hmurchison you keep saying that PCI-E is a non issue for hardware developers, but all I see is PCI-E on Nvidia, and ATI's best cards. All anybody wants it for is graphics right now anyway. So why is that such a non issue? NForce4 Pro - side by side with a PowerMac G5 motherboard - Can you list the feature differences for both?
You missed his point. PCI-E is coming! Dual core is coming! Tiger is coming! But if some features are not here this month or even this year, it's not the end of the world. It's a competitive industry, and sometimes Apple will have leading features, sometimes not. We all wish Apple was always leading, so it's easy to get down on Apple when the innovations seem slow in coming.
Second I don't listen to PC users for hardware advice. Especially if they use Windows. I might listen to a PC user running Linux but no way do I take advice from the typical PC user that doesn't know shit.
I think alot of these theories are dead wrong for they don't factor in the age `ol problem of ridding yourself of SURPLUS.
Companies utilize market hype all the time, they just don't upset you as much b/c they're not items of affectionate addiction; if you disagree then why are you arguing with me on AppleInsider.com.
The fact of the matter:
- powermac sales are low, there is a surplus of chipsets and procs to rid before NEXT GEN.
- Tiger has created hype, it run faster than Panther on current G5 chipsets.
- Apple Retail is doing well; I'm sure they're hoping to release alot of surplus G5s via ipod 'halo effect' & Tiger hype.
Moral of the story:
- enjoy gleeming eyes from the public (ie: in-store demos; stores seeing over a million visitors a week mind you) as Tiger re-invents the operating system.
- use it to sell current powermacs to 'naive window switchers'.
- announce 'NEXT GEN' powermac at WWDC -- "one month" AFTER FinalCut ships; that's not THAT long.
- sell even more powermacs.
i think something along those lines is a bit more accurate to their current position.
apple owns your face. quit gettin those panties in a wad.
The more time we spend yapping about dual core pentiums and opterons the less we are being productive. I'm guilty to. I wouldn't have damn near 5000 posts if I was out capturing more video and getting ready to build a little audio/video home studio. [/B]
Let me brag about my productivity as evidenced by my post count, then! (says the guy @slacker.com)
Can you ever see the day when the hardware just doesn't sell and the only option is to make OS X available to Intel/AMD platforms? Would Steve just let Apple cease trading rather than do that?
What, and I'm not saying this on purpose to troll, what if Microsoft pull a blinder with Longhorn and people begin switching BACK? What is the future of OS X? Any one know?
hmurchison you keep saying that PCI-E is a non issue for hardware developers, but all I see is PCI-E on Nvidia, and ATI's best cards. All anybody wants it for is graphics right now anyway. So why is that such a non issue? NForce4 Pro - side by side with a PowerMac G5 motherboard - Can you list the feature differences for both?
Nah I'm not trying to trivialize it for the future. I think PCI Express isn't of much demonstrable value today other than niche markets. That could change for the future and what PCI Express does give you is future proofing. That nForce Pro board is VERY nice and is the superior of Apple's board. I'm happy thought because Apple had a majority of those specs almost a year ago. That kind of makes you have to wonder what they have cooking right now. Sadly whatever the next "big thing" is we aren't likely to see it until January 2006.
You missed his point. PCI-E is coming! Dual core is coming! Tiger is coming! But if some features are not here this month or even this year, it's not the end of the world. It's a competitive industry, and sometimes Apple will have leading features, sometimes not. We all wish Apple was always leading, so it's easy to get down on Apple when the innovations seem slow in coming.
As a pretty recent switcher (mac mini, now a 12" pb, last years model) and a guy that used to spend thousands on the latest windows rigs to play online games, I have to say my view of 2005 Apple is that I'm very impressed. iLife, iWork, shuffle, iPods, Airport Express, very nice stuff.
I miss having a 6800 GPU and a super fast gaming rig, but now with OS X, I have some peace of mind, spending my time enjoying music, photos and movies. Things work well and it makes me happy to say my life is better for it.
If all that Apple shows this year for new hardware is better BTO options for GPU's, more ram and perhaps a dual core G4 'book...I'd be extremely happy.
All this great stuff already and Tiger coming up? What's not to like? Tiger makes this a great year on its own.
I'm sure the high end goodies will be very impressive nonetheless but they aren't targeted for me so its been a great year and its only April!
The interesting thing about the Macintosh faithful is that you be pessimistic about the hardware and one is a troll, you be optimistic about the hardware and you are a god, and have much respect and are in the "in crowd."
All I am sayinging is, how many times have we said "it's coming in the next update.....no no no.....the next update......no, now I know it will be in this update" and on and on. How many times have you really said "it is coming in the next update" and it actually arrive? Or, a truly, amazing breakthrough is announced from only Apple first that make the all around solutions that they currently offer work hand and hand, foot and foot as a monstrous workstation of a beast? I can name a couple, but not many.
I am not arguing that Apple know how to make killer solutions that are way ahead of their competition by a ten fold because lets face it, Apple is and always will be ahead of the game in innovation.
It is also interesting that while we are in idle grounds I will post a pessimistic view on where Apple is going hardware wise yet more than half of the AI crowd will boo at this or at that once new hardware is out because, they are simply not satisfied and feel Apple could do better.
Apple makes grade A + software, but why can't they have grade A + hardware to match? I am not asking for the fastest workstation on earth, but one that will really show their true potential with both their hardware and their software.
The future remains unseen, but based on the past we are moving ahead by taking a step or two back first.
There are faster machines than the iMac G5 and PMG52.5 in the PC world with more features for cheaper, and this was even the case when they were released.
I also think they should've added more drive bays in the PMG5
As for the iPods.. yesterday's chips with today's hard drives, is all I'm saying. Anyone could do what "Apple" has done (btw Apple did not come up with the iPod's technology).
Apple isn't even in the top 50 most-patenting companies, and is 92 in R&D spending--not much, considering they're almost, if not already, a fortune 100 company.
Apple specializes in repackaging and refining other people's technology. That's the iPod, the G5, OS X, the whole show. They do a great job of it, but it's not really innovative.. it's sadly more like what Bill Gates did with Winblows--repackage and resell Mac OS. The difference is, Apple usually pays for their tech.
I find it hard to complain really because I experience true pain. Seeing the Powermac G4 stuck at 500Mhz for 18 months was something of an experience.
Seeing a Dual 2.5Ghz Powermac G5 at almost a year pales in comparison. There just ain't much I can't do with today's Powermac.
The problem stems from having a diverse amount of views. Some people like to see immediate value for their money. Some people like to see future proof computers. Some want the cheapest price and so on.
I think we all tend to get bored before a refresh and its normal for Mac fans to get antsy. We've known about dual core AMD and Intel for months. But we don't know what's in the next Powermac and that's killing some of us.
I don't think the reality for Apple is sad at all. They've doubled their market cap and they have yet to display their hand regarding the next direction of iTunes. They are shipping the most complete OS X version ever this month. Apple doesn't ebb forward in updates they take big leaps.
Even if we only get 2.7Ghz at the top end that computer will be competitive enough to hold its own. The future likely has never been brighter. I know it sounds like i'm drinking the kool aid but I'm not. I use both platforms and the PC market is "ok" but I'm not all that crazy about the hardware over there either. Guess I'm just as impressed with PCI Express yet. There still isn't a killer app for Express that I'm just chomping to get at.
It'll come..but right now I'm seeing more excitement in the ancillary equipment that connects to the digital hub.
There are faster machines than the iMac G5 and PMG52.5 in the PC world with more features for cheaper, and this was even the case when they were released.
Do they run OS X?
Quote:
I also think they should've added more drive bays in the PMG5
Quote:
As for the iPods.. yesterday's chips with today's hard drives, is all I'm saying. Anyone could do what "Apple" has done (btw Apple did not come up with the iPod's technology)
But they didn't which is the most amazing thing. Why does Apple continously find that niche where their products make sense? I know PC companies "could" do it but they don't generally.
Quote:
Apple isn't even in the top 50 most-patenting companies, and is 92 in R&D spending--not much, considering they're almost, if not already, a fortune 100 company
That's efficiency
Repackage or not doesn't really matter. I'm always looking for the proverbial better mousetrap.
You don't have to run OS X to be efficient. You can run Linux, any of the BSDs, or Solaris for that matter.
Just because they can't run OS X, doesn't mean that x86/64 hardware isn't better, faster, and cheaper. It is, and this is a hard fact, not a relative point of view.
You don't have to run OS X to be efficient. You can run Linux, any of the BSDs, or Solaris for that matter.
Just because they can't run OS X, doesn't mean that x86/64 hardware isn't better, faster, and cheaper. It is, and this is a hard fact, not a relative point of view.
Add shake is still faster in linux. Probably a hardware thing.
Yes but there's a reason why Linux is a freely downloadable OS yet still hasn't usurped Windows. It's not up to the level that the masses expect for desktop computing.
Just for a gander folks go peek at Apple.com and click on the "Hardware" and "Software" links. Apple manages a lot of products and frankly I'm impressed with their execution on most of it.
Are we to be impressed with Wintel who just now is moving to dual core after the whole ideology behind Netburst crumbled with Intels problems with clocking? Or Microsoft who's peddling OS X Tiger technologies a year removed in Longhorn.
The grass always looks greener folks. That proverb stands the test of time, a testament to its truth in many of us.
Relax..enjoy your Mac. Enjoy being only %3 in this case. Revel in your uniqueness.
- powermac sales are low, there is a surplus of chipsets and procs to rid before NEXT GEN.
[/B]
So, in that case, why doesn't Apple REDUCE the price of the PowerMac line to get rid of these surplus chips? After all, we all know that in reality the G5 Towers are too expensive for what they offer in real-world performance - and before you say it, yes I understand that you have to pay a lot of cash to get an equally powerful Wintel/AMD box, but at least those machines are easily CPU upgradable, something you're not likely to see in the PMG5 anytime soon! \ I'm no fan of PCs, but at least you can protect your investment to a larger degree buying a PC than with an Apple.
So, in that case, why doesn't Apple REDUCE the price of the PowerMac line to get rid of these surplus chips? After all, we all know that in reality the G5 Towers are too expensive for what they offer in real-world performance - and before you say it, yes I understand that you have to pay a lot of cash to get an equally powerful Wintel/AMD box, but at least those machines are easily CPU upgradable, something you're not likely to see in the PMG5 anytime soon! \ I'm no fan of PCs, but at least you can protect your investment to a larger degree buying a PC than with an Apple.
I think it is just flogging dead horses -
this whole argue about apple prices
compared to the PC competition.
I don't want to repeat every argument, why this
battlefield is a timewaster big time.
But the "Wintel/AMD boxes are easily upgradable" and
"PCs at least can protect your investment to a larger degree
than apple computers" argument is utter trash.
In the real world (AV-studios, grafic, music, video,
film you name it) Apple computers are in use until
they die (after 8-10 years). They handle all tasks
as supposed to do.
Windows based systems are in use until the next
major software update is released. ("Shall i get this
Repackage or not doesn't really matter. I'm always looking for the proverbial better mousetrap.
Well it's OBVIOUSLY more efficient to just BUY startups instead of innovating yourself (that's not sarcastic).. the point is, Apple is not that innovative, and is probably not even in my top 50 "most innovative" list.
Apple just markets, repackages, and writes good code. Everything else they sell was/is made by some other company.
IBM, for example, obtained THE MOST patents of any company in 2004 (they've been in the top 10 for decades). Naturally, Apple latches onto them and offers to put the "Apple Stank" on their products, which they happily agree.
There's nothing wrong, with it, and obviously Apple has had a good eye for what products are good to market and what aren't. It's almost ingenious really--they compile ideas from all different sources and then resell them for huge margins.
In fact, without companies like Apple, there wouldn't be nearly the demand for the niche products like the iPod chip-set or the software they use. Just look at what happened to FreeBSD: that flavor practically exploded when Apple started pushing it along.
You can say Apple makes the best stuff out there, you can say they write good code and sell good products.. You can't say, however, that they're anywhere close to being "innovative." Apple are the engineers and marketers, they simply buy the innovators.
Are we to be impressed with Wintel who just now is moving to dual core after the whole ideology behind Netburst crumbled with Intels problems with clocking?
Are we? No, but the Wintel community yes, I guess. Apple will lose its strategic advantage to be the only one big personal computer manufacturer to offer an all dual processor pro desktop line for years.
Comments
Originally posted by onlooker
hmurchison you keep saying that PCI-E is a non issue for hardware developers, but all I see is PCI-E on Nvidia, and ATI's best cards. All anybody wants it for is graphics right now anyway. So why is that such a non issue? NForce4 Pro - side by side with a PowerMac G5 motherboard - Can you list the feature differences for both?
You missed his point. PCI-E is coming! Dual core is coming! Tiger is coming! But if some features are not here this month or even this year, it's not the end of the world. It's a competitive industry, and sometimes Apple will have leading features, sometimes not. We all wish Apple was always leading, so it's easy to get down on Apple when the innovations seem slow in coming.
Originally posted by hmurchison
...
Second I don't listen to PC users for hardware advice. Especially if they use Windows. I might listen to a PC user running Linux but no way do I take advice from the typical PC user that doesn't know shit.
...
fucking whiny Mac users. Turns my stomach.
I really appreciate all your writing
it is to my very own liking.
Companies utilize market hype all the time, they just don't upset you as much b/c they're not items of affectionate addiction; if you disagree then why are you arguing with me on AppleInsider.com.
The fact of the matter:
- powermac sales are low, there is a surplus of chipsets and procs to rid before NEXT GEN.
- Tiger has created hype, it run faster than Panther on current G5 chipsets.
- Apple Retail is doing well; I'm sure they're hoping to release alot of surplus G5s via ipod 'halo effect' & Tiger hype.
Moral of the story:
- enjoy gleeming eyes from the public (ie: in-store demos; stores seeing over a million visitors a week mind you) as Tiger re-invents the operating system.
- use it to sell current powermacs to 'naive window switchers'.
- announce 'NEXT GEN' powermac at WWDC -- "one month" AFTER FinalCut ships; that's not THAT long.
- sell even more powermacs.
i think something along those lines is a bit more accurate to their current position.
apple owns your face. quit gettin those panties in a wad.
Originally posted by hmurchison
The more time we spend yapping about dual core pentiums and opterons the less we are being productive. I'm guilty to. I wouldn't have damn near 5000 posts if I was out capturing more video and getting ready to build a little audio/video home studio. [/B]
Let me brag about my productivity as evidenced by my post count, then! (says the guy @slacker.com)
Can you ever see the day when the hardware just doesn't sell and the only option is to make OS X available to Intel/AMD platforms? Would Steve just let Apple cease trading rather than do that?
What, and I'm not saying this on purpose to troll, what if Microsoft pull a blinder with Longhorn and people begin switching BACK? What is the future of OS X? Any one know?
Originally posted by onlooker
hmurchison you keep saying that PCI-E is a non issue for hardware developers, but all I see is PCI-E on Nvidia, and ATI's best cards. All anybody wants it for is graphics right now anyway. So why is that such a non issue? NForce4 Pro - side by side with a PowerMac G5 motherboard - Can you list the feature differences for both?
Nah I'm not trying to trivialize it for the future. I think PCI Express isn't of much demonstrable value today other than niche markets. That could change for the future and what PCI Express does give you is future proofing. That nForce Pro board is VERY nice and is the superior of Apple's board. I'm happy thought because Apple had a majority of those specs almost a year ago. That kind of makes you have to wonder what they have cooking right now. Sadly whatever the next "big thing" is we aren't likely to see it until January 2006.
Originally posted by jwdawso
You missed his point. PCI-E is coming! Dual core is coming! Tiger is coming! But if some features are not here this month or even this year, it's not the end of the world. It's a competitive industry, and sometimes Apple will have leading features, sometimes not. We all wish Apple was always leading, so it's easy to get down on Apple when the innovations seem slow in coming.
You know thats probably the best post I've read.
I miss having a 6800 GPU and a super fast gaming rig, but now with OS X, I have some peace of mind, spending my time enjoying music, photos and movies. Things work well and it makes me happy to say my life is better for it.
If all that Apple shows this year for new hardware is better BTO options for GPU's, more ram and perhaps a dual core G4 'book...I'd be extremely happy.
All this great stuff already and Tiger coming up? What's not to like? Tiger makes this a great year on its own.
I'm sure the high end goodies will be very impressive nonetheless but they aren't targeted for me so its been a great year and its only April!
All I am sayinging is, how many times have we said "it's coming in the next update.....no no no.....the next update......no, now I know it will be in this update" and on and on. How many times have you really said "it is coming in the next update" and it actually arrive? Or, a truly, amazing breakthrough is announced from only Apple first that make the all around solutions that they currently offer work hand and hand, foot and foot as a monstrous workstation of a beast? I can name a couple, but not many.
I am not arguing that Apple know how to make killer solutions that are way ahead of their competition by a ten fold because lets face it, Apple is and always will be ahead of the game in innovation.
It is also interesting that while we are in idle grounds I will post a pessimistic view on where Apple is going hardware wise yet more than half of the AI crowd will boo at this or at that once new hardware is out because, they are simply not satisfied and feel Apple could do better.
Apple makes grade A + software, but why can't they have grade A + hardware to match? I am not asking for the fastest workstation on earth, but one that will really show their true potential with both their hardware and their software.
The future remains unseen, but based on the past we are moving ahead by taking a step or two back first.
Originally posted by M.O.S.T
iPod photo?
iPod mini ?
iMac G5 ?
and the PowerMac went to 2.5Ghz
There are faster machines than the iMac G5 and PMG52.5 in the PC world with more features for cheaper, and this was even the case when they were released.
I also think they should've added more drive bays in the PMG5
As for the iPods.. yesterday's chips with today's hard drives, is all I'm saying. Anyone could do what "Apple" has done (btw Apple did not come up with the iPod's technology).
Apple isn't even in the top 50 most-patenting companies, and is 92 in R&D spending--not much, considering they're almost, if not already, a fortune 100 company.
Apple specializes in repackaging and refining other people's technology. That's the iPod, the G5, OS X, the whole show. They do a great job of it, but it's not really innovative.. it's sadly more like what Bill Gates did with Winblows--repackage and resell Mac OS. The difference is, Apple usually pays for their tech.
Seeing a Dual 2.5Ghz Powermac G5 at almost a year pales in comparison. There just ain't much I can't do with today's Powermac.
The problem stems from having a diverse amount of views. Some people like to see immediate value for their money. Some people like to see future proof computers. Some want the cheapest price and so on.
I think we all tend to get bored before a refresh and its normal for Mac fans to get antsy. We've known about dual core AMD and Intel for months. But we don't know what's in the next Powermac and that's killing some of us.
I don't think the reality for Apple is sad at all. They've doubled their market cap and they have yet to display their hand regarding the next direction of iTunes. They are shipping the most complete OS X version ever this month. Apple doesn't ebb forward in updates they take big leaps.
Even if we only get 2.7Ghz at the top end that computer will be competitive enough to hold its own. The future likely has never been brighter. I know it sounds like i'm drinking the kool aid but I'm not. I use both platforms and the PC market is "ok" but I'm not all that crazy about the hardware over there either. Guess I'm just as impressed with PCI Express yet. There still isn't a killer app for Express that I'm just chomping to get at.
It'll come..but right now I'm seeing more excitement in the ancillary equipment that connects to the digital hub.
There are faster machines than the iMac G5 and PMG52.5 in the PC world with more features for cheaper, and this was even the case when they were released.
Do they run OS X?
I also think they should've added more drive bays in the PMG5
As for the iPods.. yesterday's chips with today's hard drives, is all I'm saying. Anyone could do what "Apple" has done (btw Apple did not come up with the iPod's technology)
But they didn't which is the most amazing thing. Why does Apple continously find that niche where their products make sense? I know PC companies "could" do it but they don't generally.
Apple isn't even in the top 50 most-patenting companies, and is 92 in R&D spending--not much, considering they're almost, if not already, a fortune 100 company
That's efficiency
Repackage or not doesn't really matter. I'm always looking for the proverbial better mousetrap.
Just because they can't run OS X, doesn't mean that x86/64 hardware isn't better, faster, and cheaper. It is, and this is a hard fact, not a relative point of view.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
You don't have to run OS X to be efficient. You can run Linux, any of the BSDs, or Solaris for that matter.
Just because they can't run OS X, doesn't mean that x86/64 hardware isn't better, faster, and cheaper. It is, and this is a hard fact, not a relative point of view.
Add shake is still faster in linux. Probably a hardware thing.
Just for a gander folks go peek at Apple.com and click on the "Hardware" and "Software" links. Apple manages a lot of products and frankly I'm impressed with their execution on most of it.
Are we to be impressed with Wintel who just now is moving to dual core after the whole ideology behind Netburst crumbled with Intels problems with clocking? Or Microsoft who's peddling OS X Tiger technologies a year removed in Longhorn.
The grass always looks greener folks. That proverb stands the test of time, a testament to its truth in many of us.
Relax..enjoy your Mac. Enjoy being only %3 in this case. Revel in your uniqueness.
Originally posted by cubedcompanies
The fact of the matter:
- powermac sales are low, there is a surplus of chipsets and procs to rid before NEXT GEN.
[/B]
So, in that case, why doesn't Apple REDUCE the price of the PowerMac line to get rid of these surplus chips? After all, we all know that in reality the G5 Towers are too expensive for what they offer in real-world performance - and before you say it, yes I understand that you have to pay a lot of cash to get an equally powerful Wintel/AMD box, but at least those machines are easily CPU upgradable, something you're not likely to see in the PMG5 anytime soon!
Originally posted by telekon
So, in that case, why doesn't Apple REDUCE the price of the PowerMac line to get rid of these surplus chips? After all, we all know that in reality the G5 Towers are too expensive for what they offer in real-world performance - and before you say it, yes I understand that you have to pay a lot of cash to get an equally powerful Wintel/AMD box, but at least those machines are easily CPU upgradable, something you're not likely to see in the PMG5 anytime soon!
I think it is just flogging dead horses -
this whole argue about apple prices
compared to the PC competition.
I don't want to repeat every argument, why this
battlefield is a timewaster big time.
But the "Wintel/AMD boxes are easily upgradable" and
"PCs at least can protect your investment to a larger degree
than apple computers" argument is utter trash.
In the real world (AV-studios, grafic, music, video,
film you name it) Apple computers are in use until
they die (after 8-10 years). They handle all tasks
as supposed to do.
Windows based systems are in use until the next
major software update is released. ("Shall i get this
upgrade processor for 500 bucks, or shall i get
an entire new system for 1000 bucks.")
Someone do the math.
Tech supporting costs, anyone?
Originally posted by hmurchison
That's efficiency
Repackage or not doesn't really matter. I'm always looking for the proverbial better mousetrap.
Well it's OBVIOUSLY more efficient to just BUY startups instead of innovating yourself (that's not sarcastic).. the point is, Apple is not that innovative, and is probably not even in my top 50 "most innovative" list.
Apple just markets, repackages, and writes good code. Everything else they sell was/is made by some other company.
IBM, for example, obtained THE MOST patents of any company in 2004 (they've been in the top 10 for decades). Naturally, Apple latches onto them and offers to put the "Apple Stank" on their products, which they happily agree.
There's nothing wrong, with it, and obviously Apple has had a good eye for what products are good to market and what aren't. It's almost ingenious really--they compile ideas from all different sources and then resell them for huge margins.
In fact, without companies like Apple, there wouldn't be nearly the demand for the niche products like the iPod chip-set or the software they use. Just look at what happened to FreeBSD: that flavor practically exploded when Apple started pushing it along.
You can say Apple makes the best stuff out there, you can say they write good code and sell good products.. You can't say, however, that they're anywhere close to being "innovative." Apple are the engineers and marketers, they simply buy the innovators.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Are we to be impressed with Wintel who just now is moving to dual core after the whole ideology behind Netburst crumbled with Intels problems with clocking?
Are we? No, but the Wintel community yes, I guess. Apple will lose its strategic advantage to be the only one big personal computer manufacturer to offer an all dual processor pro desktop line for years.