So then they offer a DSL package... and a cable modem package... and oh, not every DSL or cable provider is compatible with the others, so you have to have one for each... and then when 802.11g gets usurped you have to buy a whole new setup just to make sure that you can get the higher speeds... :P
Too many variables.
Orthogonality of design is important in networking as in most other things... the connection to your ISP has nothing to do with the WiFi technology, has nothing to with how many cabled computers you have... they're all independent, and should remain so in my mind. Let each be addressed by a solution that meets that part of the puzzle, and lets the rest stand on their own.
*shrug*
But if your setup is truly something you're not going to bother upgrading to 802.11n or various MAN technologies coming out, and you're not planning on moving anywhere in that time frame, then you'll be fine.
And before anyone jumps in with the iMac as the counter example of the all-in-one, I'd point out that with a couple of exceptions (display, graphics card), there are a number of highly useful ways to expand the system without replacing it: the ports. With networking gear, the Ethernet ports *ARE* the expansion mechanism, and they're everywhere. This makes it extremely easy to put together the pieces you need, and adapt as your needs change.
If you have AirPort you'll have to upgrade your computers and basestation to 802.11n. If I want 802.11n I have to upgrade my router and computers. The all-in-one device is simpler for novices and space saving. As I use my wireless network for internet I do not need to upgrade until internet speeds are faster than 54mbps. I can see the reasons for not including a modem but until they do i will not buy a AirPort basestation (might get Express though )
If you have AirPort you'll have to upgrade your computers and basestation to 802.11n. If I want 802.11n I have to upgrade my router and computers. The all-in-one device is simpler for novices and space saving. As I use my wireless network for internet I do not need to upgrade until internet speeds are faster than 54mbps. I can see the reasons for not including a modem but until they do i will not buy a AirPort basestation (might get Express though )
802.11n also has range benefits (8 times the range of 802.11g), and multi-protocol support so that you can still use faster links when 802.11b devices are present. The belkin 802.11n router is in my system now, and it is far better than any Linksys product that I have owned.
If apple moved to 802.11n, I would probably upgrade my computers (well, mine anyway - my wife and kids can stay at 802.11g).
Where? Right there on the System preferences panel. They could add an emulated right click just there where you could adjust the speed. Very easy.
You can still choose peripherals as we speak, just go out and buy it. You don't need to wait for Apple to give you a multi-button mouse.
Say it costs them $10 to put in that crappy mouse and keyboard with my machine..
Why not allow people to buy without and get a $10 coupon to buy something else?
BTW, as I said before I have an eight (8) button mouse with 4 way scroll. I'm also enjoying my modified Logitech Elite keyboard.
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to pay"* for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to throw away (well, toss the mouse at least).
* Note: It is probable that Apple absorbs some if not all of the cost of the keyboard and mouse when setting their pricing scheme, so saying they're "forcing us to pay" is actually totally misguided. However, other people with lesser knowledge of economics have used this argument and won popular opinion like in the thread about the iPod no longer carrying a firewire cable, so I'm using it here.
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to pay" for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to throw away (well, toss the mouse at least).
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to buy" for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to need anyway .
See how easy it is to flip that? While you don't want the mouse and keyboard there will be someone else who wants it. The best way is to err on the side of caution and include the necessary items to have a full functioning computer price permitting. Never hurts to have a backup.
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to buy" for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to need anyway .
See how easy it is to flip that? While you don't want the mouse and keyboard there will be someone else who wants it. The best way is to err on the side of caution and include the necessary items to have a full functioning computer price permitting. Never hurts to have a backup.
this is ALL I'm asking for:
On the applestore website, I want to see this:
Edit: It should be noted that when you buy the Mac Mini, to get the crappy keyboard and mouse that come standard with the other desktops, it costs $58! That's not even for the wireless version! That's why I raised the asking refund to $20
*looks at my black one-button Apple mouse* Why do people hate you?? You're perfect!
If Apple is indeed in the process of tweaking their traditional mouse, couldn't it be possible they are just adding features like the ones included in the new PowerBook trackpads? Just to make things fair with the mouse-using folks and provide the same navigating experience to everyone? Just a thought.
Maybe make it rock forward for left click and backwards for right click...like a see-saw...
This is something I have proposed here before and the only solution that would maintain the elegance of the Apple Pro mouse.
I have everything from an MS intellimouse (now broken), a Watcom tablet & pen, a couple of trackballs, several multi-button and scrollwheel mice, even some kind of "air" mouse that never worked right.
After trying all that, my main system (a Powerbook) uses the Apple cordless keyboard & mouse with a Griffin PowerMate attached. My tower (500 dual) has the tablet and trackball attached, but I find myself using the stock Pro mouse that came with it more than anything.
No mouse has yet provided a better feel than the stock Pro mouse. The bluetooth mouse comes closest, but the weight (with the batteries) makes the Pro mouse better for me.
My wife uses an Apple pro mouse on her (handed down) Thinkpad, and prefers it to any of the others I've given her to try.
For me the ideal Apple mouse would have the "back click" as trtam proposed and a small scroll wheel of some type, with maybe the side grips enabled to activate expose.
One thing I HATE about many Windows apps is that some commands are only available using the right-click, and sometimes a right-click-with-modifier.
I use a four button mouse, but I love the fact that Mac apps only require one button. I also love the fact that most Mac apps have all commands available in the menu bar, even if I chose to use a different method. It makes explaining how to use an app for the first time a lot easier since I only have to deal with one hierarchy.
If Apple sells a two-button-mouse they ought to make those human interface guidelines clearer (as they were originally before the Aqua guidelines neutered them).
One thing I HATE about many Windows apps is that some commands are only available using the right-click, and sometimes a right-click-with-modifier.
I use a four button mouse, but I love the fact that Mac apps only require one button. I also love the fact that most Mac apps have all commands available in the menu bar, even if I chose to use a different method. It makes explaining how to use an app for the first time a lot easier since I only have to deal with one hierarchy.
If Apple sells a two-button-mouse they ought to make those human interface guidelines clearer (as they were originally before the Aqua guidelines neutered them).
I am in total agreement with you. As long as the interface rules stay made for one button I'll be happy. I don't think people realise the effect it has on the OS if you make it two buttons by default. I hope one button remains standard for ever!!
i also vote on a 3 button mouse, preferably the third button being for the thumb on the inside groove, but ill settle for it any other way.
scroll wheels i could careless about, and wireless with a dock (or able to use iPod dock), and they should start selling the dock seperately and sell iPods cheaper without them. the dock can be used to recharge future apple hardware. (assuming they use the same voltage)
they should start selling the dock seperately and sell iPods cheaper without them. the dock can be used to recharge future apple hardware. (assuming they use the same voltage)
All current iPods are sold without a dock already.
What do you guys think about this mouse? I haven't used it but looks interesting. It should be Bluetooth, and the reviews suggest it could be more comfortable to hold, but those are issues Apple could easily fix.
As for HIDING stuff in context-menus like Windows does, devs can already be lazy about that if they wish. They shouldn't--one more UI guideline to promote, but no more important than, say, drag-and-drop text support. No good dev would violate either guideline.
And many devs do violate both, including Apple. Apple et.al. hide undocumented features from us behind mouse clicks and shortcuts that require modifier keys, for example. I'm always discovering new ones, either by reading about them, exploration, or just plain accidentally.
I usually don't care if it takes a shift-control-option-command-click somewhere to invoke something as much as I wish that functionality were consistently documented. I wish "Help > Keyboard and Mouse Shortcuts" were being used more often as a complete quick reference for those shortcuts.
True, but they don't often purposefully hide *BASIC* functionality behind such things. Those are usually little 'extras' like Shift-click on a minimized window in the Dock to watch it expand in slo-mo.
Rarely do actual honest to god tools end up being found only in modified clicks. Take opt-drag in the Finder to make a copy at the destination. This is just a shortcut for Duplicating the item in the original folder, moving it, and renaming it back to the original. Or cmd-opt-drag for making an alias. You can also make an alias, then drag it. The modified mouse events are just efficiency shortcuts for things you can do with no modifiers.
Sometimes, yes, even Apple screws up, but those times are quite rare. Other developers need to be trained to work the same way. Windows and Linux devs *don't* automatically think that way, it's really quite a foreign concept to most. Take a look at a lot of Windows and Linux software, and you'll find that multiple buttons are required just to get at basic tools. Hence, the one-button mouse enforcement of good guidelines.
Yup. And when it gets rolled out here, I can replace my DSL modem with an 802.11n access point, and have it be the ISP link. Then I can upgrade my laptop at my convenience. In the meantime, the rest of my network setup doesn't have to change at all. Excellent.
Comments
Originally posted by Kickaha
So then they offer a DSL package... and a cable modem package... and oh, not every DSL or cable provider is compatible with the others, so you have to have one for each... and then when 802.11g gets usurped you have to buy a whole new setup just to make sure that you can get the higher speeds... :P
Too many variables.
Orthogonality of design is important in networking as in most other things... the connection to your ISP has nothing to do with the WiFi technology, has nothing to with how many cabled computers you have... they're all independent, and should remain so in my mind. Let each be addressed by a solution that meets that part of the puzzle, and lets the rest stand on their own.
*shrug*
But if your setup is truly something you're not going to bother upgrading to 802.11n or various MAN technologies coming out, and you're not planning on moving anywhere in that time frame, then you'll be fine.
And before anyone jumps in with the iMac as the counter example of the all-in-one, I'd point out that with a couple of exceptions (display, graphics card), there are a number of highly useful ways to expand the system without replacing it: the ports. With networking gear, the Ethernet ports *ARE* the expansion mechanism, and they're everywhere. This makes it extremely easy to put together the pieces you need, and adapt as your needs change.
If you have AirPort you'll have to upgrade your computers and basestation to 802.11n. If I want 802.11n I have to upgrade my router and computers. The all-in-one device is simpler for novices and space saving. As I use my wireless network for internet I do not need to upgrade until internet speeds are faster than 54mbps. I can see the reasons for not including a modem but until they do i will not buy a AirPort basestation (might get Express though
Originally posted by MacCrazy
If you have AirPort you'll have to upgrade your computers and basestation to 802.11n. If I want 802.11n I have to upgrade my router and computers. The all-in-one device is simpler for novices and space saving. As I use my wireless network for internet I do not need to upgrade until internet speeds are faster than 54mbps. I can see the reasons for not including a modem but until they do i will not buy a AirPort basestation (might get Express though
802.11n also has range benefits (8 times the range of 802.11g), and multi-protocol support so that you can still use faster links when 802.11b devices are present. The belkin 802.11n router is in my system now, and it is far better than any Linksys product that I have owned.
If apple moved to 802.11n, I would probably upgrade my computers (well, mine anyway - my wife and kids can stay at 802.11g).
Originally posted by monkeyastronaut
Where? Right there on the System preferences panel. They could add an emulated right click just there where you could adjust the speed. Very easy.
You can still choose peripherals as we speak, just go out and buy it.
Say it costs them $10 to put in that crappy mouse and keyboard with my machine..
Why not allow people to buy without and get a $10 coupon to buy something else?
BTW, as I said before I have an eight (8) button mouse with 4 way scroll. I'm also enjoying my modified Logitech Elite keyboard.
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to pay"* for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to throw away (well, toss the mouse at least).
* Note: It is probable that Apple absorbs some if not all of the cost of the keyboard and mouse when setting their pricing scheme, so saying they're "forcing us to pay" is actually totally misguided. However, other people with lesser knowledge of economics have used this argument and won popular opinion like in the thread about the iPod no longer carrying a firewire cable, so I'm using it here.
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to pay" for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to throw away (well, toss the mouse at least).
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to buy" for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to need anyway .
See how easy it is to flip that? While you don't want the mouse and keyboard there will be someone else who wants it. The best way is to err on the side of caution and include the necessary items to have a full functioning computer price permitting. Never hurts to have a backup.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I really don't understand why Apple is "forcing us to buy" for a keyboard and mouse that half of us are going to need anyway .
See how easy it is to flip that? While you don't want the mouse and keyboard there will be someone else who wants it. The best way is to err on the side of caution and include the necessary items to have a full functioning computer price permitting. Never hurts to have a backup.
this is ALL I'm asking for:
On the applestore website, I want to see this:
Edit: It should be noted that when you buy the Mac Mini, to get the crappy keyboard and mouse that come standard with the other desktops, it costs $58! That's not even for the wireless version! That's why I raised the asking refund to $20
If Apple is indeed in the process of tweaking their traditional mouse, couldn't it be possible they are just adding features like the ones included in the new PowerBook trackpads? Just to make things fair with the mouse-using folks and provide the same navigating experience to everyone? Just a thought.
Originally posted by trtam
Maybe make it rock forward for left click and backwards for right click...like a see-saw...
This is something I have proposed here before and the only solution that would maintain the elegance of the Apple Pro mouse.
I have everything from an MS intellimouse (now broken), a Watcom tablet & pen, a couple of trackballs, several multi-button and scrollwheel mice, even some kind of "air" mouse that never worked right.
After trying all that, my main system (a Powerbook) uses the Apple cordless keyboard & mouse with a Griffin PowerMate attached. My tower (500 dual) has the tablet and trackball attached, but I find myself using the stock Pro mouse that came with it more than anything.
No mouse has yet provided a better feel than the stock Pro mouse. The bluetooth mouse comes closest, but the weight (with the batteries) makes the Pro mouse better for me.
My wife uses an Apple pro mouse on her (handed down) Thinkpad, and prefers it to any of the others I've given her to try.
For me the ideal Apple mouse would have the "back click" as trtam proposed and a small scroll wheel of some type, with maybe the side grips enabled to activate expose.
I use a four button mouse, but I love the fact that Mac apps only require one button. I also love the fact that most Mac apps have all commands available in the menu bar, even if I chose to use a different method. It makes explaining how to use an app for the first time a lot easier since I only have to deal with one hierarchy.
If Apple sells a two-button-mouse they ought to make those human interface guidelines clearer (as they were originally before the Aqua guidelines neutered them).
Originally posted by strobe
One thing I HATE about many Windows apps is that some commands are only available using the right-click, and sometimes a right-click-with-modifier.
I use a four button mouse, but I love the fact that Mac apps only require one button. I also love the fact that most Mac apps have all commands available in the menu bar, even if I chose to use a different method. It makes explaining how to use an app for the first time a lot easier since I only have to deal with one hierarchy.
If Apple sells a two-button-mouse they ought to make those human interface guidelines clearer (as they were originally before the Aqua guidelines neutered them).
I am in total agreement with you. As long as the interface rules stay made for one button I'll be happy. I don't think people realise the effect it has on the OS if you make it two buttons by default. I hope one button remains standard for ever!!
scroll wheels i could careless about, and wireless with a dock (or able to use iPod dock), and they should start selling the dock seperately and sell iPods cheaper without them. the dock can be used to recharge future apple hardware. (assuming they use the same voltage)
Notice how I didn't shoot for the obvious pr0n joke.
Originally posted by sickoperationz
they should start selling the dock seperately and sell iPods cheaper without them. the dock can be used to recharge future apple hardware. (assuming they use the same voltage)
All current iPods are sold without a dock already.
Originally posted by JBL
What do you guys think about this mouse? I haven't used it but looks interesting.
These have been around for ages, but I don't think I've ever seen the Gyration animation on the left which kinda looks like pocket pool
Originally posted by Ben Huebscher
you really souldn't have to use your keyboard for Exposé
You don't have to; hot corners can activate Exposé.
Originally posted by nagromme
As for HIDING stuff in context-menus like Windows does, devs can already be lazy about that if they wish. They shouldn't--one more UI guideline to promote, but no more important than, say, drag-and-drop text support. No good dev would violate either guideline.
And many devs do violate both, including Apple. Apple et.al. hide undocumented features from us behind mouse clicks and shortcuts that require modifier keys, for example. I'm always discovering new ones, either by reading about them, exploration, or just plain accidentally.
I usually don't care if it takes a shift-control-option-command-click somewhere to invoke something as much as I wish that functionality were consistently documented. I wish "Help > Keyboard and Mouse Shortcuts" were being used more often as a complete quick reference for those shortcuts.
Rarely do actual honest to god tools end up being found only in modified clicks. Take opt-drag in the Finder to make a copy at the destination. This is just a shortcut for Duplicating the item in the original folder, moving it, and renaming it back to the original. Or cmd-opt-drag for making an alias. You can also make an alias, then drag it. The modified mouse events are just efficiency shortcuts for things you can do with no modifiers.
Sometimes, yes, even Apple screws up, but those times are quite rare. Other developers need to be trained to work the same way. Windows and Linux devs *don't* automatically think that way, it's really quite a foreign concept to most. Take a look at a lot of Windows and Linux software, and you'll find that multiple buttons are required just to get at basic tools. Hence, the one-button mouse enforcement of good guidelines.
next step: 3d space, gyration mouse sensing the Z so u can go in and out rather then just left right, up down
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1777308,00.asp