Adobe probably already has beta 64-bit ready applications, and chances are we'll see them within a year, or so pending intel of course.
Maya just got a full OSX native re-write which is helping their OSX development greatly, and Alias is fully aware of AMD, Intel, and IBM's push on 64-bit. I think it's mostly a matter of all developers waiting on intel, and Microsoft before they decide it's a truely needed push.
People need to realize not all ... most... applications can hardly benefit from 64bit at this point. Yes maya, PS, Lightwave, cinema, etc etc can benefit a great deal. But your average run of the mill developer who programs applications such as BBEdit, OmniGraffle, etc don't have a great need for 64bit yet. Your main applications that can benefit from 64bit are million+ lines of code. This takes time to port. In some cases its as simple as a recompile for some simple applications... however this isn't the case for these major programs.
It will happen with time. Develops are more than willing to port applications to 64bit if it means money will be made from it. If it won't increase revenue on the application then there isn't a point to upgrade it.
As stated, it will happen eventually, just like the transition from 16bit -> 32bit.
the idea of a 'promac' seems pointless - as their powermac line IS the promac - it's just that Apple aint keeping up with the times in terms of features and cost.
pc's are as cheap as ever, and powermacs are expensive as ever at the moment.
all they gotta do is drop the prices, add more ram/GPU/hd size as standard and WAM BAM we'll be happy till the 'big' revision comes. come'on apple!
Of course I buy with developer discounts, so a 2999 powermac usually ends up around 2300.
Even if they didn't drop the prices, they could at least add more ram, better GPU, harddrive.... ram and harddrive they aren't that reliant on other companies... so that is 100% feasible. As far as GPU they ARE reliant on ATI and NVidia to get their acts together. If NVidia would release a 6600gt for the mac everything would be perfect.
Stick the 6600gt in the bottom line, the ATI 9800xt in the middle line, and 6800gt in the top line. That leaves the x800xt and 6800ultra as BTO options. And if you want you can even put the 9600xt and the 5200ultra in there for BTO options to further drop the price if needed.
Apple has completely lost sight of the BTO principle. It's now a gimic to get you to buy other apple stuff instead of truly customizing the machine. It does add more money to have customizeable machines... that's understandable... but it would make a lot more users happy. How hard is it to pull out a graphics card and put another in... take me about a minute. And if I was doing that for a living it would be done in 30 seconds each. How hard can that be? I mean the case is already open for ram, might as well do graphics cards too.
the idea of a 'promac' seems pointless - as their powermac line IS the promac - it's just that Apple aint keeping up with the times in terms of features and cost.
pc's are as cheap as ever, and powermacs are expensive as ever at the moment.
all they gotta do is drop the prices, add more ram/GPU/hd size as standard and WAM BAM we'll be happy till the 'big' revision comes. come'on apple!
I thought I made a good case for a ProMac in saying (not an actual quote) that "more added features are things that the majority of PowerMac users don't need. Adding cost to their computers would be unnecessary." Things like that are important to people, and Apple is starting to address that as you can see with the Mac Mini.
It could also bring down costs to the PowerMac line in future revisions. People are constantly saying there is no need for this, and that right now because it's unnecessary, but it's usually only unnecessary to them. If there were a ProMac, PowerMac users wouldn't have to relinquish a PCI-X slot for the second PCI-E slot. They would not have an optional Hot Swap Drive Carriage. (similar to the alienware workstation) Things like that cost, and in the case of the missing PCI-X slot - musicians use those, but they really have no need for a second PCI-E slot. So adding a second motherboard to the mix isn't as bad to some as it may seem to you. I suppose it doesn't have to have a new name, but that could go either way. It depends on how much of a chunk of the Pro Market Apple would want it to address on it's arrival, and how big, and broad a statement they could make with it. The Introduction alone could cause a stir.
On the reverse, adding a second MB, and keeping the PowerMac name with little hoopla would cause its own stir after Apple mentioned it's feature list. People would talk, and murmurs of available features would spread in pro markets just the same then too, but it would be of their own curiosity if they came to apple.com to take a peek for them self's.
aah gotcha. good points - guess this idea just proves how much the powermacs aren't satisfying us pro users... for now *fingers crossed*
tho most production studios I've been at use apple hardware, so any pro-powermac config will sure to make the rounds via word-of-mouth (rather then re-branding).
The G5 will still be higher quality because most of the accessories are *integrated*--a good example being the water cooling and the fans [which will be intelligent on the Mac].
Plus, with a Student or Developer discount--that mac becomes 61$ *CHEAPER* than the comparable opteron system.
Plus Plus, on the Mac--you have a full system warranty. The "whitebox opteron" gives you warranties from each supplier. If we through in AppleCare vs getting a full warranty on each of these, the Mac becomes even more attractive.
Plus Plus Plus:
Ergonomically, which one is easier to work with internally? The beautifully well layed out mac.
Which one will be quieter? The mac by a huge shot.
Which one will actually look nice in the office? The mac.
yeh similar in specs, but i see these pentium 3.6ghz, 1g ram, top video card with lcd screen for almost half price that of the G5 with only 512ram and mediocre GPU.
and am betting that photoshop runs pretty much the same on both.
dont get me wrong though, i'd buy a mac over a pc anyday.
Actually Opteron does come in a single processor variant. anything that is in the 100 to 199 range would be single CPU Opteron. Dual Opterons start at 200. The processor you outlined was a single CPU version. Opteron64/150
And if you REALLY wanna get technical... that case compared to apple's is cheap. You could easily get a LianLi case (that actually looks like the g5 case) for 200 without a power supply. That powersupply that the aspire case comes with isn't the greatest of Power supplies either so add another 60-100 for that as well. And that case is a wind tunnel... don't forget about stress factor ... btw I love aspire... just can't compare them to apple's case.
On top of that, developer discount brings the dual 2.5 down to 2399. Just thought you should know .
I just spec'd out an AlienWare Rosewell 5500 almost identical to the whitebox above [comparable to the dual G5, therefore].
Price: 3999$ w/1yr warranty [not an applecare 3yr]
Quote:
Originally posted by quamb
yeh similar in specs, but i see these pentium 3.6ghz, 1g ram, top video card with lcd screen for almost half price that of the G5 with only 512ram and mediocre GPU.
Yeah, but that's like taking a 2004 Ford Taurus to the Mercedes dealer and asking to swap it for a C220 because they both have the same horsepower.
I've had a few PCs--mostly hand-built by me--running every Windows OS since W3.11 except NT4. And linux, etc.
I've had a 486 die, a P-3 die--both with catastrophic data loss. That's two of three PCs I've owned. There have been more than a few other hardware problems as well [like videocards dead after only 1-2 years].
I've also had 9 macs.
I've *never* had data loss on a mac. Period.
Even when my the Apple HD Firmware Update unassociated the drives in my RAID last Summer I didn't lose data [just my mind and a weekend]. Still, that was a software issue.
9 macs over 16 years: 1 bad ethernet transceiver on a 6116
3 PCs over 7 years: failed PS, failed BIOS, failed MB, failed IDE controller, 2x failed VGA cards.
You'd see the same thing comparing Sun vs discount PC: we have Sun boxes here that haven't have a hardware failure during their 10 years of existence. Seems like the power-supply fan in the commodiy PCs last about 18 months.
Quality may be recondite, but its lack certainly is not.
Slow down everyone right now starting here please. This was a peaceful discussion, and still is. Lets not point fingers, and start a Mac vs. PC price war. All they ever do is ruin the thread, and nobody wants to come back, and visit after words.
It may be possible... You'd be better off going with the 6800gt if you're going for price.... currently you can get that machine for about 3k... so It's feasible for it to drop to 2k... but with the graphics card you're looking at another 300 bucks... so I'd say about 2.3k next rev.
I was going to comment on how the latest version of Alias Maya software (v6.5) has yet to publish specific hardware requirements for the Mac yet...
And how the hardware requirements for the Windows/PC platform specifies Quadro-level OpenGL boards...
(Along with the death-kneel for Maya on Irix/SGI, but do you hear anyone bitching about that?!? Not a bit, unlike the pathetic whining that came from certain users when Apple axed further development of Shake for the Windows/PC platform...)
And now, when I go to the Alias website to double-check what I read a week ago...
The specific hardware requirements page is MIA, along with the entire Community and Support sections of their website...
Now, I have been known to be a bit paranoid at times...
But I might be catching a whiff of a 'cover-up' before a release of PowerMacs with revised main logic boards and FINALLY! professional-grade OpenGL boards...
I was going to comment on how the latest version of Alias Maya software (v6.5) has yet to publish specific hardware requirements for the Mac yet...
And how the hardware requirements for the Windows/PC platform specifies Quadro-level OpenGL boards...
(Along with the death-kneel for Maya on Irix/SGI, but do you hear anyone bitching about that?!? Not a bit, unlike the pathetic whining that came from certain users when Apple axed further development of Shake for the Windows/PC platform...)
And now, when I go to the Alias website to double-check what I read a week ago...
The specific hardware requirements page is MIA, along with the entire Community and Support sections of their website...
Now, I have been known to be a bit paranoid at times...
But I might be catching a whiff of a 'cover-up' before a release of PowerMacs with revised main logic boards and FINALLY! professional-grade OpenGL boards...
Ruminate and discuss at your leisure...
You didn't go, and tell me that did you?
Ok, I just checked. Half of the links on the site are missing, but it says they've been making recent changes to the site. There is a lot more missing stuff than what you mentioned alone though. The student pages are gone, uploads and downloads are gone. I think they are ready to use the backup servers now.
This was a peaceful discussion, and still is. Lets not point fingers
Eek. I hope I didn't come accross as being argumentative--I was just trying to put a number on the comparative quality . . . it's far too often overlooked and down-time/data-loss seems more expensive [to me] than saving a few hundred $$$.
Quote:
PowerMac - Anyone else waiting?
Yes for me . . . I've been holding off for the last few months and hoping for a rev to put the 2x2.5 at the current 2x2.0 price-point.
I don't really care about PCI-E or PCI-X, etc. So, I'm not awaiting a new generation of technology--just a lower price for the technology that's already out there.
Comments
Originally posted by onlooker
...
Adobe probably already has beta 64-bit ready applications, and chances are we'll see them within a year, or so pending intel of course.
Maya just got a full OSX native re-write which is helping their OSX development greatly, and Alias is fully aware of AMD, Intel, and IBM's push on 64-bit. I think it's mostly a matter of all developers waiting on intel, and Microsoft before they decide it's a truely needed push.
People need to realize not all ... most... applications can hardly benefit from 64bit at this point. Yes maya, PS, Lightwave, cinema, etc etc can benefit a great deal. But your average run of the mill developer who programs applications such as BBEdit, OmniGraffle, etc don't have a great need for 64bit yet. Your main applications that can benefit from 64bit are million+ lines of code. This takes time to port. In some cases its as simple as a recompile for some simple applications... however this isn't the case for these major programs.
It will happen with time. Develops are more than willing to port applications to 64bit if it means money will be made from it. If it won't increase revenue on the application then there isn't a point to upgrade it.
As stated, it will happen eventually, just like the transition from 16bit -> 32bit.
pc's are as cheap as ever, and powermacs are expensive as ever at the moment.
all they gotta do is drop the prices, add more ram/GPU/hd size as standard and WAM BAM we'll be happy till the 'big' revision comes. come'on apple!
Of course I buy with developer discounts, so a 2999 powermac usually ends up around 2300.
Even if they didn't drop the prices, they could at least add more ram, better GPU, harddrive.... ram and harddrive they aren't that reliant on other companies... so that is 100% feasible. As far as GPU they ARE reliant on ATI and NVidia to get their acts together. If NVidia would release a 6600gt for the mac everything would be perfect.
Stick the 6600gt in the bottom line, the ATI 9800xt in the middle line, and 6800gt in the top line. That leaves the x800xt and 6800ultra as BTO options. And if you want you can even put the 9600xt and the 5200ultra in there for BTO options to further drop the price if needed.
Apple has completely lost sight of the BTO principle. It's now a gimic to get you to buy other apple stuff instead of truly customizing the machine. It does add more money to have customizeable machines... that's understandable... but it would make a lot more users happy. How hard is it to pull out a graphics card and put another in... take me about a minute. And if I was doing that for a living it would be done in 30 seconds each. How hard can that be? I mean the case is already open for ram, might as well do graphics cards too.
Originally posted by quamb
the idea of a 'promac' seems pointless - as their powermac line IS the promac - it's just that Apple aint keeping up with the times in terms of features and cost.
pc's are as cheap as ever, and powermacs are expensive as ever at the moment.
all they gotta do is drop the prices, add more ram/GPU/hd size as standard and WAM BAM we'll be happy till the 'big' revision comes. come'on apple!
I thought I made a good case for a ProMac in saying (not an actual quote) that "more added features are things that the majority of PowerMac users don't need. Adding cost to their computers would be unnecessary." Things like that are important to people, and Apple is starting to address that as you can see with the Mac Mini.
It could also bring down costs to the PowerMac line in future revisions. People are constantly saying there is no need for this, and that right now because it's unnecessary, but it's usually only unnecessary to them. If there were a ProMac, PowerMac users wouldn't have to relinquish a PCI-X slot for the second PCI-E slot. They would not have an optional Hot Swap Drive Carriage. (similar to the alienware workstation) Things like that cost, and in the case of the missing PCI-X slot - musicians use those, but they really have no need for a second PCI-E slot. So adding a second motherboard to the mix isn't as bad to some as it may seem to you. I suppose it doesn't have to have a new name, but that could go either way. It depends on how much of a chunk of the Pro Market Apple would want it to address on it's arrival, and how big, and broad a statement they could make with it. The Introduction alone could cause a stir.
On the reverse, adding a second MB, and keeping the PowerMac name with little hoopla would cause its own stir after Apple mentioned it's feature list. People would talk, and murmurs of available features would spread in pro markets just the same then too, but it would be of their own curiosity if they came to apple.com to take a peek for them self's.
tho most production studios I've been at use apple hardware, so any pro-powermac config will sure to make the rounds via word-of-mouth (rather then re-branding).
Originally posted by emig647
Yah they are pretty expensive
Are they? Check this out:
(real prices)
Dual G5 2.5GHz vs Dual Opteron64 2.4GHz
=====Dual Opteron64 (w/comparable MB to Apple)=====
=====Used as many OEM discounts as possible========
MainBoard:__512$ Tyan Thunder K8S Pro Dual Opteron +SATA, +1000T-LAN, +USB
CPU:_______1188$ Dual AMD Opteron64/150, 1MB/L2 @ 2.4GHz
RAM:________254$ 2x512MiB PC3200/400MHz CAS=3-4-4 (you could knock 100$ off that by buying garbage RAM
FAN:________240$ Water-cooled system for 2 CPUS (i'm using One serially connecting 2cpus
__________________If that didn't work, it'd be 400$.
__________________This adds on an *external* pump, a PCI card, and a breach in the case).
HDD:________112$ Seagate 160GB Barracuda 7200RPM STATA
VGA:________138$ ATI Radeon 9600/XT/128MiB (Sapphire)
DVD:_________60$ Sony CDRW/DVD-RW
CASE/PS:____139$ Aspire Aluminium alloy w/500W PS, side window, case-fans
KBD:_________25$ Keybd + Mouse, USB
Sound:_______36$ SoundBlaster Audigy ES (probably not as good as Apple's on-board)
FireWire:____15$ 3+1 Port Firewire PCI
OS:_________150$ Windows XP Pro SP2
==================================================
___________2869$
Stock Apple 2.5GHz, same configuration:
___________3120$
Price difference: 251$
The G5 will still be higher quality because most of the accessories are *integrated*--a good example being the water cooling and the fans [which will be intelligent on the Mac].
Plus, with a Student or Developer discount--that mac becomes 61$ *CHEAPER* than the comparable opteron system.
Plus Plus, on the Mac--you have a full system warranty. The "whitebox opteron" gives you warranties from each supplier. If we through in AppleCare vs getting a full warranty on each of these, the Mac becomes even more attractive.
Plus Plus Plus:
Ergonomically, which one is easier to work with internally? The beautifully well layed out mac.
Which one will be quieter? The mac by a huge shot.
Which one will actually look nice in the office? The mac.
The list goes on.
and am betting that photoshop runs pretty much the same on both.
dont get me wrong though, i'd buy a mac over a pc anyday.
Originally posted by dumpster_d
Are they? Check this out:
Dual G5 2.5GHz vs Dual Opteron64 2.4GHz
=====Dual Opteron64 (w/comparable MB to Apple)=====
=====Used as many OEM discounts as possible========
MainBoard:__512$ Tyan Thunder K8S Pro Dual Opteron +SATA, +1000T-LAN, +USB
CPU:_______1188$ Dual AMD Opteron64/150 , 1MB/L2 @ 2.4GHz
.
Actually Opteron does come in a single processor variant. anything that is in the 100 to 199 range would be single CPU Opteron. Dual Opterons start at 200. The processor you outlined was a single CPU version. Opteron64/150
Originally posted by dumpster_d
Are they? Check this out:
...[/FONT]
And if you REALLY wanna get technical... that case compared to apple's is cheap. You could easily get a LianLi case (that actually looks like the g5 case) for 200 without a power supply. That powersupply that the aspire case comes with isn't the greatest of Power supplies either so add another 60-100 for that as well. And that case is a wind tunnel... don't forget about stress factor
On top of that, developer discount brings the dual 2.5 down to 2399. Just thought you should know
Price: 3999$ w/1yr warranty [not an applecare 3yr]
Originally posted by quamb
yeh similar in specs, but i see these pentium 3.6ghz, 1g ram, top video card with lcd screen for almost half price that of the G5 with only 512ram and mediocre GPU.
Yeah, but that's like taking a 2004 Ford Taurus to the Mercedes dealer and asking to swap it for a C220 because they both have the same horsepower.
I've had a few PCs--mostly hand-built by me--running every Windows OS since W3.11 except NT4. And linux, etc.
I've had a 486 die, a P-3 die--both with catastrophic data loss. That's two of three PCs I've owned. There have been more than a few other hardware problems as well [like videocards dead after only 1-2 years].
I've also had 9 macs.
I've *never* had data loss on a mac. Period.
Even when my the Apple HD Firmware Update unassociated the drives in my RAID last Summer I didn't lose data [just my mind and a weekend]. Still, that was a software issue.
9 macs over 16 years: 1 bad ethernet transceiver on a 6116
3 PCs over 7 years: failed PS, failed BIOS, failed MB, failed IDE controller, 2x failed VGA cards.
You'd see the same thing comparing Sun vs discount PC: we have Sun boxes here that haven't have a hardware failure during their 10 years of existence. Seems like the power-supply fan in the commodiy PCs last about 18 months.
Quality may be recondite, but its lack certainly is not.
We hear you all.
Slow down everyone right now starting here please. This was a peaceful discussion, and still is. Lets not point fingers, and start a Mac vs. PC price war. All they ever do is ruin the thread, and nobody wants to come back, and visit after words.
So...
PowerMac - Anyone else waiting?
I'd like a Dual 2GHz
with two 512MB sticks of memory,
250GB Maxtor MaxLine III,
16x SuperDrive, and
x700 or whatever can drive the 30" ACD
$2000
Any chance?
But my guess is:
dual 2.3, dual 2.5, dual 2.8
Anyone disagree?
Originally posted by BJNY
How much longer do you all expect will be the wait?
I'd like a Dual 2GHz
with two 512MB sticks of memory,
250GB Maxtor MaxLine III,
16x SuperDrive, and
x700 or whatever can drive the 30" ACD
$2000
Any chance?
i seriously doubt it would drop to 2000 (maybe edu), but i could see that replacing the current 2Ghz model.
And how the hardware requirements for the Windows/PC platform specifies Quadro-level OpenGL boards...
(Along with the death-kneel for Maya on Irix/SGI, but do you hear anyone bitching about that?!? Not a bit, unlike the pathetic whining that came from certain users when Apple axed further development of Shake for the Windows/PC platform...)
And now, when I go to the Alias website to double-check what I read a week ago...
The specific hardware requirements page is MIA, along with the entire Community and Support sections of their website...
Now, I have been known to be a bit paranoid at times...
But I might be catching a whiff of a 'cover-up' before a release of PowerMacs with revised main logic boards and FINALLY! professional-grade OpenGL boards...
Ruminate and discuss at your leisure...
Originally posted by MacRonin
I was going to comment on how the latest version of Alias Maya software (v6.5) has yet to publish specific hardware requirements for the Mac yet...
And how the hardware requirements for the Windows/PC platform specifies Quadro-level OpenGL boards...
(Along with the death-kneel for Maya on Irix/SGI, but do you hear anyone bitching about that?!? Not a bit, unlike the pathetic whining that came from certain users when Apple axed further development of Shake for the Windows/PC platform...)
And now, when I go to the Alias website to double-check what I read a week ago...
The specific hardware requirements page is MIA, along with the entire Community and Support sections of their website...
Now, I have been known to be a bit paranoid at times...
But I might be catching a whiff of a 'cover-up' before a release of PowerMacs with revised main logic boards and FINALLY! professional-grade OpenGL boards...
Ruminate and discuss at your leisure...
You didn't go, and tell me that did you?
Ok, I just checked. Half of the links on the site are missing, but it says they've been making recent changes to the site. There is a lot more missing stuff than what you mentioned alone though. The student pages are gone, uploads and downloads are gone. I think they are ready to use the backup servers now.
He just laughed.
02/2005?
06/2004
11/2003
06/2003
01/2003
08/2002
01/2002
Personally, I am just waiting for a bump in CPU with the middle of the road landing at 2.5 Ghz with price drop.
Dual 2.5GHz PowerPC G5
1.25GHz frontside bus/processor
512K L2 cache/processor
512MB DDR400 SDRAM
Expandable to 8GB SDRAM
200GB Serial ATA
12x SuperDrive
Three PCI-X Slots
ATI Radeon 9600 XT
256MB DDR video memory
56K internal modem
Bluetooth
Airport Extreme
$2,499
BZ
Actually you can get that machine for that price now.
2.5 for 2599
It's refurbed... but who cares, same apple warranty.
I'd hope if that machine was middle of the line they'd at least upgrade the motherboard for PCI-E.
Originally posted by onlooker
This was a peaceful discussion, and still is. Lets not point fingers
Eek. I hope I didn't come accross as being argumentative--I was just trying to put a number on the comparative quality . . . it's far too often overlooked and down-time/data-loss seems more expensive [to me] than saving a few hundred $$$.
PowerMac - Anyone else waiting?
Yes for me . . . I've been holding off for the last few months and hoping for a rev to put the 2x2.5 at the current 2x2.0 price-point.
I don't really care about PCI-E or PCI-X, etc. So, I'm not awaiting a new generation of technology--just a lower price for the technology that's already out there.