It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window. Why would you want it to stay open when you closed the window? Seems kinda pointless to me.
It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window. Why would you want it to stay open when you closed the window? Seems kinda pointless to me.
Because when I close the window I'm telling it to "Close" and not "Quit <Application>." Why should I expect one app to be different than another? Why should the red widget mean something else entirely from one app to the next?
Because every app has the potential to gain functionality, like I described in an app as simple as the Calculator. So if the System Preferences gets added functionality in the Dock menu, will it revert back to not quitting when the window is closed? Isn't it easier to just assume that app won't quit when you "Close Window" and will quit when you "Quit <Application>???"
Microsoftian UI behavior should not apply to Mac OS.
EDIT:
Now check out Calculator and System Preferences. Command-W works right? Now check out iMovie. Where the hell is Command-W? And what about iSync? See how iSync has a Menu Extra? Why should it quit when I can clearly control it without its single-window open? This is shoddy UI consistency at its worst.
Quite frankly I'm shocked and dismayed by the support for this CRAPPY new direction Apple is heading in.
It's especially disconcerting coming from a person who has "In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows" as a signature. Having apps quit when you close them is basically a Microsoft Windows concept born out of necessity because they don't have a global menubar (a huge transparent window). No app in Mac OS is a true single-window application.
Hmm, I'm not sure that the single-window application close-app / close-window debate has all that much to do with the Dock, Eugene's gossamer-thin tissue of connective reasoning notwithstanding.
Er, what does the single-window application close-app / close-window debate have to do with the Dock?
Applications gain functionality through the Dock. Control-click on any app's icon. Even if there aren't any app specific options in the Dock menu, there is always the capacity to gain some.
The Dock is also a visual aid for applications. Mail, a multi-window app tells you how many new messages you have. iCal, a single-window app, tells you what day of the month it is in the Dock.
But back to the original topic, I understand the reasoning behind the visual new tab switcher. It puts the visual feedback in the center of the screen where it is most visible. That's the most important thing.
With regard to System Preferences, Eugene is absolutely correct. When System Preferences is open, it allows you to change various system aspects, yes? But, you always have to go throw the main System Preferences Window. That means an extra click (an extra time to wait for the window to load and change panes).
However, System Preferences has a DOCK MENU! When System Preferences is open, you can access any preference panes via the dock menu. But wait, I can't access the dock menu is the application isn't open, right? Well, shucks, let me click on that little red button, close the System Preferences Window, but leave the Application open so that I can get to whatever Pref Pane I want to in a much quicker manner. Shit, I can't, because closing the window quits the entire Application. That's good UI design being trumped by bad UI design.
And yes, this does relate to the dock.
Edit: And in Panther, the calculator is NOT a single window app. The paper tape has its own window, but if both the paper tape and the calculator are open, and you close the calculator, it quits the ENTIRE app!
This is frustrating to me too. Closing the last window in an app should never Quit the app. The System Preferences change in Panther is just ridiculous.
Having an application quit when you close a window is weird, frustrating and unnecessary. When I realised that System Preferences does that now it was terribly depressing- Apple actually went to the trouble to put it in.
They must actually want it. So why iPhoto still does it and they decided to make iCal a bit more sensible in this regard is kinda odd. And they may as well get rid of that Dock Menu thing for System Preferences now. Or else be sensible and let the damn app behave a grown up.
Hassan i Sabbah, funny thing about iPhoto is that the Order Prints or HomePage button actually loads a separate window...and when that window is open, you can close the main viewer window and the app won't quit! Isn't that fricking crazy?! In this case we have a multi-window app that closes when the last window is closed...
Yet another inconsistency in quitting/closing behavior.
Yet another inconsistency in quitting/closing behavior.
Just to backup Eugene here: quitting the application while closing its last window is, IMHO, a serious UI inconsistency. I really don't understand why Apple take this way while they have great chances with each OS X release to correct this.
I think the main reason for having the red widget close a window and not quit in some circumstances is because applications need to load. This is logical, most apps stay running when you close the window so you still have access to the program without starting it up again.
Microsoft Word lets you close the window, and CMD-N will start a new document without having to load the whole program again, and it uses less memory. It also serves great purpose to keep the app running when you are looking for files, or when you want to open another file, drag and drop it onto the running app's icon and up pops the document with no app load times.
This is why I hate Quicktime on the Windows PC. You are looking through lots of movies, and the first time you want to open one, QuickTime has to load, but then you don't want that movie, so you press the 'X' , and the whole of QuickTime closes, making you load it up again when you want to watch another movie, instead of having everything ready so that the new movie will just play.
You have to have one movie already open to avoid loading when you open a new movie. This is stupid and a memory hog.
Also, by default, QuickTime opens a new blank movie when launched, if you close this movie in Windows, then QT quits. There's no menu bar for applications in Windows, so you can't "Open movie" once the application's window is gone, this is very very annoying.
The logical law for the behavior of the red widget should be:
Apps with one window that do not have the CMD-N command, should quit when the red widget is pressed.
Apps that do let you create or open multiple windows should stay running after CMD-W.
Anyway, the dock itself, I have no grudges with. It works, and it works well. The new app switcher should have settings allowing those that don't like it to switch back to the old way. But I like the fact that you get to see the apps' icons at full size for once, and it's clear, and easy to click on the app you want. Looks and acts better than the Windows one at any rate..
Quite frankly I'm shocked and dismayed by the support for this CRAPPY new direction Apple is heading in.
It's especially disconcerting coming from a person who has "In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows" as a signature. Having apps quit when you close them is basically a Microsoft Windows concept born out of necessity because they don't have a global menubar (a huge transparent window). No app in Mac OS is a true single-window application.
hey, eugene, i feel for ya. it happens all the time when i am designing a logo or web site or newletter for something, and a client is insistent on doing the wrong thing communication-wise, because they "prefer" an alternate way. sometimes it's just a losing battle, i cut my losses, and include the CORRECT and BEST logo for my portfolio, but give them the weaker method instead. i figure, they'll eventually learn their lesson, and if they don't, hell, i won't be around to watch the fallout.
so, in the end, i agree with you... even though i do PREFER the new system preferences close=quit method.
No, get 10.3 definitely. It's just Placebo's "time of the month". When Mac OS X came out, people complained there wasn't enough choice in the OS. Now people complain there's too much choice. It's AppleInsider, Go Figure?.
Barto
What!? I was just stating that Apple is all about consistency and solid metaphors, and that Apple usually wants a solid, defined purpose for each element of OS X. This is a good topic, and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss.
That's all I'm saying, and you can keep your little attacks to yourself, thank you very much. I love 10.3. It was worth all of my $20.
Eugene: It makes sense. Who wants System Preferences to run in the background? iTunes runs with windows closed for a reason, and so does the Finder. But Preferences? It makes sense for the app to quit when the window closes, in my opinion.
Comments
Originally posted by Eugene
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!
It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window. Why would you want it to stay open when you closed the window? Seems kinda pointless to me.
Originally posted by DMBand0026
It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window. Why would you want it to stay open when you closed the window? Seems kinda pointless to me.
Because when I close the window I'm telling it to "Close" and not "Quit <Application>." Why should I expect one app to be different than another? Why should the red widget mean something else entirely from one app to the next?
Because every app has the potential to gain functionality, like I described in an app as simple as the Calculator. So if the System Preferences gets added functionality in the Dock menu, will it revert back to not quitting when the window is closed? Isn't it easier to just assume that app won't quit when you "Close Window" and will quit when you "Quit <Application>???"
Microsoftian UI behavior should not apply to Mac OS.
EDIT:
Now check out Calculator and System Preferences. Command-W works right? Now check out iMovie. Where the hell is Command-W? And what about iSync? See how iSync has a Menu Extra? Why should it quit when I can clearly control it without its single-window open? This is shoddy UI consistency at its worst.
Originally posted by DMBand0026
It's better this way, I always got pissed off when it didn't quit when I closed the window.
Exactly
Quite frankly I'm shocked and dismayed by the support for this CRAPPY new direction Apple is heading in.
It's especially disconcerting coming from a person who has "In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows" as a signature. Having apps quit when you close them is basically a Microsoft Windows concept born out of necessity because they don't have a global menubar (a huge transparent window). No app in Mac OS is a true single-window application.
What about iCal then? Why doesn't it quit when you close the window? It's a single-window app. Explain that one...
Originally posted by Eugene
DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE!!!
ah hahahahahaha
Now that's pissed me off alot.
Originally posted by Hobbes
Er, what does the single-window application close-app / close-window debate have to do with the Dock?
Applications gain functionality through the Dock. Control-click on any app's icon. Even if there aren't any app specific options in the Dock menu, there is always the capacity to gain some.
The Dock is also a visual aid for applications. Mail, a multi-window app tells you how many new messages you have. iCal, a single-window app, tells you what day of the month it is in the Dock.
But back to the original topic, I understand the reasoning behind the visual new tab switcher. It puts the visual feedback in the center of the screen where it is most visible. That's the most important thing.
However, System Preferences has a DOCK MENU! When System Preferences is open, you can access any preference panes via the dock menu. But wait, I can't access the dock menu is the application isn't open, right? Well, shucks, let me click on that little red button, close the System Preferences Window, but leave the Application open so that I can get to whatever Pref Pane I want to in a much quicker manner. Shit, I can't, because closing the window quits the entire Application. That's good UI design being trumped by bad UI design.
And yes, this does relate to the dock.
Edit: And in Panther, the calculator is NOT a single window app. The paper tape has its own window, but if both the paper tape and the calculator are open, and you close the calculator, it quits the ENTIRE app!
They must actually want it. So why iPhoto still does it and they decided to make iCal a bit more sensible in this regard is kinda odd. And they may as well get rid of that Dock Menu thing for System Preferences now. Or else be sensible and let the damn app behave a grown up.
Yet another inconsistency in quitting/closing behavior.
Originally posted by Eugene
Yet another inconsistency in quitting/closing behavior.
Just to backup Eugene here: quitting the application while closing its last window is, IMHO, a serious UI inconsistency. I really don't understand why Apple take this way while they have great chances with each OS X release to correct this.
Originally posted by JLL
You're probably running LiteSwitch.
Nope - or at least not my knowledge - somebody else with 10.2.6. try this out and tell me that I'm not the only one who can achieve this!
Microsoft Word lets you close the window, and CMD-N will start a new document without having to load the whole program again, and it uses less memory. It also serves great purpose to keep the app running when you are looking for files, or when you want to open another file, drag and drop it onto the running app's icon and up pops the document with no app load times.
This is why I hate Quicktime on the Windows PC. You are looking through lots of movies, and the first time you want to open one, QuickTime has to load, but then you don't want that movie, so you press the 'X' , and the whole of QuickTime closes, making you load it up again when you want to watch another movie, instead of having everything ready so that the new movie will just play.
You have to have one movie already open to avoid loading when you open a new movie. This is stupid and a memory hog.
Also, by default, QuickTime opens a new blank movie when launched, if you close this movie in Windows, then QT quits. There's no menu bar for applications in Windows, so you can't "Open movie" once the application's window is gone, this is very very annoying.
The logical law for the behavior of the red widget should be:
Apps with one window that do not have the CMD-N command, should quit when the red widget is pressed.
Apps that do let you create or open multiple windows should stay running after CMD-W.
Anyway, the dock itself, I have no grudges with. It works, and it works well. The new app switcher should have settings allowing those that don't like it to switch back to the old way. But I like the fact that you get to see the apps' icons at full size for once, and it's clear, and easy to click on the app you want. Looks and acts better than the Windows one at any rate..
Jimzip
Originally posted by Mac+
Nope - or at least not my knowledge - somebody else with 10.2.6. try this out and tell me that I'm not the only one who can achieve this!
In 10.2.6 it shows the app in the dock like this:
In 10.3 it pops up in the middle of the screen like the pic that Hobbes posted.
Originally posted by Eugene
So nobody's going to tackle my questions then?
Quite frankly I'm shocked and dismayed by the support for this CRAPPY new direction Apple is heading in.
It's especially disconcerting coming from a person who has "In a world without doors or walls, there is no need for Gates or Windows" as a signature. Having apps quit when you close them is basically a Microsoft Windows concept born out of necessity because they don't have a global menubar (a huge transparent window). No app in Mac OS is a true single-window application.
hey, eugene, i feel for ya. it happens all the time when i am designing a logo or web site or newletter for something, and a client is insistent on doing the wrong thing communication-wise, because they "prefer" an alternate way. sometimes it's just a losing battle, i cut my losses, and include the CORRECT and BEST logo for my portfolio, but give them the weaker method instead. i figure, they'll eventually learn their lesson, and if they don't, hell, i won't be around to watch the fallout.
so, in the end, i agree with you... even though i do PREFER the new system preferences close=quit method.
Originally posted by Barto
No, get 10.3 definitely. It's just Placebo's "time of the month". When Mac OS X came out, people complained there wasn't enough choice in the OS. Now people complain there's too much choice. It's AppleInsider, Go Figure?.
Barto
What!? I was just stating that Apple is all about consistency and solid metaphors, and that Apple usually wants a solid, defined purpose for each element of OS X. This is a good topic, and I thought that it would be interesting to discuss.
That's all I'm saying, and you can keep your little attacks to yourself, thank you very much. I love 10.3. It was worth all of my $20.
Eugene: It makes sense. Who wants System Preferences to run in the background? iTunes runs with windows closed for a reason, and so does the Finder. But Preferences? It makes sense for the app to quit when the window closes, in my opinion.