Hmmmm...I think Apple should stop trying to reinvent the wheel and ship a basic scroll-wheel three button mouse. Apple's one button mouse doesn't seem like such an ergonomic breakthrough, and the troubling thing is that Apple believes their own one-button mouse is a work of genius. It's a good thing Apple doesn't build cars, or we would have oblong steering wheels and radios with one knob to control everything. Yes, sometimes designers put too many functions on the right mouse button, but you know what? It's also a problem with designers put too many controls on the LEFT button. Spread functions out between two buttons and a computer is much easier to use. Oh, and I've seen many frustrated Mac users who couldn't remember all the arcane key combos they needed because of Apple's stubbornness over the one button mouse.
We're at the point now where independent designers are making the true innovations in mouse design. Many users don't want an innovative mouse, they want something simple that doesn't make their wrist or hand hurt. Apple should cater to these users and let the "power-users" buy their own 12 button mice with twin scroll wheels and optical document scanner.
Yes, sometimes designers put too many functions on the right mouse button, but you know what? It's also a problem with designers put too many controls on the LEFT button.
JD, that sentence simply doesn't even make sense. The left button is what interacts with the UI widgets on screen in a direct manner. What you're saying is that the UI widgets are what... cumbersome? Or are you trying to discuss modifier-key-assisted-left-clicks? Red herring. The functionality will still be found elsewhere using unmodified-left-click in a well designed system.
Modifier-click, or right/center/upper-left/behind-your-back-click, it doesn't matter, those are simply not unmodified-left-click, and are to be treated equally: as efficiency items only.
This sounds like the kind of mouse I'm looking for, I'd buy one of these if I get an iMac or mini;
Quote:
Apple is known to have patented a "scroll wheel mouse" that uses a small iPod-like trackpad atop an otherwise familiar Apple mouse design; more recent recon suggests the new mouse will also come equipped to detect "right-clicks" when the mouse is pressed on its right side but that there will be no actual separate button.
This feature will only be enabled by default on PowerMacs with which it will ship; on consumer-oriented Macs, Apple's mouse drives will detect only standard single-button functionality from the mouse unless the user enables right-click detection in the Mouse preference panel.
In this way, Apple finally brings additional mouse functionality to market without breaking one of its core human-interface principles: no application should *require* or expect multiple mouse buttons by default.
This is from macosxrumors.com, apologies if it has already been posted.
The one think I'd love to see in Airport, but I don't think we will, is a base station with a built-in broadband modem and an audio output. That is all I need, and I'm sure a lot of people would agree. Sure, chuck in a USB port and an ethernet as well just to keep everyone happy, and make it £100 and I'd be there. As it is, if I want to go wireless, I need to buy a wireless broadband modem router, an airport card, and an airport express - that's a lot of money so I'll be staying wired unless Apple can do the above for me.
JD, that sentence simply doesn't even make sense. The left button is what interacts with the UI widgets on screen in a direct manner. What you're saying is that the UI widgets are what... cumbersome? Or are you trying to discuss modifier-key-assisted-left-clicks? Red herring. The functionality will still be found elsewhere using unmodified-left-click in a well designed system
Yes, it makes sense. I'm talking about Apple putting too many functions in their single button. Key combos take two hands, a right-click is ONE finger. Tell me how Apple's method is better.
Red herring. We were discussing creating a UI where the *only* access to certain functionality was in right-or-other click. That's the quagmire that a single button as default avoids.
What you're discussing is how one accesses secondary functionality for efficiency. Apple supports multiple buttons just fine. If you want one, go get one, no one's stopping you, the support is in the OS.
Why wouldn't a wireless mouse be standard? I've seen my share of latency filled wireless mice, but take for example the Logitech MX1000 laser mouse wireless using fastrf.
That mouse is the best one in the market!
On another note, perhaps the Apple mouse will be like this:
Have two buttons - left side clicks, not 'button' as such (as with the current one) and right side same as the left. The scroll wheel won't be a crude out of date ugly looking wheel , but instead will be a touch sensitive strip in the middle of the two buttons, like the iPods.
And use the same wireless system as the Logitech mouse, but Apple has a fetish with bluetooth, so this isn't going to happen.
Why do you find it too heavy? I think the weight is alright. The shape is a bit weird though. But despite that I still reckon it's the best mouse out there atm.
logitech's software is dodgy though and so is the tracking on some of the logitech mice. My MX500 is good though. MX1000 is too heavy.
I've never had a problem with the software aside from the MX1000 being too sensitive and I had to modify a plist. Their new version takes care of all of that.
You get used to the weight after a couple weeks. My reaction time in FPS games half the time gets me to the top of the server.
Red herring. We were discussing creating a UI where the *only* access to certain functionality was in right-or-other click. That's the quagmire that a single button as default avoids.
What you're discussing is how one accesses secondary functionality for efficiency. Apple supports multiple buttons just fine. If you want one, go get one, no one's stopping you, the support is in the OS.
It's not a red herring, it's the crux of the issue! If Apple had a two button mouse, what would be wrong with make some functions exclusive to one of the buttons?
It's like this, I've got three stalks on my steering column. One stalk has turn signals and head light functions, the other has windshield wiper functions, and third is for cruise control. You see, each one is specialized and has it's very own functions - no other stalk may have the functions of another. If each of the three stalks did everything, or if, God forbid, the automaker had put all of the functions on a single stalk, it would be a friggin' mess. Well that's Apple, trying to put three stalks worth of functions on one button.
It's just good design to spread functions out among the control surfaces you have. Now with a mouse this could get confusing, probably with three buttons and definitely with >3, but two buttons works. We know it works because millions of people use them on Windows with no problem. Many here at AI use a >2 button mouse and wouldn't part with it for anything.
A one button mouse is a joke. Apple's mice have been jokes for years, and have fueled a Mac mouse industry for those who throw out the "Pro" mouse. And guess what? 90% of replacement Mac mice are >1 button! So the argument that people can't figure out more than one button is bogus.
And note that for every instance of bad two button mouse design, one can find another instance where two buttons makes interacting with the computer faster and more enjoyable. Keeping a one button mouse to defend against bad software development is foolish. It's like sticking with a CRT because one's afraid of a dead pixel.
It's not a red herring, it's the crux of the issue! If Apple had a two button mouse, what would be wrong with make some functions exclusive to one of the buttons?
I'm sorry, have you not been following *any* of the conversation? If that's your opinion, fine, but it flies in the face of every principle of good UI design, comprehension, and usability that research of the last 30 years has put out.
Nothing else is worth arguing about, if that's your initial assumption.
I'm sorry, have you not been following *any* of the conversation? If that's your opinion, fine, but it flies in the face of every principle of good UI design, comprehension, and usability that research of the last 30 years has put out.
Nothing else is worth arguing about, if that's your initial assumption.
Ok, cool.
You stick with your one button mouse, and I'll keep my two button mouse. And Apple will continue shipping one button turds for Mac users to throw away.
You stick with your one button mouse, and I'll keep my two button mouse. And Apple will continue shipping one button turds for Mac users to throw away.
Sounds like a good arrangement to me!
The reason you need more than button is due to bad UI design. If companies, like Microsoft designed a proper interface for Office you would only need one button. If Apple made a two-button mouse it would open the floodgates for more badly designed software. Right-click is a contextual menu, if the software companies (Apple included) made a contextual dashboard one button would suffice. When I'm a home I use an eight-button mouse. When I'm on the move a one-button track-pad. Both work fine for me. Some of Safari's features (such as spell-check) are right-click only and this needs to be addressed. Although right-click is faster than searching through menus. Scrolling is more important than right-click.
You stick with your one button mouse, and I'll keep my two button mouse. And Apple will continue shipping one button turds for Mac users to throw away.
Sounds like a good arrangement to me!
You still don't get it?
He wasn't arguing that he prefers to use a one-button mouse. Instead, he prefers using a platform which ships a one-button mouse as default. It forces developers to not hide things only in contextual menus.
Efficiency is good. That's why Apple supports multiple buttons.
Discoverablility is good. That's why Apples ship with a single-button mouse as default.
D'oh, you're right, it doesn't work on a per-selection basis. Cmd-; goes to the next misspelled word in the text field. The closest thing is to bring up the Spelling box with Cmd-:, then place the cursor before the misspelled word, and hit Cmd-;, or 'Find Next'. If it triggers a misspelling, it will give you the same options in the box as you get in the contextual menu. I *guess* technically that is the same as the right-click, but...
Comments
We're at the point now where independent designers are making the true innovations in mouse design. Many users don't want an innovative mouse, they want something simple that doesn't make their wrist or hand hurt. Apple should cater to these users and let the "power-users" buy their own 12 button mice with twin scroll wheels and optical document scanner.
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Yes, sometimes designers put too many functions on the right mouse button, but you know what? It's also a problem with designers put too many controls on the LEFT button.
JD, that sentence simply doesn't even make sense. The left button is what interacts with the UI widgets on screen in a direct manner. What you're saying is that the UI widgets are what... cumbersome? Or are you trying to discuss modifier-key-assisted-left-clicks? Red herring. The functionality will still be found elsewhere using unmodified-left-click in a well designed system.
Modifier-click, or right/center/upper-left/behind-your-back-click, it doesn't matter, those are simply not unmodified-left-click, and are to be treated equally: as efficiency items only.
Apple is known to have patented a "scroll wheel mouse" that uses a small iPod-like trackpad atop an otherwise familiar Apple mouse design; more recent recon suggests the new mouse will also come equipped to detect "right-clicks" when the mouse is pressed on its right side but that there will be no actual separate button.
This feature will only be enabled by default on PowerMacs with which it will ship; on consumer-oriented Macs, Apple's mouse drives will detect only standard single-button functionality from the mouse unless the user enables right-click detection in the Mouse preference panel.
In this way, Apple finally brings additional mouse functionality to market without breaking one of its core human-interface principles: no application should *require* or expect multiple mouse buttons by default.
This is from macosxrumors.com, apologies if it has already been posted.
Originally posted by sickoperationz
a 3 button gyration mouse would be superb and perfect to go with tiger
next step: 3d space, gyration mouse sensing the Z so u can go in and out rather then just left right, up down
hehehe. I hear you. The Finder will be the coolest 3D game on the Mac.
Originally posted by Kickaha
JD, that sentence simply doesn't even make sense. The left button is what interacts with the UI widgets on screen in a direct manner. What you're saying is that the UI widgets are what... cumbersome? Or are you trying to discuss modifier-key-assisted-left-clicks? Red herring. The functionality will still be found elsewhere using unmodified-left-click in a well designed system
Yes, it makes sense. I'm talking about Apple putting too many functions in their single button. Key combos take two hands, a right-click is ONE finger. Tell me how Apple's method is better.
What you're discussing is how one accesses secondary functionality for efficiency. Apple supports multiple buttons just fine. If you want one, go get one, no one's stopping you, the support is in the OS.
Originally posted by webmail
Why wouldn't a wireless mouse be standard? I've seen my share of latency filled wireless mice, but take for example the Logitech MX1000 laser mouse wireless using fastrf.
That mouse is the best one in the market!
On another note, perhaps the Apple mouse will be like this:
Have two buttons - left side clicks, not 'button' as such (as with the current one) and right side same as the left. The scroll wheel won't be a crude out of date ugly looking wheel
And use the same wireless system as the Logitech mouse, but Apple has a fetish with bluetooth, so this isn't going to happen.
Originally posted by mattyj
That mouse [MX1000] is the best one in the market!
I totally agree!! Best mouse EVAR!
Whatever Apple releases, it's not even going to begin to compare, and the biggest reason you just pointed out:
Originally posted by mattyj
And use the same wireless system as the Logitech mouse, but Apple has a fetish with bluetooth, so this isn't going to happen.
Yeah bluetooth only refreshes 80x per second, logitech and USB both refresh 125x per second.
Not to mention logitech's next-generation laser that nobody has bothered to use but them.
pictures:
button listing
Mouse with stand
Originally posted by slughead
I totally agree!! Best mouse EVAR!
Whatever Apple releases, it's not even going to begin to compare, and the biggest reason you just pointed out:
Yeah bluetooth only refreshes 80x per second, logitech and USB both refresh 125x per second.
Not to mention logitech's next-generation laser that nobody has bothered to use but them.
pictures:
button listing
Mouse with stand
logitech's software is dodgy though and so is the tracking on some of the logitech mice. My MX500 is good though. MX1000 is too heavy.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
logitech's software is dodgy though and so is the tracking on some of the logitech mice. My MX500 is good though. MX1000 is too heavy.
I've never had a problem with the software aside from the MX1000 being too sensitive and I had to modify a plist. Their new version takes care of all of that.
You get used to the weight after a couple weeks. My reaction time in FPS games half the time gets me to the top of the server.
Originally posted by Kickaha
Red herring. We were discussing creating a UI where the *only* access to certain functionality was in right-or-other click. That's the quagmire that a single button as default avoids.
What you're discussing is how one accesses secondary functionality for efficiency. Apple supports multiple buttons just fine. If you want one, go get one, no one's stopping you, the support is in the OS.
It's not a red herring, it's the crux of the issue! If Apple had a two button mouse, what would be wrong with make some functions exclusive to one of the buttons?
It's like this, I've got three stalks on my steering column. One stalk has turn signals and head light functions, the other has windshield wiper functions, and third is for cruise control. You see, each one is specialized and has it's very own functions - no other stalk may have the functions of another. If each of the three stalks did everything, or if, God forbid, the automaker had put all of the functions on a single stalk, it would be a friggin' mess. Well that's Apple, trying to put three stalks worth of functions on one button.
It's just good design to spread functions out among the control surfaces you have. Now with a mouse this could get confusing, probably with three buttons and definitely with >3, but two buttons works. We know it works because millions of people use them on Windows with no problem. Many here at AI use a >2 button mouse and wouldn't part with it for anything.
A one button mouse is a joke. Apple's mice have been jokes for years, and have fueled a Mac mouse industry for those who throw out the "Pro" mouse. And guess what? 90% of replacement Mac mice are >1 button! So the argument that people can't figure out more than one button is bogus.
And note that for every instance of bad two button mouse design, one can find another instance where two buttons makes interacting with the computer faster and more enjoyable. Keeping a one button mouse to defend against bad software development is foolish. It's like sticking with a CRT because one's afraid of a dead pixel.
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
It's not a red herring, it's the crux of the issue! If Apple had a two button mouse, what would be wrong with make some functions exclusive to one of the buttons?
I'm sorry, have you not been following *any* of the conversation? If that's your opinion, fine, but it flies in the face of every principle of good UI design, comprehension, and usability that research of the last 30 years has put out.
Nothing else is worth arguing about, if that's your initial assumption.
Originally posted by Kickaha
I'm sorry, have you not been following *any* of the conversation? If that's your opinion, fine, but it flies in the face of every principle of good UI design, comprehension, and usability that research of the last 30 years has put out.
Nothing else is worth arguing about, if that's your initial assumption.
Ok, cool.
You stick with your one button mouse, and I'll keep my two button mouse. And Apple will continue shipping one button turds for Mac users to throw away.
Sounds like a good arrangement to me!
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Ok, cool.
You stick with your one button mouse, and I'll keep my two button mouse. And Apple will continue shipping one button turds for Mac users to throw away.
Sounds like a good arrangement to me!
The reason you need more than button is due to bad UI design. If companies, like Microsoft designed a proper interface for Office you would only need one button. If Apple made a two-button mouse it would open the floodgates for more badly designed software. Right-click is a contextual menu, if the software companies (Apple included) made a contextual dashboard one button would suffice. When I'm a home I use an eight-button mouse. When I'm on the move a one-button track-pad. Both work fine for me. Some of Safari's features (such as spell-check) are right-click only and this needs to be addressed. Although right-click is faster than searching through menus. Scrolling is more important than right-click.
Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg
Ok, cool.
You stick with your one button mouse, and I'll keep my two button mouse. And Apple will continue shipping one button turds for Mac users to throw away.
Sounds like a good arrangement to me!
You still don't get it?
He wasn't arguing that he prefers to use a one-button mouse. Instead, he prefers using a platform which ships a one-button mouse as default. It forces developers to not hide things only in contextual menus.
Efficiency is good. That's why Apple supports multiple buttons.
Discoverablility is good. That's why Apples ship with a single-button mouse as default.
There is merit in both.
Originally posted by MacCrazy
Some of Safari's features (such as spell-check) are right-click only and this needs to be addressed.
Select text. Edit -> Spelling -> Check Spelling.
Or, Cmd-;
Originally posted by Kickaha
Select text. Edit -> Spelling -> Check Spelling.
Or, Cmd-;
not if you want to check just the selected word quickly without using spell checker for the whole text box.