System Preferences is one of the few applications that I consistently keep running even when its window is closed. It is MUCH handier that way. I can?t understand why anyone would want that particular application to quit when closed. Luckily, I can still use it the ?old? way until I find the time to buy and install Panther. I am sure that Panther is great for all sorts of other reasons, but this change is not one that I relish.
Incidentally, for future versions of OS X, the ideal would be if some form of centralized something ?Applications Preferences? menu allowed you to specify the behaviour of each application in this regard (and a few other regards as well ? such as its behaviour when you press the green button). This ideal would allow a single modified behaviour across all applications, as well as behaviours tailored to each application, if you would instead prefer to specify different behaviours depending on the application. All of this would be done through a panel in "System Preferences" itself, not in "Preferences" in each application.
Question: Is this something that OS X could do on its own ? or would it require complimentary modifications to applications for which this preference would be available? It would be nice if OS X could override the default behaviour in these regards without requiring application manufacturers to make modifications, but I don?t know enough about OS and application programming to know if this is possible.
Hey Eugene, you convinced me. When I first started reading this thread, I thought you were being a little hardline, but I see your logic now. Consistency has always been what made the Mac the Mac.
I did have one idea though that might solve the window closing issue. In apps like the System Prefences, instead of the typical round red close button, have more of a rounded, longer red rectangle that indicates that this action quits the app. Just a subtle difference but would allow for gui consistency. (it could even have rollover text that says quit)
I too was happy that it closed sys prefs, but then Eugene scolded me `, and told me about the contextual menu in the dock, and now I wish it didn't quit \
actually, that's what i agree with him the most. sometimes when i have a lot of tabs open, i will instinctively reach for the red "close" widget to close the active tab if my hands already on the mouse, and then... *poof* all tabs gone. dammit! it would be nice if apple could AT THE VERY LEAST include a warning dialog box (with a checkbox saying "do not show this warning again") saying "You are about to close a window with additional tabbed pages that have not been bookmarked. Are you sure you would like to close the window?" and then have an option saying "cancel," an option saying "close window and tabs," and an option to bookmark tabs to the menu for later reference (though that would be a really long button, but you understand what i mean).
that way, everyone's happy (and i don't lose unbookmarked tabs by accident anymore).
apple, i know you read these threads. use this feature, darn it!
I too often accidentally close all my tabs because I instinctively went to the window close button because that's always how I made stuff go away. And then as it fades away, I see my poor other tabs screaming out in agony as they too go the way of /dev/null
With tabs, perhaps the close window should close just the taba nd option+close will close the whole thing. Or a warning as rok suggested is also good.
When I first got X, I HATED that the system prefs didn't quit when I closed the window. I NEVER use the menu bar in system prefs. There is nothing there worth using, and that inlcudes Quit. I don't even access the system prefs the same way as any other application because it comes from the apple menu.
In the pre X days, things like this were not applications but behaved as control panels or desk accessories and didn't launch into their own programs. When you closed them, they went away. That's the way I still treat the sys prefs: as something that I open to change something and then close it with the close button.
Maybe it is inconsistent, but 3 years after my first installation of X and I'm still always having to lick back into the sys prefs just to quit it when I realize that it hasn't quit.
I'm with you Eugene. Just because Mac is trying to recruit windows users does not mean OS X should behave like windows users are used to!. The mac way is better for a reason. Sheesh. I know this has been said, but with the mac, everything needs to be UNIFORM. Cmd+W should not sometimes do this or sometimes do that. Ick! Those of you disagreeing are stupid and wrong !
The dock is where the apps reside that I run on an almost daily basis. The finder sidebar contains shortcuts to certain folders that I use somewhat frequently.
Basically the stuff I want to run is ALWAYS right in front of me. I only use the finder when I need to find something (pun intended ) That's why I reserve the sidebar for links to folders I want to get to quickly.
Besides, just because you may think that one obsoletes the other ignores that different people like to work differently. Using the dock for CMD-Tab was a lousy interface IMHO for the simple reason that your eye gets bounced around as the CMD-Tab skips icons in your dock that aren't active. The change to CMD-Tab is one good thing Apple has taken from Windows.
I too often accidentally close all my tabs because I instinctively went to the window close button because that's always how I made stuff go away. And then as it fades away, I see my poor other tabs screaming out in agony as they too go the way of /dev/null
Mozilla on my windows machine pops up dialog if I click the close window when there are multiple tabs open. I like this.
I would like a nice system-wide cmd-[closeTabKey] and cmd-w doing what they do seperately. That would be ideal. There just needs to be a better seperation between tabs you can close (safari) and ones you can't (sys prefs).
As far as having different keystrokes for safari tabs and safari windows, that makes no sense. To a me as a user, each tab is really a web page. If there are three tabs, there are three web pages. If there is just the one, then there is one web page. That last page needs to close in the same way as the other ones. Maybe if I press command-[closeTabKey] on the last page and am left with just the safari bar that would be OK, but closing the last page (tab) in a different way from every other one make no sense.
I'm with Eugene. it's Real annoying when you close Real or WiMP and the app quits, but then again why would you use these apps instead of MPlayer.
It would be nice to see the Dock let you close windows in any app with the contextual menu. Did the other hidden features like Pinning make it in to Panther, like Hide, which in Jag are only accessible through things like Transparent Dock? And Suck In? There are so many cool OS X features that have been hiding for so long, it's weird.
actually, that's what i agree with him the most. sometimes when i have a lot of tabs open, i will instinctively reach for the red "close" widget to close the active tab if my hands already on the mouse, and then... *poof* all tabs gone. dammit! it would be nice if apple could AT THE VERY LEAST include a warning dialog box (with a checkbox saying "do not show this warning again") saying "You are about to close a window with additional tabbed pages that have not been bookmarked. Are you sure you would like to close the window?" and then have an option saying "cancel," an option saying "close window and tabs," and an option to bookmark tabs to the menu for later reference (though that would be a really long button, but you understand what i mean).
that way, everyone's happy (and i don't lose unbookmarked tabs by accident anymore).
apple, i know you read these threads. use this feature, darn it!
It would be neat to have some global undo at the event processing level. Like journaling, the state of each program would be saved before *certain* events were processed. Then, the user could undo *lots* of actions (even just the last event would bring back your window of tabs). However, I wouldn't doubt that this would slow down systems and cost more than insignificant amounts of resources (like RAM). But it would be so cool.
Eugene, I wholeheartedly agree with you about your second point concerning tabs, but I'm a bit conflicted about the first. I tend to side with traditional Apple UI guidelines which state that a single window application should quit when the user closes that single window. Dock menus have nothing to do with the equation because they are simply another way to access commands; they aren't windows. However, you do have a valid point about the behavior being inconsistent, which I do agree with. The thing is, Apple has always had that UI policy, and to change it now may well be more inconsistent than it would be to leave it alone. One poster asked whether it would be possibly to set a preference for this on a global and application level. I don't know whether or not either is feasible, but this I do know. Allowing it on the application level would be a complete disaster. I could envision a global preference for it, though. You could either maintain default application behavior or force all applications to either stay open or quit upon the closure of the last window.
On your second point, you're most definitely right about command+w and tabs. If a browser window with tabs gets a command+w event, it should close the entire window, because anything else is inconsistent. Command+W should always be equivalent to clicking the close widget, and it most always has until now. Think of the UI nightmare we'd have if clicking the close widget only closed the current tab, and then realize that command+w should always be equivalent to clicking the red widget. I've gotten used to the non-standard behavior, but it was definitely something I protested against when I first experienced it.
Not too many were receptive to my cries. People reason that the user usually doesn't intend to destroy all of the open tabs, but I don't necessarily agree. Whatever the case maybe, there should be a separate keyboard command to close tabs. They aren't windows; they don't get spawned like windows (new tab is command+t, thankfully, not command+n), and they shouldn't be closed like windows. I could see a preference setting that would prompt the user after receiving a command to close a window with tabs: "Are you sure you want to close the window and all of its tabs? Close All, Close Current Tab, Cancel" But that would be an option not foisted upon those who wouldn't want it. The plain and simply fact is an established UI convention shouldn't be altered by any application without providing the user a way to restore the regular behavior. And that's why I reluctantly reject Eugene's arguments concerning single window applications while concurring with his tabs contention.
Actually, OS X cleaned up a lot of legacy Mac OS behavior, and I wouldn't mind if they finished the job. The inconsistent behavior of the window-closing widget is a problem. Way back in the day, single-window apps used to look different. Had Apple hewn to some standard, like "single window apps use brushed metal" then there'd be a visual cue - the "window" looks and acts like a single, physical object. Where we are now, there is no way to tell whether or not closing a window will quit the app, and there are so many reasons why that's stupid on OS X (what is the difference, really, between leaving an app open but windowless and quitting it, given OS X's virtual memory system and the Dock?).
I can only agree with the argument that command-W should close a window. That's the way it's always been. The Mac's interface is superior precisely because it is the most consistent one - it's intuitive because taking a particular action always has the same consequence. By the same token, it's unintuitive when the same action has different consequences.
But no, people just had to demand that Apple gum up the interface with MDI...
MDI = Multiple Document Interface, having a single application windows containing multiple document windows. Think MS Office for Windows and Photoshop for Windows.
It's a solution looking for a problem, and OLE (Object Linking and Embedding, the ability to embed an IRC client into Photoshop for example) is a solution to a problem caused by a solution looking for a problem. Welcome to Windows?.
Basically, MDI stands for Multiple Document Interface, where a window can represent several files at once. Think of most applications in Windows like the Adobe suite of apps: they have one big "parent" window and a bunch of smaller windows trapped inside that are your actual documents. Also, tabbed UIs like in Safari are also a form of MDI. MDI is where there isn't a vis-a-vis relationship between a window and a document. In Mac OS 9, the vast majority of apps maintain a relationship where window = file. That's not necessarily true any more.
Hm, time to revisit that "What do you want back from OS 9?" thread!
It makes sense. Who wants System Preferences to run in the background? iTunes runs with windows closed for a reason, and so does the Finder. But Preferences? It makes sense for the app to quit when the window closes, in my opinion.
One further comment: In my case, the reason that I prefer to Close rather than Quit System Preferences is not some philosophical stand about the way that Macs should work, but simply is based on the wait for launch. One way or the other I find myself in System Preferences quite often, but when I am in it, my verification or change of settings usually takes only a few seconds. Since I am only going to be in this application for a moment, waiting for launch seems especially annoying. I want System Preferences to be always instantly available, but at the same time I do not want to leave it up and have it cluttering my screen or have it minimized and cluttering up my Dock. Closed with a single click on the red button - but not Quit - is perfect for System Preferences.
One further theory: Could some of the disagreement on this issue (and overall, it is still a pretty small issue) be about processor speed? I have a measly, but well-loved iMac G3 500 which takes some time to launch applications. I test-drove an iMac G4 1GHz for a weekend not long ago and was amazed how much faster it was on launching. I suppose if you have a fast machine, you might not differentiate that much between Quit and Close.
MDI is short for Multiple Document Interface. I believe it's the interface Windows uses - where each document you have open is one specific instance of an application. If you have Notepad open, for example, and you select "open" from its menu bar (note that the menu bar is contained within the document/application window, not static along the top of the screen), the file it opens will take the place of the current one you have open. In order to have two documents open in Notepad simultaneously, you have to run Notepad twice - double click its icon again and open the second document. Other applications work differently too - some have a large "parent window" that all other windows must stay within, like mIRC. It actually prevents you from moving or resizing the smaller windows to be outside of the parent window. If you want your windows to be wherever you want, you have to make the parent window full screen. That's kind of like tabs but much, much worse because they actually trick you into thinking you have draggable, resizeable windows when you really don't.
Anyway, one really inconsistent thing about Macs is how they delete things. If you press the delete key in a word processor, the letter is deleted IMMEDIATELY but if you delete something in Finder, it goes to the trash and you have to delete it AGAIN by emptying the trash. Then you get into iPhoto and its own trash, and iTunes where it asks if you want to remove it from your library and move to the trash, etc. So inconsistent.
Oh, and the green "zoom box" as it was called in OS 9 is weird also. In most applications, it'll switch between my current window size/shape/position and the previous size/shape/position. But in Safari, it'll switch between two other sizes, never returning to my normal placement. As much as people dislike it when you say you have a browser window open full screen, I do it anyway and I don't know why it won't recognize it as one of the configurations I use. Oh, and when I open a new browser window it always is shifted a small amount to the right, so the right edge falls off the screen. Why is that? It's so dumb! An app should know not to open a window with the edge off the screen.
Comments
Incidentally, for future versions of OS X, the ideal would be if some form of centralized something ?Applications Preferences? menu allowed you to specify the behaviour of each application in this regard (and a few other regards as well ? such as its behaviour when you press the green button). This ideal would allow a single modified behaviour across all applications, as well as behaviours tailored to each application, if you would instead prefer to specify different behaviours depending on the application. All of this would be done through a panel in "System Preferences" itself, not in "Preferences" in each application.
Question: Is this something that OS X could do on its own ? or would it require complimentary modifications to applications for which this preference would be available? It would be nice if OS X could override the default behaviour in these regards without requiring application manufacturers to make modifications, but I don?t know enough about OS and application programming to know if this is possible.
I did have one idea though that might solve the window closing issue. In apps like the System Prefences, instead of the typical round red close button, have more of a rounded, longer red rectangle that indicates that this action quits the app. Just a subtle difference but would allow for gui consistency. (it could even have rollover text that says quit)
I disagree on the cmd-w tab thing though...
Originally posted by blue2kdave
I disagree on the cmd-w tab thing though...
actually, that's what i agree with him the most. sometimes when i have a lot of tabs open, i will instinctively reach for the red "close" widget to close the active tab if my hands already on the mouse, and then... *poof* all tabs gone. dammit! it would be nice if apple could AT THE VERY LEAST include a warning dialog box (with a checkbox saying "do not show this warning again") saying "You are about to close a window with additional tabbed pages that have not been bookmarked. Are you sure you would like to close the window?" and then have an option saying "cancel," an option saying "close window and tabs," and an option to bookmark tabs to the menu for later reference (though that would be a really long button, but you understand what i mean).
that way, everyone's happy (and i don't lose unbookmarked tabs by accident anymore).
apple, i know you read these threads. use this feature, darn it!
With tabs, perhaps the close window should close just the taba nd option+close will close the whole thing. Or a warning as rok suggested is also good.
When I first got X, I HATED that the system prefs didn't quit when I closed the window. I NEVER use the menu bar in system prefs. There is nothing there worth using, and that inlcudes Quit. I don't even access the system prefs the same way as any other application because it comes from the apple menu.
In the pre X days, things like this were not applications but behaved as control panels or desk accessories and didn't launch into their own programs. When you closed them, they went away. That's the way I still treat the sys prefs: as something that I open to change something and then close it with the close button.
Maybe it is inconsistent, but 3 years after my first installation of X and I'm still always having to lick back into the sys prefs just to quit it when I realize that it hasn't quit.
Originally posted by Code Master
With tabs, perhaps the close window should close just the taba nd option+close will close the whole thing. Or a warning as rok suggested is also good.
So now you propose changing the definition of Option-Command-W to mean something other than "Close All Windows?" Fantastic.
Basically the stuff I want to run is ALWAYS right in front of me. I only use the finder when I need to find something (pun intended
Besides, just because you may think that one obsoletes the other ignores that different people like to work differently. Using the dock for CMD-Tab was a lousy interface IMHO for the simple reason that your eye gets bounced around as the CMD-Tab skips icons in your dock that aren't active. The change to CMD-Tab is one good thing Apple has taken from Windows.
Originally posted by progmac
Ick! Those of you disagreeing are stupid and wrong !
When I take over the planet, they're going to wish they were never born!
Originally posted by Code Master
I too often accidentally close all my tabs because I instinctively went to the window close button because that's always how I made stuff go away. And then as it fades away, I see my poor other tabs screaming out in agony as they too go the way of /dev/null
Mozilla on my windows machine pops up dialog if I click the close window when there are multiple tabs open. I like this.
I would like a nice system-wide cmd-[closeTabKey] and cmd-w doing what they do seperately. That would be ideal. There just needs to be a better seperation between tabs you can close (safari) and ones you can't (sys prefs).
As far as having different keystrokes for safari tabs and safari windows, that makes no sense. To a me as a user, each tab is really a web page. If there are three tabs, there are three web pages. If there is just the one, then there is one web page. That last page needs to close in the same way as the other ones. Maybe if I press command-[closeTabKey] on the last page and am left with just the safari bar that would be OK, but closing the last page (tab) in a different way from every other one make no sense.
It would be nice to see the Dock let you close windows in any app with the contextual menu. Did the other hidden features like Pinning make it in to Panther, like Hide, which in Jag are only accessible through things like Transparent Dock? And Suck In? There are so many cool OS X features that have been hiding for so long, it's weird.
Originally posted by rok
actually, that's what i agree with him the most. sometimes when i have a lot of tabs open, i will instinctively reach for the red "close" widget to close the active tab if my hands already on the mouse, and then... *poof* all tabs gone. dammit! it would be nice if apple could AT THE VERY LEAST include a warning dialog box (with a checkbox saying "do not show this warning again") saying "You are about to close a window with additional tabbed pages that have not been bookmarked. Are you sure you would like to close the window?" and then have an option saying "cancel," an option saying "close window and tabs," and an option to bookmark tabs to the menu for later reference (though that would be a really long button, but you understand what i mean).
that way, everyone's happy (and i don't lose unbookmarked tabs by accident anymore).
apple, i know you read these threads. use this feature, darn it!
It would be neat to have some global undo at the event processing level. Like journaling, the state of each program would be saved before *certain* events were processed. Then, the user could undo *lots* of actions (even just the last event would bring back your window of tabs). However, I wouldn't doubt that this would slow down systems and cost more than insignificant amounts of resources (like RAM). But it would be so cool.
On your second point, you're most definitely right about command+w and tabs. If a browser window with tabs gets a command+w event, it should close the entire window, because anything else is inconsistent. Command+W should always be equivalent to clicking the close widget, and it most always has until now. Think of the UI nightmare we'd have if clicking the close widget only closed the current tab, and then realize that command+w should always be equivalent to clicking the red widget. I've gotten used to the non-standard behavior, but it was definitely something I protested against when I first experienced it.
Not too many were receptive to my cries. People reason that the user usually doesn't intend to destroy all of the open tabs, but I don't necessarily agree. Whatever the case maybe, there should be a separate keyboard command to close tabs. They aren't windows; they don't get spawned like windows (new tab is command+t, thankfully, not command+n), and they shouldn't be closed like windows. I could see a preference setting that would prompt the user after receiving a command to close a window with tabs: "Are you sure you want to close the window and all of its tabs? Close All, Close Current Tab, Cancel" But that would be an option not foisted upon those who wouldn't want it. The plain and simply fact is an established UI convention shouldn't be altered by any application without providing the user a way to restore the regular behavior. And that's why I reluctantly reject Eugene's arguments concerning single window applications while concurring with his tabs contention.
I can only agree with the argument that command-W should close a window. That's the way it's always been. The Mac's interface is superior precisely because it is the most consistent one - it's intuitive because taking a particular action always has the same consequence. By the same token, it's unintuitive when the same action has different consequences.
But no, people just had to demand that Apple gum up the interface with MDI...
Originally posted by Eugene
When I take over the planet, they're going to wish they were never born!
You tell 'em Eugene!
Originally posted by Amorph
But no, people just had to demand that Apple gum up the interface with MDI...
What is MDI?
Originally posted by KANE
What is MDI?
EVIL
...is what it is.
MDI = Multiple Document Interface, having a single application windows containing multiple document windows. Think MS Office for Windows and Photoshop for Windows.
It's a solution looking for a problem, and OLE (Object Linking and Embedding, the ability to embed an IRC client into Photoshop for example) is a solution to a problem caused by a solution looking for a problem. Welcome to Windows?.
Barto
Basically, MDI stands for Multiple Document Interface, where a window can represent several files at once. Think of most applications in Windows like the Adobe suite of apps: they have one big "parent" window and a bunch of smaller windows trapped inside that are your actual documents. Also, tabbed UIs like in Safari are also a form of MDI. MDI is where there isn't a vis-a-vis relationship between a window and a document. In Mac OS 9, the vast majority of apps maintain a relationship where window = file. That's not necessarily true any more.
Hm, time to revisit that "What do you want back from OS 9?" thread!
Originally posted by Placebo
It makes sense. Who wants System Preferences to run in the background? iTunes runs with windows closed for a reason, and so does the Finder. But Preferences? It makes sense for the app to quit when the window closes, in my opinion.
One further comment: In my case, the reason that I prefer to Close rather than Quit System Preferences is not some philosophical stand about the way that Macs should work, but simply is based on the wait for launch. One way or the other I find myself in System Preferences quite often, but when I am in it, my verification or change of settings usually takes only a few seconds. Since I am only going to be in this application for a moment, waiting for launch seems especially annoying. I want System Preferences to be always instantly available, but at the same time I do not want to leave it up and have it cluttering my screen or have it minimized and cluttering up my Dock. Closed with a single click on the red button - but not Quit - is perfect for System Preferences.
One further theory: Could some of the disagreement on this issue (and overall, it is still a pretty small issue) be about processor speed? I have a measly, but well-loved iMac G3 500 which takes some time to launch applications. I test-drove an iMac G4 1GHz for a weekend not long ago and was amazed how much faster it was on launching. I suppose if you have a fast machine, you might not differentiate that much between Quit and Close.
Anyway, one really inconsistent thing about Macs is how they delete things. If you press the delete key in a word processor, the letter is deleted IMMEDIATELY but if you delete something in Finder, it goes to the trash and you have to delete it AGAIN by emptying the trash. Then you get into iPhoto and its own trash, and iTunes where it asks if you want to remove it from your library and move to the trash, etc. So inconsistent.
Oh, and the green "zoom box" as it was called in OS 9 is weird also. In most applications, it'll switch between my current window size/shape/position and the previous size/shape/position. But in Safari, it'll switch between two other sizes, never returning to my normal placement. As much as people dislike it when you say you have a browser window open full screen, I do it anyway and I don't know why it won't recognize it as one of the configurations I use. Oh, and when I open a new browser window it always is shifted a small amount to the right, so the right edge falls off the screen. Why is that? It's so dumb! An app should know not to open a window with the edge off the screen.