Considering that at least two (and possibly as many as ten) of the prisoners who have died in US custory are being treated as having been murdered...I'd say that yes, the abuse of prisoners is on the same level. Murder is murder.
You should know if not from watching all of the cop shows, that all deaths are treated by investigators as murders until that is ruled out. That is a very misleading statement like many others made in AO.
My response to Luca in the Nick Berg thread (modified slightly)
Not even close?
I think you forget that we killed this guy-- and other undocumented prisoners who never received numbers. Right now, the Army is investigating 25 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. Again, the scale of abuses at that camp is much worse than you and other Americans may realize. Conversely, it's something that many vengeful, militant Arabs clearly understand. I would read the indispensable Seymour Hersh's latest piece, "Chain of Command" for a good background.
I found that picture in a magazine called Creativity that we get at where I work. Everyone here found at least a little humor in the similarity, not the original acts. This included some left leaners.
Lighten up.
What's funny is that you see similarity where there is none.
There certainly is an essential difference between the horrendous acts abuse perpetrated on prisoners in Abu Ghraib, and an act of prememditated cold-blooded murder by beheading. Taking a human life is a more grave offense from most civilised perspectives.
In any case, both the abusing jailers and the beaheaders are bipedal beasts who should be prosecuted and punished with the fullest harshness a society of law permits.
I would personally confront anyone I know for such things.
Don't say we, those guys are not WE!
They will be taken care of in a fair and quick manner. They do not represent all of the good and upright people that I know.
I am mature enough to realise the context of 'We'. And I personally say we, because although I was not there in person to commit this, I am ashamed to be associated to the countries 'we' belong to that produces the morals of the people who did this. 'We' all have some collective responsibility however apparently small in this, and 'we' must ensure that it is rectified. The fact that you seem to have abstracted yourself from 'We' to 'nothing to do with me' quite clearly illustrates to me that If I were to describe your selfishness in appropriate terms, I'd have Fellowship all over my back.
Now we're getting close. Come on NaplesX, you can do it. Just come out and say it. Hell George Orwell has even written the script for you.
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
All you gotta do is substitute humans for animals and we're there.
We are dealing with several different issues that some want to lump into one:
1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
2. Prisoner murders (alleged)
If proven true, very bad, of course. But no video was taken of the murder and if it can't be proven, it can't be prosecuted. If it can then it should be prosecuted.
Like I said this is yet another issue, even if the same people involved in the abuse are part of it.
Abuse is way different than murder.
3. Cold blooded Murder.
Terrorists committed murder for the world to see, no question if or how they did it, the proof is on the tape. It is hard to question it, unless you want to conjure up some conspiracy thing.
I agree, death is death, but causes differ and so does culpability.
I am mature enough to realise the context of 'We'. And I personally say we, because although I was not there in person to commit this, I am ashamed to be associated to the countries 'we' belong to that produces the morals of the people who did this. 'We' all have some collective responsibility however apparently small in this, and 'we' must ensure that it is rectified. The fact that you seem to have abstracted yourself from 'We' to 'nothing to do with me' quite clearly illustrates to me that If I were to describe your selfishness in appropriate terms, I'd have Fellowship all over my back.
You are wrong IMO. We as responsible humans have the obligation to condemn certain actions and make sure they do not happen if "we" can help it.
However "We" are not responsible for the action taken by a few (I don't care if it is 7 or 100, don't bother with that ridiculous angle).
I certainly will take no, none, zero responsibility for what those idiots and exploiters did other than to say I would or will not let that kind of thing take place in my presence, if I could at all help it.
We are not obligated to take on blame for those actions. For in that case everything is everyones fault everywhere at any given time.
We are dealing with several different issues that some want to lump into one:
1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
2. Prisoner murders (alleged)
If proven true, very bad, of course. But no video was taken of the murder and if it can't be proven, it can't be prosecuted. If it can then it should be prosecuted.
Like I said this is yet another issue, even if the same people involved in the abuse are part of it.
Abuse is way different than murder.
3. Cold blooded Murder.
Terrorists committed murder for the world to see, no question if or how they did it, the proof is on the tape. It is hard to question it, unless you want to conjure up some conspiracy thing.
I agree, death is death, but causes differ and so does culpability.
Ok. So at last we see what you are, without the equivocation. No more need be said.
I see no reason to respond to another post of yours, ever. I would urge my fellow AOers to do the same.
There are limits of human decency that transcend "everybody has an opinion.
You are either brain damaged, or, as has been suggested, a sociopath.
You are wrong IMO. We as responsible humans have the obligation to condemn certain actions and make sure they do not happen if "we" can help it.
However "We" are not responsible for the action taken by a few (I don't care if it is 7 or 100, don't bother with that ridiculous angle).
I certainly will take no, none, zero responsibility for what those idiots and exploiters did other than to say I would or will not let that kind of thing take place in my presence, if I could at all help it.
We are not obligated to take on blame for those actions. For in that case everything is everyones fault everywhere at any given time.
Ive been here for over 3 years now, and had a fair share of arguments, some Im not too proud of, and some have gotten well out of hand, I've pretty muched laughed them all away, but for the first time ever, I actually feel totally disgusted by the insensitivity and lack of compassion of another human. To say
1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
is probably the most disgusting thing I have ever read in my entire life. NaplesX is the 1st person ever on my ignore list. I actually hope you meet the same fate as the iraqis, and live - to realise how much of a cunt you are.
iraq has ties to al quida (very loosely alledged and denied by just about everyone except cheney)
so lets attack
prisioners are abused (alledged? lots of photo evidence)
prisioners are murdered (alledged..but photos and whispers and even so not so whispers)
the few being court martialed are all saying they were told to do these things from high above
so lets do nothing
g
ps it is not hazing when you have absolutely no ability to say no or to leave...if it was you or your family being treated like that while held in your own country against your will by occupation forces, beaten, humilated, starved, attacked by dogs etc, i'm sure you would think of it as "blowing off steam", as "horseplay" etc
Wow, if that is the way you feel, but I am not sure how you came to that conclusion from what I said.
But if that is the way it has to be, it has to be.
While I disagree with addabox about not responding to you, maybe it's the part about the prison actions being just like hazing or S & M that's got his goat.
Quote:
NaplesX foolishly said:
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
I mean come on, ever hear of the term consent? Hazing and S & M are both consensual. What happened in Abu Ghraib was obviously not. You really are diminishing those actions with your post, whether you see it or not. Why not just say both are wrong, but murder is worse than abuse? I think most people would agree with that. Why go through the apologetics?
iraq has ties to al quida (very loosely alledged and denied by just about everyone except cheney)
so lets attack
prisioners are abusded (alledged? lots of photo evidence)
prisioners are murdered (alledged..but photos and whispers and even so not so whispers)
the few being court martialed are all saying they were told to do these things from high above
so lets do nothing
g
ps it is not hazing when you have absolutely no ability to say no or to leave...if it was you or your family being treated like that while held in your own country against your will by occupation forces, beaten, humilated, starved, attacked by dogs etc, i'm sure you would think of it as "blowing off steam", as "horseplay" etc
You guys are very, what is the word I am looking for?.... sensitive.
Yeah, that's the word. I know that the truth hurts (as has been said all too often here) my words are as truthful in that they present other possibilities to what others put forth. I did not assert anything as fact other than what i know personally. It's hard, I know, just breath. It will be fine.
Again, read a little slower if you must, I said these things are bad, and let me add, should be condemned if they are proven to be true. But unlike the terrorist types that killed Nick Berg and hundreds of thousands all over the globe, we have a justice system, even inside our war machine to fairly try legal cases and dole out fair punishment not revenge.
I have faith in that system, and wish that people would let it work. If not then I am not sure what some of you are pushing for.
Did Nick B. deserve his fate. Was it a fair punishment for his "wrongdoings"? Was that really the purpose of that showing? Are we now even with AQ and the terrorists?
These are things I would like to hear some answers on.
While I disagree with addabox about not responding to you, maybe it's the part about the prison actions being just like hazing or S & M that's got his goat. I mean come on, ever hear of the term consent? Hazing and S & M are both consensual. What happened in Abu Ghraib was obviously not. You really are diminishing those actions with your post, whether you see it or not. Why not just say both are wrong, but murder is worse than abuse? I think most people would agree with that. Why go through the apologetics?
Maybe that is where the contention is. I feel that anything you can walk away from is better than death.
How many times have i posted in this thread alone that I think these thing are bad, wrong. Abuse in any form is wrong. That includes the constant verbal abuse found here. But one must separate the abuse by degree. Verbal abuse is less wrong than physical, physical abuse is less wrong than murder, and all degrees in between. Then you have to factor in mitigating circumstances.
This is not really that difficult a thing to grasp IMO.
Of I was to follow some of the logic presented here, a lot of the people would be deemed no better then the terrorists by that definition.
i simply fighting for context over emotion. And like many things discussed here in AO we don't know the whole story, yet many are jumping to far fetch conclusions, while based on logic, may not be based on the true facts.
of course the berg thing was awful, of course he didn't deserve it...i said so in the other, correct thread...i even wished the people a long trip to hell for it
but we didn't use our justice system against iraq, we used our warriors
we did not haze these prisioners, we systematically abused them
and though i really do feel for the berg family, i also really feel for the families of the 10's of thousands of iraqi people that bushie has had killed in iraq...
what they did to berg is brutal and inhuman, but so is dropping bombs on pregnant women and children...yet that happens in war almost every day
g
quote:
i simply fighting for context over emotion. And like many things discussed here in AO we don't know the whole story, yet many are jumping to far fetch conclusions, while based on logic, may not be based on the true facts.
sort of like going to war because iraq was a direct threat to america...kinda like going to war with iraq because they had WOMD
Comments
Originally posted by kneelbeforezod
Considering that at least two (and possibly as many as ten) of the prisoners who have died in US custory are being treated as having been murdered...I'd say that yes, the abuse of prisoners is on the same level. Murder is murder.
You should know if not from watching all of the cop shows, that all deaths are treated by investigators as murders until that is ruled out. That is a very misleading statement like many others made in AO.
Originally posted by ShawnJ
My response to Luca in the Nick Berg thread (modified slightly)
Not even close?
I think you forget that we killed this guy-- and other undocumented prisoners who never received numbers. Right now, the Army is investigating 25 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. Again, the scale of abuses at that camp is much worse than you and other Americans may realize. Conversely, it's something that many vengeful, militant Arabs clearly understand. I would read the indispensable Seymour Hersh's latest piece, "Chain of Command" for a good background.
We?
Who is we?
Not me or anyone I know, check beck a few posts.
Originally posted by NaplesX
You seem to place the value of the abuses of prisoners on the same level with the brutal killing of Nick Berg IMO.
I don't see them as even being close, so no I haven't compared the two.
Now we're getting close. Come on NaplesX, you can do it. Just come out and say it. Hell George Orwell has even written the script for you.
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
All you gotta do is substitute humans for animals and we're there.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Oh please get off the pulpit.
I found that picture in a magazine called Creativity that we get at where I work. Everyone here found at least a little humor in the similarity, not the original acts. This included some left leaners.
Lighten up.
What's funny is that you see similarity where there is none.
Funny in the 'laugh at' not 'laugh with' way.
In any case, both the abusing jailers and the beaheaders are bipedal beasts who should be prosecuted and punished with the fullest harshness a society of law permits.
Originally posted by NaplesX
Who is we?
Not me or anyone I know.
I would personally confront anyone I know for such things.
Don't say we, those guys are not WE!
They will be taken care of in a fair and quick manner. They do not represent all of the good and upright people that I know.
I am mature enough to realise the context of 'We'. And I personally say we, because although I was not there in person to commit this, I am ashamed to be associated to the countries 'we' belong to that produces the morals of the people who did this. 'We' all have some collective responsibility however apparently small in this, and 'we' must ensure that it is rectified. The fact that you seem to have abstracted yourself from 'We' to 'nothing to do with me' quite clearly illustrates to me that If I were to describe your selfishness in appropriate terms, I'd have Fellowship all over my back.
Originally posted by crazychester
Now we're getting close. Come on NaplesX, you can do it. Just come out and say it. Hell George Orwell has even written the script for you.
"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."
All you gotta do is substitute humans for animals and we're there.
We are dealing with several different issues that some want to lump into one:
1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
2. Prisoner murders (alleged)
If proven true, very bad, of course. But no video was taken of the murder and if it can't be proven, it can't be prosecuted. If it can then it should be prosecuted.
Like I said this is yet another issue, even if the same people involved in the abuse are part of it.
Abuse is way different than murder.
3. Cold blooded Murder.
Terrorists committed murder for the world to see, no question if or how they did it, the proof is on the tape. It is hard to question it, unless you want to conjure up some conspiracy thing.
I agree, death is death, but causes differ and so does culpability.
Originally posted by MarcUK
I am mature enough to realise the context of 'We'. And I personally say we, because although I was not there in person to commit this, I am ashamed to be associated to the countries 'we' belong to that produces the morals of the people who did this. 'We' all have some collective responsibility however apparently small in this, and 'we' must ensure that it is rectified. The fact that you seem to have abstracted yourself from 'We' to 'nothing to do with me' quite clearly illustrates to me that If I were to describe your selfishness in appropriate terms, I'd have Fellowship all over my back.
You are wrong IMO. We as responsible humans have the obligation to condemn certain actions and make sure they do not happen if "we" can help it.
However "We" are not responsible for the action taken by a few (I don't care if it is 7 or 100, don't bother with that ridiculous angle).
I certainly will take no, none, zero responsibility for what those idiots and exploiters did other than to say I would or will not let that kind of thing take place in my presence, if I could at all help it.
We are not obligated to take on blame for those actions. For in that case everything is everyones fault everywhere at any given time.
Originally posted by audiopollution
What's funny is that you see similarity where there is none.
Funny in the 'laugh at' not 'laugh with' way.
I said humorous.
Come on let's not fight about this retarded thing. I thought it was interesting and kinda funny, you didn't. No big deal.
Originally posted by NaplesX
We are dealing with several different issues that some want to lump into one:
1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
2. Prisoner murders (alleged)
If proven true, very bad, of course. But no video was taken of the murder and if it can't be proven, it can't be prosecuted. If it can then it should be prosecuted.
Like I said this is yet another issue, even if the same people involved in the abuse are part of it.
Abuse is way different than murder.
3. Cold blooded Murder.
Terrorists committed murder for the world to see, no question if or how they did it, the proof is on the tape. It is hard to question it, unless you want to conjure up some conspiracy thing.
I agree, death is death, but causes differ and so does culpability.
Ok. So at last we see what you are, without the equivocation. No more need be said.
I see no reason to respond to another post of yours, ever. I would urge my fellow AOers to do the same.
There are limits of human decency that transcend "everybody has an opinion.
You are either brain damaged, or, as has been suggested, a sociopath.
Originally posted by NaplesX
You are wrong IMO. We as responsible humans have the obligation to condemn certain actions and make sure they do not happen if "we" can help it.
However "We" are not responsible for the action taken by a few (I don't care if it is 7 or 100, don't bother with that ridiculous angle).
I certainly will take no, none, zero responsibility for what those idiots and exploiters did other than to say I would or will not let that kind of thing take place in my presence, if I could at all help it.
We are not obligated to take on blame for those actions. For in that case everything is everyones fault everywhere at any given time.
You are technically correct, Dr Spock.
Originally posted by addabox
Ok. So at last we see what you are, without the equivocation. No more need be said.
I see no reason to respond to another post of yours, ever. I would urge my fellow AOers to do the same.
There are limits of human decency that transcend "everybody has an opinion.
You are either brain damaged, or, as has been suggested, a sociopath.
Wow, if that is the way you feel, but I am not sure how you came to that conclusion from what I said.
But if that is the way it has to be, it has to be.
1.) Prisoner abuse (alleged)
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
is probably the most disgusting thing I have ever read in my entire life. NaplesX is the 1st person ever on my ignore list. I actually hope you meet the same fate as the iraqis, and live - to realise how much of a cunt you are.
iraq has WOMD (alledged)
iraq has ties to al quida (very loosely alledged and denied by just about everyone except cheney)
so lets attack
prisioners are abused (alledged? lots of photo evidence)
prisioners are murdered (alledged..but photos and whispers and even so not so whispers)
the few being court martialed are all saying they were told to do these things from high above
so lets do nothing
g
ps it is not hazing when you have absolutely no ability to say no or to leave...if it was you or your family being treated like that while held in your own country against your will by occupation forces, beaten, humilated, starved, attacked by dogs etc, i'm sure you would think of it as "blowing off steam", as "horseplay" etc
Originally posted by NaplesX
Wow, if that is the way you feel, but I am not sure how you came to that conclusion from what I said.
But if that is the way it has to be, it has to be.
While I disagree with addabox about not responding to you, maybe it's the part about the prison actions being just like hazing or S & M that's got his goat.
NaplesX foolishly said:
Not much different to the hazing that goes on in colleges, hell my own cousins abused me and embarrassed me when we were kids. Not that it is right but these kind of things happen. We don't know but maybe these prisoners did something to provoke it. Once again wrong but we don't know all of the details. Some like having those things done to them. S & M anyone?
I mean come on, ever hear of the term consent? Hazing and S & M are both consensual. What happened in Abu Ghraib was obviously not. You really are diminishing those actions with your post, whether you see it or not. Why not just say both are wrong, but murder is worse than abuse? I think most people would agree with that. Why go through the apologetics?
Maybe prisons are a bad thing.
Originally posted by thegelding
ahh, the wonders of fuzzy logic
iraq has WOMD (alledged)
iraq has ties to al quida (very loosely alledged and denied by just about everyone except cheney)
so lets attack
prisioners are abusded (alledged? lots of photo evidence)
prisioners are murdered (alledged..but photos and whispers and even so not so whispers)
the few being court martialed are all saying they were told to do these things from high above
so lets do nothing
g
ps it is not hazing when you have absolutely no ability to say no or to leave...if it was you or your family being treated like that while held in your own country against your will by occupation forces, beaten, humilated, starved, attacked by dogs etc, i'm sure you would think of it as "blowing off steam", as "horseplay" etc
You guys are very, what is the word I am looking for?.... sensitive.
Yeah, that's the word. I know that the truth hurts (as has been said all too often here) my words are as truthful in that they present other possibilities to what others put forth. I did not assert anything as fact other than what i know personally. It's hard, I know, just breath. It will be fine.
Again, read a little slower if you must, I said these things are bad, and let me add, should be condemned if they are proven to be true. But unlike the terrorist types that killed Nick Berg and hundreds of thousands all over the globe, we have a justice system, even inside our war machine to fairly try legal cases and dole out fair punishment not revenge.
I have faith in that system, and wish that people would let it work. If not then I am not sure what some of you are pushing for.
Did Nick B. deserve his fate. Was it a fair punishment for his "wrongdoings"? Was that really the purpose of that showing? Are we now even with AQ and the terrorists?
These are things I would like to hear some answers on.
Originally posted by BRussell
While I disagree with addabox about not responding to you, maybe it's the part about the prison actions being just like hazing or S & M that's got his goat. I mean come on, ever hear of the term consent? Hazing and S & M are both consensual. What happened in Abu Ghraib was obviously not. You really are diminishing those actions with your post, whether you see it or not. Why not just say both are wrong, but murder is worse than abuse? I think most people would agree with that. Why go through the apologetics?
Maybe that is where the contention is. I feel that anything you can walk away from is better than death.
How many times have i posted in this thread alone that I think these thing are bad, wrong. Abuse in any form is wrong. That includes the constant verbal abuse found here. But one must separate the abuse by degree. Verbal abuse is less wrong than physical, physical abuse is less wrong than murder, and all degrees in between. Then you have to factor in mitigating circumstances.
This is not really that difficult a thing to grasp IMO.
Of I was to follow some of the logic presented here, a lot of the people would be deemed no better then the terrorists by that definition.
i simply fighting for context over emotion. And like many things discussed here in AO we don't know the whole story, yet many are jumping to far fetch conclusions, while based on logic, may not be based on the true facts.
of course the berg thing was awful, of course he didn't deserve it...i said so in the other, correct thread...i even wished the people a long trip to hell for it
but we didn't use our justice system against iraq, we used our warriors
we did not haze these prisioners, we systematically abused them
and though i really do feel for the berg family, i also really feel for the families of the 10's of thousands of iraqi people that bushie has had killed in iraq...
what they did to berg is brutal and inhuman, but so is dropping bombs on pregnant women and children...yet that happens in war almost every day
g
quote:
i simply fighting for context over emotion. And like many things discussed here in AO we don't know the whole story, yet many are jumping to far fetch conclusions, while based on logic, may not be based on the true facts.
sort of like going to war because iraq was a direct threat to america...kinda like going to war with iraq because they had WOMD