I'm checking out Democracy in America for the first time---and it just dawned on me the extent that Amercia's success blew DeTocqueville's mind---and how unexpected it was considering that America simply blew off centuries of political latency.
....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.
There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.
Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)
Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.
Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.
I'm checking out Democracy in America for the first time---and it just dawned on me the extent that Amercia's success blew DeTocqueville's mind---and how unexpected it was considering that America simply blew off centuries of political latency.
....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.
There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.
Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)
Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.
Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.
The problem with your post is that he is totally out of topic. The subject is the worst bombing of spain history, a countrie who know well the terrorism. Now you transform this thread in the classical and recurrent thread "europe bash america".
Start a new thread about this, if you want, but do not derail this thread.
jesus sergovius are you my long lost friggin' twin or something. That's my theory, hands off!
Powerdoc I see things are drifting a bit but a lot of this is the topic - just getting to the crux of the problem. The American defintion of democracy seems like a very fluid thing sometimes. But it often seems to boil down to "you're only truly democratic if you agree with us". Riiiight.....
Like so much US foreign policy, some people around here completely fail to grasp that accusing the Spanish people of caving into terrorism is, aside from anything else, incredibly f*cking insulting. (there you go back on topic)
Crazychester, Segovius, i derailed this thread too, I admit that i was pissed to see also people accusing spanish people of caving into terrorism. Spanish people have fought against terrorism since 30 years, and they never gave up.
Defiant, thanks for your update, that bring us back on the topic.
But it turns out it's even worse. Here's what the Financial Times reports from German authorities:
Quote:
Its federal criminal bureau said the Spanish authorities intentionally withheld information and misled German officials over the explosives used in the Madrid bombings. The Spanish conservative government had insisted the Goma 2 Eco dynamite for the explosives had been frequently used by Eta, the Basque separatist movement. On Monday, it admitted that was not the case.
They didn't just mislead their own people, they also endangered the investigation itself by misleading other crime agencies. Since the group behind the bombings was spread throughout Europe, cooperation with other police forces was essential to quickly cracking the case. Playing games in a case like this really did have the potential to let the bombers get away.
I'd say Aznar and the PP have gotten exactly what they deserved.
So by supporting Bush he went against the will of the vast, vast majority of the country, then he shows himself as an absolute crook in his handling of the bombing.
Yet the american right says that voting him out was a bad thing.
Maybe it will be a problem strategically, but Bush shouldn't rely on crooks to be his strongest allies.
So by supporting Bush he went against the will of the vast, vast majority of the country, then he shows himself as an absolute crook in his handling of the bombing.
Yet the american right says that voting him out was a bad thing.
So what exactly are you implying, or are you just leaving that part blank so people can see whatever they feel fits nicely as your notion? Are you suggesting that the American right says that voting him out was a bad thing because he has "shown" himself as an absolute crook? (seeing as how crooks would like crooks, right?) ...or would there be other (more practical) reasons voting him out was a bad thing?
Should we apply this same leap in logic to say things like anybody who was against the Iraqi war (or votes for Kerry, for that matter) wishes that Saddam was still in power? Saddam was a good ruler? Saddam would never harm anyone?
...not really. I'll take your lack of a response as conceding that you have not a better explanation of "what you meant" than the one given. Consider yourself punked.
Are you suggesting that the American right says that voting him out was a bad thing because he has "shown" himself as an absolute crook?
Where did he imply this?
Aznar ignored the will of the people all along and hoped to get away with it. In any functioning democracy this is bound to fail sooner or later. Rather ironically, it fired back right after a murderous attack - which will appear as a victory to AQ.
Nice lesson on how a bad deed is leading to even worse results.
Of course the US right wing has nothing better to do than try to smear it on spanish voters instead of evaluating the strategy they and their allies are using. What are they going to do if more countries are tired of being lied to (in the UN, no less)? Elect themselves new voters?
It's a bad deed either way you choose to go. Unfortunately, some people choose to disregard the "alternative" bad deed, with respect to if they are on the left or the right. The real observation to make is which bad deed is the worser.
...not really. I'll take your lack of a response as conceding that you have not a better explanation of "what you meant" than the one given. Consider yourself punked.
August 3, 1970? right.
Although if the date's true, this post would explain your occupation.
Comments
....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.
There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.
Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)
Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.
Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.
Originally posted by msantti
Well, I would not go to that extreme.
Bush just refuses to be a terrorist sympathizer.
No, trust me: everyone hates your President. They really do.
If you serve in the army you should have more respect for veterans.
I do have ALOT of respect towards veterans. Just not him.
No different than the liberals who disrespect Bush.
Be nice to see Kerry not waffle on an issue.
What Bush is doing is wrong!
What Bush is doing won't work.
Then come on Mr. Kerry, lay out what you are going to do than be critical on Bush.
everyone hates your President.
Well, "everyone" would then have to include me.
Sorry, its now an inacurate statement.
Originally posted by dmz
I'm checking out Democracy in America for the first time---and it just dawned on me the extent that Amercia's success blew DeTocqueville's mind---and how unexpected it was considering that America simply blew off centuries of political latency.
....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.
There has been a long contest for dominance between Europeans and Amercians. Using ancient "screw you" techniques, England should know more than anyone how "helpful" Amercia has been in maintaining it's colonial interests. Other Erupean countries felt America's pinch after WWII as well. To date, America has dominated the west. Europe, sensibly would like that to be otherwise.
Culturally this dominance has been a different story. (except maybe for the rubbish coming out of Hollywood and Microsoft)
Europe (generalizing agian) wants it's world influence back and has played hardball to get America's attention. Iraq was one such round, the recent tariffs thingy was another. In politics you don't get concessions unless you are a motherf**ker, and true to form, there has been a constant stream of invective coming out of Eruope for some time, on why Amercia is inferior, mentally, morally and politically. The mainstream American press, for its own reasons presents this invective to America's citizens as SINCERE CRITISISM of America.
Any Americam who believes any critisism from Europe to be sincere at it's core is being very, very naive.
The problem with your post is that he is totally out of topic. The subject is the worst bombing of spain history, a countrie who know well the terrorism. Now you transform this thread in the classical and recurrent thread "europe bash america".
Start a new thread about this, if you want, but do not derail this thread.
Originally posted by dmz
....Especially after the failure of the French revolution it must have been hard to take knowing how badly his own country had failed.
The French revolution did not fail. Your post demonstrates a very poor understanding of history and the revolutionary process.
Originally posted by msantti
I do have ALOT of respect towards veterans. Just not him.
No different than the liberals who disrespect Bush.
Be nice to see Kerry not waffle on an issue.
What Bush is doing is wrong!
What Bush is doing won't work.
Then come on Mr. Kerry, lay out what you are going to do than be critical on Bush.
You have perfectly the right to hate or disrespect Kerry, but i still don't see why, by your own words, he is the choice of terrorists.
Have you any serious arguments about this point ?
Powerdoc I see things are drifting a bit but a lot of this is the topic - just getting to the crux of the problem. The American defintion of democracy seems like a very fluid thing sometimes. But it often seems to boil down to "you're only truly democratic if you agree with us". Riiiight.....
Like so much US foreign policy, some people around here completely fail to grasp that accusing the Spanish people of caving into terrorism is, aside from anything else, incredibly f*cking insulting. (there you go back on topic)
http://www.tagi.ch/dyn/news/ausland/358022.html (German)
Six suspects are said to be identified. Five men are on the run, one has been caught.
Aznar is said to have been calling newspapers, and pressing them to say that it was ETA. Uh-oh. Major Uh-Oh.
http://www.tagi.ch/dyn/news/ausland/358075.html (German)
Defiant, thanks for your update, that bring us back on the topic.
Originally posted by segovius
I have a theory ...........get it out of your system and we can all wind-up the next newbie in a couple of hundred years.
Good post.
Sorry for the derail attempt.
Al Qaeda has a fascination to kill innocent people.
Why don't they just go after the powers that be.
Oh wait, they can't do that so they will just go for the easy kill.
Way to go Al Qaeda.
BOMBING DECEPTION EVEN WORSE THAN WE THOUGHT?....It's pretty well established by now that José MarÃ*a Aznar's PP party did its best to mislead the Spanish people about who was responsible for last Thursday's bombing because they thought blaming ETA would help them politically. They have since gotten their reward at the polling booth for this deception.
But it turns out it's even worse. Here's what the Financial Times reports from German authorities:
Its federal criminal bureau said the Spanish authorities intentionally withheld information and misled German officials over the explosives used in the Madrid bombings. The Spanish conservative government had insisted the Goma 2 Eco dynamite for the explosives had been frequently used by Eta, the Basque separatist movement. On Monday, it admitted that was not the case.
They didn't just mislead their own people, they also endangered the investigation itself by misleading other crime agencies. Since the group behind the bombings was spread throughout Europe, cooperation with other police forces was essential to quickly cracking the case. Playing games in a case like this really did have the potential to let the bombers get away.
I'd say Aznar and the PP have gotten exactly what they deserved.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/arc..._03/003506.php
So by supporting Bush he went against the will of the vast, vast majority of the country, then he shows himself as an absolute crook in his handling of the bombing.
Yet the american right says that voting him out was a bad thing.
Maybe it will be a problem strategically, but Bush shouldn't rely on crooks to be his strongest allies.
Originally posted by giant
So by supporting Bush he went against the will of the vast, vast majority of the country, then he shows himself as an absolute crook in his handling of the bombing.
Yet the american right says that voting him out was a bad thing.
So what exactly are you implying, or are you just leaving that part blank so people can see whatever they feel fits nicely as your notion? Are you suggesting that the American right says that voting him out was a bad thing because he has "shown" himself as an absolute crook? (seeing as how crooks would like crooks, right?) ...or would there be other (more practical) reasons voting him out was a bad thing?
Should we apply this same leap in logic to say things like anybody who was against the Iraqi war (or votes for Kerry, for that matter) wishes that Saddam was still in power? Saddam was a good ruler? Saddam would never harm anyone?
Seriously, now...
Originally posted by Randycat99
leap in logic
It's your 'logic'* that's doing all the leaping in that post.
*'logic' in this context meaning 'imagination'
Originally posted by Randycat99
Are you suggesting that the American right says that voting him out was a bad thing because he has "shown" himself as an absolute crook?
Where did he imply this?
Aznar ignored the will of the people all along and hoped to get away with it. In any functioning democracy this is bound to fail sooner or later. Rather ironically, it fired back right after a murderous attack - which will appear as a victory to AQ.
Nice lesson on how a bad deed is leading to even worse results.
Of course the US right wing has nothing better to do than try to smear it on spanish voters instead of evaluating the strategy they and their allies are using. What are they going to do if more countries are tired of being lied to (in the UN, no less)? Elect themselves new voters?
Originally posted by Randycat99
...not really. I'll take your lack of a response as conceding that you have not a better explanation of "what you meant" than the one given. Consider yourself punked.
August 3, 1970? right.
Although if the date's true, this post would explain your occupation.