are offering dirt cheap 15 inch LCD monitors with cheap mini-towers for about the same price as an Apple eMac. AND with more ram, a DVD burner and a faster processor. It goes to show just how out of touch the eMac and iMac2 are! And those PC LCDs aren't crap either. (Apple's displays aren't the best on spec...eg 'brightness' being one such example...)
How long has the eMac got in the face of rising LCD shipments?
Only Apple are charging a premium for LCD machines.
The eMac's design is the 'glom' design that Steve Jobs derided upon the iMac 2's introduction. Irony, eh?
The iMac 2 is gorgeous (though not as much so as the Cube...) and it includes a monitor...er...and a chrome arm...a poxy 1.25 gig G4 and 'last year's' graphic card? A 20 inch iMac. An incredible machine...if you don't mind the fact that it's last year's (or is that three ago?) tech' or that you can a dual 1.8 gig G5 for a little more.
The iMac 2 offers little more than an eMac. Processor, ram, graphics card wise. They're pretty similar. Only the stunning iMac 2 design sets them apart.
Okay. So it's easy to whinge.
So what does iLemon iCeo Bon Bon i-a i-Do?
Well...
Scrap the eMac.
Replace with a mega-cheap iCube box. Pizza/cuboid/Nintendo Gamecube style small white box. Enough memory to run 'X' and iapps. Bundle cheaply with 15 inch LCD/or widescreen 17 inch. One model with built in agp.
Or a bigger iCuboid with upgradeable/config' cpu and graphics?
Re-design the iMac 2 into an iMac3.
iMac3 (the 'iCube') is made of cheaper components so all three models can break the sub-1K Sterling bracket.
OR...
Keep the iMac3 in current iMac2 bracket and redesign the base as a dock for monitor. The monitor and base are separable. The base, a little bigger...can take a standard graphics card and have three/four ram slots. they are currently occupying pro-territory and don't have pro-specs.
As for the G4 towers. Design looks ugly compared to the G5 tower. The G4 looks as hotchpotched as the eMac's 'hi-carb' diet looks ass-fat. When Jan/Feb/Mar's Tower speedbumps come around? Dual the towers...but have single G5 towers at 1.8 and 2 gig at the current G4 tower prices.
Good value? Yep.
Because no doubt G5s at 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 will arrive at current price brackets.
So how we doing?
iCube £495-£695 Three models. Cheap switcher box.
iMac 3 £895-£1595 Four Models. Semi-Upgradeable pro-sumer.
Single G5 Tower £999-£1295.
Dual G5 Tower £1595-£2195.
Which is pretty much what Apple is doing right now with the G4 towers under the G5 towers...and the eMac under the iMac.
They just need to refine the line and give it the clarity and progression that the rather nice laptops have.
There's room for two pro desktop lines at a lower and higher price.
And two consumer/prosumer lines at a lower and higher price.
The problem with Apple's desktop line is that it:
Looks out of date.
The eMac and iMac2 over lap.
It's waaaaaaaay too expensive compared to the laptop line.
Underspecced.
Slow cpus.
The G4 tower and the eMac are designs OUT OF DATE.
Poor compared to Wintel competition.
Apart from the G4 tower? Inflexible. Lack expandability. At least the graphics card!
Lemon Bon Bon
They had done so in a couple of months from Jan-Feb last year!
Well, San Fran' usually kickstarts the Apple year and sets the theme.
I wonder what theme the master showman will set for us this coming year?
I expect a surprise.
Some little surprises.
1. A device.
2. No device? Then a redesigned iMac '3'..? If this doesn't make the San Fran' because of the current screen bump then it will come later in the Spring. Which would leave us with perhaps a...
3. Headless consumer box to take on the 'growth' market. But it will have an Apple twist.
4. I'd expect faster towers announced. If not, they'll be announced late Feb'.
5. More software. Definitely more software. We MAY yet get the iWorks office suite. Some new iapps. Maybe iChat for Windows. A good profit maker?
All to be announced at once?
Nope.
1. Revision of what iPods/Stores are doing.
2. More Software.
3. One major hardware surprise...
4. ...and another 'minor' one eg ProTower getting bumps.
I'm thinking it's been a while since the iPod...I'd be surprised if another digital lifestyle device is not in the works.
But I'm confident alot of the above will come in time anyhow.
The main concern for me is that inspite of every good thing Apple is doing the 'Switch' campaign hasn't made the impact I would have thought. I think this is largely due to the confusion in Apple's consumer range. The lack of a true £500 machine and a lack of awareness in consumer minds of the Apple brand. US Apple stores...great...but where's the international stores? Where's the advertising? Does anybody know there is a 'Mac OS X'?
Apple still aren't actively taking the fight to Windows in a way that's direct and will get them sales...and growth.
It was interesting that Apple's own people at the shareholder meeting said as much.
This year's San Fran' should be very interesting. Apple's definitely moving in the right direction...
Lemon Bon Bon
I think Apple will be placing more and more focus on portables, than on consumer desktops. I think Steve Jobs said at the analyst's meeting that the shift has been placed by consumers towards notebooks over desktops -- and I'll betcha that's where the focus will be at MWSF 04. That and apps.
Originally posted by grendal
Thanks Wizard69 for some constructive criticism
As opposed to th numerous overlapping and competeing models in the Intel compatable PC arena? If taken as a whole there is very little overlap in Apples ranges of equipment. The EMac is a product of demand in the educaton sector nothing more, Apple just happens to also sell it retail. Then you have the IMacs and the G5s, how anyone could describe those as over lapping is beyond me! Taken as a whole the Intel side is much more variable in its offerings, I doubt very much that people choose the dark side simple because of confusion with the Mac line. Apple would do well to figure out why people choose the Intel compatiable route, but often it comes down to choice and value. Apple needs to put more effort into sales based on value.
Quote:
I just remember the time when Apple had a coherent product grid
(the PowerMac G3 and iMac G3 etc), since then the plot has been lost a little, maybe a shambles was a harsh use of words. However, new buyers have a hard time of it trying to chose a desktop model - just go to a computer retailer (like the FNAC here in France) on a saturday and watch those poor buggers get so confused by the overlapping model configurations offered by Apple and end up buying a PC!
The G4 tower exist because a good manufacture is not going to simply abandon previous customers and force completely new technology down their throats. The G4 tower will go away as soon as Apple is confident that the transition has been accomplished smoothly and there are no outstanding issue that require the G4.
Quote:
ERR, just that the G4 never delievered the goods promised for a desktop range? Mac users know it, PC users know it, and putting on sale a PowerMac G5 next to a G4 iMac you're going to be certain that a first time buyer or switcher is going to know it, hence why needs to go all G5. Its good marketing.
Maybe I want things changed too quickly, though I think for Apple a brusque change is for the best in the long run. Basically we agree with each other though just word it differently!
It should be known that many of us realize the short comings of the G4 but at the same time understand the very real issues of implementing the 970 in a low cost machine. I donot think we will see a 970 based low cost line until Apple has available to them a chip designed for low cost implementations. This may be a 970+ or it may be a '980' with its built in memory and hypertransport support. I don't know as I'm not privy to all of apples secrets, but I do know that stuffing the current chip set into an IMac or a follow on will be a challenge.
I can't wait my self as I'm well over do for a new machine. Like many I can't see an iMac at this time and I'm not willing to pay the price of the current G5 SMP towers. Frankly I want an SMP based machine and will probally just have to wait for fianaces to catch up. The one thing that is absolutely clear in my mind is that SMP is the future and Apple would do well to remove the price premium that thye apply to such systems.
Quote:
Not hard to satisfy, just a long time macuser and one that can't wait for January?
Originally posted by Lemon Bon Bon
I have to agree with this statement. Because I know where you're coming from.
Excluding the G5 Tower desktops(!), the consumer desktops are laughable. The iMac gets it so right and horribly wrong at the same time!
The EMac is not an impossible imac it is simple a CRT base all in one machine, nothing more. A machine specifically designed for the education market were a CRT gives it certain advantages. That itis underpowered due to the single G4 is a given that I certain Apple will address soon.
The eMac sits on desks, it is not carried around a great deal. But and it is a big BUT the machine can be moved around very easily and not be subjected to easy damage or seperated parts. For its market it is a vary good implementation, but yes form the processor point of view it is getting on in age.
Quote:
The eMac is the 'impossible' imac that many said could or shouldn't be done due to weight problems...so, how many people actually carry an eMac?
......snipped
The iMac 2 is gorgeous (though not as much so as the Cube...) and it includes a monitor...er...and a chrome arm...a poxy 1.25 gig G4 and 'last year's' graphic card? A 20 inch iMac. An incredible machine...if you don't mind the fact that it's last year's (or is that three ago?) tech' or that you can a dual 1.8 gig G5 for a little more.
I've always liked the looks of the iMac but to be frank never bought one. My reasons may be grossly different than others but to sum up: 1. its always been underpowered, there is no reason that an IMac can't take fulll advantage of the CPU's avilable. In other words don't throttle the CPU. 2. Accessibility - I want easy access to the memory and disk drive. Maybe not toolless but not more than 5 minutes.
So here we tend to agree. I don't expect to see the absolute fastest video card in the machine but niether do I want last years performance. The same goes with the CPU, maybe not maxed out performance wise but what ever speed it is implemented at the CPU should not be additionally throttled. By this I mena running on a much slower bus interface which in the case of the G4 is a huge problem. I don't know what the furture holds for the 970 in a IMac, I'd have to say that currently it is not doable. If it is not doable then they really need to make significant strides with the G4, that is >1.8GHz with an indepedant memory interface. At this point I don't see why that is not doable on the G4 except for of course we are talking Motorola here.
Agian below we have this discussion about the eMac and the Imac. They are targeted to two differrent markets folks let it go please.
Quote:
The iMac 2 offers little more than an eMac. Processor, ram, graphics card wise. They're pretty similar. Only the stunning iMac 2 design sets them apart.
The only way that I could accept the emac being scrapped was if Apple had a replacement that fit its targetted market.
Quote:
Scrap the eMac.
While a small form factor machine has its place and really isn't a replacement for anything I do think that you have hit upon some rahter important topics.
One is the RAM compliment that Apple includes in their base machines. This is one of the marketing practices that leaves the bitterest of tastes in one mouth. It really sucks that they sel there machiens with to little memory to be usefull right out of the box. Sort of spits into the wind of plug and play.
While an AGP port is nice, I would really love to see HyperTransport right into the graphics ship. This would be technology leadership! Get AMD involved on the Intel side of the planet and it might even be cost effective.
Quote:
Replace with a mega-cheap iCube box. Pizza/cuboid/Nintendo Gamecube style small white box. Enough memory to run 'X' and iapps. Bundle cheaply with 15 inch LCD/or widescreen 17 inch. One model with built in agp.
Or a bigger iCuboid with upgradeable/config' cpu and graphics?
Re-design the iMac 2 into an iMac3.
iMac3 (the 'iCube') is made of cheaper components so all three models can break the sub-1K Sterling bracket.
OR...
Keep the iMac3 in current iMac2 bracket and redesign the base as a dock for monitor. The monitor and base are separable. The base, a little bigger...can take a standard graphics card and have three/four ram slots. they are currently occupying pro-territory and don't have pro-specs.
I see no reason why Apple can't go dual thougout its product range. Atleast everything except for the absolute lowest cost items. The performance cost trade offs are ideal for dual procssor systems and since the acutal chips that Apple are using are about half the size of those in the Intel world they can be implemented without excessive costs.
Quote:
As for the G4 towers. Design looks ugly compared to the G5 tower. The G4 looks as hotchpotched as the eMac's 'hi-carb' diet looks ass-fat. When Jan/Feb/Mar's Tower speedbumps come around? Dual the towers...but have single G5 towers at 1.8 and 2 gig at the current G4 tower prices.
Good value? Yep.
Because no doubt G5s at 2.2, 2.4 and 2.6 will arrive at current price brackets.
So how we doing?
iCube £495-£695 Three models. Cheap switcher box.
iMac 3 £895-£1595 Four Models. Semi-Upgradeable pro-sumer.
Single G5 Tower £999-£1295.
Dual G5 Tower £1595-£2195.
Which is pretty much what Apple is doing right now with the G4 towers under the G5 towers...and the eMac under the iMac.
They just need to refine the line and give it the clarity and progression that the rather nice laptops have.
There's room for two pro desktop lines at a lower and higher price.
And two consumer/prosumer lines at a lower and higher price.
The problem with Apple's desktop line is that it:
Looks out of date.
The eMac and iMac2 over lap.
It's waaaaaaaay too expensive compared to the laptop line.
Underspecced.
Slow cpus.
The G4 tower and the eMac are designs OUT OF DATE.
Poor compared to Wintel competition.
Apart from the G4 tower? Inflexible. Lack expandability. At least the graphics card!
Lemon Bon Bon
So while we agre on many things the biggest issues I see are technical. Will Apple have a 970 based or a 970 replacement chip available to allow them to update these long in the tooth machines. Some rumors indicate a qualified yes is in order, but those are rumors. What is obvious is that inorder to deliver those machies with the new hardware Apple needs squeeze alot of capability into a small space. It will be interesting to see if that is possible around January. By squeeze I mean any of todays smaller form factors or those that we have been speculating about here.
Beyond the 64 bit areans there is still a bit of life left in 32 bit systems. Apple can do a lot here if the G4 or 750 manufacturing problems can be resolved. Any desktop system running a dual G4 at 1.8GHz would be an astonding improvement. But it is an issue from the delievery standpoint with Motorola. The 750 update could also be a prospect if it can be delivered for multiproccessing and at a good clock rate. Also assuming of course an Alt-vec tack on.
Thie final possibility is that Apple and IBM may have a new low power chip up their sleeves that don't fit into either the G4 or the 750 mold. In other words a new 32 bit chip. A possibility but I think it is hard to justify R&D expenses in the 32 bit world anymore.
Thanks
Dave
Lemon Bon Bon
But i think we're missing where Apples at.
The original iMac not only saved Apple but also provided a Mac that anybody felt they could own yet also felt was different, stylish, cool and crucially affordable.
The key premise of the original iMac was to allow easy internet access in a relatively cheap box (if its' not sacriligous to call it a 'box'!)
A similar product is needed now, the original iMac drove switchers to an OK operating system, now there is a great operating system that 90% of the buying public doesn't know about.
An iMac3 (or eMac2) with a 15" screen that has enough spec to run X, the iLife apps and iOffice?! well and is seriously cheap ($699) will drive Apple forward dramatically and needs to be present at MWSF. This machine crucially will also be snapped up for server based set ups.
Then Apple must advertise the strength of the software. Most people may have an idea that Apple does cool expensive hardware but they have no idea that Macs now run software that will likely beat Longhorn in 2005!
What %age of Apple users know about Panther? Let alone Windows users?
I just want one thing: an iPod with LINE IN and a MIC.
Originally posted by NOFEER
i was going to buy a pb15 for christmas, should i wait???
It's hard to say. Part of me says "buy when needed," the other part of me is like, "well Apple surprised us all last year at MWSF." Can lightning strike twice? Remember the focus is becoming more and more portables ....
Originally posted by NOFEER
i was going to buy a pb15 for christmas, should i wait???
join the club...
I am in the same boat...
I need a notebook now...but I think I can wait the less than 2 months...
I would jump out the window if I bought a new 17" PB now, and in Jan. Apple releases a new form factor 17" DP PB with updated screen with a better overall specs (i.e. greater rez & nit brightness)
I know, I know...the focus is portables, and greater mobility...this is why I am holding out right now...
lates...