Jesus Damn Man Quite complaining about being "parsed"!!! If you don't like people addressing specific points then make sure that your statements don't include crazy inflamator comments. Its not that hard. I've already said this and I don't know why I'm mentioning it again except for the fact that it bugs me to no end. "Awww guys stop parsing me...." Well killer stop peppering your replies with brooms in asses and stop making blanker statements. If you comment then each point of your comment is, and probably will be, addressed at some point. If you call everyone terrorist sympathizers then we will address that. You have to have over a thousand posts and you don't get that yet? If you make valid arguments then we will address those arguments. We may disagree but the argument will be addressed. If you say "How many times will you apologize for terrorists and murderers?" then that statement is free game for rebuttal. It's not a hard system. If you post it it will be commented on. Stop bitching (ironic huh me bitching about someone else bitching).
Hey, I really don't want to argue with you. I come here to learn and express my thoughts.
Wether you believe it or not, I do put some thought into what I say, and I try to be clear and civil. I try to read posts completely and respond accordingly. I try not to parse others because I feel that is lazy way to debate. I am not asking something that I am not willing to follow.
I do not think that I know everything so I try to convey opinions and preface my comments as such.
It is called civil debate. Parse if you must but I will point it out when you or anyone else does. Nothing personal. I think of it as doing my part to help people to be civil around here. You have to agree that is something that is needed here.
I've been thinking about this link to Rumsfeld and the other civilians in the Pentagon, and it seems to me that the missing link is this Major General Geoffrey Miller. He needs his ass hauled before Congress with the rest of them.
The Investigating Team also reviewed the Assessment of DoD Counter-Terrorism Interrogation and Detention Operations in Iraq conducted by MG Geoffrey D. Miller, Commander, Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO)._ From 31 August to 9 September 2003, MG Miller led a team of personnel experienced in strategic interrogation to HQ, CJTF-7 and the Iraqi Survey Group (ISG) to review current Iraqi Theater ability to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence._ MG Miller?s team focused on three areas:_ intelligence integration, synchronization, and fusion; interrogation operations; and detention operations._ MG Miller?s team used JTF-GTMO procedures and interrogation authorities as baselines.
and later
Quote:
With respect to interrogation, MG Miller?s Team recommended that CJTF-7 dedicate and train a detention guard force subordinate to the Joint Interrogation Debriefing Center (JIDC) Commander that ?sets the conditions for the successful interrogation and exploitation of internees/detainees.?
So Miller was the commander at Gitmo who was sent by the Pentagon to tell the Iraqi prison soldiers how to "exploit" detainees. He was there in Aug.-Sept. 2003. The abuses took place in the months following his visit there.
According to this, Miller was sent by the Pentagon to "Gitmo-ize" Iraqi prisons in order to better interrogate detainees.
Quote:
Karpinski said the decision about transferring control of the prison to military intelligence officials was broached at a September 2003 meeting with Miller, who was then in charge of the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, known colloquially as "Gitmo." Miller had come to Iraq at the insistence of top political officials in the Pentagon, who were frustrated by the meager intelligence coming from prisoners.
Now, Gitmo has been declared by the president as not subject to the Geneva Conventions. And then the politicals at the Pentagon send the guy in charge of Gitmo to Iraq. And then violations of Geneva Conventions start to occur. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a little fishy?
I think the most generous interpretation of what happened is that after Miller was sent to put the intelligence people in charge of this prison, the MPs basically started participating in the interrogations, and that's where things got out of control. A less generous interpretation is that Rummy/Boykin/Bush simply said f*ck 'em, tell those MI people to do whatever it takes.
Hot off the presses. Our weasel of a prime minister's response.
Yeah we saw the report but it wasn't our concern because there were no Australians involved. euiwfwibfeyocyurhfgcufwhegau cwahidncnofhe ncufehuw......
Ooops! Sorry that was my head crashing onto the keyboard.
And we've taken 100 Iraqis prisoner but they're not our responsibility either because we handed them over to the Yanks. jdhbkhc fhfcif hf hio ihfe efiufdhiqh......
Damn! Did it again.
We can always rely on Little Johnny Howard to shame us.
The U.S. military has launched an investigation into the suspected mistreatment of an Afghan police officer while in the custody of coalition forces.
The officer says he was stripped naked, photographed, kicked and subjected to sexual taunting while being held by coalition forces in August last year, a U.S. Embassy statement said on Wednesday.
Remember the Tipton Three, those three young men from the north of England who were recently released without charge from Guantanamo Bay? The three young men who weren't even interviewed by the British police when they were released?
I read all the statements they made on their release, about what they suffered, and still a part of me thought "well, they're angry, they're not exactly going to paint their experience in a flattering light."
I still had some residual idea that the American army hadn't descended into embarrassing, vicious brutality. I know better now. Your country's values evidently aren't worth fighting for, NaplesX, if you're prepared to abandon them so easily.
Lynndie England is insisting that all the photos in which she is depicted were posed by her COs...
Quote:
"Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons...and the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'"
So, is she just trying to squirm her way out of what she did by following a lawyer's script, or were the abuses directed from on high?
I'm telling you, it's Miller. At the request of the Pentagon he came to Iraq from Gitmo, put the intelligence people in charge of the prison, and the intelligence people told the MPs what to do. There's no question, IMO, that this goes right to Boykin or Cambrone or even Rumsfeld and Bush. One or all of them told Miller to go and Gitmo-ize Abu Ghrain.
I still want to see England (as the face that people 'recognize' over Karpinski) on TV just to see how believable she is...if she comes across as sincere, then a lot more people are going to start questioning up the chain of command.
I'm telling you, it's Miller. At the request of the Pentagon he came to Iraq from Gitmo, put the intelligence people in charge of the prison, and the intelligence people told the MPs what to do. There's no question, IMO, that this goes right to Boykin or Cambrone or even Rumsfeld and Bush. One or all of them told Miller to go and Gitmo-ize Abu Ghrain.
When the Secretary of Defence publicly advocates using interrogation techniques that are regarded as torture (click the link and do a text search for 'food and sleep deprivation' - you'll find it in between 'beatings on the soles of the feet and genitalia' and 'vaginal and anal rape with truncheons') you have to wonder if more permanently damaging forms of torture are occasionally regarded as acceptable as well.
Just to be clear, Miller is there now, and has been for several months. But he was sent there from Gitmo for a consulting visit in fall 2003, shortly before all this bad stuff started. Taguba criticized Miller's recommendations. Did you notice that although the Senate only asked Taguba to come, the Pentagon sent some minders yesterday to go with him?
What's strange about it is that earlier he said these prisoners were under the Geneva Conventions. So are they or aren't they?
As far as Rumsfeld is concerned, I expect the Geneva Convention has gone the same way as the Convention Against Torture. He most likely flushed it soon after wiping his ass with it.
More instances where the US State Department has criticized countries for using food and/or sleep deprivation. Note also the number of times that sleep deprivation is referred to as 'torture' (interestingly, when Saudi Arabia or Israel does it it is an 'interrogation technique').
Of course, Rumsfeld may not have been advocating full on starvation or food deprivation...he may just have been advocating dietary interrogation techniques such as tryptophan starvation (which causes seratonin production to shut down, leading to depression and temporary psychosis).
Kind of a clever way around those pesky conventions that prohibit the use of drugs in interrogation.
Comments
Originally posted by faust9
Jesus Damn Man Quite complaining about being "parsed"!!! If you don't like people addressing specific points then make sure that your statements don't include crazy inflamator comments. Its not that hard. I've already said this and I don't know why I'm mentioning it again except for the fact that it bugs me to no end. "Awww guys stop parsing me...." Well killer stop peppering your replies with brooms in asses and stop making blanker statements. If you comment then each point of your comment is, and probably will be, addressed at some point. If you call everyone terrorist sympathizers then we will address that. You have to have over a thousand posts and you don't get that yet? If you make valid arguments then we will address those arguments. We may disagree but the argument will be addressed. If you say "How many times will you apologize for terrorists and murderers?" then that statement is free game for rebuttal. It's not a hard system. If you post it it will be commented on. Stop bitching (ironic huh me bitching about someone else bitching).
Hey, I really don't want to argue with you. I come here to learn and express my thoughts.
Wether you believe it or not, I do put some thought into what I say, and I try to be clear and civil. I try to read posts completely and respond accordingly. I try not to parse others because I feel that is lazy way to debate. I am not asking something that I am not willing to follow.
I do not think that I know everything so I try to convey opinions and preface my comments as such.
It is called civil debate. Parse if you must but I will point it out when you or anyone else does. Nothing personal. I think of it as doing my part to help people to be civil around here. You have to agree that is something that is needed here.
Originally posted by NaplesX
That is actually kinda funny. Seriously, thanks.
I needed that after watching that damned video.
My hans are still shaking.
That's because you're a wimp. The video is nothing scary. Every man, woman and child in the USA should see it.
Here's what Taguba has to say:
The Investigating Team also reviewed the Assessment of DoD Counter-Terrorism Interrogation and Detention Operations in Iraq conducted by MG Geoffrey D. Miller, Commander, Joint Task Force Guantanamo (JTF-GTMO)._ From 31 August to 9 September 2003, MG Miller led a team of personnel experienced in strategic interrogation to HQ, CJTF-7 and the Iraqi Survey Group (ISG) to review current Iraqi Theater ability to rapidly exploit internees for actionable intelligence._ MG Miller?s team focused on three areas:_ intelligence integration, synchronization, and fusion; interrogation operations; and detention operations._ MG Miller?s team used JTF-GTMO procedures and interrogation authorities as baselines.
and later
With respect to interrogation, MG Miller?s Team recommended that CJTF-7 dedicate and train a detention guard force subordinate to the Joint Interrogation Debriefing Center (JIDC) Commander that ?sets the conditions for the successful interrogation and exploitation of internees/detainees.?
So Miller was the commander at Gitmo who was sent by the Pentagon to tell the Iraqi prison soldiers how to "exploit" detainees. He was there in Aug.-Sept. 2003. The abuses took place in the months following his visit there.
According to this, Miller was sent by the Pentagon to "Gitmo-ize" Iraqi prisons in order to better interrogate detainees.
Karpinski said the decision about transferring control of the prison to military intelligence officials was broached at a September 2003 meeting with Miller, who was then in charge of the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, known colloquially as "Gitmo." Miller had come to Iraq at the insistence of top political officials in the Pentagon, who were frustrated by the meager intelligence coming from prisoners.
Now, Gitmo has been declared by the president as not subject to the Geneva Conventions. And then the politicals at the Pentagon send the guy in charge of Gitmo to Iraq. And then violations of Geneva Conventions start to occur. I'm sorry, but isn't that just a little fishy?
I think the most generous interpretation of what happened is that after Miller was sent to put the intelligence people in charge of this prison, the MPs basically started participating in the interrogations, and that's where things got out of control. A less generous interpretation is that Rummy/Boykin/Bush simply said f*ck 'em, tell those MI people to do whatever it takes.
To ALL others who have posted above BRussell's last post either post without insults or be banned from AO.
Fellowship
Originally posted by NaplesX
To say that the torture or whatever you call it at the prison is even close to that video, is just sick.
How is an Iraqi killing an American different to an American killing an Iraqi?
Maybe you'd forgotten, but US Army people murdered Iraqis in that prison.
Would you like the people who beheaded Nick Berg executed?
Would you like the people who beat Iraqi prisoners to death executed?
If one and not the other, why not?
Yeah we saw the report but it wasn't our concern because there were no Australians involved. euiwfwibfeyocyurhfgcufwhegau cwahidncnofhe ncufehuw......
Ooops! Sorry that was my head crashing onto the keyboard.
And we've taken 100 Iraqis prisoner but they're not our responsibility either because we handed them over to the Yanks. jdhbkhc fhfcif hf hio ihfe efiufdhiqh......
Damn! Did it again.
We can always rely on Little Johnny Howard to shame us.
They lie. And they KNOW they lie.
The U.S. military has launched an investigation into the suspected mistreatment of an Afghan police officer while in the custody of coalition forces.
The officer says he was stripped naked, photographed, kicked and subjected to sexual taunting while being held by coalition forces in August last year, a U.S. Embassy statement said on Wednesday.
Link
Striking similarities, someone please tell me this is not standard operating procedure in US jails and/or military...
I read all the statements they made on their release, about what they suffered, and still a part of me thought "well, they're angry, they're not exactly going to paint their experience in a flattering light."
I still had some residual idea that the American army hadn't descended into embarrassing, vicious brutality. I know better now. Your country's values evidently aren't worth fighting for, NaplesX, if you're prepared to abandon them so easily.
Sellouts.
"Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons...and the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'"
So, is she just trying to squirm her way out of what she did by following a lawyer's script, or were the abuses directed from on high?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in616921.shtml
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Lynndie England is insisting that all the photos in which she is depicted were posed by her COs...
So, is she just trying to squirm her way out of what she did by following a lawyer's script, or were the abuses directed from on high?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in616921.shtml
Ugh. Karpinski has said the same thing.
I'm telling you, it's Miller. At the request of the Pentagon he came to Iraq from Gitmo, put the intelligence people in charge of the prison, and the intelligence people told the MPs what to do. There's no question, IMO, that this goes right to Boykin or Cambrone or even Rumsfeld and Bush. One or all of them told Miller to go and Gitmo-ize Abu Ghrain.
Hnmmmm...so Rumsfeld is publicly supporting sleep dep and starvation as interrogation techiniques.
I wonder what techniques he supports privately?
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Rumsfeld Backs Iraq Interrogation Methods
Hnmmmm...so Rumsfeld is publicly supporting sleep dep and starvation as interrogation techiniques.
I wonder what techniques he supports privately?
Why cast aspersions?
I wander what it really ads to the debate.
Originally posted by BRussell
I'm telling you, it's Miller. At the request of the Pentagon he came to Iraq from Gitmo, put the intelligence people in charge of the prison, and the intelligence people told the MPs what to do. There's no question, IMO, that this goes right to Boykin or Cambrone or even Rumsfeld and Bush. One or all of them told Miller to go and Gitmo-ize Abu Ghrain.
That's what it's starting to look like.
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Rumsfeld Backs Iraq Interrogation Methods
Hnmmmm...so Rumsfeld is publicly supporting sleep dep and starvation as interrogation techiniques.
I wonder what techniques he supports privately?
What's strange about it is that earlier he said these prisoners were under the Geneva Conventions. So are they or aren't they?
Originally posted by NaplesX
Why cast aspersions?
I wander what it really ads to the debate.
When the Secretary of Defence publicly advocates using interrogation techniques that are regarded as torture (click the link and do a text search for 'food and sleep deprivation' - you'll find it in between 'beatings on the soles of the feet and genitalia' and 'vaginal and anal rape with truncheons') you have to wonder if more permanently damaging forms of torture are occasionally regarded as acceptable as well.
Originally posted by giant
That's what it's starting to look like.
Just to be clear, Miller is there now, and has been for several months. But he was sent there from Gitmo for a consulting visit in fall 2003, shortly before all this bad stuff started. Taguba criticized Miller's recommendations. Did you notice that although the Senate only asked Taguba to come, the Pentagon sent some minders yesterday to go with him?
Oops, I guess you changed your post.
Originally posted by BRussell
What's strange about it is that earlier he said these prisoners were under the Geneva Conventions. So are they or aren't they?
As far as Rumsfeld is concerned, I expect the Geneva Convention has gone the same way as the Convention Against Torture. He most likely flushed it soon after wiping his ass with it.
Click
Of course, Rumsfeld may not have been advocating full on starvation or food deprivation...he may just have been advocating dietary interrogation techniques such as tryptophan starvation (which causes seratonin production to shut down, leading to depression and temporary psychosis).
Kind of a clever way around those pesky conventions that prohibit the use of drugs in interrogation.