the entry level you've quoted at $499 + equivalent 17" LCD for another $350 + anti spyware $30 + anti-virus $49 (that is always outdated), and i can go on forever with the list, but that's not the point.........
it doesn't matter how you put it, any entry level PC with similar quality and capacity of computing will cost about $1000. This is still cheaper, but I woudn't change such a pc system with an iMac for extra $300, would you? I would however be willing to pay $300 to get an iMac if someone offered a such deal with my entry level pc.
You have to realized that it's not just a computing box..... It's and iMac!......
Just as much desire to have iPod over any of dell mp3 players...... Why?...
Because you can't place a price over the user experience and quality.
The point is not to configure a 'general equivalent' of the iMac, but a reasonable *gaming* machine. You can get that, including a decent GPU, for less than Mac Voyeur's Dell configuration. I refer to Anandtech's entry level gaming PC:
If this is what a computer costs by building from retail priced components and paying separate postages, I have no doubt some manufacturer is able to do it for a hundred bucks more, considering how much they can save in wholesale buying and shipping of the components.
You can get antivirus (and probably anti-spyware) for free btw. If you practice reasonable administration and do not dabble in warez, you might not need them. It's not like spyware and viruses come from nowhere.. and you can block worms with a firewall.
The quoted dell box isn't an entry level and this system would still have hard time playing doom3 unless you spend another $250 to $500 on a graphic card.
the entry level you've quoted at $499 + equivalent 17" LCD for another $350 + anti spyware $30 + anti-virus $49 (that is always outdated), and i can go on forever with the list, but that's not the point.........
it doesn't matter how you put it, any entry level PC with similar quality and capacity of computing will cost about $1000. This is still cheaper, but I woudn't change such a pc system with an iMac for extra $300, would you? I would however be willing to pay $300 to get an iMac if someone offered a such deal with my entry level pc.
It always surprises me that people forget you need to pay shipping with Dell too. Apple normally includes it unless you want express shipping.
It always surprises me that people forget you need to pay shipping with Dell too. Apple normally includes it unless you want express shipping.
I think people are really splitting hairs now.
I know for a fact you can build a pretty high end gaming PC for the price of an iMac. I know as I did it.
This was over a year ago now, - Shuttle XPC, 3ghz P4, 1gb RAM, DVD-RW, Radeon 9800 Pro 256mb.
It struggles on Doom 3 somewhat (gives you an idea how an iMac would run it!), but it's fine for everything else. Total cost was around the $1800 mark. And things are cheaper now of course.
The quoted dell box isn't an entry level and this system would still have hard time playing doom3 unless you spend another $250 to $500 on a graphic card.
the entry level you've quoted at $499 + equivalent 17" LCD for another $350 + anti spyware $30 + anti-virus $49 (that is always outdated), and i can go on forever with the list, but that's not the point.........
$500 is a bit much for a doom 3 card. I paid $350 for my 6800GT. That's only $250 more than an entry level card.
However, a really awesome graphics card (the 6600) can be obtained for $200 ($100 more than entry level).
Also, norton internet security costs $50 and it has "anti spyware" and a year anti-virus.
Plus it has a zone alarm. That combined with an ounce of common sense, and you never have to get a virus on a PC.
Also, there's always LavaSoftUSA's free Adaware software for spyware which works absolutely perfectly.
Moreover, it's just as easy to put spyware on a mac as on a PC, it's just not as common. MS Office X has spyware, as do many shareware apps.
I've had a PC for 5 years now, and I've never had a virus. Plus I didn't have a zone alarm or hardware firewall for at least a year... but those were different times.
PCs are way cheaper than macs. People compare Apple to Dell because they're mail order or something, but the vast majority of PCs are white-box specials which cost 25-30% less and are sold out of local computer shops. Or one can build one's own PC out of http://www.pricewatch.com or http://www.newegg.com (my personal favorite) for 50% less than MSRP on parts.
I know for a fact you can build a pretty high end gaming PC for the price of an iMac. I know as I did it.
Well for a start the delivery is an additional $100 so it isn't insignificant. If you're going to use Dell, who has no direct resellers, as your basis you need to include it.
Second there's a world of difference between building a machine and buying it from a major manufacturer.
Well for a start the delivery is an additional $100 so it isn't insignificant. If you're going to use Dell, who has no direct resellers, as your basis you need to include it.
Second there's a world of difference between building a machine and buying it from a major manufacturer.
I don't mean to be argumentative but the idea that you can't get a PC gaming capable rig in the iMac price range is absurd. That is the only point I was making when I trotted out the Dell specs. When you factor in the processor and the fact that games are designed to run well on DirectX PCs, there is no comparison. If I had customized, I could have probably done better. But it does not matter for this point. Add a good graphics card to almost any $1000 PC box and you've got a decent gaming rig. with a 17" FP. Again, the idea that PCs can't game in the iMac price range is just nuts.
By the way, your sig cracks me up everytime. I never get tired of it.
Oh don't get me wrong I'm not disagreeing with you. You can some very good gaming PCs for around the $1500 - $2000 mark and Apple offers nothing there. If they just made the GPU upgradeable in the iMacs they could be good gaming machines as well and at reasonable prices in that range. Apple's never going to do it but they are missing a market there.
Can't even remember where I found it now but yeah I love it
please forgive me if I am misguided, but shouldn't improvements in Tiger give all macs better than expected performance in regards to graphic cards, as opposed to what you can currently get in either mac or windows.
please forgive me if I am misguided, but shouldn't improvements in Tiger give all macs better than expected performance in regards to graphic cards, as opposed to what you can currently get in either mac or windows.
No matter how well you cook it, no matter how skilled the cheff, a pile of bat guano is always going to be just that. Apple can't software cheap hardware into good hardware. At some point, Apple has to give up on alchemy and start presenting better hardware. At some point it has got to be more expensive to sell grossly out of date and hard to acquire hardware than it is to just provide the current industry standard.
please forgive me if I am misguided, but shouldn't improvements in Tiger give all macs better than expected performance in regards to graphic cards, as opposed to what you can currently get in either mac or windows.
Windows? Oh no. They have DirectX, which is way more optimized. Some say the picture quality is worse then OpenGL though...
I kinda thought that DX & OpenGL were two sides of the same coin (graphics wise)?
DX is mainly for games, OpenGL is mainly for EVERYTHING.
DX is updated more often, and much of the libraries are stored on the computer, OGL is usually referencing stuff compiled into the game for maximum compatibility with itself.
The fact that DX is changed so much means that updating so one game will work will disable another game.
That's why PC gamers are extra happy lately, because microsoft isn't "upgrading" (disabling) DX every few months.
If I am wrong about this am sure there is no shortage of people to tell me so, but won't core image offer some level of improvements is this area. Some improvement one would not see on the windows side for some time.
If I am wrong about this am sure there is no shortage of people to tell me so, but won't core image offer some level of improvements is this area. Some improvement one would not see on the windows side for some time.
if your talking games and 3d apps etc... no fancy software tricks can really substitute the raw power of a graphics card on this level.
Comments
Originally posted by bitemymac
the entry level you've quoted at $499 + equivalent 17" LCD for another $350 + anti spyware $30 + anti-virus $49 (that is always outdated), and i can go on forever with the list, but that's not the point.........
it doesn't matter how you put it, any entry level PC with similar quality and capacity of computing will cost about $1000. This is still cheaper, but I woudn't change such a pc system with an iMac for extra $300, would you? I would however be willing to pay $300 to get an iMac if someone offered a such deal with my entry level pc.
You have to realized that it's not just a computing box..... It's and iMac!......
Just as much desire to have iPod over any of dell mp3 players...... Why?...
Because you can't place a price over the user experience and quality.
The point is not to configure a 'general equivalent' of the iMac, but a reasonable *gaming* machine. You can get that, including a decent GPU, for less than Mac Voyeur's Dell configuration. I refer to Anandtech's entry level gaming PC:
http://www.anandtech.com/guides/show...px?i=2231&p=12
If this is what a computer costs by building from retail priced components and paying separate postages, I have no doubt some manufacturer is able to do it for a hundred bucks more, considering how much they can save in wholesale buying and shipping of the components.
You can get antivirus (and probably anti-spyware) for free btw. If you practice reasonable administration and do not dabble in warez, you might not need them. It's not like spyware and viruses come from nowhere.. and you can block worms with a firewall.
Originally posted by Stoo
How many of those were in the Performa 630/6200 bundle?
0.001% ?
Originally posted by bitemymac
The quoted dell box isn't an entry level and this system would still have hard time playing doom3 unless you spend another $250 to $500 on a graphic card.
the entry level you've quoted at $499 + equivalent 17" LCD for another $350 + anti spyware $30 + anti-virus $49 (that is always outdated), and i can go on forever with the list, but that's not the point.........
it doesn't matter how you put it, any entry level PC with similar quality and capacity of computing will cost about $1000. This is still cheaper, but I woudn't change such a pc system with an iMac for extra $300, would you? I would however be willing to pay $300 to get an iMac if someone offered a such deal with my entry level pc.
It always surprises me that people forget you need to pay shipping with Dell too. Apple normally includes it unless you want express shipping.
Originally posted by Telomar
It always surprises me that people forget you need to pay shipping with Dell too. Apple normally includes it unless you want express shipping.
I think people are really splitting hairs now.
I know for a fact you can build a pretty high end gaming PC for the price of an iMac. I know as I did it.
This was over a year ago now, - Shuttle XPC, 3ghz P4, 1gb RAM, DVD-RW, Radeon 9800 Pro 256mb.
It struggles on Doom 3 somewhat (gives you an idea how an iMac would run it!), but it's fine for everything else. Total cost was around the $1800 mark. And things are cheaper now of course.
Originally posted by bitemymac
The quoted dell box isn't an entry level and this system would still have hard time playing doom3 unless you spend another $250 to $500 on a graphic card.
the entry level you've quoted at $499 + equivalent 17" LCD for another $350 + anti spyware $30 + anti-virus $49 (that is always outdated), and i can go on forever with the list, but that's not the point.........
$500 is a bit much for a doom 3 card. I paid $350 for my 6800GT. That's only $250 more than an entry level card.
However, a really awesome graphics card (the 6600) can be obtained for $200 ($100 more than entry level).
Also, norton internet security costs $50 and it has "anti spyware" and a year anti-virus.
Plus it has a zone alarm. That combined with an ounce of common sense, and you never have to get a virus on a PC.
Also, there's always LavaSoftUSA's free Adaware software for spyware which works absolutely perfectly.
Moreover, it's just as easy to put spyware on a mac as on a PC, it's just not as common. MS Office X has spyware, as do many shareware apps.
I've had a PC for 5 years now, and I've never had a virus. Plus I didn't have a zone alarm or hardware firewall for at least a year... but those were different times.
PCs are way cheaper than macs. People compare Apple to Dell because they're mail order or something, but the vast majority of PCs are white-box specials which cost 25-30% less and are sold out of local computer shops. Or one can build one's own PC out of http://www.pricewatch.com or http://www.newegg.com (my personal favorite) for 50% less than MSRP on parts.
Originally posted by Stoo
How many of those were in the Performa 630/6200 bundle?
I had a performa 630cd and it didn't come with myst.
Originally posted by kotatsu
I think people are really splitting hairs now.
I know for a fact you can build a pretty high end gaming PC for the price of an iMac. I know as I did it.
Well for a start the delivery is an additional $100 so it isn't insignificant. If you're going to use Dell, who has no direct resellers, as your basis you need to include it.
Second there's a world of difference between building a machine and buying it from a major manufacturer.
Dells 1999 XPS machine can be built for about 1200... Really shows the markup.
Originally posted by Telomar
Well for a start the delivery is an additional $100 so it isn't insignificant. If you're going to use Dell, who has no direct resellers, as your basis you need to include it.
Second there's a world of difference between building a machine and buying it from a major manufacturer.
I don't mean to be argumentative but the idea that you can't get a PC gaming capable rig in the iMac price range is absurd. That is the only point I was making when I trotted out the Dell specs. When you factor in the processor and the fact that games are designed to run well on DirectX PCs, there is no comparison. If I had customized, I could have probably done better. But it does not matter for this point. Add a good graphics card to almost any $1000 PC box and you've got a decent gaming rig. with a 17" FP. Again, the idea that PCs can't game in the iMac price range is just nuts.
By the way, your sig cracks me up everytime. I never get tired of it.
Can't even remember where I found it now but yeah I love it
Originally posted by timmy o'tool
please forgive me if I am misguided, but shouldn't improvements in Tiger give all macs better than expected performance in regards to graphic cards, as opposed to what you can currently get in either mac or windows.
No matter how well you cook it, no matter how skilled the cheff, a pile of bat guano is always going to be just that. Apple can't software cheap hardware into good hardware. At some point, Apple has to give up on alchemy and start presenting better hardware. At some point it has got to be more expensive to sell grossly out of date and hard to acquire hardware than it is to just provide the current industry standard.
Originally posted by timmy o'tool
please forgive me if I am misguided, but shouldn't improvements in Tiger give all macs better than expected performance in regards to graphic cards, as opposed to what you can currently get in either mac or windows.
Windows? Oh no. They have DirectX, which is way more optimized. Some say the picture quality is worse then OpenGL though...
Originally posted by T'hain Esh Kelch
Windows? Oh no. They have DirectX, which is way more optimized. Some say the picture quality is worse then OpenGL though...
All DX does is feed textures and geometry to the GPU. Rendering quality will be absolutely identical to Open GL.
Originally posted by kotatsu
All DX does is feed textures and geometry to the GPU. Rendering quality will be absolutely identical to Open GL.
I kinda thought that DX & OpenGL were two sides of the same coin (graphics wise)?
If you code something using DX, it has nothing to do with openGL, and visa versa.
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
I kinda thought that DX & OpenGL were two sides of the same coin (graphics wise)?
There just different ways of doing basically the same thing. With openGL being much superior in my mind, mostly because of it's excellent scalability.
Originally posted by PBG4 Dude
I kinda thought that DX & OpenGL were two sides of the same coin (graphics wise)?
DX is mainly for games, OpenGL is mainly for EVERYTHING.
DX is updated more often, and much of the libraries are stored on the computer, OGL is usually referencing stuff compiled into the game for maximum compatibility with itself.
The fact that DX is changed so much means that updating so one game will work will disable another game.
That's why PC gamers are extra happy lately, because microsoft isn't "upgrading" (disabling) DX every few months.
Originally posted by timmy o'tool
If I am wrong about this am sure there is no shortage of people to tell me so, but won't core image offer some level of improvements is this area. Some improvement one would not see on the windows side for some time.
if your talking games and 3d apps etc... no fancy software tricks can really substitute the raw power of a graphics card on this level.