Until very recently, I lived in Madrid for a few years. I sometimes travelled on the very same trains that were bombed this morning.
I remember driving to work one time, and when I got there someone said that a few minutes earlier there had been a bombing nearby. One poor guy never made it to work that day.
Or when ETA decided to murder someone by exploding a car bomb in a busy street as he drove past. Carnage.
Or when an alert security guard spotted a car parked partly obstructing a pedestrain crossing in central Madrid. The car was towed to an underground car-pound. A few hours later it exploded, destroying all the other cars nearby.
Or when ETA kidnapped a young man called Miguel Angel Blanco in July 97, and declared he would be murdered shortly. His young fiancee begged for his life on live TV. For days the ghastly agony continued. Then someone heard a shot nearby, and Miguel was found lying there, dying. We all joined in the huge, silent, peaceful demonstrations of literally hundreds of thousands of citizens.
I know you can't do it - and even if you could it wouldn't work.
That's what I meant by saying we need some NEW thought here - I don't know what and I'm not saying I do but I do know that Artman @_@'s suggestion above is the old way - it hasn't worked yet and it won't now.
Violence breeds violence and if we're going to use that as the solution then we have to just keep upping the ante and every time act more extreme than they do. Then they'll do the same.
There has to be a more effective way that WILL neutralise them. I just don't know what it is but I can certainly understand the urge to take retribution....
Complacency breed s violence.
Put this asshole...
or...
or this smirking ass leaving court...
...on world wide television...put a gun to their head...BAM...
So long as we, or our governments in our name, sanction the deaths of innocents in order to pursue the causes that we believe in, we are in a weak position to criticize others doing the same. The ends do not always justify the means for us or for them. We need to set an example and act from a position of moral strength. Win hearts & minds.
Its very sad for all those affected, victims, friends, families, Europeans...those responsible should be captured, tried and if convicted punished.
Those who support their aims should be shown the civilised way to respond to injustice.
Terrorism against a fascist governement like Franco, i can understand (but not approve), but terrorism in a democratic countrie, where peopel have the right to vote ?
For the record the leader of the Basque region (a sort of governor if you like) is belonging to the moderate Basque nationalist party. A party who is for the autonomy of the Basque countrie. This man, and his party, say that this ugly crime was comited by ETA, and ask Basque people to participate in a huge peacefull manifestation.
According to a specialist of terrorism i heard on radio, the new generation of ETA members is made of people coming from street-gang. We deal more with a criminal mafia, than a political movement. Even in the Basque countrie the support for ETA is extremely low, now he will be ridiculously low.
Without terrorist acts, the "war on terror" becomes redundant. It wouldnt surprise this political cynic if Spanish PM Asnar, (a major supporter of the US-UK international terrorist campaign against the Iraqi people last March, where we killed 10,000+ civilians there against international law) had pre- knowledge of the March 11 attacks, in the same way that members of the Bush administration (Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc) had pre-knowledge of the September 11 attacks.
Without 9-11, the Bush foreign policy ship would still be marooned in the doldrums...Without these horrific attacks in Spain, the unpopular Asnar regime, facing upcoming elections, and way behind in the polls, would have been looking at certain defeat. Now, the Spanish people, enraged by these acts, will fall behind Asnar, no questions asked, and Spanish democracy will probably start heading south, au Ashcroft modus operandum here.This looks like electioneering, Rove style, where collateral damage (200 dead. 1200 hurt) is a "small" price to pay when political careers are at stake. It worked here after 9-11, when nobody dared even question Bush policy out of fear of being labeled "anti-American", so why shouldn't the same dastardly methods work in Spain?
No, this isn't a conspiracy theory. It's the way the world works these days. People who get into positions of power do so, not through innate "humanitarian" characteristics, but more due to innate scumball characteristics. It usually takes scumball characteristics to rise to positions of leadership....nice guys dont cut it. Life is tough, you live it, and hope you dont get mown down in the process. Humanity hasnt changed really in the last few thousand years....we are suspectible to bad intention when a choice is to be made, and if you are in a position of power, you can make bad decisions with far less chance of being caught out and punished. We will never know who perpetrated 9-11, and probably never know who perpetrated these latest attacks.
One thing is for sure... anyone who lays any measure of blame on a party who isnt the "usual suspect" will be laughed out of court by the hordes who look to leaders and officialdom as being blameless by default.
Now, all I'm waiting for is for those "conspiracy theory" accusers' knees to start jerking in unison.....It always happens. Yawn.
Paradoxaly, as you mentionned, the terrorist helped someone they was supposed to hate. This is ****ing idiot.
For the conspiracy theory lovers, Asnar is going to leave politic in 3 days, and have announced this since months.
Link the two, and you will understand that like Hassan, i think that this kind of people are more interested by the taste of blood and fear, than a real political agenda.
Powerdoc - I don't agree with this outrage as I hope you know but one thing I would say about Spain is that it can lean a little to the undemocratic sometimes.
Not to justify this but Batasuna was recently banned as a political party (and mot because of ETA or terrorism) and their elected politicians thrown out of parliament.
This was when the upsurge in violence occurred (although it has a history). I don't think this action was democratic but nothing justifies these actions.
No democracy is perfect and i am not a specialist of spanish politic. Batasuna was banned for his double standart (you are either a political party, or a terrorist org), but there is several nationalist party in spain. And one of them is governing the spanish basque countrie.
I think that this is much better than Tchetchenia. Every democracy has some injustice in it, with a good towel you will finish to find one, but that's not an excuse for terrorism, because if it was the case, terrorism will always have an excuse.
If you want to check injustices, do it in the name of the citizens who suffer this injustice, but don't do it for preventing terrorism, it will lead you to disapointment.
I'm not interested in feeling better - I just want it to stop by the most effective means and your plan don't cut it. Sorry.
Their "effective" way of stating their idiotic (or in some cases justified...but that's another solution...I guess GWB & Dick have their agenda for that?...) demands. Is by blowing innocent people into chicken nuggets...do us all a favor...get balls and kill the leaders of your disgust or use political means to take them down instead. Don't be a ****ing loser/coward.
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
Their "effective" way of stating their idiotic (or in some cases justified...but that's another solution...I guess GWB & Dick have their agenda for that?...) demands. Is by blowing innocent people into chicken nuggets...do us all a favor...get balls and kill the leaders of your disgust or use political means to take them down instead. Don't be a ****ing loser/coward.
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
Immediate death for all those accused? Indiscriminate slaughter is not the cure for indiscriminate slaughter.
It doesn't have anything to do with having "balls" or being a "***ing loser/coward". It has to do with the best way to combat terrorism. Running around assassinating everybody you think might be a terrorist, or might be planning a terrorist act, or might be sympathetic to terrorist causes, is a great way to swell the ranks of suicide bombers, as well as a way to surrender any hint of moral authority.
Do you imagine that terrorists sport terrorist t-shirts and it is simply a lack of will that prevents us from picking them off? Terrorism is a scourge precisely because it not a country, peoples or army, but rather a diffuse strategy shared by certain members of a citizenry.
Calling this a war and making the whole planet a battlefield will distort and destroy any vestage of the values that we ostensibly hold, and which we ostensibly consider morally superior to that of the terrorist.
The rhetoric of war and kill or be killed means almost anything is justified, because almost anyone might be a terrorist almost anywhere.
Do you really want a world where entire apartment buildings are destroyed because someone had "intelligence" that terrorists might be harbored there? Because that is what you are actually talking about, as a matter of practice.
And at that point, what is the difference, really, between "us" and "them"?
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
I know you've probably been watching Rambo, but keep it real please.
There is no battlefield per se when it comes to terrorists. The "battlefield" is where you least expect it. Do some reading on why it's called -terrorism-. It's not that simple.
I just spoke to a friend two days ago about his trip to Basque country last week! Yikes... Anyway, he's mexi/American and looks-wise, could fit in with lots of different people. Many folks approached him and would start to speak in Basque before he could tell them in spanish where he was from (Houston, TX).
His impressions were that the overwelming majority of folks there wish the ETA would go the f#*k away... As frustrated as they are with Madrid's rule, they are more and more turning their backs on ETA's way of doing things. So now ETA is going to start to collaborate with Al Queda.
Breaking news: London newspaper says it received e-mail from al Qaeda-affiliated group claiming responsibility for Madrid bombings. Details soon.
And
Quote:
But Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes said authorities are investigating a van found in the town of Alcala de Henares, outside Madrid, with at least seven detonators and an Arabic tape with Koranic teachings.
The tape contained no threats and is a type available commercially. The van was stolen last month.
So now ETA is going to start to collaborate with Al Queda.
This is just unfounded speculation and quite honestly I don't believe it one bit. ETA would >not< want to be associated with the most hated terror organization in the world. Not to mention the fact that they would wound up much higher on the list of prioritized enemies in the eyes of the American government. And exactly why would al Qaeda want to cooperate with ETA?
Terrorism against a fascist governement like Franco, i can understand (but not approve), but terrorism in a democratic countrie, where peopel have the right to vote ?
Doc, I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree?
We need to understand the causes without condoning the actions- but we need to recognise the implications of our own actions.
Its a little strange that when we kill (via direct military action, covert interventions, support for repressive regimes, unfair 'free' trade leading to poverty & starvation or witholding medicines) large numbers of civilians in pursuit of our objectives they become unavoidable, necessary collateral damage, yet when others, who may be equally convinced that we are wrong and they are right, attack our citizens it is a very different matter.
(While we're (nearly) on the subject... can someone explain what is so heroic about spending biilions of dollars on arms so that our servicemen can kill civilians (by accident - many times over) from high altitude or beyond viible range and at almost no risk to themselves?
I don't agree with 'suicide' bombers... but I don't see that their acts of killing are any more abhorant where innocents are killed by both parties. If everyone that intended to kill, knew that they would have to die to do so, there might be less deaths all round...)
BTW... if this attitude prevails -
Quote:
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
we will certainly lose. If we wish to live the (largely) free lifestyles that we have we are gonna have to do better than that. Aircraft carriers and satellites can not protect you from your angry next door neighbour.
So long as we, or our governments in our name, sanction the deaths of innocents in order to pursue the causes that we believe in, we are in a weak position to criticize others doing the same. The ends do not always justify the means for us or for them. We need to set an example and act from a position of moral strength. Win hearts & minds.
Its very sad for all those affected, victims, friends, families, Europeans...those responsible should be captured, tried and if convicted punished.
Those who support their aims should be shown the civilised way to respond to injustice.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The ONLY thing terrorists respect is violence. Of course we have to do more, partiularly with regard to improving our own security. You might disagree, but I'd argue that by bringing Democracy to the Middle East, we WILL be going after root causes. The implication I hear on this board is that the US is someow responsible for terror because of poor conditions in many countries. I think that's very misguided. We didn't and don't cause the abhorent conditions, those countries' corrupt and oppressive terror sponsoring governments do.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The ONLY thing terrorists respect is violence. Of course we have to do more, partiularly with regard to improving our own security. You might disagree, but I'd argue that by bringing Democracy to the Middle East, we WILL be going after root causes. The implication I hear on this board is that the US is someow responsible for terror because of poor conditions in many countries. I think that's very misguided. We didn't and don't cause the abhorent conditions, those countries' corrupt and oppressive terror sponsoring governments do.
Seems to me that it is you who are trying to make this an Us (patriot-American) vs them (liberal-America-haters) vs them (terrorist-fascist-idiots) issue, then you are wrong.
Zarathustra mentioned cases where we also have killed and many means through which governments, including ours, have done so. . . . then, you generalized that "the implications that I hear on these boards" is some unnanimous opinion about the evilness of America.
Leave it will you . . . give it a rest!
These terrorists have simply reinforced the fact that they have no respect for human life when the people involved do not ascribe to their miserable world view . . . and also, they show that they have no respect for living in this world even if they do believe their idiot ideas, after all they love suicide deaths and imagine them sme kind of 'Beautiful death'. -typical fascist idea . . . and Islamism of this sort is definitely a form of fascism.
I agree with you SDW, that there really is a qualitative difference with this kind of activity . . . warfare is abhorent, in all cases. And Americans do kill civilians often and it is wrong and horrible . . . it uually is a mistake, however, and that distinguishes America profoundly from over 90% of warfare in the history of the world . .. and even a high percentage of contemporary warfare.
We need to understand the causes without condoning the actions- but we need to recognise the implications of our own actions.
Its a little strange that when we kill (via direct military action, covert interventions, support for repressive regimes, unfair 'free' trade leading to poverty & starvation or witholding medicines) large numbers of civilians in pursuit of our objectives they become unavoidable, necessary collateral damage, yet when others, who may be equally convinced that we are wrong and they are right, attack our citizens it is a very different matter.
(While we're (nearly) on the subject... can someone explain what is so heroic about spending biilions of dollars on arms so that our servicemen can kill civilians (by accident - many times over) from high altitude or beyond viible range and at almost no risk to themselves?
I don't agree with 'suicide' bombers... but I don't see that their acts of killing are any more abhorant where innocents are killed by both parties. If everyone that intended to kill, knew that they would have to die to do so, there might be less deaths all round...)
BTW... if this attitude prevails -
we will certainly lose. If we wish to live the (largely) free lifestyles that we have we are gonna have to do better than that. Aircraft carriers and satellites can not protect you from your angry next door neighbour.
When we kill ? show me the connection with spain. Spain did not bomb anybody, nor committed collateral damage in the last years. ETA has no support even in the Basque countrie.
In Bilbao, San sebastian people have stayed 15 minutes without speaking in public places. Basque are revolted.
Many people here doubt that ETA is at the origin of this crime, but i heard on the radio, that all experts about terrorism are sure that it's ETA (type of explosive, detonator ...)
When we kill ? show me the connection with spain. Spain did not bomb anybody, nor committed collateral damage in the last years.
Doc, I think we're at cross purposes. I am not saying that there is a simplistic cause and effect relationship between this latest outrage and a particular act by Spain. But, our (Western Developed nations) attitudes towards others does help to create the conditions where maniacs can delude themselves and others that they have a 'cause'.
Spain was a supporter of the coalition 'at War' in Iraq wasn't it?
Together we believed in a cause, (generalising wildly for a moment..) that of getting rid of Sadaam Hussain.
We also believed that if that meant that thousands of innocent civilians had to die that was a price worth paying (for our convictions) - eventually they and their families would be grateful.
Our European C.A.P. routinely destroys agricultural economies across the world turning food exporters into countries unable to feed their own populations.
We encourage people to grow cash crops. Once they become dependent upon them we drop the prices we are willing to pay. People suffer and people die because of us and our insistence upon maintaining our high standards of whatever the human costs.
Whilst we demonstrate that we do not respect life how can we expect others to do so?
I am not claiming a moral equivilence.... but we have the luxury with our resources of pursuing our objectives via 'Wars' and open military aggression. If we were the ones with no such means would we givew up our aims or find other methods?
What happened in Spain was wrong. Very, very wrong. Let's search for, convict and punish those responsible yes. lets not become that which we despise. People on here seem actually to support the idea that we should kill anyone 'accused' of involvement. I'm afraid don't share their degree of faith in the accusers and do not want to live in such a place.
As for:
Quote:
but I'd argue that by bringing Democracy to the Middle East, we WILL be going after root causes
that's a nice idea. we should try it sometime. Perhaps by actually letting the Iraqis elect whatever style of government THEY want. Rather than yet again imposing our ideas upon them and hoping the cracks dont show. How would we react if they decided to split into seperate states, wanted a strict Muslim state, or even worse perhaps become socialists? How about we stop supporting the non-democratic countries in the Middle east. The House of Saud seems a good place to start.
We need to learn that imposing our models on others at the point of a gun is not 'bringing democracy'.
Is it just me or does the spanish government use this a bit to much in their own interest?
With elections just around the corner the bombings could influence quite a lot. If it was an ETA attack it would probably boost the government, while an al-quaida attack would boost the opposition. In my opinion.
And they called it immediately. Even pressuring the UN security council to blame ETA without much hard evidence.
Seems a bit too opportunistic to me. For a tragedy of this magnitude.
Now it might be the ETA. But we really don't know that yet, do we?
(btw, A friend just told me that yesterday the 11th of march (or 3/11), was exactly two and a half years after 9/11, and thats exactly 911 days. )
Comments
Until very recently, I lived in Madrid for a few years. I sometimes travelled on the very same trains that were bombed this morning.
I remember driving to work one time, and when I got there someone said that a few minutes earlier there had been a bombing nearby. One poor guy never made it to work that day.
Or when ETA decided to murder someone by exploding a car bomb in a busy street as he drove past. Carnage.
Or when an alert security guard spotted a car parked partly obstructing a pedestrain crossing in central Madrid. The car was towed to an underground car-pound. A few hours later it exploded, destroying all the other cars nearby.
Or when ETA kidnapped a young man called Miguel Angel Blanco in July 97, and declared he would be murdered shortly. His young fiancee begged for his life on live TV. For days the ghastly agony continued. Then someone heard a shot nearby, and Miguel was found lying there, dying. We all joined in the huge, silent, peaceful demonstrations of literally hundreds of thousands of citizens.
Turn on your TV at 7pm Spanish time on Friday.
There will be another demonstration.
Originally posted by segovius
I know you can't do it - and even if you could it wouldn't work.
That's what I meant by saying we need some NEW thought here - I don't know what and I'm not saying I do but I do know that Artman @_@'s suggestion above is the old way - it hasn't worked yet and it won't now.
Violence breeds violence and if we're going to use that as the solution then we have to just keep upping the ante and every time act more extreme than they do. Then they'll do the same.
There has to be a more effective way that WILL neutralise them. I just don't know what it is but I can certainly understand the urge to take retribution....
Complacency breed s violence.
Put this asshole...
or...
or this smirking ass leaving court...
...on world wide television...put a gun to their head...BAM...
...next? No. you will be next...
Why do they do that? Just because they are fvckheads? I don't think so.
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Well said.
So long as we, or our governments in our name, sanction the deaths of innocents in order to pursue the causes that we believe in, we are in a weak position to criticize others doing the same. The ends do not always justify the means for us or for them. We need to set an example and act from a position of moral strength. Win hearts & minds.
Its very sad for all those affected, victims, friends, families, Europeans...those responsible should be captured, tried and if convicted punished.
Those who support their aims should be shown the civilised way to respond to injustice.
Terrorism against a fascist governement like Franco, i can understand (but not approve), but terrorism in a democratic countrie, where peopel have the right to vote ?
For the record the leader of the Basque region (a sort of governor if you like) is belonging to the moderate Basque nationalist party. A party who is for the autonomy of the Basque countrie. This man, and his party, say that this ugly crime was comited by ETA, and ask Basque people to participate in a huge peacefull manifestation.
According to a specialist of terrorism i heard on radio, the new generation of ETA members is made of people coming from street-gang. We deal more with a criminal mafia, than a political movement. Even in the Basque countrie the support for ETA is extremely low, now he will be ridiculously low.
Without 9-11, the Bush foreign policy ship would still be marooned in the doldrums...Without these horrific attacks in Spain, the unpopular Asnar regime, facing upcoming elections, and way behind in the polls, would have been looking at certain defeat. Now, the Spanish people, enraged by these acts, will fall behind Asnar, no questions asked, and Spanish democracy will probably start heading south, au Ashcroft modus operandum here.This looks like electioneering, Rove style, where collateral damage (200 dead. 1200 hurt) is a "small" price to pay when political careers are at stake. It worked here after 9-11, when nobody dared even question Bush policy out of fear of being labeled "anti-American", so why shouldn't the same dastardly methods work in Spain?
No, this isn't a conspiracy theory. It's the way the world works these days. People who get into positions of power do so, not through innate "humanitarian" characteristics, but more due to innate scumball characteristics. It usually takes scumball characteristics to rise to positions of leadership....nice guys dont cut it. Life is tough, you live it, and hope you dont get mown down in the process. Humanity hasnt changed really in the last few thousand years....we are suspectible to bad intention when a choice is to be made, and if you are in a position of power, you can make bad decisions with far less chance of being caught out and punished. We will never know who perpetrated 9-11, and probably never know who perpetrated these latest attacks.
One thing is for sure... anyone who lays any measure of blame on a party who isnt the "usual suspect" will be laughed out of court by the hordes who look to leaders and officialdom as being blameless by default.
Now, all I'm waiting for is for those "conspiracy theory" accusers' knees to start jerking in unison.....It always happens. Yawn.
For the conspiracy theory lovers, Asnar is going to leave politic in 3 days, and have announced this since months.
Link the two, and you will understand that like Hassan, i think that this kind of people are more interested by the taste of blood and fear, than a real political agenda.
Originally posted by segovius
Powerdoc - I don't agree with this outrage as I hope you know but one thing I would say about Spain is that it can lean a little to the undemocratic sometimes.
Not to justify this but Batasuna was recently banned as a political party (and mot because of ETA or terrorism) and their elected politicians thrown out of parliament.
This was when the upsurge in violence occurred (although it has a history). I don't think this action was democratic but nothing justifies these actions.
No democracy is perfect and i am not a specialist of spanish politic. Batasuna was banned for his double standart (you are either a political party, or a terrorist org), but there is several nationalist party in spain. And one of them is governing the spanish basque countrie.
I think that this is much better than Tchetchenia. Every democracy has some injustice in it, with a good towel you will finish to find one, but that's not an excuse for terrorism, because if it was the case, terrorism will always have an excuse.
If you want to check injustices, do it in the name of the citizens who suffer this injustice, but don't do it for preventing terrorism, it will lead you to disapointment.
Originally posted by segovius
I'm not interested in feeling better - I just want it to stop by the most effective means and your plan don't cut it. Sorry.
Their "effective" way of stating their idiotic (or in some cases justified...but that's another solution...I guess GWB & Dick have their agenda for that?...) demands. Is by blowing innocent people into chicken nuggets...do us all a favor...get balls and kill the leaders of your disgust or use political means to take them down instead. Don't be a ****ing loser/coward.
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
Originally posted by Artman @_@
Their "effective" way of stating their idiotic (or in some cases justified...but that's another solution...I guess GWB & Dick have their agenda for that?...) demands. Is by blowing innocent people into chicken nuggets...do us all a favor...get balls and kill the leaders of your disgust or use political means to take them down instead. Don't be a ****ing loser/coward.
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
Immediate death for all those accused? Indiscriminate slaughter is not the cure for indiscriminate slaughter.
It doesn't have anything to do with having "balls" or being a "***ing loser/coward". It has to do with the best way to combat terrorism. Running around assassinating everybody you think might be a terrorist, or might be planning a terrorist act, or might be sympathetic to terrorist causes, is a great way to swell the ranks of suicide bombers, as well as a way to surrender any hint of moral authority.
Do you imagine that terrorists sport terrorist t-shirts and it is simply a lack of will that prevents us from picking them off? Terrorism is a scourge precisely because it not a country, peoples or army, but rather a diffuse strategy shared by certain members of a citizenry.
Calling this a war and making the whole planet a battlefield will distort and destroy any vestage of the values that we ostensibly hold, and which we ostensibly consider morally superior to that of the terrorist.
The rhetoric of war and kill or be killed means almost anything is justified, because almost anyone might be a terrorist almost anywhere.
Do you really want a world where entire apartment buildings are destroyed because someone had "intelligence" that terrorists might be harbored there? Because that is what you are actually talking about, as a matter of practice.
And at that point, what is the difference, really, between "us" and "them"?
Originally posted by Artman @_@
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
I know you've probably been watching Rambo, but keep it real please.
There is no battlefield per se when it comes to terrorists. The "battlefield" is where you least expect it. Do some reading on why it's called -terrorism-. It's not that simple.
His impressions were that the overwelming majority of folks there wish the ETA would go the f#*k away... As frustrated as they are with Madrid's rule, they are more and more turning their backs on ETA's way of doing things. So now ETA is going to start to collaborate with Al Queda.
This is a truly horrendous crime.
Breaking news: London newspaper says it received e-mail from al Qaeda-affiliated group claiming responsibility for Madrid bombings. Details soon.
And
But Spanish Interior Minister Angel Acebes said authorities are investigating a van found in the town of Alcala de Henares, outside Madrid, with at least seven detonators and an Arabic tape with Koranic teachings.
The tape contained no threats and is a type available commercially. The van was stolen last month.
Originally posted by hardhead
So now ETA is going to start to collaborate with Al Queda.
This is just unfounded speculation and quite honestly I don't believe it one bit. ETA would >not< want to be associated with the most hated terror organization in the world. Not to mention the fact that they would wound up much higher on the list of prioritized enemies in the eyes of the American government. And exactly why would al Qaeda want to cooperate with ETA?
Terrorism against a fascist governement like Franco, i can understand (but not approve), but terrorism in a democratic countrie, where peopel have the right to vote ?
Doc, I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree?
We need to understand the causes without condoning the actions- but we need to recognise the implications of our own actions.
Its a little strange that when we kill (via direct military action, covert interventions, support for repressive regimes, unfair 'free' trade leading to poverty & starvation or witholding medicines) large numbers of civilians in pursuit of our objectives they become unavoidable, necessary collateral damage, yet when others, who may be equally convinced that we are wrong and they are right, attack our citizens it is a very different matter.
(While we're (nearly) on the subject... can someone explain what is so heroic about spending biilions of dollars on arms so that our servicemen can kill civilians (by accident - many times over) from high altitude or beyond viible range and at almost no risk to themselves?
I don't agree with 'suicide' bombers... but I don't see that their acts of killing are any more abhorant where innocents are killed by both parties. If everyone that intended to kill, knew that they would have to die to do so, there might be less deaths all round...)
BTW... if this attitude prevails -
This is a war. On a battlefield there is no judge or jury. Kill or be killed. Death. Immediate death for all accused of these atrocities. Bring a couple of semi-trucks and flatbeds...you know we'll need it...
we will certainly lose. If we wish to live the (largely) free lifestyles that we have we are gonna have to do better than that. Aircraft carriers and satellites can not protect you from your angry next door neighbour.
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Well said.
So long as we, or our governments in our name, sanction the deaths of innocents in order to pursue the causes that we believe in, we are in a weak position to criticize others doing the same. The ends do not always justify the means for us or for them. We need to set an example and act from a position of moral strength. Win hearts & minds.
Its very sad for all those affected, victims, friends, families, Europeans...those responsible should be captured, tried and if convicted punished.
Those who support their aims should be shown the civilised way to respond to injustice.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The ONLY thing terrorists respect is violence. Of course we have to do more, partiularly with regard to improving our own security. You might disagree, but I'd argue that by bringing Democracy to the Middle East, we WILL be going after root causes. The implication I hear on this board is that the US is someow responsible for terror because of poor conditions in many countries. I think that's very misguided. We didn't and don't cause the abhorent conditions, those countries' corrupt and oppressive terror sponsoring governments do.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Wrong, wrong, wrong. The ONLY thing terrorists respect is violence. Of course we have to do more, partiularly with regard to improving our own security. You might disagree, but I'd argue that by bringing Democracy to the Middle East, we WILL be going after root causes. The implication I hear on this board is that the US is someow responsible for terror because of poor conditions in many countries. I think that's very misguided. We didn't and don't cause the abhorent conditions, those countries' corrupt and oppressive terror sponsoring governments do.
Seems to me that it is you who are trying to make this an Us (patriot-American) vs them (liberal-America-haters) vs them (terrorist-fascist-idiots) issue, then you are wrong.
Zarathustra mentioned cases where we also have killed and many means through which governments, including ours, have done so. . . . then, you generalized that "the implications that I hear on these boards" is some unnanimous opinion about the evilness of America.
Leave it will you . . . give it a rest!
These terrorists have simply reinforced the fact that they have no respect for human life when the people involved do not ascribe to their miserable world view . . . and also, they show that they have no respect for living in this world even if they do believe their idiot ideas, after all they love suicide deaths and imagine them sme kind of 'Beautiful death'. -typical fascist idea . . . and Islamism of this sort is definitely a form of fascism.
I agree with you SDW, that there really is a qualitative difference with this kind of activity . . . warfare is abhorent, in all cases. And Americans do kill civilians often and it is wrong and horrible . . . it uually is a mistake, however, and that distinguishes America profoundly from over 90% of warfare in the history of the world . .. and even a high percentage of contemporary warfare.
Aries 1B
Originally posted by Zarathustra
Doc, I'm not sure whether we agree or disagree?
We need to understand the causes without condoning the actions- but we need to recognise the implications of our own actions.
Its a little strange that when we kill (via direct military action, covert interventions, support for repressive regimes, unfair 'free' trade leading to poverty & starvation or witholding medicines) large numbers of civilians in pursuit of our objectives they become unavoidable, necessary collateral damage, yet when others, who may be equally convinced that we are wrong and they are right, attack our citizens it is a very different matter.
(While we're (nearly) on the subject... can someone explain what is so heroic about spending biilions of dollars on arms so that our servicemen can kill civilians (by accident - many times over) from high altitude or beyond viible range and at almost no risk to themselves?
I don't agree with 'suicide' bombers... but I don't see that their acts of killing are any more abhorant where innocents are killed by both parties. If everyone that intended to kill, knew that they would have to die to do so, there might be less deaths all round...)
BTW... if this attitude prevails -
we will certainly lose. If we wish to live the (largely) free lifestyles that we have we are gonna have to do better than that. Aircraft carriers and satellites can not protect you from your angry next door neighbour.
When we kill ? show me the connection with spain. Spain did not bomb anybody, nor committed collateral damage in the last years. ETA has no support even in the Basque countrie.
In Bilbao, San sebastian people have stayed 15 minutes without speaking in public places. Basque are revolted.
Many people here doubt that ETA is at the origin of this crime, but i heard on the radio, that all experts about terrorism are sure that it's ETA (type of explosive, detonator ...)
When we kill ? show me the connection with spain. Spain did not bomb anybody, nor committed collateral damage in the last years.
Doc, I think we're at cross purposes. I am not saying that there is a simplistic cause and effect relationship between this latest outrage and a particular act by Spain. But, our (Western Developed nations) attitudes towards others does help to create the conditions where maniacs can delude themselves and others that they have a 'cause'.
Spain was a supporter of the coalition 'at War' in Iraq wasn't it?
Together we believed in a cause, (generalising wildly for a moment..) that of getting rid of Sadaam Hussain.
We also believed that if that meant that thousands of innocent civilians had to die that was a price worth paying (for our convictions) - eventually they and their families would be grateful.
Our European C.A.P. routinely destroys agricultural economies across the world turning food exporters into countries unable to feed their own populations.
We encourage people to grow cash crops. Once they become dependent upon them we drop the prices we are willing to pay. People suffer and people die because of us and our insistence upon maintaining our high standards of whatever the human costs.
Whilst we demonstrate that we do not respect life how can we expect others to do so?
I am not claiming a moral equivilence.... but we have the luxury with our resources of pursuing our objectives via 'Wars' and open military aggression. If we were the ones with no such means would we givew up our aims or find other methods?
What happened in Spain was wrong. Very, very wrong. Let's search for, convict and punish those responsible yes. lets not become that which we despise. People on here seem actually to support the idea that we should kill anyone 'accused' of involvement. I'm afraid don't share their degree of faith in the accusers and do not want to live in such a place.
As for:
but I'd argue that by bringing Democracy to the Middle East, we WILL be going after root causes
that's a nice idea. we should try it sometime. Perhaps by actually letting the Iraqis elect whatever style of government THEY want. Rather than yet again imposing our ideas upon them and hoping the cracks dont show. How would we react if they decided to split into seperate states, wanted a strict Muslim state, or even worse perhaps become socialists? How about we stop supporting the non-democratic countries in the Middle east. The House of Saud seems a good place to start.
We need to learn that imposing our models on others at the point of a gun is not 'bringing democracy'.
With elections just around the corner the bombings could influence quite a lot. If it was an ETA attack it would probably boost the government, while an al-quaida attack would boost the opposition. In my opinion.
And they called it immediately. Even pressuring the UN security council to blame ETA without much hard evidence.
Seems a bit too opportunistic to me. For a tragedy of this magnitude.
Now it might be the ETA. But we really don't know that yet, do we?
(btw, A friend just told me that yesterday the 11th of march (or 3/11), was exactly two and a half years after 9/11, and thats exactly 911 days.