Wow. Between Sanderson and Ruchinski, Burke may have actually made up for Bertuzzi's imminent departure in one day. He got a lot more points potential than I thought he would, and from two guys that have several good years left in the tank. Not to mention, they're cheaper put together than Bertuzzi alone.
Actually, I see this as his chance to show that the NHL is a real sport, not a WWF style Vegas-show. Nail Bertuzzi's hide to the wall as an example. Nail it good, hard, and solidly. Show some backbone, and show that this will *not* be tolerated as part of the sport.
Face to face fights are one thing. This was quite another.
Frankly, if Campbell backs down on this, combined with the looming strike next year, this could be the start of some dark years.
The cold, hard truth is, until fighting (ALL fighting) is banned from the game, stuff like this will always bubble to the surface at some point. I don't mind watching a good bout bewtween two heated rivals after a big hit or whatever, but you can't have fighting be "semi-legal" the way it is now and expect the nature of the sport to change.
5 for fighting is a joke. Fight in any other sport, including football, where there is lots of ugly contact, and you're done, and possibly suspended for a few games.
And as far as the self-policing theory that goes "eliminate the instigator and none of this bad stuff will happen", I call bullshit. Did last night's fighting stop anything? How many bouts were there, five? Fighting IS the bad stuff, generally speaking. All of these types of infractions should be an automatic match penalty, next game suspension and league review:
Punching another player in the neck or head
Charging / Leaving Your Skates
Boarding
High stick to the neck or head / Using your stick as a weapon
Elbow to the neck or head
The only way to make all players responsible for their actions, is to punish them when they do something that can seriously injure, and more than just 2-10 minutes. This game, next game and a review to determine if there was intent to injure. If it wasn't the player comes back, if it was, big suspension without pay... you won't need goons if players are frightened of Colin Campbell. Right now no one is afraid of him. And hammering Bert won't be enough to change that because it was such an extreme case.
He just has to show some balls and make this a reality even though it would be very unpopular at first. Hockey can still be a hard-hitting sport without the stuff noted above.
Take out the fighting and second game suspension and I agree with you. And add low hits in there. You're just as likely to end a career giving someone a Brian Marchment Special as you are slamming their noodle into the board.
Marchment is an abomination. They ought to make a special rule that goes something like this "If Brian Marchment dons a jersey and is seen on the ice, he will be suspended for the next 5 games."
Speak of the Devil. Marchment just got 5 and a game for hitting from behind.
This did get me thinking though. What if players that commit especially ugly infractions receive their match penalty/ensuing suspension and when they return are put on probation. If a repeat offender like Marchment slammed someone into the boards the way he did tonight but was on probation he would receive a lengthy suspension. Kinda like the drug programs most major sports have except for a different kind of moron.
bertuzzi banned? wtf is that crap? if he didnt fall on moore the worst that would have happened would be a concussion. rest of the season is what it should be. and this is coming from a guy who has him in his hockey pool.
ban fighting? only an american fan would say that. for some reason you guys just dont get it, its part of the sport and it always will be.
btw, stevens isnt dirty. he knows how to line up beautiful mid-ice clean hits. knocking of lindros' block was purley "keep ya head up".
get rid of the dirty hits, get rid of the clutch and grab open up the ice.
I understand perfectly well why fighting is a part of the game, but there is no logical reason to say it must always be so. Admit it: 80-90% of the fights started in today's NHL are grandstanding. A complete joke. Most are goon-on-goon, and almost all of them happen when a team gets so far behind that they know they won't catch up... so they "send a message". Yah right. If I'm the winning team, I think that message is "they can't win so they're sending their goon over to save face".
For every good old fashioned fight between two decent players (maybe sticking up for a teammate at a critical part of the game) there are 4 or 5 that serve absolutely no purpose that I can see.
Fighting for show is pointless and gives the sport its crappy image among those who don't truly understand it. While I don't want the NHL to become the NBA (i.e. I don't care if we're never the most popular), I DO want the NHL to become MORE popular than it currently is. And I know that it takes a couple years at least for the new fan to really catch on to the intricacies of the game and understand various player-to-player and team-to-team rivalries. That means that the NHL has to clean up their act at least a little bit to bring those valuable fans in and keep them watching.
If fans and the league continue taking the attitude that hockey should never evolve, the sport is going to die. This is not 1965. And sad to say but you *need* America to love this sport, because six teams does not a professional league make.
As for Bert, I'm not sure whose comments you were referring to but I certainly don't feel he should be banned. He should be booted for the rest of the year, including the playoffs IMO, or at the very least the first series the Canucks play. He has to pay for what he did, period.
Also, after having seen the footage from the front camera view, it is not as clear to me now that he didn't mean to pile-drive Moore's head into the ice. From the rear it looks like he just kind of fell over him, from the front it looked completely intentional because you can see him extend his arms as Moore nears the ice. It was just pathetic, that's all I can say...
...and Bert was one of my very favorite players in the league until this happened. Like Thornton with a bigger mean streak (but until now not really dirty, just tough as nails). At this point though he's earned any label people give him. He fvcked up bad... really bad.
Also, I want to say that Colorado's announcers are total homers and should not be paid attention to when deciding your thoughts on this incident. I have yet to see a single picture frame or video of Mark Crawford "smiling" as Moore lay motionless on the ice, yet the stupid announcers harped on it.
Anyone who knows Marc Crawford knows he always has that sort of "grimmace" on his face, practically all game long, every game. The only time he doesn't is when he's screaming at the ref or maybe talking to one of his players. To imply Crawford had anything to do with this is pretty pathetic.
Colorado's announcers are known among NHL fans as being among the worst in hockey. They constantly play up penalties called on the other team, bad mouth refs when they call penalties on the Avs (or "miss calls"), etc. Nashville's announcers are the only ones I can think of who are demonstrably worse than Colorado's (and I enjoy watching the Avs most nights).
bertuzzi banned? wtf is that crap? if he didnt fall on moore the worst that would have happened would be a concussion. rest of the season is what it should be. and this is coming from a guy who has him in his hockey pool.
ban fighting? only an american fan would say that. for some reason you guys just dont get it, its part of the sport and it always will be.
btw, stevens isnt dirty. he knows how to line up beautiful mid-ice clean hits. knocking of lindros' block was purley "keep ya head up".
get rid of the dirty hits, get rid of the clutch and grab open up the ice.
Perhaps you should watch the clip again. His neck gets broke when he collapses face first onto the ice after being knocked out cold by a chicken shit sucker punch. Bertuzzi falling on him doing nothing to injure him.
Fighting and Bertuzzi shouldn't be banned though. If fights get outlawed player frustrations will get bottled up and far worse stuff will happen. Just like with Bertuzzi. He ought to be sat for the rest of the season, playoffs included. But not banned from the NHL.
This doesn't warrant a lifetime ban. It does warrant a long suspension, such as the rest of the season, including playoffs, and I *really* like the probation idea as well. Oddly, my brother (17yrs playing, one national championship medal) recommended the same tonight when we were discussing this, that there should be a probationary period for Bertuzzi and others like him, wherein if they screw up *ONCE*, they have the hammer leveled at them. But let them redeem themselves after a suitable suspension. So, suspend for remainder of year, then probation for what, 1/2 season? full regular season? Make him play nice with the other boys for a while?
Anyone who knows Marc Crawford knows he always has that sort of "grimmace" on his face, practically all game long, every game. The only time he doesn't is when he's screaming at the ref or maybe talking to one of his players. To imply Crawford had anything to do with this is pretty pathetic.
That's not what you do as the leader of a team that is guilty of a planned, vicious display of thugdom.
You own-up to Granato, who is calling you over to say a few choice words, and you take it like a man. You take the heat. You don't stand there ignoring him all the while looking like a meathead.
To imply that he has nothing to do with it this is pretty pathetic. He's responsible for team conduct and for diffusing the situation afterward. He failed on both counts.
Are you suggesting that Granato and Crawford should've dropped the mitts? That's quite the statement coming from someone opposed to NHL thuggery.
Though that would totally trump the much vaunted goalie fight.
I'm starting to think Toddzilla's suspension may very well extend into next season.
No.
I'm saying he should have owned-up right there. He should have been effusing with apologies right there, in front of the thousands who had to watch the events unfold.
He could have at least shown some signs of life--putting his hand to his forehead or something. He didn't even look confused or concerned.
The 'best' goalie fight I've seen was the one a few years ago was the one where Cloutier started throwing haymakers at Salo and then challenged the entire bench afterward Russell Crowe/Maximus/Gladiator style.
I really think Crawford was just dumbfounded. This was the second huge incident involving a team of his and I know he was thinking "here we go again." As much as I detest him, there was nothing he could have done in that situation of any good, other than keeping his trap shut.
Bill Clement was saying that he believes the instigator rule is the root of the problem here. Had someone been able to start with Moore right away and gotten it out of their system, this might not have happened. But the instigator rule causes a delayed reaction, wait a couple games, then sucker punch or board the player. Players' feelings stew in the meantime. Perhaps the danger in waiting is far greater.
On another note, I wouldn't mind longer fightingp enalties or just a game misconduct for payers that fight. Fighting is inevitable in hockey when players' emotions boil over. That much has to be tolerated because there's no penalty that will fully prevent it anyway. But using fighting as a tactic should be put down for good.
Comments
Face to face fights are one thing. This was quite another.
Frankly, if Campbell backs down on this, combined with the looming strike next year, this could be the start of some dark years.
5 for fighting is a joke. Fight in any other sport, including football, where there is lots of ugly contact, and you're done, and possibly suspended for a few games.
And as far as the self-policing theory that goes "eliminate the instigator and none of this bad stuff will happen", I call bullshit. Did last night's fighting stop anything? How many bouts were there, five? Fighting IS the bad stuff, generally speaking. All of these types of infractions should be an automatic match penalty, next game suspension and league review:
Punching another player in the neck or head
Charging / Leaving Your Skates
Boarding
High stick to the neck or head / Using your stick as a weapon
Elbow to the neck or head
The only way to make all players responsible for their actions, is to punish them when they do something that can seriously injure, and more than just 2-10 minutes. This game, next game and a review to determine if there was intent to injure. If it wasn't the player comes back, if it was, big suspension without pay... you won't need goons if players are frightened of Colin Campbell. Right now no one is afraid of him. And hammering Bert won't be enough to change that because it was such an extreme case.
He just has to show some balls and make this a reality even though it would be very unpopular at first. Hockey can still be a hard-hitting sport without the stuff noted above.
This did get me thinking though. What if players that commit especially ugly infractions receive their match penalty/ensuing suspension and when they return are put on probation. If a repeat offender like Marchment slammed someone into the boards the way he did tonight but was on probation he would receive a lengthy suspension. Kinda like the drug programs most major sports have except for a different kind of moron.
ban fighting? only an american fan would say that. for some reason you guys just dont get it, its part of the sport and it always will be.
btw, stevens isnt dirty. he knows how to line up beautiful mid-ice clean hits. knocking of lindros' block was purley "keep ya head up".
get rid of the dirty hits, get rid of the clutch and grab open up the ice.
For every good old fashioned fight between two decent players (maybe sticking up for a teammate at a critical part of the game) there are 4 or 5 that serve absolutely no purpose that I can see.
Fighting for show is pointless and gives the sport its crappy image among those who don't truly understand it. While I don't want the NHL to become the NBA (i.e. I don't care if we're never the most popular), I DO want the NHL to become MORE popular than it currently is. And I know that it takes a couple years at least for the new fan to really catch on to the intricacies of the game and understand various player-to-player and team-to-team rivalries. That means that the NHL has to clean up their act at least a little bit to bring those valuable fans in and keep them watching.
If fans and the league continue taking the attitude that hockey should never evolve, the sport is going to die. This is not 1965. And sad to say but you *need* America to love this sport, because six teams does not a professional league make.
As for Bert, I'm not sure whose comments you were referring to but I certainly don't feel he should be banned. He should be booted for the rest of the year, including the playoffs IMO, or at the very least the first series the Canucks play. He has to pay for what he did, period.
Also, after having seen the footage from the front camera view, it is not as clear to me now that he didn't mean to pile-drive Moore's head into the ice. From the rear it looks like he just kind of fell over him, from the front it looked completely intentional because you can see him extend his arms as Moore nears the ice. It was just pathetic, that's all I can say...
...and Bert was one of my very favorite players in the league until this happened. Like Thornton with a bigger mean streak (but until now not really dirty, just tough as nails). At this point though he's earned any label people give him. He fvcked up bad... really bad.
Anyone who knows Marc Crawford knows he always has that sort of "grimmace" on his face, practically all game long, every game. The only time he doesn't is when he's screaming at the ref or maybe talking to one of his players. To imply Crawford had anything to do with this is pretty pathetic.
Colorado's announcers are known among NHL fans as being among the worst in hockey. They constantly play up penalties called on the other team, bad mouth refs when they call penalties on the Avs (or "miss calls"), etc. Nashville's announcers are the only ones I can think of who are demonstrably worse than Colorado's (and I enjoy watching the Avs most nights).
Watch the video muted.
Originally posted by Cam'ron
bertuzzi banned? wtf is that crap? if he didnt fall on moore the worst that would have happened would be a concussion. rest of the season is what it should be. and this is coming from a guy who has him in his hockey pool.
ban fighting? only an american fan would say that. for some reason you guys just dont get it, its part of the sport and it always will be.
btw, stevens isnt dirty. he knows how to line up beautiful mid-ice clean hits. knocking of lindros' block was purley "keep ya head up".
get rid of the dirty hits, get rid of the clutch and grab open up the ice.
Perhaps you should watch the clip again. His neck gets broke when he collapses face first onto the ice after being knocked out cold by a chicken shit sucker punch. Bertuzzi falling on him doing nothing to injure him.
Fighting and Bertuzzi shouldn't be banned though. If fights get outlawed player frustrations will get bottled up and far worse stuff will happen. Just like with Bertuzzi. He ought to be sat for the rest of the season, playoffs included. But not banned from the NHL.
This doesn't warrant a lifetime ban. It does warrant a long suspension, such as the rest of the season, including playoffs, and I *really* like the probation idea as well. Oddly, my brother (17yrs playing, one national championship medal) recommended the same tonight when we were discussing this, that there should be a probationary period for Bertuzzi and others like him, wherein if they screw up *ONCE*, they have the hammer leveled at them. But let them redeem themselves after a suitable suspension. So, suspend for remainder of year, then probation for what, 1/2 season? full regular season? Make him play nice with the other boys for a while?
Originally posted by Moogs
Anyone who knows Marc Crawford knows he always has that sort of "grimmace" on his face, practically all game long, every game. The only time he doesn't is when he's screaming at the ref or maybe talking to one of his players. To imply Crawford had anything to do with this is pretty pathetic.
That's not what you do as the leader of a team that is guilty of a planned, vicious display of thugdom.
You own-up to Granato, who is calling you over to say a few choice words, and you take it like a man. You take the heat. You don't stand there ignoring him all the while looking like a meathead.
To imply that he has nothing to do with it this is pretty pathetic. He's responsible for team conduct and for diffusing the situation afterward. He failed on both counts.
Though that would totally trump the much vaunted goalie fight.
I'm starting to think Toddzilla's suspension may very well extend into next season.
Originally posted by InactionMan
Are you suggesting that Granato and Crawford should've dropped the mitts? That's quite the statement coming from someone opposed to NHL thuggery.
Though that would totally trump the much vaunted goalie fight.
I'm starting to think Toddzilla's suspension may very well extend into next season.
No.
I'm saying he should have owned-up right there. He should have been effusing with apologies right there, in front of the thousands who had to watch the events unfold.
He could have at least shown some signs of life--putting his hand to his forehead or something. He didn't even look confused or concerned.
The 'best' goalie fight I've seen was the one a few years ago was the one where Cloutier started throwing haymakers at Salo and then challenged the entire bench afterward Russell Crowe/Maximus/Gladiator style.
Any kind of "discussion" would have lead to a fight. As if he's going to ****ing apologize to someone screaming his head off at him.
Things are so easy when you're sitting at a keyboard, aren't they.
On another note, I wouldn't mind longer fightingp enalties or just a game misconduct for payers that fight. Fighting is inevitable in hockey when players' emotions boil over. That much has to be tolerated because there's no penalty that will fully prevent it anyway. But using fighting as a tactic should be put down for good.
It's on MY list of rule changes for next season, anyway.
Originally posted by BuonRotto
Fighting is inevitable in hockey when players' emotions boil over.
Why isn't it inevitable in any other sport? It's a spectacle. In other sports, the rare fight isn't 'part of the game.'
Why aren't there any fights in olympic ice hockey?