This is frustrating to me too. Closing the last window in an app should never Quit the app. The System Preferences change in Panther is just ridiculous.
i liked the fact that the "trash/wastebasket" allowed for a last second retrieval of stuff destined for the ether. call it paranoia, but it always made me feel as though i had a safety net.
but i do agree with you that having INDIVIDUAL ADDITIONAL TRASH folders in other apps is downright maddening.
Anyway, one really inconsistent thing about Macs is how they delete things. If you press the delete key in a word processor, the letter is deleted IMMEDIATELY but if you delete something in Finder, it goes to the trash and you have to delete it AGAIN by emptying the trash. Then you get into iPhoto and its own trash, and iTunes where it asks if you want to remove it from your library and move to the trash, etc. So inconsistent.
If I press the delete key in the Finder, nothing happens. Command-Delete is different from Delete itself.
As for why there are multiple Trash cans in iApps and the Finder, you can choose to interpret it like this. The Trash that lives in the Dock is the facility for file deletion in the application we know as the Finder. The trash can in iMovie is the iMovie equivalent. It exists in iMovie as the main trash can exists in the Finder.
You can delete files in iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc. by dragging the files to the Trash icon in the dock, but they won't move the files there. That is admittedly a questionable feature as files dragged to the trash in such a manner do not actually get placed in the trash...they are simply erased.
It really depends. Frankly, it would be a very cool thing if all Apple apps deleted files into the Trash can where they could be recovered as needed or confirmed for complete erasure.
More nitpicking please! Maybe we'll spawn some cool ideas...
Yeah, Apple sort of misses a good opportunity with having the user's Trash in the Dock, therefore accessible to all apps.
Seems to me that a lot of these issues potentially all have a common denominator. I think the issues people have with the Dock, metal windows, quitting when closing a window, the Trash icon, etc. can all be resolved in a rather elegant way all at once. Apple hasn't gotten their collective act together with regard to the Human Interface Guidelines. I having trouble explaining this as I write, but it's like there's one word, one concept that glues them all together (plus some third party apps with them) that would collect all these inconsistencies into a single category of use, behavior and appearance. Something beyond the "digital hub" container, something more flexible and inclusive.
It's like iTunes, iPhoto, iCal, the Panther Finder and maybe even Mail are all indexes. That is, they don't create content per se, they manage them. (Mail being sort ofin between: it both manages and creates content.) You could probably say the same for Safari, but probably not for iMovie or iDVD right now. If you had something like QT's favorites in a single app, you would be closer to a true "iMovie" in the same family as iTunes from that perspective. The index/management apps all could use a (primarily) single window UI that uses the metal appearance, uses the quit-on-window close behavior (preferably with a modified close widget sort of like the dot for modified files is a warning), they should all use the Dock Trash as their common receptacle, and all that.
It's funny, Apple's HI teams are working on actual projects rather than working in an ivory tower. It seems to have its benefits and faults. On the one hand, I think Apple has introduced some nice new ideas to some apps' user experiences. On the other, it's like no one is keeping everyone on the same page with regard to these ideas. It's like some teams find these things out when we do, but at least they see it in action, they don't just read about it in some white paper.
As for the Dock, the original topic at hand, well, I know since I started using Panther, as as I use Expose more and more, I've started leaving my Dock hidden most of the time since I don't minimize windows much any more, and I open most apps I need on startup and go through the much more convenient Finder for the others. I thought the app switching via the Dock was rather elegant if too subtle I suppose. Losing the Dock in the ned for what I consider a more direct way of working is rather nice. The Dock might have an identity crisis, but maybe it can gain a new identity. Maybe we'll see the return of a split Dock a la NeXT and OpenStep so you only use the half that's useful to you. Maybe we'll see the return of Docklets as the menubar gets more crowded for oft-used functions (though I took the volume and eject menulings off some time ago). Maybe the Dock can incorporate more clipboard-like and shelf-like functions for temporary storage and management (another management app? ) of all these floating and often too-hidden bits of data we juggle all the time. Maybe it incorporates multiple workspaces and stores workflow settings and arrangements (like the snapshot script from Apple's Applescript site). 10.4 could be a real opportunity for the Dock to get a major overhaul like the Panther Finder (which will hopefully have some important improvements of its own).
MDI means multiple documents per window, not one document per application. Think Opera for Windows (or Photoshop for Windows), not Notepad. Tabbed interfaces are a form of MDI.
As for the Dock, its central principle has always been "if you want it, click it." Dock menus follow cleanly from that - you still want something from whatever you're clicking on. Command-Tab interacts with applications in a different way that the Dock isn't as well suited to, and Apple's attempt to map it to the Dock were generally considered unsuccessful, so it's not too surprising that they came up with another, clearer behavior.
Anyway, one really inconsistent thing about Macs is how they delete things. If you press the delete key in a word processor, the letter is deleted IMMEDIATELY but if you delete something in Finder, it goes to the trash and you have to delete it AGAIN by emptying the trash. Then you get into iPhoto and its own trash, and iTunes where it asks if you want to remove it from your library and move to the trash, etc. So inconsistent.
Deleting a word in a word processing program is far different-far less destructive-from deleting a file. You are correct, though, that it's difficult to manage things at the file level among the iApps because of their disparate interfaces. The big problem is there isn't a great way to differentiate between the removal of a symbolic link (pressing delete after selecting a song in an iTunes playlist) vs. the true deletion of a file (pressing delete after selecting a song from the iTunes library). The other poster made an incisive comment-Apple failed to take advantage of user-wide trash icon access. Consistent behavior would be to have all real files go over to the user trash, rather than a trash internal to each application. Alas, Jobs likes the concept of other applications being in charge of specific resources, and so that's how we get trash can inconsistencies. Either all the iApps that deal with real files should have their own trash can, or they should all rely on the user-wide trash (like iTunes does). It's really too bad that no one's paying attention to these UI inconsistencies, and I'm afraid things will only get worse.
User has a browser with three tabs open. He presses Cmd-whatever to close one of the pages he's reading. He does the same to the next, but somehow Cmd-whatever wonøt close the last page since he needs to close the window using Cmd-W instead.
How about cmd-shift-W for tabs? That would be simply fabulous. Can you do this via the Keyboard shortcuts PreferencePane? (Sorry, I'm not at my comp)
I for one agree with you Eugene. It's good to be able to have the option to close the window of an app and keep it open (even the preferences) so that you can clear the desk and keep it running in the background for quicker access next time you need to use it (ie don't have to completely relaunch the program).
Hiding is fine for short periods where you want to reduce clutter. Closing a window more closes emulates the behavior I want most of the time. And as for new windows popping up after you bring an app to the front, I'd also like the option for new windows not to pop up when I switch to them.
a window can represent several files at once. Think of most applications in Windows like the Adobe suite of apps: they have one big "parent" window and a bunch of smaller windows trapped inside that are your actual documents. Also, tabbed UIs like in Safari are also a form of MDI.
Parent and child windows are unspeakably evil, and that's what most people mean by "MDI". Tabs can be useful, especially in apps like web browsers where you'll often be viewing lots of unrelated "documents" and usually don't need to see more than one at once.
Regarding Cmd-W, I know it's technically "inconsistent" to close the tab, but it's also closer to "do what I want". I want to close a single tab far more often than I want to close all of them, and Cmd-W is a natural way to do that since I think of tabs as just a convenient form of window management. And the "consistent" Cmd-W action can be very destructive, so I don't mind erring on the side of safety.
Parent and child windows are unspeakably evil, and that's what most people mean by "MDI". Tabs can be useful, especially in apps like web browsers where you'll often be viewing lots of unrelated "documents" and usually don't need to see more than one at once.
Regarding Cmd-W, I know it's technically "inconsistent" to close the tab, but it's also closer to "do what I want". I want to close a single tab far more often than I want to close all of them, and Cmd-W is a natural way to do that since I think of tabs as just a convenient form of window management. And the "consistent" Cmd-W action can be very destructive, so I don't mind erring on the side of safety.
Right on, 3.1416. Non-destructive (and frequent!) behavior absolutely trump the ideal of letter-perfect consistency. Consistency is a important principle, but it can't get in the way of good UI -- different apps occasionally have to work differently, depending on how they operate.
Apple made the right choice with command-W closing a tab in Safari.
Apple made the right choice with command-W closing a tab in Safari.
No they didn't. You mean to tell me they 100+ key keyboards and we somehow need to share command-key combinations for such integral actions as closing windows and something else? Please...
Why not shift-command-w or shift-command-t or option-command-t.
Comments
Originally posted by murbot
This is frustrating to me too. Closing the last window in an app should never Quit the app. The System Preferences change in Panther is just ridiculous.
disagree, like it that way.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
Oh, and when I open a new browser window it always is shifted a small amount to the right, so the right edge falls off the screen.
So just open it in a tab
i liked the fact that the "trash/wastebasket" allowed for a last second retrieval of stuff destined for the ether. call it paranoia, but it always made me feel as though i had a safety net.
but i do agree with you that having INDIVIDUAL ADDITIONAL TRASH folders in other apps is downright maddening.
Originally posted by Luca Rescigno
Anyway, one really inconsistent thing about Macs is how they delete things. If you press the delete key in a word processor, the letter is deleted IMMEDIATELY but if you delete something in Finder, it goes to the trash and you have to delete it AGAIN by emptying the trash. Then you get into iPhoto and its own trash, and iTunes where it asks if you want to remove it from your library and move to the trash, etc. So inconsistent.
If I press the delete key in the Finder, nothing happens. Command-Delete is different from Delete itself.
As for why there are multiple Trash cans in iApps and the Finder, you can choose to interpret it like this. The Trash that lives in the Dock is the facility for file deletion in the application we know as the Finder. The trash can in iMovie is the iMovie equivalent. It exists in iMovie as the main trash can exists in the Finder.
You can delete files in iPhoto, iTunes, iMovie, etc. by dragging the files to the Trash icon in the dock, but they won't move the files there. That is admittedly a questionable feature as files dragged to the trash in such a manner do not actually get placed in the trash...they are simply erased.
It really depends. Frankly, it would be a very cool thing if all Apple apps deleted files into the Trash can where they could be recovered as needed or confirmed for complete erasure.
More nitpicking please! Maybe we'll spawn some cool ideas...
Seems to me that a lot of these issues potentially all have a common denominator. I think the issues people have with the Dock, metal windows, quitting when closing a window, the Trash icon, etc. can all be resolved in a rather elegant way all at once. Apple hasn't gotten their collective act together with regard to the Human Interface Guidelines. I having trouble explaining this as I write, but it's like there's one word, one concept that glues them all together (plus some third party apps with them) that would collect all these inconsistencies into a single category of use, behavior and appearance. Something beyond the "digital hub" container, something more flexible and inclusive.
It's like iTunes, iPhoto, iCal, the Panther Finder and maybe even Mail are all indexes. That is, they don't create content per se, they manage them. (Mail being sort ofin between: it both manages and creates content.) You could probably say the same for Safari, but probably not for iMovie or iDVD right now. If you had something like QT's favorites in a single app, you would be closer to a true "iMovie" in the same family as iTunes from that perspective. The index/management apps all could use a (primarily) single window UI that uses the metal appearance, uses the quit-on-window close behavior (preferably with a modified close widget sort of like the dot for modified files is a warning), they should all use the Dock Trash as their common receptacle, and all that.
It's funny, Apple's HI teams are working on actual projects rather than working in an ivory tower. It seems to have its benefits and faults. On the one hand, I think Apple has introduced some nice new ideas to some apps' user experiences. On the other, it's like no one is keeping everyone on the same page with regard to these ideas. It's like some teams find these things out when we do, but at least they see it in action, they don't just read about it in some white paper.
As for the Dock, the original topic at hand, well, I know since I started using Panther, as as I use Expose more and more, I've started leaving my Dock hidden most of the time since I don't minimize windows much any more, and I open most apps I need on startup and go through the much more convenient Finder for the others. I thought the app switching via the Dock was rather elegant if too subtle I suppose. Losing the Dock in the ned for what I consider a more direct way of working is rather nice. The Dock might have an identity crisis, but maybe it can gain a new identity. Maybe we'll see the return of a split Dock a la NeXT and OpenStep so you only use the half that's useful to you. Maybe we'll see the return of Docklets as the menubar gets more crowded for oft-used functions (though I took the volume and eject menulings off some time ago). Maybe the Dock can incorporate more clipboard-like and shelf-like functions for temporary storage and management (another management app?
As for the Dock, its central principle has always been "if you want it, click it." Dock menus follow cleanly from that - you still want something from whatever you're clicking on. Command-Tab interacts with applications in a different way that the Dock isn't as well suited to, and Apple's attempt to map it to the Dock were generally considered unsuccessful, so it's not too surprising that they came up with another, clearer behavior.
Luca Rescigno wrote:
Anyway, one really inconsistent thing about Macs is how they delete things. If you press the delete key in a word processor, the letter is deleted IMMEDIATELY but if you delete something in Finder, it goes to the trash and you have to delete it AGAIN by emptying the trash. Then you get into iPhoto and its own trash, and iTunes where it asks if you want to remove it from your library and move to the trash, etc. So inconsistent.
Deleting a word in a word processing program is far different-far less destructive-from deleting a file. You are correct, though, that it's difficult to manage things at the file level among the iApps because of their disparate interfaces. The big problem is there isn't a great way to differentiate between the removal of a symbolic link (pressing delete after selecting a song in an iTunes playlist) vs. the true deletion of a file (pressing delete after selecting a song from the iTunes library). The other poster made an incisive comment-Apple failed to take advantage of user-wide trash icon access. Consistent behavior would be to have all real files go over to the user trash, rather than a trash internal to each application. Alas, Jobs likes the concept of other applications being in charge of specific resources, and so that's how we get trash can inconsistencies. Either all the iApps that deal with real files should have their own trash can, or they should all rely on the user-wide trash (like iTunes does). It's really too bad that no one's paying attention to these UI inconsistencies, and I'm afraid things will only get worse.
Originally posted by Cake
In 10.2.6 it shows the app in the dock like this:
In 10.3 it pops up in the middle of the screen like the pic that Hobbes posted.
Here's a screen shot:
...
well, I'd put a screen shot here - except I don't know how to capture one at a small size nor how to insert it in an AI post.
Somebody please PM me to work out how to do this... Thanks.
btw - excellent reading in this thread!
If you still want to acess the menus in the Preferences dock icon WITHOUT a window in your face... simply try this trick.
Open System Preferences
Press CMD-H
...And you're done.
Have a nice day.
Originally posted by Spaztik
Press CMD-H
Are you proposing this as a be-all fix for every app that quits when you close the last window?
Originally posted by Eugene
Are you proposing this as a be-all fix for every app that quits when you close the last window?
Yeah, hiding works just dandy. Sheesh.
Originally posted by JLL
User has a browser with three tabs open. He presses Cmd-whatever to close one of the pages he's reading. He does the same to the next, but somehow Cmd-whatever wonøt close the last page since he needs to close the window using Cmd-W instead.
How about cmd-shift-W for tabs? That would be simply fabulous. Can you do this via the Keyboard shortcuts PreferencePane? (Sorry, I'm not at my comp)
Jimzip
Originally posted by Placebo
Yeah, hiding works just dandy. Sheesh.
Hiding is fine for short periods where you want to reduce clutter. Closing a window more closes emulates the behavior I want most of the time. And as for new windows popping up after you bring an app to the front, I'd also like the option for new windows not to pop up when I switch to them.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
a window can represent several files at once. Think of most applications in Windows like the Adobe suite of apps: they have one big "parent" window and a bunch of smaller windows trapped inside that are your actual documents. Also, tabbed UIs like in Safari are also a form of MDI.
Parent and child windows are unspeakably evil, and that's what most people mean by "MDI". Tabs can be useful, especially in apps like web browsers where you'll often be viewing lots of unrelated "documents" and usually don't need to see more than one at once.
Regarding Cmd-W, I know it's technically "inconsistent" to close the tab, but it's also closer to "do what I want". I want to close a single tab far more often than I want to close all of them, and Cmd-W is a natural way to do that since I think of tabs as just a convenient form of window management. And the "consistent" Cmd-W action can be very destructive, so I don't mind erring on the side of safety.
Originally posted by Eugene
...
Command-Q means Quit
Command-W means Close Window
Command-W should not mean Close Window AND Quit
Command-W should not mean Close Tab
No apps should quit when you close the last window. NONE. ZERO. ...
i always felt that's a big advantage over ms windows.
--> the macos app is still running although the last window is gonna closed. I fell better that way.
it has something to to with that particular "spatial feeling" regarding macos. even spatial becomes smaller these days;-)
best
Originally posted by 3.1416
Parent and child windows are unspeakably evil, and that's what most people mean by "MDI". Tabs can be useful, especially in apps like web browsers where you'll often be viewing lots of unrelated "documents" and usually don't need to see more than one at once.
Regarding Cmd-W, I know it's technically "inconsistent" to close the tab, but it's also closer to "do what I want". I want to close a single tab far more often than I want to close all of them, and Cmd-W is a natural way to do that since I think of tabs as just a convenient form of window management. And the "consistent" Cmd-W action can be very destructive, so I don't mind erring on the side of safety.
Right on, 3.1416. Non-destructive (and frequent!) behavior absolutely trump the ideal of letter-perfect consistency. Consistency is a important principle, but it can't get in the way of good UI -- different apps occasionally have to work differently, depending on how they operate.
Apple made the right choice with command-W closing a tab in Safari.
Originally posted by Hobbes
Apple made the right choice with command-W closing a tab in Safari.
No they didn't. You mean to tell me they 100+ key keyboards and we somehow need to share command-key combinations for such integral actions as closing windows and something else? Please...
Why not shift-command-w or shift-command-t or option-command-t.
I propose:
Shift-Command-T - Close this Tab
Option-Command-T - Close all other Tabs