Just to be clear, Miller is there now, and has been for several months. But he was sent there from Gitmo for a consulting visit in fall 2003, shortly before all this bad stuff started. Taguba criticized Miller's recommendations. Did you notice that although the Senate only asked Taguba to come, the Pentagon sent some minders yesterday to go with him?
Oops, I guess you changed your post.
Yeah, the timeline was a little messy in my head there for a second.
I'm starting to get the impression that this was a natural extension of accepted torture methods (sleep deprivation ...) when leadership promotes radical beliefs within the military. The fact that the line of responsibility apparently goes straight through a wacko and a straussian may give some indications as to why we need to watch more closely who gets appointed to those spots.
Members of Congress viewed fresh photos and videos of Iraqi prisoner abuse on Wednesday, and said they included disturbing images of torture and humiliation.
"The whole thing is disgusting and it's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
"I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. "Take the worse case and multiply it several times over."
The town is spelled Khurma and is approx. 20 miles north of Halabjah. Remember that name?
Yeah, I remember Khurmal from way back when Powell tried to pass that off and it turned out it wasn't even an area controlled by Ansar (which, btw, was/is backed by iran and likely not al-qaeda). Not to mention what a big deal it was when journalists went there prior to the war to see that there was no evidence of chemical weapons. Maybe you slept through that.
Members of Congress viewed fresh photos and videos of Iraqi prisoner abuse on Wednesday, and said they included disturbing images of torture and humiliation.
"The whole thing is disgusting and it's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
"I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. "Take the worse case and multiply it several times over."
Several lawmakers said photos of sexual intercourse were among the images defense officials screened for lawmakers in a top-secret room in the Capitol. At least some of them appeared to depict consensual sex involving U.S. military personnel, they added.
Others showed military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, as well as shots of Iraqi women commanded to expose their breasts, some said. Others said there were images of hooded Iraqi prisoners being forced to masturbate while cameras captured the scene.
Quote:
But Rumsfeld defended U.S. military interrogation techniques in general Wednesday, rejecting complaints that they violated international rules and could endanger U.S. captives.
Quote:
Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Armed Services Committee, agreed that the materials should remain secret at least until trials of U.S. soldiers got under way to ?protect the integrity of the legal process.? He also said keeping them private would lessen the chance that they could ?inspire the enemy.?
For Huda Shaker, the humiliation began at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Baghdad. The American soldiers demanded to search her handbag. When she refused one of the soldiers pointed his gun towards her chest.
"He pointed the laser sight directly in the middle of my chest," said Professor Shaker, a political scientist at Baghdad University. "Then he pointed to his penis. He told me, 'Come here, bitch, I'm going to fuck you.'"
[...]
According to Prof Shaker, several women held in Abu Ghraib jail were sexually abused, including one who was raped by an American military policeman and became pregnant. She has now disappeared.
[...]
Yesterday Prof Shaker, who began researching the subject this year for Amnesty International, said she believed the woman involved had been killed.
[...]
Journalists were forbidden from talking to the women, who are kept upstairs in windowless 2.5 metre by 1.5 metre cells. The women wailed and shouted.
[...]
Other allegations being investigated are that a 12- or 13-year-old girl had been stripped naked in the block and paraded in front of male inmates.
The Baltimore Sun quotes Colin Powell as saying that "we kept the president informed of the concerns that were raised by the ICRC and other international organizations as part of my regular briefings of the president, and advised him that we had to follow these issues, and when we got notes sent to us or reports sent to us ... we had to respond to them, and the president certainly made it clear that that?s what he expected us to do."
Powell further said that he, Rice and Rumsfeld kept Bush ?fully informed of the concerns that were being expressed, not in specific details, but in general terms.?
Not only does that contradict what the White House and the president have said. It contradicts the testimony of one of Don Rumsfeld's principal deputies from only yesterday.
A BBC report on a film featuring a female Camp Bucca warden shows a glimpse into the mindset of these characters.
Nice.
I must say that you quoting is kind of misleading, it seems to say that they killed the prisoners when she was saying that the prisoners died from Sand Viper bites. The prisoners also seemed to be treated pretty well at that camp as far as I could tell.
I must say that you quoting is kind of misleading, it seems to say that they killed the prisoners when she was saying that the prisoners died from Sand Viper bites. The prisoners also seemed to be treated pretty well at that camp as far as I could tell.
err...
Quote:
"If we shoot any more of the Iraqis, or attack any of them, they're gonna supposedly come in and attack the camp," she says on tape. "But we'll believe that when it actually happens, because we've already killed another Iraqi just last night when I was working. So I don't know what's going on..."
James D. Villa, an attorney in Washington DC who used to command the now-infamous 372d MP Company, has an excellent op-ed in Wednesday's Washington Post. He makes a number of solid points in this column, and I imagine these abuses would have been caught much earlier had he been in command in late 2003. Here's the part of his argument resonated the most with me:
Quote:
These actions were the result of huge command failures. The senior person charged thus far is Ivan L. Frederick, a staff sergeant. In an MP company, a person of his rank is normally placed in charge of a squad of 11 soldiers. I refuse to believe that no leader above Frederick was aware of or complicit in the abuses that were apparently widespread throughout the prison. While certain officers were relieved of their commands and other leaders were given letters of reprimand, the failure of unit leaders, from company to brigade, is stunning.
The 372nd has approximately 150 soldiers and is divided into five platoons, four of which consist of MPs. The company commander is directly responsible for all actions taken by his soldiers, or those that they fail to take. The 372nd's commander and the relevant platoon leader either knew or should have known of the actions of their subordinates, as should have their noncommissioned officers. All these leaders failed in their most basic responsibilities of supervising their soldiers in the performance of their duties.
Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, commander of the 800th MP Brigade, which ran the prison, has spent most of the past week on television telling the same story: that she never knew about this, that her MPs were working for military intelligence people, that she was not to blame. Had she spent as much time leading her troops as she apparently has preparing for appearances on MSNBC (with her lawyer in tow), the Army might have stemmed these incidents early on. I was taught in ROTC that a leader is responsible for what his or her unit does or fails to do. I was also taught that a leader takes responsibility for his or her soldiers. Either by commission or omission, Karpinski and her chain of command have failed those soldiers in her brigade and, ultimately, this country.
Right... but until we see charges preferred against these senior officers and NCOs, the message is that the Army condones and tolerates this derelict behavior by the commanders in the 800th MP Brigade. I'm not really sure what the Army is waiting for. It seems like there's plenty of material in MG Taguba's 6,000-page report upon which to substantiate criminal charges, especially where we're talking about such a clear leadership failure.
posted by Phillip at 22:10
--------
"A Failure of Leadership"
The New York Times has the full transcript of today's Senate Armed Services Committee hearing online, and the L.A. Times has a good report on the hearing too. But all you really need to read is the following excerpt from the transcript, involving an exchange between Sen. John Warner and Army MG Antonio Taguba:
Quote:
SEN. WARNER: I ask the same question to you. In simple laymen's language, so it can be understood, what do you think went wrong, in terms of the failure of discipline and the failure of this interrogation process to be consistent with known regulations, national and international? And also, to what extent do you have knowledge of any participation by other than U.S. military, namely Central Intelligence Agency and/or contractors, in the performance of the interrogations?
GEN. TAGUBA: Sir, as far as your last question, I'll answer that first. The comments about participation of other government agencies or contractors were related to us through interviews that we conducted. It was related to our examination of written statements and, of course, some other records. With regards to your first question, sir, there was a failure of leadership --
* * *
SEN. WARNER: Can you give us a quick synopsis of participation by other U.S. government agencies?
GEN. TAGUBA: Sir, they refer to them as OGAs or MIs. And when I asked for clarification it's because of the way they wore their uniforms. Some of them did not wear a uniform, and so how would I ask them to clarify further if they knew any of these people? And they gave us names, as stipulated on their statements. They also gave us names of those who are MI, uniformed MI in personnel in the U.S. Army, and that was substantiated by the comments made to us by other witnesses as we conducted our interviews.
SEN. WARNER: Right. In simple words, your own soldiers' language, how did this happen?
GEN. TAGUBA: Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down; lack of discipline; no training whatsoever; and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant. Those are my comments.
Roger that. The brigade commander, BG Janis Karpinski, has become quite proficient at pointing fingers downwards, sideways, and anywhere else but her own chest. So has the battalion commander, LTC Jerry Phillabaum. I have yet to see a military officer in this chain of command fall on his or her sword by taking command responsibility. A military commander is responsible for all that his/her unit does or fails to do. Period. End of discussion. Admirably, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld took this to heart with his opening statement to SASC last week. Unfortunately, the key leaders in the 800th MP Brigade still don't get it. They still blame others, from the CIA to their own troops, for the things that happened in their units on their watch.
The burden of command is very heavy; it's not an easy job. Commanders must do more than set standards -- they must enforce them too. You can't just tell soldiers to conduct Preventive Maintenance Checks & Services ("PMCS" in Army-speak), you have to physically visit the motor pool to make sure they're doing it. You don't just tell your soldiers to fill their canteens with water; you check them before a patrol to make sure they did. Soldiers do what leaders check. Over time, you may develop trust in a unit that lets you back off some aspects of direct supervision. But even then, you still go down to the motor pool during PMCS, even if it's just to shoot the breeze with your troops. That's what leadership is all about. It's not enough to simply pass on policy guidance from higher HQ about the Geneva Conventions and prisoner treatment. Leaders must physically check their soldiers' performance to ensure the standards are being met. Higher level commanders must also physically inspect what's going on, to ensure that the right thing is being done.
Soldiers do what leaders check. It's a fundamental principle hammered into every lieutenant at the National Training Center, Joint Readiness Training Center, Ranger School, and countless other leadership-training courses. But it wasn't followed here. The leaders in this MP brigade slacked off. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt -- they probably did establish some standards of behavior for their MPs. But they failed to enforce them. They failed to get up and make midnight spot-checks on their troops. They failed to establish supervisory systems to ensure the standards were being met. And the result was that this behavior went on for far too long, undetected and unchecked.
Ultimately, these leaders must be held accountable for these failures. Administrative reprimands, like the ones given so far, are wholly insufficient in my opinion. The Army is prosecuting soldiers for criminal conduct at Abu Ghraib; it should prosecute their leaders as well. What sort of a messages does it send to the average soldier in the field when you hammer these junior troops but let their officers off with a slap on the wrist? Not a good one, in my opinion.
More interesting information, including some I've not seen mentioned or discussed before:
Quote:
Meanwhile, U.S. troops_ who served at Abu Ghraib said Thursday that sex and alcoholism were commonplace among guards even though they were forbidden. Soldiers even set up a candle-lit room for sex shows, they said.
?There was lots of affairs. There was all kinds of adultery and alcoholism and all kinds of crap going on,? Dave Bischel, a National Guardsman with the 870th Military Police unit, told Reuters. Bischel returned home last month after service at Abu Ghraib.
The statements added to the reactions of lawmakers who viewed the hundreds of photos and video clips shot at Abu Ghraib. The New York Post quoted a member of Congress as saying on condition of anonymity that among the materials were numerous images showing England having sex with numerous partners.
?It appeared to be consensual,? the lawmaker said. The newspaper quoted another lawmaker as saying, ?Almost everybody was naked all the time.?
Bischel told Reuters: ?There was a bed found in one of the abandoned buildings. There was a mattress on the ground. They had chairs all circled around it and candles all over the place. Chairs [were] around it obviously for an audience.?
Sex rumors were rampant among those serving in Abu Ghraib. ?One of the female soldiers supposedly had sex in a gang bang,? said Terry Stowe, another California MP who has since returned home. ?From time to time, things like this would happen.?
The editor of the Daily Mirror, publisher of the British abuse photos, has just resigned. Presumably because the photos of UK soldiers pissing on people were faked.
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.
Where is the outrage.
Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.
Where is the outrage.
Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.
Where is the outrage.
Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.
Comments
Originally posted by BRussell
Just to be clear, Miller is there now, and has been for several months. But he was sent there from Gitmo for a consulting visit in fall 2003, shortly before all this bad stuff started. Taguba criticized Miller's recommendations. Did you notice that although the Senate only asked Taguba to come, the Pentagon sent some minders yesterday to go with him?
Oops, I guess you changed your post.
Yeah, the timeline was a little messy in my head there for a second.
I'm starting to get the impression that this was a natural extension of accepted torture methods (sleep deprivation ...) when leadership promotes radical beliefs within the military. The fact that the line of responsibility apparently goes straight through a wacko and a straussian may give some indications as to why we need to watch more closely who gets appointed to those spots.
"The whole thing is disgusting and it's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
"I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. "Take the worse case and multiply it several times over."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_43&printer=1
Originally posted by NaplesX
The town is spelled Khurma and is approx. 20 miles north of Halabjah. Remember that name?
Yeah, I remember Khurmal from way back when Powell tried to pass that off and it turned out it wasn't even an area controlled by Ansar (which, btw, was/is backed by iran and likely not al-qaeda). Not to mention what a big deal it was when journalists went there prior to the war to see that there was no evidence of chemical weapons. Maybe you slept through that.
Originally posted by sammi jo
Members of Congress viewed fresh photos and videos of Iraqi prisoner abuse on Wednesday, and said they included disturbing images of torture and humiliation.
"The whole thing is disgusting and it's hard to believe that this actually is taking place in a military facility," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.
"I expected that these pictures would be very hard on the stomach lining and it was significantly worse than anything that I had anticipated," said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore. "Take the worse case and multiply it several times over."
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...e_43&printer=1
Just awful
Several lawmakers said photos of sexual intercourse were among the images defense officials screened for lawmakers in a top-secret room in the Capitol. At least some of them appeared to depict consensual sex involving U.S. military personnel, they added.
Others showed military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, as well as shots of Iraqi women commanded to expose their breasts, some said. Others said there were images of hooded Iraqi prisoners being forced to masturbate while cameras captured the scene.
But Rumsfeld defended U.S. military interrogation techniques in general Wednesday, rejecting complaints that they violated international rules and could endanger U.S. captives.
Sen. John Warner, R-Va., chairman of the Armed Services Committee, agreed that the materials should remain secret at least until trials of U.S. soldiers got under way to ?protect the integrity of the legal process.? He also said keeping them private would lessen the chance that they could ?inspire the enemy.?
You don't say..................
All quoted material taken from This MSNBC Link
Fellowship
For Huda Shaker, the humiliation began at a checkpoint on the outskirts of Baghdad. The American soldiers demanded to search her handbag. When she refused one of the soldiers pointed his gun towards her chest.
"He pointed the laser sight directly in the middle of my chest," said Professor Shaker, a political scientist at Baghdad University. "Then he pointed to his penis. He told me, 'Come here, bitch, I'm going to fuck you.'"
[...]
According to Prof Shaker, several women held in Abu Ghraib jail were sexually abused, including one who was raped by an American military policeman and became pregnant. She has now disappeared.
[...]
Yesterday Prof Shaker, who began researching the subject this year for Amnesty International, said she believed the woman involved had been killed.
[...]
Journalists were forbidden from talking to the women, who are kept upstairs in windowless 2.5 metre by 1.5 metre cells. The women wailed and shouted.
[...]
Other allegations being investigated are that a 12- or 13-year-old girl had been stripped naked in the block and paraded in front of male inmates.
That's what gutless pricks always do. Prey on the most vulnerable.
The Baltimore Sun quotes Colin Powell as saying that "we kept the president informed of the concerns that were raised by the ICRC and other international organizations as part of my regular briefings of the president, and advised him that we had to follow these issues, and when we got notes sent to us or reports sent to us ... we had to respond to them, and the president certainly made it clear that that?s what he expected us to do."
Powell further said that he, Rice and Rumsfeld kept Bush ?fully informed of the concerns that were being expressed, not in specific details, but in general terms.?
Not only does that contradict what the White House and the president have said. It contradicts the testimony of one of Don Rumsfeld's principal deputies from only yesterday.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/arc..._09.php#002952
Originally posted by segovius
Camp Bucca
see the video:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in616849.shtml
It's like scene from Brazil...
Originally posted by segovius
A BBC report on a film featuring a female Camp Bucca warden shows a glimpse into the mindset of these characters.
Nice.
I must say that you quoting is kind of misleading, it seems to say that they killed the prisoners when she was saying that the prisoners died from Sand Viper bites. The prisoners also seemed to be treated pretty well at that camp as far as I could tell.
Originally posted by pfflam
I must say that you quoting is kind of misleading, it seems to say that they killed the prisoners when she was saying that the prisoners died from Sand Viper bites. The prisoners also seemed to be treated pretty well at that camp as far as I could tell.
err...
"If we shoot any more of the Iraqis, or attack any of them, they're gonna supposedly come in and attack the camp," she says on tape. "But we'll believe that when it actually happens, because we've already killed another Iraqi just last night when I was working. So I don't know what's going on..."
Originally posted by segovius
I never read that - my source for this is the link I posted. The only reference to sand vipers was:
And see New's comment above also.
Its in the video . . . the 'Sand Viper' phrase is the first part of the sentence about the two deaths.
"A Failure of Leadership" - Part II
James D. Villa, an attorney in Washington DC who used to command the now-infamous 372d MP Company, has an excellent op-ed in Wednesday's Washington Post. He makes a number of solid points in this column, and I imagine these abuses would have been caught much earlier had he been in command in late 2003. Here's the part of his argument resonated the most with me:
These actions were the result of huge command failures. The senior person charged thus far is Ivan L. Frederick, a staff sergeant. In an MP company, a person of his rank is normally placed in charge of a squad of 11 soldiers. I refuse to believe that no leader above Frederick was aware of or complicit in the abuses that were apparently widespread throughout the prison. While certain officers were relieved of their commands and other leaders were given letters of reprimand, the failure of unit leaders, from company to brigade, is stunning.
The 372nd has approximately 150 soldiers and is divided into five platoons, four of which consist of MPs. The company commander is directly responsible for all actions taken by his soldiers, or those that they fail to take. The 372nd's commander and the relevant platoon leader either knew or should have known of the actions of their subordinates, as should have their noncommissioned officers. All these leaders failed in their most basic responsibilities of supervising their soldiers in the performance of their duties.
Brig. Gen. Janis L. Karpinski, commander of the 800th MP Brigade, which ran the prison, has spent most of the past week on television telling the same story: that she never knew about this, that her MPs were working for military intelligence people, that she was not to blame. Had she spent as much time leading her troops as she apparently has preparing for appearances on MSNBC (with her lawyer in tow), the Army might have stemmed these incidents early on. I was taught in ROTC that a leader is responsible for what his or her unit does or fails to do. I was also taught that a leader takes responsibility for his or her soldiers. Either by commission or omission, Karpinski and her chain of command have failed those soldiers in her brigade and, ultimately, this country.
Right... but until we see charges preferred against these senior officers and NCOs, the message is that the Army condones and tolerates this derelict behavior by the commanders in the 800th MP Brigade. I'm not really sure what the Army is waiting for. It seems like there's plenty of material in MG Taguba's 6,000-page report upon which to substantiate criminal charges, especially where we're talking about such a clear leadership failure.
posted by Phillip at 22:10
--------
"A Failure of Leadership"
The New York Times has the full transcript of today's Senate Armed Services Committee hearing online, and the L.A. Times has a good report on the hearing too. But all you really need to read is the following excerpt from the transcript, involving an exchange between Sen. John Warner and Army MG Antonio Taguba:
SEN. WARNER: I ask the same question to you. In simple laymen's language, so it can be understood, what do you think went wrong, in terms of the failure of discipline and the failure of this interrogation process to be consistent with known regulations, national and international? And also, to what extent do you have knowledge of any participation by other than U.S. military, namely Central Intelligence Agency and/or contractors, in the performance of the interrogations?
GEN. TAGUBA: Sir, as far as your last question, I'll answer that first. The comments about participation of other government agencies or contractors were related to us through interviews that we conducted. It was related to our examination of written statements and, of course, some other records. With regards to your first question, sir, there was a failure of leadership --
* * *
SEN. WARNER: Can you give us a quick synopsis of participation by other U.S. government agencies?
GEN. TAGUBA: Sir, they refer to them as OGAs or MIs. And when I asked for clarification it's because of the way they wore their uniforms. Some of them did not wear a uniform, and so how would I ask them to clarify further if they knew any of these people? And they gave us names, as stipulated on their statements. They also gave us names of those who are MI, uniformed MI in personnel in the U.S. Army, and that was substantiated by the comments made to us by other witnesses as we conducted our interviews.
SEN. WARNER: Right. In simple words, your own soldiers' language, how did this happen?
GEN. TAGUBA: Failure in leadership, sir, from the brigade commander on down; lack of discipline; no training whatsoever; and no supervision. Supervisory omission was rampant. Those are my comments.
Roger that. The brigade commander, BG Janis Karpinski, has become quite proficient at pointing fingers downwards, sideways, and anywhere else but her own chest. So has the battalion commander, LTC Jerry Phillabaum. I have yet to see a military officer in this chain of command fall on his or her sword by taking command responsibility. A military commander is responsible for all that his/her unit does or fails to do. Period. End of discussion. Admirably, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld took this to heart with his opening statement to SASC last week. Unfortunately, the key leaders in the 800th MP Brigade still don't get it. They still blame others, from the CIA to their own troops, for the things that happened in their units on their watch.
The burden of command is very heavy; it's not an easy job. Commanders must do more than set standards -- they must enforce them too. You can't just tell soldiers to conduct Preventive Maintenance Checks & Services ("PMCS" in Army-speak), you have to physically visit the motor pool to make sure they're doing it. You don't just tell your soldiers to fill their canteens with water; you check them before a patrol to make sure they did. Soldiers do what leaders check. Over time, you may develop trust in a unit that lets you back off some aspects of direct supervision. But even then, you still go down to the motor pool during PMCS, even if it's just to shoot the breeze with your troops. That's what leadership is all about. It's not enough to simply pass on policy guidance from higher HQ about the Geneva Conventions and prisoner treatment. Leaders must physically check their soldiers' performance to ensure the standards are being met. Higher level commanders must also physically inspect what's going on, to ensure that the right thing is being done.
Soldiers do what leaders check. It's a fundamental principle hammered into every lieutenant at the National Training Center, Joint Readiness Training Center, Ranger School, and countless other leadership-training courses. But it wasn't followed here. The leaders in this MP brigade slacked off. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt -- they probably did establish some standards of behavior for their MPs. But they failed to enforce them. They failed to get up and make midnight spot-checks on their troops. They failed to establish supervisory systems to ensure the standards were being met. And the result was that this behavior went on for far too long, undetected and unchecked.
Ultimately, these leaders must be held accountable for these failures. Administrative reprimands, like the ones given so far, are wholly insufficient in my opinion. The Army is prosecuting soldiers for criminal conduct at Abu Ghraib; it should prosecute their leaders as well. What sort of a messages does it send to the average soldier in the field when you hammer these junior troops but let their officers off with a slap on the wrist? Not a good one, in my opinion.
posted by Phillip at 18:20
http://philcarter.blogspot.com/2004_...33889009465923
Originally posted by segovius
New abu Ghraib photo may show intelligence officers in charge of abuse.
More interesting information, including some I've not seen mentioned or discussed before:
Meanwhile, U.S. troops_ who served at Abu Ghraib said Thursday that sex and alcoholism were commonplace among guards even though they were forbidden. Soldiers even set up a candle-lit room for sex shows, they said.
?There was lots of affairs. There was all kinds of adultery and alcoholism and all kinds of crap going on,? Dave Bischel, a National Guardsman with the 870th Military Police unit, told Reuters. Bischel returned home last month after service at Abu Ghraib.
The statements added to the reactions of lawmakers who viewed the hundreds of photos and video clips shot at Abu Ghraib. The New York Post quoted a member of Congress as saying on condition of anonymity that among the materials were numerous images showing England having sex with numerous partners.
?It appeared to be consensual,? the lawmaker said. The newspaper quoted another lawmaker as saying, ?Almost everybody was naked all the time.?
Bischel told Reuters: ?There was a bed found in one of the abandoned buildings. There was a mattress on the ground. They had chairs all circled around it and candles all over the place. Chairs [were] around it obviously for an audience.?
Sex rumors were rampant among those serving in Abu Ghraib. ?One of the female soldiers supposedly had sex in a gang bang,? said Terry Stowe, another California MP who has since returned home. ?From time to time, things like this would happen.?
Originally posted by addabox
...America's sex mad and godless culture...
Maybe they do have a point?
... Donald looks to heaven ...
Originally posted by New
Maybe they do have a point?
nah, they just don't know how puritan we really are...
Where is the outrage.
Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.
https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg
Originally posted by NaplesX
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.
Where is the outrage.
Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.
https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg
a) They willingly posed, the prisoners didn't.
b) It's not a pyramid.
Originally posted by NaplesX
This picture shows the same behavior by apparently all black men jumping up and down on caucasian naked pyramids in art studios every where. This is a systemic problem and should be dealt with, soon.
Where is the outrage.
Models and photographers are messed up and should have never learned how to pose or take picture in the place.
https://www.phaidon.com/images/spreads/0714843652_6.jpg
at least you have a sense of humor.