Well, let's just go ahead and let Al Qaeda have the world. Judging by the world's lack of interest in standing against terrorism, it is the logical next step... I dunno, maybe just on this board. In effect, terrorists that number no more than a few thousand are effectively slapping the entire Western Civilization into submission.
This is a war for our way and quality of life. Pathetic how many across the world will not stand up to people that want to end their lives as they know them.
If anyone thinks that by backing out troops or support that terrorism is going to end, they are an idiot. These people do not care- they want you and all that you believe in DEAD. Capitalism, representative democracy, the separation of religion and gov't is all out the window. How quickly we forget Iran in the 1970s and 80s.
Have any doubts? Go live a few months in Jerusalem.
Greeting from the USA. Thank you very much for promising to pull your troops out. You have shown the world that goals can be achieved by people with bombs... on trains in this case. You have illustrated your lack of resolve for fighting terrorism. Bombs go off, Spain retreats. One in the win column for Al Qaeda.
Thanks for nothing, you spineless fools.
And again. Well said. Spain just surrendered. In case anyone was wondering, this is exactly the response Al-Queda wanted from 9-11. It now knows it can influence elections by bombing commuter trains.
Tell the Kurds and Iranians that Saddam did not have WMDs.
By terrorists, no? Now what stake would terrorists have in Iraq's regime? I think sensible people can see where I am going here...
There would never have been a war if Saddam had just shown the UN that he destroyed them- but he didn't. Adios, compadre.
I love all these people who are right on board with "human rights" re: gay marriage, but cannot see the human rights victory we had in Iraq. Simply stunning.
Wow. Three reasonable posts in one thread. Add to this the complete MYTH that Saddam had no international terror ties. Palestinian homicide bombers, anyone?
And Harald, why is having Al-Queda attracted to Iraq a bad thing? Let them fight the US Military. I'm sorry when we lose brave men and women over there, but they are there to keep the war THERE, not here.
Bad for the rest of the democratized and sane world, but who cares... "we ASKED for it," right.
I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I look at world politics as interactions not principles. This is a concrete fact: right now I only see Al Quaeda attacking US and their close allies. Short term the Spanish might have made a good decision. Perhaps long term as well, since the terrorists never "win", as long as they are active they will bomb and pull that shit.. they're not going to run out of targets even if they only target the US and US' close allies.
Don't confuse this with being soft. The Spanish just either think this is not their war to fight, or that Iraq is not the right place to do it. AFAIK they have been tough and will be tough to terrorism inside their borders.
I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I look at world politics as interactions not principles. This is a concrete fact: right now I only see Al Quaeda attacking US and their close allies. Short term the Spanish might have made a good decision. Perhaps long term as well, since the terrorists never "win", as long as they are active they will bomb and pull that shit.. they're not going to run out of targets even if they only target the US and US' close allies.
Don't confuse this with being soft. The Spanish just either think this is not their war to fight, or that Iraq is not the right place to do it. AFAIK they have been tough and will be tough to terrorism inside their borders.
In an effort to distill the argument from The Right regarding Spain and how recent events affect the U.S. election, I've come to this:
A vote for Kerry is a vote for BinLaden.
Scrape away all the cleverly worded theses. Brush aside all the historical allegories designed to confuse the issue. Boil the argument down to its core and their case becomes 20/20. Why would anyone in the right mind do something as un-American and criminally negligent as vote for BinLaden?
What has, and continues, to bother me more than anything else about the WOT is I'm convinced that whatever cave bin Laden is currently holed up in, he is rubbing his hands together with glee and grinning like a maniac.
He might be evil but he's also clearly very smart. And he read us well. I don't think the killing of thousands of innocent people on 9/11 was bin Laden's primary objective. It was a means to an end and that end was the same as it's always been for terrorist organizations. To create such fear and loathing, that governments and societies react, respond, are coerced into change.
IMO he's been very successful. As a result of 9/11, governments around the world have changed laws, citizens have seen their rights undermined, free speech has been curtailed, people's way of life has been changed - how they travel, how much they travel, the degree of homeland security have all been affected, airlines have gone out of business, a war has been started, Hussein (who bin Laden almost certainly hated) has been ousted and removed from power, instability in the middle east is at new heights, long-time allies have fallen out with each other, and governments have ignored the will of their people which in turn, as in Spain, then creates the impression that he is able to influence elections.
The true evil genius of bin Laden's plan is that he has discovered such an efficient and highly effective form of terrorism. No more need terrorists worry about going to the effort of frequent small-scale attacks in an effort to intimidate and coerce. Pull off one big one every few years and it's possible to achieve far greater and more widespread a response than any number of Palestinian suicide bombers. See even if the Spanish bombings are proven entirely to be ETA with no involvement from Al Qaeda, it will STILL be bin Laden who is their true architect.
I realise reading this thread that my views on how to deal with what happened on 9/11 really haven't changed much over the last couple of years. Even though I know I'll almost certainly get flamed badly for this (la de dah), I think this is what the world should have done (should do) to deal with bin Laden and his ilk.
1. Go after him relentlessly. Do not lose focus (eg. by going to war with Iraq). Make it clear that the hunt for him will never end, never abate until he is found. When he's found don't kill him and make a martyr of him. Make him suffer to the end of his days.
2. React as little as possible to the attack and to any repeat attacks. Because that is what he wants more than anything else and I really don't think he's that fussy about the type of reaction he gets as long as it involves intimidation and instability. And before anyone says but then more innocent people will die from terrorism, they are anyway in case you hadn't noticed.
3. Acknowledge and work towards (without missiles and guns) what the vast majority of people on this stinking,rotten, f**ked up planet want regardless of colour, creed or nationality, namely - to be able to live a peaceful life, to earn a decent day's pay for a decent day's work, to speak their mind freely, to be able to practise their religion and beliefs without fear of persecution or imprisonment, to have a roof over their heads, clothes to wear and food in the cupboard, to have access to decent, affordable health care, to be able to give their kids an education, and to be able to feel confident that their children and their children's children will have a half decent world to live in.
This is IMO the only way to disarm him and those who will follow him. It's the only way to get the cat back in the bag. And no, it probably won't be pretty along the way.
Quote:
terrorism
n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments
The only way to win is to refuse to play the game.
The only way to win is to refuse to play the game.
Uh, no. That is step 1. Step 2 is to cast off Democracy, abolish capitalism, pledge to Islam, and if you are a Jew- die. I guess that would be Step 2-5, but you get the point.
If that's the bus you wish to embark on, be my guess, but you should do it on your own.
Uh, no. That is step 1. Step 2 is to cast off Democracy, abolish capitalism, pledge to Islam, and if you are a Jew- die. I guess that would be Step 2-5, but you get the point.
If that's the bus you wish to embark on, be my guess, but you should do it on your own.
Randycat I don't mean to be rude but I really think you need to learn to develop your arguments a little more cogently because nothing you've said there relates in any way to my previous post.
The bombings in Madrid and their fallout couldn't be worse. Not only did they scare a country, by all accounts they THREW AN ELECTION!! The attack and it's desired effect were immaculate.
What are the odds we see an attack here in America before November? Those odds just went WAY, WAY up.
Okay, we've been discussing how it was an added incentive to ensure that the new Spanish PM was elected because he had pledged to "remove Spain from war in Iraq" if he was elected.
It would be wrong to say that it was a premeditated and explicit invitation for mayhem, but the end result is that's exactly how it worked out...regardless if the murders were committed by the ETA, Al Queda, a small muslim cell or by the Spanish mafia (AO conspiracy theorists (you know who you are) go ahead, have a party).
To say that this kind of thinking is what conservatives "would want you to think" would get you kicked out of any self-respecting think-tank. It's irresponsible not to consider the Spanish bombing as a potential warm-up.
Saying that terrorism changed the election is a shortcut.
Saying that spaniards give up in front of terrorism is false (and an insult).
After the bombing there was two thesis : Al Quaeda or ETA. Aznar gov just pushed the ETA thesis (and this thesis is wrong : the bombing was made by 6 moroccan people). Aznar have struggle hard against ETA while he was in power, but dispite this, many spaniards will have supported him, because spanish people supported this war against terrorism.
In the contrary the Al Quaeda thesis was unconfortable, because Aznar, went in war dispite the spanish opinion. So the spanish people think that they where bombed, because of a war they did not wanted.
Aznar knew this, but he preferred to push hard on the ETA . Spanish people did not suported this manipulation, just before the election, and voted against the liar.
If the Aznar governement have been honest, and more cautious, they will have not loose this election.
The bad management of the crisis, changed the election. And this is normal.
The Aznar government was getting quite good at getting away with certain amounts of public opprobrium, like when that cargo polluted the Galician shores.
This was mostly due to the PP's relatively good record in the day-to-day running of the country whose economy is doing quite well these days (well, in comparison to some of its neighbours, that is), and while it was tough on ETA it did not indulge in the kind of shady dealings the PSOE had with the GAL, back in the days.
A few days before the elections, as the horrible bombings claimed a death toll unprecedented for a country well-acquainted with terrorism, Aznar thought he could get away with it again, and chose to sell the ETA thesis as hard as he could. That was the last straw.
Ironically, he might have had a better chance getting away with it once more, had he actually acknowledged the Islamist thesis.
Naturally, the Al Qa?eda pleiade (we must not think of it as some kind of centralised, hierarchical organigramme, it's more of a loosely connected highly flexible network) see this as a resounding victory, as in ?Spain distancing itself from the US, hoping to get downgraded in the Global Jihad's to-do-list?.
Encouraged by this outcome, terrorist factions will be eager to manifest themselves in similar ways elsewhere, including in countries which did not support or even opposed the US initiative in Iraq (for the terrorists have numerous ?grievances?, and are finding new ones every day).
As a result, more and more people, in more varied places, will be experiencing their transport system, cafes, resturants, city streets, pizza parlours, etc., in ways they thought only others did.
Yet, Al Qa?eda and its associates welcome it whether their victims react by caving in or by crusadin'-on. For both reactions are based on gut feelings.
A proper reaction must be anything but spontaneous or emotional. You are dealing with a few angry, but very educated people, often schooled in your faculties, who are quite familiar with your high-brow culture and the minutiae of your society. Learn theirs.
The bombings in Madrid and their fallout couldn't be worse. Not only did they scare a country, by all accounts they THREW AN ELECTION!! The attack and it's desired effect were immaculate.
What are the odds we see an attack here in America before November? Those odds just went WAY, WAY up.
Oh, I see. Bad Spain. How dare Spain vote in a way that might make things uncomfortable for us? How dare Spanish people exercise their right to rid themselves of a government that took them into a war that no-one wanted and everyone thought would only serve to make them a target for fascists?
Yet, Al Qa?eda and its associates welcome it whether their victims react by caving in or by crusadin'-on. For both reactions are based on gut feelings.
A proper reaction must be anything but spontaneous or emotional. You are dealing with a few angry, but very educated people, often schooled in your faculties, who are quite familiar with your high-brow culture and the minutiae of your society. Learn theirs.
This is a very interesting point.
The problem is how can we hurt these people, and not falling ourself in terrorist behavioring ?
Comments
Originally posted by Randycat99
X X, you can still count yourself as 1 of 3!
Ha ha! Thanks!
Originally posted by Jubelum
Well, let's just go ahead and let Al Qaeda have the world. Judging by the world's lack of interest in standing against terrorism, it is the logical next step... I dunno, maybe just on this board. In effect, terrorists that number no more than a few thousand are effectively slapping the entire Western Civilization into submission.
This is a war for our way and quality of life. Pathetic how many across the world will not stand up to people that want to end their lives as they know them.
If anyone thinks that by backing out troops or support that terrorism is going to end, they are an idiot. These people do not care- they want you and all that you believe in DEAD. Capitalism, representative democracy, the separation of religion and gov't is all out the window. How quickly we forget Iran in the 1970s and 80s.
Have any doubts? Go live a few months in Jerusalem.
Exactly. Well said.
Originally posted by Jubelum
Dear Spanish Socialists:
Greeting from the USA. Thank you very much for promising to pull your troops out. You have shown the world that goals can be achieved by people with bombs... on trains in this case. You have illustrated your lack of resolve for fighting terrorism. Bombs go off, Spain retreats. One in the win column for Al Qaeda.
Thanks for nothing, you spineless fools.
And again. Well said. Spain just surrendered. In case anyone was wondering, this is exactly the response Al-Queda wanted from 9-11. It now knows it can influence elections by bombing commuter trains.
Well done, Spain.
Originally posted by Jubelum
Hogwash.
Debatable. Al Saman
Tell the Kurds and Iranians that Saddam did not have WMDs.
By terrorists, no? Now what stake would terrorists have in Iraq's regime? I think sensible people can see where I am going here...
There would never have been a war if Saddam had just shown the UN that he destroyed them- but he didn't. Adios, compadre.
I love all these people who are right on board with "human rights" re: gay marriage, but cannot see the human rights victory we had in Iraq. Simply stunning.
Wow. Three reasonable posts in one thread. Add to this the complete MYTH that Saddam had no international terror ties. Palestinian homicide bombers, anyone?
And Harald, why is having Al-Queda attracted to Iraq a bad thing? Let them fight the US Military. I'm sorry when we lose brave men and women over there, but they are there to keep the war THERE, not here.
Originally posted by Gon
Better for the Spaniards, and a good decision for them.
Bad for the rest of the democratized and sane world, but who cares... "we ASKED for it," right.
Originally posted by Jubelum
Bad for the rest of the democratized and sane world, but who cares... "we ASKED for it," right.
I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I look at world politics as interactions not principles. This is a concrete fact: right now I only see Al Quaeda attacking US and their close allies. Short term the Spanish might have made a good decision. Perhaps long term as well, since the terrorists never "win", as long as they are active they will bomb and pull that shit.. they're not going to run out of targets even if they only target the US and US' close allies.
Don't confuse this with being soft. The Spanish just either think this is not their war to fight, or that Iraq is not the right place to do it. AFAIK they have been tough and will be tough to terrorism inside their borders.
Presumably, an effective homeland security program would protect against terrorist threats, period, whether they are domestic or foreign.
Originally posted by Gon
I'm not talking about right or wrong here. I look at world politics as interactions not principles. This is a concrete fact: right now I only see Al Quaeda attacking US and their close allies. Short term the Spanish might have made a good decision. Perhaps long term as well, since the terrorists never "win", as long as they are active they will bomb and pull that shit.. they're not going to run out of targets even if they only target the US and US' close allies.
Don't confuse this with being soft. The Spanish just either think this is not their war to fight, or that Iraq is not the right place to do it. AFAIK they have been tough and will be tough to terrorism inside their borders.
Well said, my friend, well said.
Originally posted by SDW2001
Exactly. Well said.
In an effort to distill the argument from The Right regarding Spain and how recent events affect the U.S. election, I've come to this:
A vote for Kerry is a vote for BinLaden.
Scrape away all the cleverly worded theses. Brush aside all the historical allegories designed to confuse the issue. Boil the argument down to its core and their case becomes 20/20. Why would anyone in the right mind do something as un-American and criminally negligent as vote for BinLaden?
Why do Republicans hate democracy?
He might be evil but he's also clearly very smart. And he read us well. I don't think the killing of thousands of innocent people on 9/11 was bin Laden's primary objective. It was a means to an end and that end was the same as it's always been for terrorist organizations. To create such fear and loathing, that governments and societies react, respond, are coerced into change.
IMO he's been very successful. As a result of 9/11, governments around the world have changed laws, citizens have seen their rights undermined, free speech has been curtailed, people's way of life has been changed - how they travel, how much they travel, the degree of homeland security have all been affected, airlines have gone out of business, a war has been started, Hussein (who bin Laden almost certainly hated) has been ousted and removed from power, instability in the middle east is at new heights, long-time allies have fallen out with each other, and governments have ignored the will of their people which in turn, as in Spain, then creates the impression that he is able to influence elections.
The true evil genius of bin Laden's plan is that he has discovered such an efficient and highly effective form of terrorism. No more need terrorists worry about going to the effort of frequent small-scale attacks in an effort to intimidate and coerce. Pull off one big one every few years and it's possible to achieve far greater and more widespread a response than any number of Palestinian suicide bombers. See even if the Spanish bombings are proven entirely to be ETA with no involvement from Al Qaeda, it will STILL be bin Laden who is their true architect.
I realise reading this thread that my views on how to deal with what happened on 9/11 really haven't changed much over the last couple of years. Even though I know I'll almost certainly get flamed badly for this (la de dah), I think this is what the world should have done (should do) to deal with bin Laden and his ilk.
1. Go after him relentlessly. Do not lose focus (eg. by going to war with Iraq). Make it clear that the hunt for him will never end, never abate until he is found. When he's found don't kill him and make a martyr of him. Make him suffer to the end of his days.
2. React as little as possible to the attack and to any repeat attacks. Because that is what he wants more than anything else and I really don't think he's that fussy about the type of reaction he gets as long as it involves intimidation and instability. And before anyone says but then more innocent people will die from terrorism, they are anyway in case you hadn't noticed.
3. Acknowledge and work towards (without missiles and guns) what the vast majority of people on this stinking,rotten, f**ked up planet want regardless of colour, creed or nationality, namely - to be able to live a peaceful life, to earn a decent day's pay for a decent day's work, to speak their mind freely, to be able to practise their religion and beliefs without fear of persecution or imprisonment, to have a roof over their heads, clothes to wear and food in the cupboard, to have access to decent, affordable health care, to be able to give their kids an education, and to be able to feel confident that their children and their children's children will have a half decent world to live in.
This is IMO the only way to disarm him and those who will follow him. It's the only way to get the cat back in the bag. And no, it probably won't be pretty along the way.
terrorism
n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments
The only way to win is to refuse to play the game.
Originally posted by Jubelum
Well said, my friend, well said.
You post this after I've contradicted half you've said in this thread, and silently disagree with the rest?
It has to be an attempt at evil reverse psychology!
Originally posted by crazychester
The only way to win is to refuse to play the game.
Uh, no. That is step 1. Step 2 is to cast off Democracy, abolish capitalism, pledge to Islam, and if you are a Jew- die. I guess that would be Step 2-5, but you get the point.
If that's the bus you wish to embark on, be my guess, but you should do it on your own.
Originally posted by Randycat99
Uh, no. That is step 1. Step 2 is to cast off Democracy, abolish capitalism, pledge to Islam, and if you are a Jew- die. I guess that would be Step 2-5, but you get the point.
If that's the bus you wish to embark on, be my guess, but you should do it on your own.
Randycat I don't mean to be rude but I really think you need to learn to develop your arguments a little more cogently because nothing you've said there relates in any way to my previous post.
What are the odds we see an attack here in America before November? Those odds just went WAY, WAY up.
It would be wrong to say that it was a premeditated and explicit invitation for mayhem, but the end result is that's exactly how it worked out...regardless if the murders were committed by the ETA, Al Queda, a small muslim cell or by the Spanish mafia (AO conspiracy theorists (you know who you are) go ahead, have a party).
To say that this kind of thinking is what conservatives "would want you to think" would get you kicked out of any self-respecting think-tank. It's irresponsible not to consider the Spanish bombing as a potential warm-up.
Saying that spaniards give up in front of terrorism is false (and an insult).
After the bombing there was two thesis : Al Quaeda or ETA. Aznar gov just pushed the ETA thesis (and this thesis is wrong : the bombing was made by 6 moroccan people). Aznar have struggle hard against ETA while he was in power, but dispite this, many spaniards will have supported him, because spanish people supported this war against terrorism.
In the contrary the Al Quaeda thesis was unconfortable, because Aznar, went in war dispite the spanish opinion. So the spanish people think that they where bombed, because of a war they did not wanted.
Aznar knew this, but he preferred to push hard on the ETA . Spanish people did not suported this manipulation, just before the election, and voted against the liar.
If the Aznar governement have been honest, and more cautious, they will have not loose this election.
The bad management of the crisis, changed the election. And this is normal.
This was mostly due to the PP's relatively good record in the day-to-day running of the country whose economy is doing quite well these days (well, in comparison to some of its neighbours, that is), and while it was tough on ETA it did not indulge in the kind of shady dealings the PSOE had with the GAL, back in the days.
A few days before the elections, as the horrible bombings claimed a death toll unprecedented for a country well-acquainted with terrorism, Aznar thought he could get away with it again, and chose to sell the ETA thesis as hard as he could. That was the last straw.
Ironically, he might have had a better chance getting away with it once more, had he actually acknowledged the Islamist thesis.
Naturally, the Al Qa?eda pleiade (we must not think of it as some kind of centralised, hierarchical organigramme, it's more of a loosely connected highly flexible network) see this as a resounding victory, as in ?Spain distancing itself from the US, hoping to get downgraded in the Global Jihad's to-do-list?.
Encouraged by this outcome, terrorist factions will be eager to manifest themselves in similar ways elsewhere, including in countries which did not support or even opposed the US initiative in Iraq (for the terrorists have numerous ?grievances?, and are finding new ones every day).
As a result, more and more people, in more varied places, will be experiencing their transport system, cafes, resturants, city streets, pizza parlours, etc., in ways they thought only others did.
Yet, Al Qa?eda and its associates welcome it whether their victims react by caving in or by crusadin'-on. For both reactions are based on gut feelings.
A proper reaction must be anything but spontaneous or emotional. You are dealing with a few angry, but very educated people, often schooled in your faculties, who are quite familiar with your high-brow culture and the minutiae of your society. Learn theirs.
Originally posted by dmz
The bombings in Madrid and their fallout couldn't be worse. Not only did they scare a country, by all accounts they THREW AN ELECTION!! The attack and it's desired effect were immaculate.
What are the odds we see an attack here in America before November? Those odds just went WAY, WAY up.
Oh, I see. Bad Spain. How dare Spain vote in a way that might make things uncomfortable for us? How dare Spanish people exercise their right to rid themselves of a government that took them into a war that no-one wanted and everyone thought would only serve to make them a target for fascists?
No fair.
Originally posted by Immanuel Goldstein
Yet, Al Qa?eda and its associates welcome it whether their victims react by caving in or by crusadin'-on. For both reactions are based on gut feelings.
A proper reaction must be anything but spontaneous or emotional. You are dealing with a few angry, but very educated people, often schooled in your faculties, who are quite familiar with your high-brow culture and the minutiae of your society. Learn theirs.
This is a very interesting point.
The problem is how can we hurt these people, and not falling ourself in terrorist behavioring ?