As far as the torture of Iraqi captives by American soldiers... well, that is also completely wrong and shouldn't have been done. Of course it's not nearly as bad as what was done to Nick Berg, but that shouldn't serve as a rationalization for it. Those sorts of things are wrong to do to ANY person, and if we allow ourselves to justify it in this situation, then we're not much better than those we're fighting against. Again, I want to make it clear that the unethical treatment of Iraqi prisoners is obviously not as bad as this grotesque execution, but that cannot serve as justification.
Obviously.
I think you forget that we killed this guy-- and other undocumented prisoners who never received numbers. Right now, the Army is investigating 25 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. Again, the scale of abuses at that camp is much worse than you and other Americans may realize. Conversely, it's something that many vengeful, militant Arabs clearly understand. I would read the indispensable Seymour Hersh's latest piece, "Chain of Command" for a good background.
Being that the motif of your post was one of comparisons, you would be astute to note that you neglected to mention that internal investigation being conducted by AQ for accountibility of the Nick Berg slaying.
And who exactly at this website/on the internet/in this country are supporters of Al Qaeda? And why do you think that someone is automatically an AQ-supporter if they simply question AQ's motives, perhaps thinking that there is a shred of outside force that causes them to act as they do? You said earlier...
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They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
...and that is flawed reasoning. Yes, I do believe that Al Qaeda is more than just a group of evil monsters who take perverse pleasure in brutally murdering people. People always do things for a reason, even a bad one. Maybe the reason they attack Americans isn't even the fault of the US. Maybe it only has a little bit to do with the US. But someone doesn't just get up in the morning and say, "Hey, I think it would be fun to go out and dismember a few people today." Somehow they think they are accomplishing something by doing this.
So perhaps they are reacting in some way to the US. That doesn't mean the US is more evil than AQ. On the contrary, in many cases the retaliation used by one group is far worse than the initial action that caused it. Think about it this way... a stranger accidentally bumps into some guy on the street. A hot-headed person might clock the stranger and knock him out. In that case, the initial action was careless but not that bad, versus the quite drastic action taken by the hot-headed person. So if the US is the stranger, Al Qaeda is the easily angered guy. No, there's no excuse to retaliate to that degree, but he didn't just walk out onto the street and punch some random person. He waited for some kind of excuse to do it.
EDIT Re: ShawnJ:
It is worse than I had originally thought. I've been so busy the past week with school stuff that I haven't kept up on the news. I skimmed over the Iraqi Prisoner thread but I mostly saw pictures of US soldiers humiliating and torturing Iraqi prisoners, not killing them. This is pretty awful.
...Based on expressed views. One should not take "here" as a rigid term, either. Could be here at this website, here on the Internet, here in the US, here etc...
The question isn't so much "who", rather "do they realize which side their stance ultimately gives credence to."
Jesus Christ. That's the most disgusting argument I've ever seen on this board.
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it. You can just read it in the context of their posts- AQ would never do this on their own, right? They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
...
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Do you realize that you said other people - "AQ supporters" - are blaming the Iraq prison scandal for this, and then by the end of your post, you're blaming the release of the pictures of the Iraq prison scandal for this?
Do you realize that you said other people - "AQ supporters" - are blaming the Iraq prison scandal for this, and then by the end of your post, you're blaming the release of the pictures of the Iraq prison scandal for this?
Are you an AQ supporter or something?
Let's cut the last statement.
I am serious.
As for
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Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Correction it is not the media but rather those who wear the uniform who gave "AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
It's the difference between simply remarking that this act is reprehensible under any context vs. saying that plus always balanced with some remark that "we don't belong there" (political), "what do you expect" (flippant and facetious so as to push home the political), "we are just as much the monster as they are" (self-loathing so as to serve the political), etc. Essentially, this resolves down to emphasizing that we deserved this to happen. AQ are held blameless, we condemn ourselves unconditionally until the day we lay down all guns and defenses, offer flowers to everybody, and subsequently let anyone with a "bad attitude" walk over us as they please. As cited earlier, these "AQ" will do whatever to forward a cause via terror and intimidation. It serves no one to hold themself liable for what "AQ" does. "AQ" does what "AQ" does. We are far past the stage where we do or do not get what is coming to us. At some point, you just have to quit splitting hairs and realize that this group is very bad and needs to be taken out. What we are is irrelevant, as long as we persist to maintain the standards that we came into this ordeal with. It doesn't even belong in this topic. This topic is about Nick Berg. The persons who snuffed Nick Berg need to be snuffed- plain and simple, no and's, if's, or but's.
We have no proof that this was the work of al qaeda. Nobody knows who did this, apart from the perps and whoever organized/paid etc them. So lets be rational about it and not automatically believe that what comes up on an 'al qaeda' affiliated website (that nobody has published the URL of) is in any way an accurate representation of what happened. Are we assuming that al qaeda is now an accurate, honest news source, just because it is convenient to do so?
Correction it is not the media but rather those who wear the uniform who gave "AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Fellowship
In BRussell's defense, he facetiously pointed out the absurdity of Randycat's argument-- whereas Randycat himself is actually serious. But yeah-- best to stop all discussion of someone's trolling post. <-- Sorry Alc, I couldn't help myself!
Do you suspect that AQ as a group would not condone this event? ...or are they complicit, yet not involved? Would they speak up, if it really was somebody else that was claiming their name? Not that we would suddenly believe them if such a statement was issued. So really, what have they got to lose by officially owning up to it or not owning up to it?
Your notion of a US govt conspiracy is interesting, but not enough to "stop the presses" in my head. I would not be disagreeable with an investigation on that, if that is what you are calling for.
The video isn't that bad. If you can't stomach it then I don't think you're experienced or mature enough to participate in political discussions here in AO.
I don't think in any way shape or form that it has to do with being mature enough to have political discussions. That is some very weird macho BS.
What is most disgusting to me is that I was not really effected by the video. I have become so desensitized that watching someone lose their life hardly affects me.(?!?!) it is unfortunate, but I have seen so many videos or pictures like this on the internet over the years. I am more moved when I think about his family and the families of all those that we have not heard aobut who have given their lives.
It is only a matter of time until we start seeing the photos of all of the innocent Iraqi civilians that have been killed as a result of the "war in Iraq". Then the sh*t is really going to hit the political fan.
It's the difference between simply remarking that this act is reprehensible under any context vs. saying that plus always balanced with some remark that "we don't belong there" (political), "what do you expect" (flippant and facetious so as to push home the political), "we are just as much the monster as they are" (self-loathing so as to serve the political), etc.
It's the difference between saying "I disagree with you" and saying "You support the enemy" plus "You clearly hate America."
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Essentially,
No.
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this resolves down to emphasizing that we deserved this to happen.
No. Berg's death is a great tragedy. No one deserves to die in such a horrible manner. Berg most certainly did not ask for this to happen to him. Berg did willingly enter a war-zone, however, and it's more than a bit disingenuous to argue as if he were unaware of this fact.
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AQ are held blameless,
I don't know what bizarro world you live in, but I don't know ANYONE who thinks that AQ is "blameless"--even for things that they were unconnected with. Indeed, for the past decade, AQ has been public enemy number one.
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we condemn ourselves unconditionally
No. When our soldiers, who our tax dollars have trained, and who wear the American flag on their uniforms, and who, in those uniforms, are de facto representatives of the US, beat people to death, rape them, sic dogs on them, force them to simulate homosexual sex acts, parade them around naked in front of women, force them to masturbate in front of women, and are IDIOTIC ENOUGH TO PHOTOGRAPH AND VIDEOTAPE IT like some teenagers our videotaping a crime spree, we hold them accountable.
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until the day we lay down all guns and defenses, offer flowers to everybody, and subsequently let anyone with a "bad attitude" walk over us as they please.
Paranoia and hyperbole are no substitute for argument.
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As cited earlier, these "AQ" will do whatever to forward a cause via terror and intimidation.
Your implication here is that if AQ had its own country and military, it would still use unconventional paramilitary tactics to bring about political change. Is this the case? Seriously. Is this what you're arguing?
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It serves no one to hold themself liable for what "AQ" does.
I don't understand this sentence. Could you explain what you mean? I'm sincere about this.
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"AQ" does what "AQ" does.
As opposed to? I'm really not sure where you're headed here.
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We are far past the stage where we do or do not get what is coming to us. At some point, you just have to quit splitting hairs and realize that this group is very bad and needs to be taken out.
This is hardly a new issue, and certainly not one that anyone is going to argue with you about. AQ cannot be allowed to continue with their terrorist activities. The larger issue is how we go about accomplishing this goal.
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What we are is irrelevant, as long as we persist to maintain the standards that we came into this with.
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting that we should abandon the "standards" (by which I assume you mean moral/ethical standards) we held when we entered the war? Are you suggesting that we should feel free to torture and behead and mutilate and rape prisoners?
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This topic is about Nick Berg. The persons who snuffed Nick Berg need to be snuffed- plain and simple, no and's, if's, or but's.
OK. Sure. You're the one going around and saying that everyone who disagrees with you is a de facto member of al Qaeda.
Family knew what has happened to him, before this surfaced...
I really don't know what to say, i'm so sick of all this...
Everything about this war stinks, from whatever angle you look at it..
And this will just make it worse.
what the fvck is wrong with us ?
What is wrong with us? What is wrong with them? We freed the Iraqi people from a lunatic murderer who killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and somehow we are the problem? It is when stuff like this happens that confirms to me why we are over there in the first place. These same monsters came over here and killed almost 3,000 of our citizens almost three years ago - a long time before this war in Iraq started so don't come on this forum spouting a bunch of nonsense like this is some brand new concept we have never seen before. Do you actually think that if we never went to Afghanistan and Iraq that they would never try to kill Americans again? What the hell is your problem? Is it not clear enough for you yet?
We took care of the Nazis some 60 years ago and we need to see that people like this will never harm us again. These Islamic terrorists will try to hurt us again and there will come a day that if we don't pursue them to the death that they will try to do harm against us on a scale that will make 9/11 look insignificant. That is their goal and we need to do everything in our power to stop them. There is no negotiation that will work with these animals. They are willing to die for their warped cause and it is our job to see to it that they do but we need to do it to them before they do it to us again. This notion that we are inflaming the passions of more people against us is absolutely nonsense and nothing more than liberal anti-war propaganda. The sit around and do nothing approach has already been tried and it was a miserable failure.
Make no mistake - some of our people really screwed up at that prison. I think we have expressed the proper outrage and we will punish those responsible and that is the right thing for us to do. But we cannot get off mission here. We need to finish the job and that means eliminate the threats these groups are posing to a successful and peaceful Iraq. These people don't want to see it because they care nothing for the average Iraqi. But far too many people in the Middle East are either brainwashed or simply too stupid to see that.
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor bastard die for his country."
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it. You can just read it in the context of their posts- AQ would never do this on their own, right? They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
The fact of the matter is that these people would do so regardless. That is just what they do. (If you really want to distill this down into basics, it might as well be a case of racial hatred. Take the nearest white American dude off the street and kill him in front of his family- via television. Pick him, not because he has publically sworn to be an enemy of Iraq, but because he is white and a foreigner- a perfect lesson to teach all those other white-skinned sinners on the other side of the planet. This is a mix of racial hate crime with old school style Iraqi dictator coercion.) They happen to be exploiting the incidental timing of other events to create validation for the act. Then you have those of the general populace who can only see this as further confirmation of their own political agendas... They want us to "pull-out", which would subsequentially validate power amongst these very people who cloak themselves in an execution video. It is really difficult to imagine the average Iraqi being in a "better situation" if power is relinquished to the native "mob bosses" that live among them. The Iraqi people must either ride the rough road out with US, or they will be screwed period w/o us. If we were to pull out, yes, it would literally be the most humane outcome to nuke the joint. The "innocents" are pretty much screwed any way from tomorrow at that point. Being put to death would be salvation from living further generations in captivation by the fundamentalists amongst them that literally share the same blood.
This is a quintessential moment where a person's response indicates if they really are "with us or against us".
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement". W/o the Iraqi prison scandal, they would either have done the same exact thing (but attributed to some other precursor event) or nothing at all (due to the absense of a media opportunity). Either way, they stirred up the pot one more notch with not much to gain for the rest of us. If there are any fingers to be pointed right now, it is to that of "responsible journalism". Does anybody think for a second that Al Jazeera media sees these events "both ways"? At this point, the only difference among "our" Western journalists and Al Jazeera is that ratings drives one of them and fundamentalist politics drives the other. They both will incite/inflame/influence news events for their own gain at the drop of a hat, however.
Brilliant analysis, sir. What annoys me the most is that practically none of our good deeds in Iraq have ever made the news. A vast majority of Iraqis support us but only those who oppose get any air time. We are building schools and roads. We are getting the water and the power turned on in places that never had such things. Before the war, only major cities like Baghdad had uninterrupted and reliable electrical service. We are getting the oil flowing again so Iraq can start making money again so that the people of Iraq can all directly benefit for the very first time. When Saddam Hussein was in charge, most of the money from oil revenues went straight into his own pockets or went towards building more palaces and supporting the military that kept him in power. People are finding jobs and opening new businesses. Progress is being made but the average American has to go out of his or her way to find out about it.
We sent people over there who, for whatever reason, tortured prisoners and apparently took great pleasure in it?
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What is wrong with them?
I don't know who "them" is.
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We freed the Iraqi people from a lunatic murderer who killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and somehow we are the problem?
We invaded a sovereign nation, occupied it, and locked up thousands of people--some of whom are no terrorists. When we weren't busy locking them up, and otherwise liberating them, we were torturing, raping and murdering them. And photographing it. And videotaping it.
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It is when stuff like this happens that confirms to me why we are over there in the first place.
To torture people?
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These same monsters came over here and killed almost 3,000 of our citizens almost three years ago
I don't know who "these" refers to. All intelligence suggests that it was al Qaeda who is responsible for 9/11. I suggest we go after them. I'm all for it.
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a long time before this war in Iraq started
There has been a great deal of discussion about when, exactly, the war started.
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so don't come on this forum spouting a bunch of nonsense like this is some brand new concept we have never seen before.
to what "concept" are you referring?
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Do you actually think that if we never went to Afghanistan and Iraq that they would never try to kill Americans again?
Do you actually think that if we went into Afghanistan and Iraq that they would never try to kill Americans again? Welcome to fourth generation asymmetrical warfare.
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We took care of the Nazis some 60 years ago
And a fine job we did with that! The NAZIs and their followers have been totally eradicated from the face of the earth! They never do anything nasty, do they?
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and we need to see that people like this will never harm us again.
Indeed. Clearly, if Ireland and Israel have taught us anything, shooting at them is the best was to effect this.
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These Islamic terrorists will try to hurt us again and there will come a day that if we don't pursue them to the death that they will try to do harm against us on a scale that will make 9/11 look insignificant.
And so we need to hunt them down and kill them, right?
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That is their goal and we need to do everything in our power to stop them.
Yes! We need to shoot at them! That will get them to stop! And we need to make sure that, when 90% of the people who perpetrated 9/11 are from one country, we invade two other countries!
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There is no negotiation that will work with these animals.
You sure? You positive? You must be. Because we spent a lot of time trying it, didn't we?
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They are willing to die for their warped cause and it is our job to see to it that they do but we need to do it to them before they do it to us again.
Man. I'm glad the US justice system doesn't work this way. Otherwise I could just go and torture someone because of something they might do to me.
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This notion that we are inflaming the passions of more people against us is absolutely nonsense
This notion that invading and occupying TWO Islamic countries and occupying them won't inflame the passions of more against us is absolute nonsense.
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and nothing more than liberal anti-war propaganda.
Heh. That's a good one.
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The sit around and do nothing approach has already been tried and it was a miserable failure.
I'm not sure when, in the past 10 years, we're sat around and done nothing. Except for maybe the first 9 months of the current administration's term.
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Make no mistake - some of our people really screwed up at that prison.
Don't you dare belittle it. Some of our "people" TORTURED, RAPED, AND KILLED prisoners.
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I think we have expressed the proper outrage and we will punish those responsible and that is the right thing for us to do.
Indeed.
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But we cannot get off mission here.
It would seem that you see this in exclusively two dimensions. It is all intertwined, and you cannot divorce the US torture and murder of prisoners from the larger mission.
There's something about this incident that doesn't compute. We're so knocked about by the wretched, shocking first hand details that the strange background to the case has been ignored, or overlooked:
Why would the FBI interrogate this man for two weeks in Iraq? Then he's released by the US, and the very next day he gets picked up by "al qaeda'. (!?) Lets see the proof that the executioners are who they are alleged to be. Who set up the 'al qaeda' linked website that the video was posted to? What is the URL? Those 5 executioners could be anybody: they are masked and anonymous. Where's the proof that al Zarqawi is the executioner?
Of course we are shocked to the core by the utterly horrific content...who isn't?...but the story raises more questions than answers. So far, none of those questions have been answered to any degree of satisfaction.
Ah yes. We are the people who did this to Nick Berg. Now I have read some stupid stuff at AO but this guy is the winner of the prize. And I am sure you are one of these people who believes that 9/11 was a government plot so we could justify going to war in Afghanistan and later on in Iraq. Obviously it was nothing more than a coincidence that all these terrorists just happened to be aboard all four flights that crashed that day...
All sammi jo is saying is that we really don't have any proof that it's Al Qaeda (or anyone else for that matter), so we shouldn't be making assertions that it is definitely one specific group.
Hell, you go on so much about the murderous Iraqis, why don't you blame them instead? I mean, we can be pretty sure it was either Al Qaeda or members of the Iraqi military. So which of the two was it? Pick one. Do you know which one is correct? I sure don't.
Brilliant analysis, sir. What annoys me the most is that practically none of our good deeds in Iraq have ever made the news. A vast majority of Iraqis support us but only those who oppose get any air time. We are building schools and roads. We are getting the water and the power turned on in places that never had such things. Before the war, only major cities like Baghdad had uninterrupted and reliable electrical service. We are getting the oil flowing again so Iraq can start making money again so that the people of Iraq can all directly benefit for the very first time. When Saddam Hussein was in charge, most of the money from oil revenues went straight into his own pockets or went towards building more palaces and supporting the military that kept him in power. People are finding jobs and opening new businesses. Progress is being made but the average American has to go out of his or her way to find out about it.
Off topic, but you're not quite right on a couple of points here at least. Saddam was initially popular because he electrified almost all of Iraq, and there is still no regular supply even in Baghdad, a source of great discontent. The oil isn't 'flowing again' and the money it makes when it will is going to go towards rebuilding costs before a single Iraqi will benefit.
Ah yes. We are the people who did this to Nick Berg. Now I have read some stupid stuff at AO but this guy is the winner of the prize. And I am sure you are one of these people who believes that 9/11 was a government plot so we could justify going to war in Afghanistan and later on in Iraq. Obviously it was nothing more than a coincidence that all these terrorists just happened to be aboard all four flights that crashed that day...
I have read some unthinking, kneejerk, reactionary responses on this board before. This one takes one of the prizes. Are you completely incapable of discussing something rationally, or do you believe everything the media feeds you, unconditionally?
We have no proof that this was the work of al qaeda. Nobody knows who did this, apart from the perps and whoever organized/paid etc them. So lets be rational about it and not automatically believe that what comes up on an 'al qaeda' affiliated website (that nobody has published the URL of) is in any way an accurate representation of what happened. Are we assuming that al qaeda is now an accurate, honest news source, just because it is convenient to do so?
Well, then why do I read editorials written by liberals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation and thereby laying this mess entirely at the President's feet? The President has clearly and very sincerely expressed his disgust and outrage at what happened. Oh, I guess it is okay for a liberal to assign blame but it is wrong that Al Qaeda be blamed for this act even though it fits their MO like a tailor made suit? There has been no evidence of any cover-up in this prison abuse scandal. If anything I see actions that indicate that our response to these atrocities has been entirely appropriate. Public apologies have been expressed and investigations are being conducted and have been for quite some time. We will discipline our own. I cannot say the same for Al Qaeda. There will be no investigations - only promises of a better after-life to those who perpetrated this horrible crime.
Comments
Originally posted by Luca
As far as the torture of Iraqi captives by American soldiers... well, that is also completely wrong and shouldn't have been done. Of course it's not nearly as bad as what was done to Nick Berg, but that shouldn't serve as a rationalization for it. Those sorts of things are wrong to do to ANY person, and if we allow ourselves to justify it in this situation, then we're not much better than those we're fighting against. Again, I want to make it clear that the unethical treatment of Iraqi prisoners is obviously not as bad as this grotesque execution, but that cannot serve as justification.
Obviously.
I think you forget that we killed this guy-- and other undocumented prisoners who never received numbers. Right now, the Army is investigating 25 suspicious deaths at Abu Ghraib. Again, the scale of abuses at that camp is much worse than you and other Americans may realize. Conversely, it's something that many vengeful, militant Arabs clearly understand. I would read the indispensable Seymour Hersh's latest piece, "Chain of Command" for a good background.
They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
...and that is flawed reasoning. Yes, I do believe that Al Qaeda is more than just a group of evil monsters who take perverse pleasure in brutally murdering people. People always do things for a reason, even a bad one. Maybe the reason they attack Americans isn't even the fault of the US. Maybe it only has a little bit to do with the US. But someone doesn't just get up in the morning and say, "Hey, I think it would be fun to go out and dismember a few people today." Somehow they think they are accomplishing something by doing this.
So perhaps they are reacting in some way to the US. That doesn't mean the US is more evil than AQ. On the contrary, in many cases the retaliation used by one group is far worse than the initial action that caused it. Think about it this way... a stranger accidentally bumps into some guy on the street. A hot-headed person might clock the stranger and knock him out. In that case, the initial action was careless but not that bad, versus the quite drastic action taken by the hot-headed person. So if the US is the stranger, Al Qaeda is the easily angered guy. No, there's no excuse to retaliate to that degree, but he didn't just walk out onto the street and punch some random person. He waited for some kind of excuse to do it.
EDIT Re: ShawnJ:
It is worse than I had originally thought. I've been so busy the past week with school stuff that I haven't kept up on the news. I skimmed over the Iraqi Prisoner thread but I mostly saw pictures of US soldiers humiliating and torturing Iraqi prisoners, not killing them. This is pretty awful.
Originally posted by Randycat99
...Based on expressed views. One should not take "here" as a rigid term, either. Could be here at this website, here on the Internet, here in the US, here etc...
The question isn't so much "who", rather "do they realize which side their stance ultimately gives credence to."
Jesus Christ. That's the most disgusting argument I've ever seen on this board.
Originally posted by Randycat99
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it. You can just read it in the context of their posts- AQ would never do this on their own, right? They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
...
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Do you realize that you said other people - "AQ supporters" - are blaming the Iraq prison scandal for this, and then by the end of your post, you're blaming the release of the pictures of the Iraq prison scandal for this?
Are you an AQ supporter or something?
Originally posted by BRussell
Do you realize that you said other people - "AQ supporters" - are blaming the Iraq prison scandal for this, and then by the end of your post, you're blaming the release of the pictures of the Iraq prison scandal for this?
Are you an AQ supporter or something?
Let's cut the last statement.
I am serious.
As for
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Correction it is not the media but rather those who wear the uniform who gave "AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Fellowship
Originally posted by Fellowship
Let's cut the last statement.
I am serious.
As for
Correction it is not the media but rather those who wear the uniform who gave "AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement".
Fellowship
In BRussell's defense, he facetiously pointed out the absurdity of Randycat's argument-- whereas Randycat himself is actually serious. But yeah-- best to stop all discussion of someone's trolling post. <-- Sorry Alc, I couldn't help myself!
Your notion of a US govt conspiracy is interesting, but not enough to "stop the presses" in my head. I would not be disagreeable with an investigation on that, if that is what you are calling for.
Originally posted by bunge
The video isn't that bad. If you can't stomach it then I don't think you're experienced or mature enough to participate in political discussions here in AO.
I don't think in any way shape or form that it has to do with being mature enough to have political discussions. That is some very weird macho BS.
What is most disgusting to me is that I was not really effected by the video. I have become so desensitized that watching someone lose their life hardly affects me.(?!?!) it is unfortunate, but I have seen so many videos or pictures like this on the internet over the years. I am more moved when I think about his family and the families of all those that we have not heard aobut who have given their lives.
It is only a matter of time until we start seeing the photos of all of the innocent Iraqi civilians that have been killed as a result of the "war in Iraq". Then the sh*t is really going to hit the political fan.
Originally posted by Randycat99
It's the difference between simply remarking that this act is reprehensible under any context vs. saying that plus always balanced with some remark that "we don't belong there" (political), "what do you expect" (flippant and facetious so as to push home the political), "we are just as much the monster as they are" (self-loathing so as to serve the political), etc.
It's the difference between saying "I disagree with you" and saying "You support the enemy" plus "You clearly hate America."
Essentially,
No.
this resolves down to emphasizing that we deserved this to happen.
No. Berg's death is a great tragedy. No one deserves to die in such a horrible manner. Berg most certainly did not ask for this to happen to him. Berg did willingly enter a war-zone, however, and it's more than a bit disingenuous to argue as if he were unaware of this fact.
AQ are held blameless,
I don't know what bizarro world you live in, but I don't know ANYONE who thinks that AQ is "blameless"--even for things that they were unconnected with. Indeed, for the past decade, AQ has been public enemy number one.
we condemn ourselves unconditionally
No. When our soldiers, who our tax dollars have trained, and who wear the American flag on their uniforms, and who, in those uniforms, are de facto representatives of the US, beat people to death, rape them, sic dogs on them, force them to simulate homosexual sex acts, parade them around naked in front of women, force them to masturbate in front of women, and are IDIOTIC ENOUGH TO PHOTOGRAPH AND VIDEOTAPE IT like some teenagers our videotaping a crime spree, we hold them accountable.
until the day we lay down all guns and defenses, offer flowers to everybody, and subsequently let anyone with a "bad attitude" walk over us as they please.
Paranoia and hyperbole are no substitute for argument.
As cited earlier, these "AQ" will do whatever to forward a cause via terror and intimidation.
Your implication here is that if AQ had its own country and military, it would still use unconventional paramilitary tactics to bring about political change. Is this the case? Seriously. Is this what you're arguing?
It serves no one to hold themself liable for what "AQ" does.
I don't understand this sentence. Could you explain what you mean? I'm sincere about this.
"AQ" does what "AQ" does.
As opposed to? I'm really not sure where you're headed here.
We are far past the stage where we do or do not get what is coming to us. At some point, you just have to quit splitting hairs and realize that this group is very bad and needs to be taken out.
This is hardly a new issue, and certainly not one that anyone is going to argue with you about. AQ cannot be allowed to continue with their terrorist activities. The larger issue is how we go about accomplishing this goal.
What we are is irrelevant, as long as we persist to maintain the standards that we came into this with.
I don't understand this. Are you suggesting that we should abandon the "standards" (by which I assume you mean moral/ethical standards) we held when we entered the war? Are you suggesting that we should feel free to torture and behead and mutilate and rape prisoners?
This topic is about Nick Berg. The persons who snuffed Nick Berg need to be snuffed- plain and simple, no and's, if's, or but's.
OK. Sure. You're the one going around and saying that everyone who disagrees with you is a de facto member of al Qaeda.
Originally posted by piwozniak
Family knew what has happened to him, before this surfaced...
I really don't know what to say, i'm so sick of all this...
Everything about this war stinks, from whatever angle you look at it..
And this will just make it worse.
what the fvck is wrong with us ?
What is wrong with us? What is wrong with them? We freed the Iraqi people from a lunatic murderer who killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and somehow we are the problem? It is when stuff like this happens that confirms to me why we are over there in the first place. These same monsters came over here and killed almost 3,000 of our citizens almost three years ago - a long time before this war in Iraq started so don't come on this forum spouting a bunch of nonsense like this is some brand new concept we have never seen before. Do you actually think that if we never went to Afghanistan and Iraq that they would never try to kill Americans again? What the hell is your problem? Is it not clear enough for you yet?
We took care of the Nazis some 60 years ago and we need to see that people like this will never harm us again. These Islamic terrorists will try to hurt us again and there will come a day that if we don't pursue them to the death that they will try to do harm against us on a scale that will make 9/11 look insignificant. That is their goal and we need to do everything in our power to stop them. There is no negotiation that will work with these animals. They are willing to die for their warped cause and it is our job to see to it that they do but we need to do it to them before they do it to us again. This notion that we are inflaming the passions of more people against us is absolutely nonsense and nothing more than liberal anti-war propaganda. The sit around and do nothing approach has already been tried and it was a miserable failure.
Make no mistake - some of our people really screwed up at that prison. I think we have expressed the proper outrage and we will punish those responsible and that is the right thing for us to do. But we cannot get off mission here. We need to finish the job and that means eliminate the threats these groups are posing to a successful and peaceful Iraq. These people don't want to see it because they care nothing for the average Iraqi. But far too many people in the Middle East are either brainwashed or simply too stupid to see that.
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor bastard die for his country."
General George S. Patton
Originally posted by Randycat99
It seems pretty evident to me that there are AQ supporters among us- they are just in the closet about it. You can just read it in the context of their posts- AQ would never do this on their own, right? They must be reacting to something that was done to them first, right? Whoever that must be must be even more evil, of course...hmmm...
The fact of the matter is that these people would do so regardless. That is just what they do. (If you really want to distill this down into basics, it might as well be a case of racial hatred. Take the nearest white American dude off the street and kill him in front of his family- via television. Pick him, not because he has publically sworn to be an enemy of Iraq, but because he is white and a foreigner- a perfect lesson to teach all those other white-skinned sinners on the other side of the planet. This is a mix of racial hate crime with old school style Iraqi dictator coercion.) They happen to be exploiting the incidental timing of other events to create validation for the act. Then you have those of the general populace who can only see this as further confirmation of their own political agendas... They want us to "pull-out", which would subsequentially validate power amongst these very people who cloak themselves in an execution video. It is really difficult to imagine the average Iraqi being in a "better situation" if power is relinquished to the native "mob bosses" that live among them. The Iraqi people must either ride the rough road out with US, or they will be screwed period w/o us. If we were to pull out, yes, it would literally be the most humane outcome to nuke the joint. The "innocents" are pretty much screwed any way from tomorrow at that point. Being put to death would be salvation from living further generations in captivation by the fundamentalists amongst them that literally share the same blood.
This is a quintessential moment where a person's response indicates if they really are "with us or against us".
Also, hat's off to all of those in the media and Internet who thought it was a good idea to parade pictures of the "atrocities" in the Iraqi prison. [/sarcasm] This pretty much gave AQ (or whoever they wish to claim themselves as) full opportunity to make a graphic "counterstatement". W/o the Iraqi prison scandal, they would either have done the same exact thing (but attributed to some other precursor event) or nothing at all (due to the absense of a media opportunity). Either way, they stirred up the pot one more notch with not much to gain for the rest of us. If there are any fingers to be pointed right now, it is to that of "responsible journalism". Does anybody think for a second that Al Jazeera media sees these events "both ways"? At this point, the only difference among "our" Western journalists and Al Jazeera is that ratings drives one of them and fundamentalist politics drives the other. They both will incite/inflame/influence news events for their own gain at the drop of a hat, however.
Brilliant analysis, sir. What annoys me the most is that practically none of our good deeds in Iraq have ever made the news. A vast majority of Iraqis support us but only those who oppose get any air time. We are building schools and roads. We are getting the water and the power turned on in places that never had such things. Before the war, only major cities like Baghdad had uninterrupted and reliable electrical service. We are getting the oil flowing again so Iraq can start making money again so that the people of Iraq can all directly benefit for the very first time. When Saddam Hussein was in charge, most of the money from oil revenues went straight into his own pockets or went towards building more palaces and supporting the military that kept him in power. People are finding jobs and opening new businesses. Progress is being made but the average American has to go out of his or her way to find out about it.
Originally posted by 7E7
What is wrong with us?
We sent people over there who, for whatever reason, tortured prisoners and apparently took great pleasure in it?
What is wrong with them?
I don't know who "them" is.
We freed the Iraqi people from a lunatic murderer who killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people and somehow we are the problem?
We invaded a sovereign nation, occupied it, and locked up thousands of people--some of whom are no terrorists. When we weren't busy locking them up, and otherwise liberating them, we were torturing, raping and murdering them. And photographing it. And videotaping it.
It is when stuff like this happens that confirms to me why we are over there in the first place.
To torture people?
These same monsters came over here and killed almost 3,000 of our citizens almost three years ago
I don't know who "these" refers to. All intelligence suggests that it was al Qaeda who is responsible for 9/11. I suggest we go after them. I'm all for it.
a long time before this war in Iraq started
There has been a great deal of discussion about when, exactly, the war started.
so don't come on this forum spouting a bunch of nonsense like this is some brand new concept we have never seen before.
to what "concept" are you referring?
Do you actually think that if we never went to Afghanistan and Iraq that they would never try to kill Americans again?
Do you actually think that if we went into Afghanistan and Iraq that they would never try to kill Americans again? Welcome to fourth generation asymmetrical warfare.
We took care of the Nazis some 60 years ago
And a fine job we did with that! The NAZIs and their followers have been totally eradicated from the face of the earth! They never do anything nasty, do they?
and we need to see that people like this will never harm us again.
Indeed. Clearly, if Ireland and Israel have taught us anything, shooting at them is the best was to effect this.
These Islamic terrorists will try to hurt us again and there will come a day that if we don't pursue them to the death that they will try to do harm against us on a scale that will make 9/11 look insignificant.
And so we need to hunt them down and kill them, right?
That is their goal and we need to do everything in our power to stop them.
Yes! We need to shoot at them! That will get them to stop! And we need to make sure that, when 90% of the people who perpetrated 9/11 are from one country, we invade two other countries!
There is no negotiation that will work with these animals.
You sure? You positive? You must be. Because we spent a lot of time trying it, didn't we?
They are willing to die for their warped cause and it is our job to see to it that they do but we need to do it to them before they do it to us again.
Man. I'm glad the US justice system doesn't work this way. Otherwise I could just go and torture someone because of something they might do to me.
This notion that we are inflaming the passions of more people against us is absolutely nonsense
This notion that invading and occupying TWO Islamic countries and occupying them won't inflame the passions of more against us is absolute nonsense.
and nothing more than liberal anti-war propaganda.
Heh. That's a good one.
The sit around and do nothing approach has already been tried and it was a miserable failure.
I'm not sure when, in the past 10 years, we're sat around and done nothing. Except for maybe the first 9 months of the current administration's term.
Make no mistake - some of our people really screwed up at that prison.
Don't you dare belittle it. Some of our "people" TORTURED, RAPED, AND KILLED prisoners.
I think we have expressed the proper outrage and we will punish those responsible and that is the right thing for us to do.
Indeed.
But we cannot get off mission here.
It would seem that you see this in exclusively two dimensions. It is all intertwined, and you cannot divorce the US torture and murder of prisoners from the larger mission.
Originally posted by sammi jo
There's something about this incident that doesn't compute. We're so knocked about by the wretched, shocking first hand details that the strange background to the case has been ignored, or overlooked:
Why would the FBI interrogate this man for two weeks in Iraq? Then he's released by the US, and the very next day he gets picked up by "al qaeda'. (!?) Lets see the proof that the executioners are who they are alleged to be. Who set up the 'al qaeda' linked website that the video was posted to? What is the URL? Those 5 executioners could be anybody: they are masked and anonymous. Where's the proof that al Zarqawi is the executioner?
Of course we are shocked to the core by the utterly horrific content...who isn't?...but the story raises more questions than answers. So far, none of those questions have been answered to any degree of satisfaction.
Ah yes. We are the people who did this to Nick Berg. Now I have read some stupid stuff at AO but this guy is the winner of the prize. And I am sure you are one of these people who believes that 9/11 was a government plot so we could justify going to war in Afghanistan and later on in Iraq. Obviously it was nothing more than a coincidence that all these terrorists just happened to be aboard all four flights that crashed that day...
Hell, you go on so much about the murderous Iraqis, why don't you blame them instead? I mean, we can be pretty sure it was either Al Qaeda or members of the Iraqi military. So which of the two was it? Pick one. Do you know which one is correct? I sure don't.
By the way, sammi jo isn't a guy.
Originally posted by 7E7
Brilliant analysis, sir. What annoys me the most is that practically none of our good deeds in Iraq have ever made the news. A vast majority of Iraqis support us but only those who oppose get any air time. We are building schools and roads. We are getting the water and the power turned on in places that never had such things. Before the war, only major cities like Baghdad had uninterrupted and reliable electrical service. We are getting the oil flowing again so Iraq can start making money again so that the people of Iraq can all directly benefit for the very first time. When Saddam Hussein was in charge, most of the money from oil revenues went straight into his own pockets or went towards building more palaces and supporting the military that kept him in power. People are finding jobs and opening new businesses. Progress is being made but the average American has to go out of his or her way to find out about it.
Off topic, but you're not quite right on a couple of points here at least. Saddam was initially popular because he electrified almost all of Iraq, and there is still no regular supply even in Baghdad, a source of great discontent. The oil isn't 'flowing again' and the money it makes when it will is going to go towards rebuilding costs before a single Iraqi will benefit.
Originally posted by 7E7
Ah yes. We are the people who did this to Nick Berg. Now I have read some stupid stuff at AO but this guy is the winner of the prize. And I am sure you are one of these people who believes that 9/11 was a government plot so we could justify going to war in Afghanistan and later on in Iraq. Obviously it was nothing more than a coincidence that all these terrorists just happened to be aboard all four flights that crashed that day...
I have read some unthinking, kneejerk, reactionary responses on this board before. This one takes one of the prizes. Are you completely incapable of discussing something rationally, or do you believe everything the media feeds you, unconditionally?
Originally posted by sammi jo
We have no proof that this was the work of al qaeda. Nobody knows who did this, apart from the perps and whoever organized/paid etc them. So lets be rational about it and not automatically believe that what comes up on an 'al qaeda' affiliated website (that nobody has published the URL of) is in any way an accurate representation of what happened. Are we assuming that al qaeda is now an accurate, honest news source, just because it is convenient to do so?
Well, then why do I read editorials written by liberals calling for Rumsfeld's resignation and thereby laying this mess entirely at the President's feet? The President has clearly and very sincerely expressed his disgust and outrage at what happened. Oh, I guess it is okay for a liberal to assign blame but it is wrong that Al Qaeda be blamed for this act even though it fits their MO like a tailor made suit? There has been no evidence of any cover-up in this prison abuse scandal. If anything I see actions that indicate that our response to these atrocities has been entirely appropriate. Public apologies have been expressed and investigations are being conducted and have been for quite some time. We will discipline our own. I cannot say the same for Al Qaeda. There will be no investigations - only promises of a better after-life to those who perpetrated this horrible crime.