According to an article in The Register here triple layer HD-DVD might not be the format war winner it seems because not only will manufacturing lines need retooling, albeit allegedly only slightly, players will need a new head developed because current 2 layer focus techniques won't work.
BD otoh has been developed from day one with multiple layer support in mind, so may have the upper hand despite being 'the new guy'.
Personally I'd like to see BD win simply because the DVD Forum seems to have lost it's way.
So despite intimations of heavy-petting, Sony and Toshiba are proving that when it comes to the next generation of high-definition, high-capacity discs, love is a battlefield. Toshiba wants us to know that it?s every woman, flaunting a new version of its HD DVD format that can store 45GB on a triple-layer disc, getting it up closer to the capacity of Sony?s dual-layer Blu-ray discs. Will this independent company trying hard to make it a man?s world finally find love in arms of Sony, unifying the format and averting a high-definition Bennifer-class scandal? We?re hoping for a Hollywood power couple?but what about the children?
It doesn't really matter that BD-ROM or HD-DVD have 50GB DL or 45GB TL for a vast majority of movies.
These upper capacity discs would be used for series or multiple movies. What Hollywood really wanted was a single layer disc with no layer change issues at a cheap price. Even if 45GB/50GB discs are more to manufacture that shouldn't be too much of a problem because a 45GB disc would be used for in lieu of what takes multiple DVDs today.
It's not that HD-DVD is keeping us in the dark ages. It's just a more appropriate bridge for companies like Cinram and Memory Tech that have substantial investments in DVD production gear.
I like BD-ROM but until I see how durable durbis is in preventing scratches I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.
I say let both formats come and eventually one may win. Neither format prevents me from viewing HD content the way I want to along with lossless audio. All is good for the AV lover.
Then Blu-Ray is still the winner with their 25GB single layer disc while HD-DVD falls far short with only 15GB. While MPEG-4 codecs are more efficient than MPEG-2 there are serious doubts that 15GB will be enough for your average length movie. Remember that broadcast HDTV is woefully inadequate as far as quality goes due to low bitrates and other constraints. Even with MPEG-4 they will need a high bitrate if we are to have 1080p content worthy of the HD name. Then there are extras, extended cuts, interactive materials, etc. to be added. Seems to me that even if Blu-Ray is more expensive at first glance, HD-DVD will end up costing more in the long run if multiple layers and/or multiple discs are needed. I don't think the penny pinchers think about such things though. If it doesn't effect them today it is of no concern. Tomorrow doesn't exist for them.
1984. I totally agree. Actually, to my disliking I thought HD-DVD had already won the minds of too many to loose, but much to my liking It appears that Blue Ray may see a resurgence after all. I'm hoping these companies see the benefits of the long term pay out over the short term "get HD to market" ploy.
I say spend the extra cash on Blue Ray manufacturing now, and regain it all, (and then some) back in a few years.
1984. I totally agree. Actually, to my disliking I thought HD-DVD had already won the minds of too many to loose, but much to my liking It appears that Blue Ray may see a resurgence after all. I'm hoping these companies see the benefits of the long term pay out over the short term "get HD to market" ploy.
I say spend the extra cash on Blue Ray manufacturing now, and regain it all, (and then some) back in a few years.
Exactly. Spending more now to bring manufacturing lines up to date will pay off in the long run. Sticking with outdated technology in order to save money in the near term will always come back to haunt you.
No one will ever need more than 750MB. [CD-R]
No one will ever need more than 8.5GB. [DVD-R]
No one will ever need more than 45GB. [HD-DVD]
I see a pattern developing. How about you? Lets have a format that is as future-proof as possible.
There comes a point where you just have to "freeze" your plans and look at the best options today. No one knows how much either format is going to cost but spec wise both formats are easily built to support the latest content at any HD resolution.
We'll find out which format is truly cheaper in due time.
Did you know that there is a DVD-18 format? It is dual layer, double sided. Ever seen one? Nope.
Why not? Its just not needed for SDTV, 9gb is enough, and its cheaper.
Which format is going to win?
The one with the cheapest single sided discs that can fit an HDTV movie on them. I think both formats meet the size requirements, now it is just a question of which one is going to be cheaper to produce. Dont forget to factor in capital investment for production machinery. If one format can be produced with minimal investment ( HD-DVD ) then it is going to win because the manufacturers will be profitable from day one. Not only that, it will be attractive to smaller manufacturers, which means HD-DVD will get wider distribution faster.
Yup, TDK has pushed Blu-Ray to 100GB and it's recordable too. I think people here tend to forget about recording. Don't you want to record HDTV content? I sure do. Recording has always been something of an aftethought with HD-DVD. I could probably fit a whole season of Battlestar Galactica on one of these 100GB Blu-Ray discs... but will they let me? And so begins the DRM paranoia.
Anyway, Matsushita, manufacturer of just about every single optical drive in the known universe, is saying that they believe the HD DVD wars are already one [sic, Screed: won?] and that Blu-Ray is the clear victor. Toshiba must now come and bow to the Blu-Ray Council and commit ritual seppaku seppuku.
Whoopsie, somebody just threw Toshi out of the sandbox.
HD-DVD is the only format with pre-announced titles.
HD-DVD is the only format with player pricing even suggested($1k)
HD-DVD is the only format that provides format compatibility with Red Laser DVD.
If you want to watch HD movies it's becoming abundantly clear that HD-DVD is going to be cheaper than Blu-Ray. That's all I need...movie playback. I don't give a freakin' rats arse about 100GB Blu-Ray. Hard drive density is going up and up. Online storage is going up and broadband speeds are going up. Anything that you can record to disc is going eventually be storable online. Meaning I have access wherever I go. Optical discs are cheap storage that is portable but it doesn't beat having your files accessible online.
HD-DVD is the only format with pre-announced titles.
HD-DVD is the only format with player pricing even suggested($1k)
HD-DVD is the only format that provides format compatibility with Red Laser DVD.
Blu-ray is going in the PS3, rumored price $499 - due out early next year.
Sony will sell 100,000,000 PS3s - they should easily have 90% of the high-def DVD player market because they will be selling the units at a loss, and they don't have to pay royalties to themselves.
Compatibility with red laser DVDs is easy, many high-end DVD players have seperate lasers for CD and DVD.
Why? We have Toshiba and a couple of movie companies on one side and almost the entire industry of optical drive makers on the other.
LOL..do you honestly think that an OEM is going to say.
"I'm sorry..I can't make this drive for you because we're in the Blu-Ray camp"
Nada. Money talks...BS walks. There are very few excusive deals for either camp is what I'm hearing. Content is king. HD-DVD has Universal, WB, Paramount and New Line. That's a formidable group of studios folks that encompass some big hits( Lord of the Rings anyone).
How did Dell get larger than IBM or HP?
How did Walmart become the worlds largest retail chain?
How did Microsoft become the biggest OS vendor?
Price folks! We have no official word on how much Blu-Ray will be upon launch. And we only have conjecture about PS3 pricing that won't be out for a year. That's a pretty precarious position to be in for MatSHITshita to be talking victory.
I'll buy into both but it rankles me that I'm being told that Blu-Ray is superior but not being shown.
A leetle bit off (by a decimal point at least), but your point is still valid. Many attribute the PS2 has being the first DVD player in people's homes and boosting DVD sales. Early predictions say the PS3 will also spur HD monitor sales.
Reportedly the talks are dead, the Xbox360 will stay retro and the PS3 is still a year off. We shall see.
As for the HD DVD titles: pft. I give them as much rope as the Divx DVD format. It might succeed, it might not. Force of corporate will can be trumped by consumer torpidity. They [HD DVD group] run the risk by debuting earlier with only a small subset of consumers having the setup to get the whizzy-neat resolution.
LOL..do you honestly think that an OEM is going to say.
They are more than OEMs. I'm not talking about computer drives here, but the players in the shops where the Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Samsung, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi and Sharp and others all will be pushing BD players.
I would like to see a movie company choosing not to release BD movies, when almost every big name player will be a BD player.
Quote:
Originally posted by hmurchison
Nada. Money talks...BS walks. There are very few excusive deals for either camp is what I'm hearing. Content is king. HD-DVD has Universal, WB, Paramount and New Line. That's a formidable group of studios folks that encompass some big hits( Lord of the Rings anyone).
Comments
BD otoh has been developed from day one with multiple layer support in mind, so may have the upper hand despite being 'the new guy'.
Personally I'd like to see BD win simply because the DVD Forum seems to have lost it's way.
So despite intimations of heavy-petting, Sony and Toshiba are proving that when it comes to the next generation of high-definition, high-capacity discs, love is a battlefield. Toshiba wants us to know that it?s every woman, flaunting a new version of its HD DVD format that can store 45GB on a triple-layer disc, getting it up closer to the capacity of Sony?s dual-layer Blu-ray discs. Will this independent company trying hard to make it a man?s world finally find love in arms of Sony, unifying the format and averting a high-definition Bennifer-class scandal? We?re hoping for a Hollywood power couple?but what about the children?
These upper capacity discs would be used for series or multiple movies. What Hollywood really wanted was a single layer disc with no layer change issues at a cheap price. Even if 45GB/50GB discs are more to manufacture that shouldn't be too much of a problem because a 45GB disc would be used for in lieu of what takes multiple DVDs today.
It's not that HD-DVD is keeping us in the dark ages. It's just a more appropriate bridge for companies like Cinram and Memory Tech that have substantial investments in DVD production gear.
I like BD-ROM but until I see how durable durbis is in preventing scratches I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.
I say let both formats come and eventually one may win. Neither format prevents me from viewing HD content the way I want to along with lossless audio. All is good for the AV lover.
I say spend the extra cash on Blue Ray manufacturing now, and regain it all, (and then some) back in a few years.
Originally posted by onlooker
1984. I totally agree. Actually, to my disliking I thought HD-DVD had already won the minds of too many to loose, but much to my liking It appears that Blue Ray may see a resurgence after all. I'm hoping these companies see the benefits of the long term pay out over the short term "get HD to market" ploy.
I say spend the extra cash on Blue Ray manufacturing now, and regain it all, (and then some) back in a few years.
Exactly. Spending more now to bring manufacturing lines up to date will pay off in the long run. Sticking with outdated technology in order to save money in the near term will always come back to haunt you.
No one will ever need more than 750MB. [CD-R]
No one will ever need more than 8.5GB. [DVD-R]
No one will ever need more than 45GB. [HD-DVD]
I see a pattern developing. How about you? Lets have a format that is as future-proof as possible.
I see a pattern developing. How about you? Lets have a format that is as future-proof as possible
Then you may as well wait for HVD which has 200GB discs that are faster now
There comes a point where you just have to "freeze" your plans and look at the best options today. No one knows how much either format is going to cost but spec wise both formats are easily built to support the latest content at any HD resolution.
We'll find out which format is truly cheaper in due time.
Did you know that there is a DVD-18 format? It is dual layer, double sided. Ever seen one? Nope.
Why not? Its just not needed for SDTV, 9gb is enough, and its cheaper.
Which format is going to win?
The one with the cheapest single sided discs that can fit an HDTV movie on them. I think both formats meet the size requirements, now it is just a question of which one is going to be cheaper to produce. Dont forget to factor in capital investment for production machinery. If one format can be produced with minimal investment ( HD-DVD ) then it is going to win because the manufacturers will be profitable from day one. Not only that, it will be attractive to smaller manufacturers, which means HD-DVD will get wider distribution faster.
Originally posted by mmmpie
Future proofing really doesnt matter.
Did you know that there is a DVD-18 format?
Yep.
Originally posted by mmmpie
It is dual layer, double sided.
I know.
Originally posted by mmmpie
Ever seen one?
Yep.
Originally posted by mmmpie
Nope.
I said Yep.
Schindler's List and a couple of other DVDs I have are DVD18.
http://www.idgnews.net/intl/internat...F?OpenDocument
And the war continues...
Anyway, Matsushita, manufacturer of just about every single optical drive in the known universe, is saying that they believe the HD DVD wars are already one [sic, Screed: won?] and that Blu-Ray is the clear victor. Toshiba must now come and bow to the Blu-Ray Council and commit ritual seppaku seppuku.
Whoopsie, somebody just threw Toshi out of the sandbox.
Fact:
HD-DVD is the only format with pre-announced titles.
HD-DVD is the only format with player pricing even suggested($1k)
HD-DVD is the only format that provides format compatibility with Red Laser DVD.
If you want to watch HD movies it's becoming abundantly clear that HD-DVD is going to be cheaper than Blu-Ray. That's all I need...movie playback. I don't give a freakin' rats arse about 100GB Blu-Ray. Hard drive density is going up and up. Online storage is going up and broadband speeds are going up. Anything that you can record to disc is going eventually be storable online. Meaning I have access wherever I go. Optical discs are cheap storage that is portable but it doesn't beat having your files accessible online.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Matshushita have lost their minds.
Why? We have Toshiba and a couple of movie companies on one side and almost the entire industry of optical drive makers on the other.
HD-DVD is the only format with pre-announced titles.
HD-DVD is the only format with player pricing even suggested($1k)
HD-DVD is the only format that provides format compatibility with Red Laser DVD.
Blu-ray is going in the PS3, rumored price $499 - due out early next year.
Sony will sell 100,000,000 PS3s - they should easily have 90% of the high-def DVD player market because they will be selling the units at a loss, and they don't have to pay royalties to themselves.
Compatibility with red laser DVDs is easy, many high-end DVD players have seperate lasers for CD and DVD.
Originally posted by JLL
Why? We have Toshiba and a couple of movie companies on one side and almost the entire industry of optical drive makers on the other.
LOL..do you honestly think that an OEM is going to say.
"I'm sorry..I can't make this drive for you because we're in the Blu-Ray camp"
Nada. Money talks...BS walks. There are very few excusive deals for either camp is what I'm hearing. Content is king. HD-DVD has Universal, WB, Paramount and New Line. That's a formidable group of studios folks that encompass some big hits( Lord of the Rings anyone).
How did Dell get larger than IBM or HP?
How did Walmart become the worlds largest retail chain?
How did Microsoft become the biggest OS vendor?
Price folks! We have no official word on how much Blu-Ray will be upon launch. And we only have conjecture about PS3 pricing that won't be out for a year. That's a pretty precarious position to be in for MatSHITshita to be talking victory.
I'll buy into both but it rankles me that I'm being told that Blu-Ray is superior but not being shown.
Sony will sell 100,000,000 PS3s ...
A leetle bit off (by a decimal point at least), but your point is still valid. Many attribute the PS2 has being the first DVD player in people's homes and boosting DVD sales. Early predictions say the PS3 will also spur HD monitor sales.
Reportedly the talks are dead, the Xbox360 will stay retro and the PS3 is still a year off. We shall see.
As for the HD DVD titles: pft. I give them as much rope as the Divx DVD format. It might succeed, it might not. Force of corporate will can be trumped by consumer torpidity. They [HD DVD group] run the risk by debuting earlier with only a small subset of consumers having the setup to get the whizzy-neat resolution.
A leetle bit off (by a decimal point at least)
They sold 80 million PS2s, and the market is growing (which is where I got my estimate of 100M PS3s).
Microsoft will add blu-ray later (they said that they would incorporate the winner of the format war). I don't see how blu-ray can lose.
Originally posted by hmurchison
LOL..do you honestly think that an OEM is going to say.
They are more than OEMs. I'm not talking about computer drives here, but the players in the shops where the Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Samsung, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi and Sharp and others all will be pushing BD players.
I would like to see a movie company choosing not to release BD movies, when almost every big name player will be a BD player.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Nada. Money talks...BS walks. There are very few excusive deals for either camp is what I'm hearing. Content is king. HD-DVD has Universal, WB, Paramount and New Line. That's a formidable group of studios folks that encompass some big hits( Lord of the Rings anyone).
And the BD camp has Star Wars III among others.
They sold 80 million PS2s, and the market is growing (which is where I got my estimate of 100M PS3s).
Microsoft will add blu-ray later (they said that they would incorporate the winner of the format war). I don't see how blu-ray can lose.
[Screed googles]
Where the hell have I been!?
Consider me corrected.