I like BD-ROM but until I see how durable durbis is in preventing scratches I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.
"Durbis"? I take it you're talking about whatever tech is used to make the surface of a BD more durable? Google didn't turn anything up for this word, and I'm failing to guess what it might be a typo for, if it is indeed a typo.
At any rate, I'm surprised I don't hear the question of durability and reliability vis-à-vis surface dust mentioned more.
The format debate has typically been couched in terms of cost advantages for HD-DVD vs. higher capacity for Blu-ray. HD-DVDs cost advantages are arguably short-term benefits -- if Blu-ray catches on, disc manufacturing costs will almost certainly drop over time, as would the costs for the trickier optical assemblies needed to make an SD DVD backward compatible player.
But higher durability and reliability for HD-DVD over Blu-ray could be a long-term HD-DVD advantage. From what I've read about Blu-ray, the data layers are precariously close to the disc's surface, not only putting the data at higher risk from physical damage, but making it harder for a player's optics to "see around" surface dust, which would either reduce reliability or require burning up some of Blu-ray's higher data capacity for data redundancy.
Knowing what I know now (which is admittedly limited), my inclination is to root for HD-DVD. As long as HD-DVD discs have enough capacity for high-quality HD movies (which they do) with room to spare for extras, nebulous future uses for Blu-ray's extra data capacity don't appeal to me as much as having cheaper discs and cheaper backward-compatible players in the short term, and discs that are more reliable and durable in the long term.
Consider that for all of the worries about being "tied down" to HD-DVD's more limited data capacity, there are still plenty of current applications for which the venerable old 650-MB CD is more than adequate, over 20 years after that format's inception. For high capacity data back-up and for interactive access to extremely large data sets there are probably better technologies down the road than optical discs anyway.
Don't underestimate the importance of Matsushita. They not only sell as Panasonic and Technics, they build parts for all the major players and supply disc plant hardware. They've been developing blue laser for DVD for 5 years.
Content is vital, but as has been mentioned you need hardware to play it on. Next spring when PS3 lands there will suddenly be 50 million BD consumers, and while HD-DVD players will be around only bleeding-edge addicts will spend $1000+ on one, not to mention the high costs of HD TVs.
I think the format war is far from over, but Star Wars and PS3 are pretty big battles.
As for the HD DVD titles: pft. I give them as much rope as the Divx DVD format. It might succeed, it might not. Force of corporate will can be trumped by consumer torpidity. They [HD DVD group] run the risk by debuting earlier with only a small subset of consumers having the setup to get the whizzy-neat resolution.
HD-DVD is far from Divx. They have the name that is synon with DVD that people will feel comfortable about. Right now it looks like they can price discs low because of the similar file formatting and they have the right codecs. Blu-Ray is a bunch of compromises to reach some level of superiority. I'm not happy with a .1mm protection layer until I see a disc with Durabis coating and ascertain how protective that coating really is.
Quote:
Originally posted by JLL
They are more than OEMs. I'm not talking about computer drives here, but the players in the shops where the Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Samsung, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi and Sharp and others all will be pushing BD players.
I would like to see a movie company choosing not to release BD movies, when almost every big name player will be a BD player.
And the BD camp has Star Wars III among others.
Yes BD has great movies as well. But this just leads to my point. Neither format has the undeniable superiority over the other. Steve Ballmer already stated that MS won't rule out coming out with a HD drive in a future Xbox 360. They could go BD or HD-DVD. Who knows.
Excellent post as well. I'm not a Blu-Ray hater in fact I'm looking forward to getting a PS3. However there is so much misinformation and hype. Initially I thought that Blu-Ray would be an ideal storage for backups in computer environments but the .1mm protection layer and slow speed will negate most companies of 25 computers or more from utilizing it.
I wish we had a unified format but the stakes are high and Toshiba/NEC and Sony/BDA won't budge.
Both formats have their + and - and I'm willing to see how they fare in the marketplace even if it slows HDTV adoption. Both formats could be a niche format ala Laserdisc. I think its folly to think the arc for BD/HD-DVD will follow the same path as DVD.
With DVD you have a tech that was superior to broadcast TV and enabled random access versus linear tape.
BD/HD-DVD offer no such advantages. HD broadcasts have the same resolution(albeit more compression in some areas) and we have random access already with DVD. I look for both formats to struggle for a while. This could hurt BD because if the formats aren't taking off a HD-DVD fab can convert the production line to pressing DVD-9 whilst the BD fab is stuck.
Don't underestimate the importance of Matsushita. They not only sell as Panasonic and Technics, they build parts for all the major players and supply disc plant hardware. They've been developing blue laser for DVD for 5 years.
Content is vital, but as has been mentioned you need hardware to play it on. Next spring when PS3 lands there will suddenly be 50 million BD consumers, and while HD-DVD players will be around only bleeding-edge addicts will spend $1000+ on one, not to mention the high costs of HD TVs.
I think the format war is far from over, but Star Wars and PS3 are pretty big battles.
People will be buying HD-DVD players and discs this Christmas. I'm not even trying to think about middle next year when PS3s hit because that's still too far off. And it'll take some time to ramp up to $50 million users at $499. Folks here in North America aren't that rich. I don't know why you assume that a BD player can be made for $499 whilst a HD-DVD cannot. Sony hasn't announced any official pricing on anything that will play the next gen BD-ROM. Rather disconcerting I might add.
All in all it's pretty frustration the lack of information from both camps.
HD-DVD is the only format with pre-announced titles.
HD-DVD is the only format with player pricing even suggested($1k)
HD-DVD is the only format that provides format compatibility with Red Laser DVD.
Gee, an arbitratry list of titles with no details or release dates mentioned. Only $1000 for a player is a selling point? And what's this bunk about DVD compatability? Both formats use blue lasers and require a blue/red combo head for backwards compatability. Oh, and most people do care about storage capacity. We all know you don't since you shoot down this advantage every chance you get, claiming that it is meaningless. To you maybe. I don't know how you can store and access hundreds or thousands of Gigabytes online. It would take me 24 hours to download just one movie over broadband. People are going to want to record HD content just as they do SD content with a VCR or PVR. Storage capacity is very important here. Hard drive capacity is almost at a standstill aside from 1" and 1.8" drives. At this rate 3.5" drives with a 1TB capacity are a few years away.
Gee, an arbitratry list of titles with no details or release dates mentioned. Only $1000 for a player is a selling point?
My source of frustration is that Sony hasn't even done the above yet they are constantly being proclaimed the winner. I just crave additional information about BD-ROM that's all.
While both formats require Blue and Red lasers BD players have the head too close to the disc so it'll undoubtedly be more expensive. HD-DVD has a very similar numerical aperture so both lasers can use the same diode. Cheaper.
I wouldn't say that I'm anti-storage but I've heard people talk as if BD is going to turn into a viable backup medium. This just isn't going to happen. It'll be cool for you and I to back up our data too. However SMB and Fortune 1000 won't look at optical storage and that's where the big money is.
Quote:
At this rate 3.5" drives with a 1TB capacity are a few years away
I'd say they are probably a couple of years away. Currently we're at 133GB per platter. I look for that to rise to 200GB per platter in 18-24 months. Today's drives are usually 3 platters for cost reasons but they could easily go 5 platters and offer 665 today and 1TB tomorrow.
Honestly I don't mean to denigrate Blu-Ray but if there are two formats I want them to compete for my business. Sony's doing good marketing their product but failing in preparing the consumer for what the costs and availability of movies will be during launch. This irks me.
Of particular interest you may want to hightlight:
The big splash, of course, was the latest news on HD DVD. Despite ongoing discussions regarding a possible consolidation of the warring HD DVD and Blu-ray camps, Toshiba is pushing ahead. They confirmed their plans to have an HD DVD player on the market before the end of the year (about $1000), together with a substantial number of discs from several studios. An HD DVD recorder is unlikely before 2007. The final HD DVD specification is nearly complete, with no major disagreements remaining that might slow up the schedule (including the all-important Digital Rights Management). For those hoping for 1080p from HD DVD, don't hold your breath?Toshiba confirmed that the data is recorded on HD DVD in 1080i, and there are no plans to change that. The players have already been designed for 1080i discs, and it would take a redesign to enable them to handle 1080p discs, even if there were plans to produce them.
All I can say is, I'll wait for the PS3 with a Blu-Ray drive so that I may watch HD movies in 1080p. I would call this a superiority over HD-DVD. And as far as an earlier post regarding HD-DVD having some sort of durability advantage,...I don't see one. From what I've read, Durabis, the technology developed by TDK exclusively for Blu-Ray drives will provide a huge amount of durability. It has been said before, that the durability is so good in fact that Blu-Ray backers have demonstrated on many occasions rubbing a Blu-Ray disc into a sand-dirt mixture, and then writing on the disc with a Sharpe, wiping the disc off, and then having the movie on the disc play without a hitch. Actually, on previous posts, I've mentioned this as an actual advantage over HD-DVD. As I've yet to hear of any similar technology in the HD-DVD camp.
As far as the PRICE, PRICE, PRICE, mantra,...I've read that Blu-Ray discs will not cost any more than the cost to produce current DVD's. Actually, I've read it may be even less expensive as a good portion of Blu-Ray discs are made from paper, saving on the cost of plastic. In addition, from all the articles I've read, we can expect Blu-Ray to ship titles at the current going rate of DVDs. So I don't know where people get the misinformation that we will be paying a premium by going to Blu-Ray.
I'm going to go out in a limb right now and post something that some of you may consider a bit controversial. But I think the writing is on the wall. I think the format war is over before it's even begun, and the Toshiba/HD-DVD camp is toast.
Why? You know how many PlayStation 2 systems Sony's sold since that unit's launch? 87 million. Let me repeat that. 87 million. 1.5 million were sold in the PS2's first month of availability alone.
Now, let me follow this up by noting that Microsoft's newly announced Xbox 360 system is going to run on existing DVD media (for games and movies), but will not support HD-DVD format discs.
Sony has the two biggest PC manufacturers in the world, Dell and HP, on their side, along with Apple, Hitachi, LG, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Royal Philips, Samsung, Sharp and Thompson. Plus they've 20th Century Fox, Disney, Sony Pictures (Columbia TriStar) and now MGM in their camp... AND they've got the PS3 on the way.
Toshiba has Microsoft in their camp, sort of. On the hardware front, they have NEC, Sanyo and Memory-Tech. And in Hollywood, they've got Warner, New Line, Paramount and Universal.
Think about that. If I'm a high-end, home theater-phile, early adopter type, am I going to be jonesing to get my hands on a Sanyo or Toshiba HD-DVD player, or a Sony or Pioneer Blu-ray Disc player (or a PS3)? Are you kidding me?
This thing is over. It's done. Toshiba and Warner Bros. just haven't figured it out yet.
Yeah, I don't think too many people would be keen on spending $1000 for a Sanyo or Toshiba. Probably not too many would spend $1000 period, early adopters or not. A $495 PS3 on the other hand? Not only will it play HD content but games as well at hald the price. Not having it out by Christmas is bad but I guess the PSP sold well despite the odd release schedule.
The big splash, of course, was the latest news on HD DVD. Despite ongoing discussions regarding a possible consolidation of the warring HD DVD and Blu-ray camps, Toshiba is pushing ahead. They confirmed their plans to have an HD DVD player on the market before the end of the year (about $1000), together with a substantial number of discs from several studios. An HD DVD recorder is unlikely before 2007. The final HD DVD specification is nearly complete, with no major disagreements remaining that might slow up the schedule (including the all-important Digital Rights Management). For those hoping for 1080p from HD DVD, don't hold your breath?Toshiba confirmed that the data is recorded on HD DVD in 1080i, and there are no plans to change that. The players have already been designed for 1080i discs, and it would take a redesign to enable them to handle 1080p discs, even if there were plans to produce them.[/B]
Geez, I didn't even know about the 1080i limitation though recording has never been a priority with the HD-DVD camp so that's no surprise. How lame. Uh, why is HD-DVD even being discussed anymore? I'm actually developing a deep passionate hatred for the format now. It's so Microsoft. Egh.
Yeah I've heard about all the hype about Durabis but I gotta see if myself. HD-DVD doesn't need it because its protection layer is 6x thicker.
1080i recording isn't bad at all in fact it's smart because you can design the player with a built in de-interlacer that'll convert it to 1080p lickety split.
BD-ROM may be priced close to HD-DVD but we don't know because the BDA is mums the word on pricing. Sony hasn't stated anything substantive about BD-ROM pricing. For HD-DVD both Memory-Tech and I think Cinram have gone on record as stating that HD-DVDs wouldn't be hard to stamp even at 3 layers.
Yeah I've heard about all the hype about Durabis but I gotta see if myself. HD-DVD doesn't need it because its protection layer is 6x thicker.
1080i recording isn't bad at all in fact it's smart because you can design the player with a built in de-interlacer that'll convert it to 1080p lickety split.
BD-ROM may be priced close to HD-DVD but we don't know because the BDA is mums the word on pricing. Sony hasn't stated anything substantive about BD-ROM pricing. For HD-DVD both Memory-Tech and I think Cinram have gone on record as stating that HD-DVDs wouldn't be hard to stamp even at 3 layers.
The protective layer of a DVD is 6x too and good luck when they get scratched. Ever rent a DVD from Blockbuster? An HD-DVD would be worse with the more tightly packed data. In reality all discs need a protective coating. I wish CDs and DVDs came in a protective caddy actually.
No 1080i on HD-DVD period. It's not just recording. There will be no prerecorded movies available in 1080i on HD-DVD apparently. That blows.
I haven't seen pricing on recordable HD-DVD media either but recording is nothing but a faint blip on the radar for the HD-DVD camp.
OK, I double checked. All content that is sourced in 1080p will be encoded as 1080p. I have no idea how Toshiba could have said what was quoted. Maybe it was mistraslated. As discussed before, PC based decoders should also output in 1080p but what CE equipment does (from either camp) is anyone's guess.
Amir
I believe Amir works for Microsoft as he's very knowledgable about Windows Media. Man I can't wait to get my Playstation3 really. I just hope both units drop to $500 quickly. I have to have my movies.
1080i recording isn't bad at all in fact it's smart because you can design the player with a built in de-interlacer that'll convert it to 1080p lickety split.
You can't polish a turd. That is like saying "It only has a 100 hp 4 cyl engine, but you can just bolt on an aftermarket turbocharger and it will be just like a V8".
You can't polish a turd. That is like saying "It only has a 100 hp 4 cyl engine, but you can just bolt on an aftermarket turbocharger and it will be just like a V8".
Yes but 1080i isn't a turd. You will only see 1080i used at 50 or 60 frames per second thus you can deinterlace these signals quite easily to 25 or 30 frame 1080p. However It's doubtful that the information from that link was correct in the first place but even if it was I wouldn't worry at all.
You can't polish a turd. That is like saying "It only has a 100 hp 4 cyl engine, but you can just bolt on an aftermarket turbocharger and it will be just like a V8".
Toshiba has. No, it's more like grafting on updates to a 10-year old OS instead of writing a new one from scratch. Taking the easy route seems to be the mantra here.
"Does the average person want technology for the sake of technology?"
I think the answer is far closer to:
Consumers want products that do what they state they will do and an acceptable level of quality and for a great price.
Blu-Ray is a tech geeks wet dream but HD-DVD should meet every requirement of the typical consumer.
It's not technology for the sake of technology though. Higher capacity, faster speeds and maybe 1080p support are all things consumers can benefit from. They just don't know it yet because HDTV is still in its infancy. When recording HD content becomes popular (and it will) people will crave more and more capacity. It doesn't make sense to come out with HD-DVD now only to replace it five years from now with something else. Toshiba even admitted that HD-DVD is an interim solution. Crazy.
If we took the view of the "typical consumer" we should all be using Windows because it's "good enough" and should be hanging out at WindowsInsider, right?
Cheaper always wins. That's why ultimately Blu-Ray will lose the battle and Toshiba/NEC both know this. History is not on Sony's side.
Bold statement, and yet how untrue. Cheaper does not always win. Case in point,...the iPod. The iPod was KNOWN and still is known to be a lot more expensive than its music playing counterparts. The result, the iPod has like 70% marketshare. Another example, Coca-Cola and Pepsi, they are a lot more in terms of your Wal-Mart/Local Store brand based soda; however, they seem to claim about 90% of the soda market. Need I go on? As, I can give you example after example.
I predict the opposite. Toshiba will lose, and they know it. And, that is precisely why they approached the BDA about unification talks. They understand quite well that they are not just matched up against Sony as you would like individuals to believe (as it seems you have something against Sony) but against 125+ companies that include Hollywood studios, Game studios, and almost every electronic consumer company that you can think of. Couple that with the fact that the Playstation 3 will be thrown into a plethora of homes well under the $1,000 asking price of an HD-DVD player, and you get the picture...this "war" is as good as done before it has even begun.
As far as your "history" argument, again we're not just talking about Sony. Apple, Dell, HP, Samsung, Philips, Pioneer, Panasonic, etc. are also in this recent debacle. Moreover, I'm sure if you'd like to isolate 1 of the 125+ companies like Sony, they most assuredly have learned from past mistakes--aka Beta. Much like Apple has leared from not playing well with others, thus seeing their rise in marketshare. Furthermore, Sony is already poised with their own version of a Trojan Horse, analogous to Apple's iTunes on the Windows PC. It's called the Playstation 3. Considering they have over 87 million PS 2 consoles in the home over the world and expect to sell over that amount with the PS3 iteration,...you get my point. The household penetration is already there. It is not a matter of if Blu-Ray will get into peoples homes, it is a matter of when--Spring 2006 (the official death of the HD-DVD format).
Comments
Originally posted by hmurchison
I like BD-ROM but until I see how durable durbis is in preventing scratches I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.
"Durbis"? I take it you're talking about whatever tech is used to make the surface of a BD more durable? Google didn't turn anything up for this word, and I'm failing to guess what it might be a typo for, if it is indeed a typo.
At any rate, I'm surprised I don't hear the question of durability and reliability vis-à-vis surface dust mentioned more.
The format debate has typically been couched in terms of cost advantages for HD-DVD vs. higher capacity for Blu-ray. HD-DVDs cost advantages are arguably short-term benefits -- if Blu-ray catches on, disc manufacturing costs will almost certainly drop over time, as would the costs for the trickier optical assemblies needed to make an SD DVD backward compatible player.
But higher durability and reliability for HD-DVD over Blu-ray could be a long-term HD-DVD advantage. From what I've read about Blu-ray, the data layers are precariously close to the disc's surface, not only putting the data at higher risk from physical damage, but making it harder for a player's optics to "see around" surface dust, which would either reduce reliability or require burning up some of Blu-ray's higher data capacity for data redundancy.
Knowing what I know now (which is admittedly limited), my inclination is to root for HD-DVD. As long as HD-DVD discs have enough capacity for high-quality HD movies (which they do) with room to spare for extras, nebulous future uses for Blu-ray's extra data capacity don't appeal to me as much as having cheaper discs and cheaper backward-compatible players in the short term, and discs that are more reliable and durable in the long term.
Consider that for all of the worries about being "tied down" to HD-DVD's more limited data capacity, there are still plenty of current applications for which the venerable old 650-MB CD is more than adequate, over 20 years after that format's inception. For high capacity data back-up and for interactive access to extremely large data sets there are probably better technologies down the road than optical discs anyway.
Content is vital, but as has been mentioned you need hardware to play it on. Next spring when PS3 lands there will suddenly be 50 million BD consumers, and while HD-DVD players will be around only bleeding-edge addicts will spend $1000+ on one, not to mention the high costs of HD TVs.
I think the format war is far from over, but Star Wars and PS3 are pretty big battles.
As for the HD DVD titles: pft. I give them as much rope as the Divx DVD format. It might succeed, it might not. Force of corporate will can be trumped by consumer torpidity. They [HD DVD group] run the risk by debuting earlier with only a small subset of consumers having the setup to get the whizzy-neat resolution.
HD-DVD is far from Divx. They have the name that is synon with DVD that people will feel comfortable about. Right now it looks like they can price discs low because of the similar file formatting and they have the right codecs. Blu-Ray is a bunch of compromises to reach some level of superiority. I'm not happy with a .1mm protection layer until I see a disc with Durabis coating and ascertain how protective that coating really is.
Originally posted by JLL
They are more than OEMs. I'm not talking about computer drives here, but the players in the shops where the Philips, Pioneer, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Samsung, Hitachi, LG, Mitsubishi and Sharp and others all will be pushing BD players.
I would like to see a movie company choosing not to release BD movies, when almost every big name player will be a BD player.
And the BD camp has Star Wars III among others.
Yes BD has great movies as well. But this just leads to my point. Neither format has the undeniable superiority over the other. Steve Ballmer already stated that MS won't rule out coming out with a HD drive in a future Xbox 360. They could go BD or HD-DVD. Who knows.
Shetline
Sorry I misspelled. It's
Durabis
Excellent post as well. I'm not a Blu-Ray hater in fact I'm looking forward to getting a PS3. However there is so much misinformation and hype. Initially I thought that Blu-Ray would be an ideal storage for backups in computer environments but the .1mm protection layer and slow speed will negate most companies of 25 computers or more from utilizing it.
I wish we had a unified format but the stakes are high and Toshiba/NEC and Sony/BDA won't budge.
Both formats have their + and - and I'm willing to see how they fare in the marketplace even if it slows HDTV adoption. Both formats could be a niche format ala Laserdisc. I think its folly to think the arc for BD/HD-DVD will follow the same path as DVD.
With DVD you have a tech that was superior to broadcast TV and enabled random access versus linear tape.
BD/HD-DVD offer no such advantages. HD broadcasts have the same resolution(albeit more compression in some areas) and we have random access already with DVD. I look for both formats to struggle for a while. This could hurt BD because if the formats aren't taking off a HD-DVD fab can convert the production line to pressing DVD-9 whilst the BD fab is stuck.
Originally posted by Blackcat
Don't underestimate the importance of Matsushita. They not only sell as Panasonic and Technics, they build parts for all the major players and supply disc plant hardware. They've been developing blue laser for DVD for 5 years.
Content is vital, but as has been mentioned you need hardware to play it on. Next spring when PS3 lands there will suddenly be 50 million BD consumers, and while HD-DVD players will be around only bleeding-edge addicts will spend $1000+ on one, not to mention the high costs of HD TVs.
I think the format war is far from over, but Star Wars and PS3 are pretty big battles.
People will be buying HD-DVD players and discs this Christmas. I'm not even trying to think about middle next year when PS3s hit because that's still too far off. And it'll take some time to ramp up to $50 million users at $499. Folks here in North America aren't that rich. I don't know why you assume that a BD player can be made for $499 whilst a HD-DVD cannot. Sony hasn't announced any official pricing on anything that will play the next gen BD-ROM. Rather disconcerting I might add.
All in all it's pretty frustration the lack of information from both camps.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Matshushita have lost their minds.
Fact:
HD-DVD is the only format with pre-announced titles.
HD-DVD is the only format with player pricing even suggested($1k)
HD-DVD is the only format that provides format compatibility with Red Laser DVD.
Gee, an arbitratry list of titles with no details or release dates mentioned. Only $1000 for a player is a selling point? And what's this bunk about DVD compatability? Both formats use blue lasers and require a blue/red combo head for backwards compatability. Oh, and most people do care about storage capacity. We all know you don't since you shoot down this advantage every chance you get, claiming that it is meaningless. To you maybe. I don't know how you can store and access hundreds or thousands of Gigabytes online. It would take me 24 hours to download just one movie over broadband. People are going to want to record HD content just as they do SD content with a VCR or PVR. Storage capacity is very important here. Hard drive capacity is almost at a standstill aside from 1" and 1.8" drives. At this rate 3.5" drives with a 1TB capacity are a few years away.
Gee, an arbitratry list of titles with no details or release dates mentioned. Only $1000 for a player is a selling point?
My source of frustration is that Sony hasn't even done the above yet they are constantly being proclaimed the winner. I just crave additional information about BD-ROM that's all.
While both formats require Blue and Red lasers BD players have the head too close to the disc so it'll undoubtedly be more expensive. HD-DVD has a very similar numerical aperture so both lasers can use the same diode. Cheaper.
I wouldn't say that I'm anti-storage but I've heard people talk as if BD is going to turn into a viable backup medium. This just isn't going to happen. It'll be cool for you and I to back up our data too. However SMB and Fortune 1000 won't look at optical storage and that's where the big money is.
At this rate 3.5" drives with a 1TB capacity are a few years away
I'd say they are probably a couple of years away. Currently we're at 133GB per platter. I look for that to rise to 200GB per platter in 18-24 months. Today's drives are usually 3 platters for cost reasons but they could easily go 5 platters and offer 665 today and 1TB tomorrow.
Honestly I don't mean to denigrate Blu-Ray but if there are two formats I want them to compete for my business. Sony's doing good marketing their product but failing in preparing the consumer for what the costs and availability of movies will be during launch. This irks me.
http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/052305toshiba/
Of particular interest you may want to hightlight:
The big splash, of course, was the latest news on HD DVD. Despite ongoing discussions regarding a possible consolidation of the warring HD DVD and Blu-ray camps, Toshiba is pushing ahead. They confirmed their plans to have an HD DVD player on the market before the end of the year (about $1000), together with a substantial number of discs from several studios. An HD DVD recorder is unlikely before 2007. The final HD DVD specification is nearly complete, with no major disagreements remaining that might slow up the schedule (including the all-important Digital Rights Management). For those hoping for 1080p from HD DVD, don't hold your breath?Toshiba confirmed that the data is recorded on HD DVD in 1080i, and there are no plans to change that. The players have already been designed for 1080i discs, and it would take a redesign to enable them to handle 1080p discs, even if there were plans to produce them.
All I can say is, I'll wait for the PS3 with a Blu-Ray drive so that I may watch HD movies in 1080p. I would call this a superiority over HD-DVD. And as far as an earlier post regarding HD-DVD having some sort of durability advantage,...I don't see one. From what I've read, Durabis, the technology developed by TDK exclusively for Blu-Ray drives will provide a huge amount of durability. It has been said before, that the durability is so good in fact that Blu-Ray backers have demonstrated on many occasions rubbing a Blu-Ray disc into a sand-dirt mixture, and then writing on the disc with a Sharpe, wiping the disc off, and then having the movie on the disc play without a hitch. Actually, on previous posts, I've mentioned this as an actual advantage over HD-DVD. As I've yet to hear of any similar technology in the HD-DVD camp.
As far as the PRICE, PRICE, PRICE, mantra,...I've read that Blu-Ray discs will not cost any more than the cost to produce current DVD's. Actually, I've read it may be even less expensive as a good portion of Blu-Ray discs are made from paper, saving on the cost of plastic. In addition, from all the articles I've read, we can expect Blu-Ray to ship titles at the current going rate of DVDs. So I don't know where people get the misinformation that we will be paying a premium by going to Blu-Ray.
I'm going to go out in a limb right now and post something that some of you may consider a bit controversial. But I think the writing is on the wall. I think the format war is over before it's even begun, and the Toshiba/HD-DVD camp is toast.
Why? You know how many PlayStation 2 systems Sony's sold since that unit's launch? 87 million. Let me repeat that. 87 million. 1.5 million were sold in the PS2's first month of availability alone.
Now, let me follow this up by noting that Microsoft's newly announced Xbox 360 system is going to run on existing DVD media (for games and movies), but will not support HD-DVD format discs.
Sony has the two biggest PC manufacturers in the world, Dell and HP, on their side, along with Apple, Hitachi, LG, Matsushita, Mitsubishi, Pioneer, Royal Philips, Samsung, Sharp and Thompson. Plus they've 20th Century Fox, Disney, Sony Pictures (Columbia TriStar) and now MGM in their camp... AND they've got the PS3 on the way.
Toshiba has Microsoft in their camp, sort of. On the hardware front, they have NEC, Sanyo and Memory-Tech. And in Hollywood, they've got Warner, New Line, Paramount and Universal.
Think about that. If I'm a high-end, home theater-phile, early adopter type, am I going to be jonesing to get my hands on a Sanyo or Toshiba HD-DVD player, or a Sony or Pioneer Blu-ray Disc player (or a PS3)? Are you kidding me?
This thing is over. It's done. Toshiba and Warner Bros. just haven't figured it out yet.
Yeah, I don't think too many people would be keen on spending $1000 for a Sanyo or Toshiba. Probably not too many would spend $1000 period, early adopters or not. A $495 PS3 on the other hand? Not only will it play HD content but games as well at hald the price. Not having it out by Christmas is bad but I guess the PSP sold well despite the odd release schedule.
Originally posted by marzetta7
The big splash, of course, was the latest news on HD DVD. Despite ongoing discussions regarding a possible consolidation of the warring HD DVD and Blu-ray camps, Toshiba is pushing ahead. They confirmed their plans to have an HD DVD player on the market before the end of the year (about $1000), together with a substantial number of discs from several studios. An HD DVD recorder is unlikely before 2007. The final HD DVD specification is nearly complete, with no major disagreements remaining that might slow up the schedule (including the all-important Digital Rights Management). For those hoping for 1080p from HD DVD, don't hold your breath?Toshiba confirmed that the data is recorded on HD DVD in 1080i, and there are no plans to change that. The players have already been designed for 1080i discs, and it would take a redesign to enable them to handle 1080p discs, even if there were plans to produce them.[/B]
Geez, I didn't even know about the 1080i limitation though recording has never been a priority with the HD-DVD camp so that's no surprise. How lame. Uh, why is HD-DVD even being discussed anymore? I'm actually developing a deep passionate hatred for the format now. It's so Microsoft. Egh.
1080i recording isn't bad at all in fact it's smart because you can design the player with a built in de-interlacer that'll convert it to 1080p lickety split.
BD-ROM may be priced close to HD-DVD but we don't know because the BDA is mums the word on pricing. Sony hasn't stated anything substantive about BD-ROM pricing. For HD-DVD both Memory-Tech and I think Cinram have gone on record as stating that HD-DVDs wouldn't be hard to stamp even at 3 layers.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Yeah I've heard about all the hype about Durabis but I gotta see if myself. HD-DVD doesn't need it because its protection layer is 6x thicker.
1080i recording isn't bad at all in fact it's smart because you can design the player with a built in de-interlacer that'll convert it to 1080p lickety split.
BD-ROM may be priced close to HD-DVD but we don't know because the BDA is mums the word on pricing. Sony hasn't stated anything substantive about BD-ROM pricing. For HD-DVD both Memory-Tech and I think Cinram have gone on record as stating that HD-DVDs wouldn't be hard to stamp even at 3 layers.
The protective layer of a DVD is 6x too and good luck when they get scratched. Ever rent a DVD from Blockbuster? An HD-DVD would be worse with the more tightly packed data. In reality all discs need a protective coating. I wish CDs and DVDs came in a protective caddy actually.
No 1080i on HD-DVD period. It's not just recording. There will be no prerecorded movies available in 1080i on HD-DVD apparently. That blows.
I haven't seen pricing on recordable HD-DVD media either but recording is nothing but a faint blip on the radar for the HD-DVD camp.
OK, I double checked. All content that is sourced in 1080p will be encoded as 1080p. I have no idea how Toshiba could have said what was quoted. Maybe it was mistraslated. As discussed before, PC based decoders should also output in 1080p but what CE equipment does (from either camp) is anyone's guess.
Amir
I believe Amir works for Microsoft as he's very knowledgable about Windows Media. Man I can't wait to get my Playstation3 really. I just hope both units drop to $500 quickly. I have to have my movies.
1080i recording isn't bad at all in fact it's smart because you can design the player with a built in de-interlacer that'll convert it to 1080p lickety split.
You can't polish a turd. That is like saying "It only has a 100 hp 4 cyl engine, but you can just bolt on an aftermarket turbocharger and it will be just like a V8".
Originally posted by e1618978
You can't polish a turd. That is like saying "It only has a 100 hp 4 cyl engine, but you can just bolt on an aftermarket turbocharger and it will be just like a V8".
Yes but 1080i isn't a turd. You will only see 1080i used at 50 or 60 frames per second thus you can deinterlace these signals quite easily to 25 or 30 frame 1080p. However It's doubtful that the information from that link was correct in the first place but even if it was I wouldn't worry at all.
Bring on the High Definition!
Originally posted by e1618978
You can't polish a turd. That is like saying "It only has a 100 hp 4 cyl engine, but you can just bolt on an aftermarket turbocharger and it will be just like a V8".
Toshiba has. No, it's more like grafting on updates to a 10-year old OS instead of writing a new one from scratch. Taking the easy route seems to be the mantra here.
"Does the average person want technology for the sake of technology?"
I think the answer is far closer to:
Consumers want products that do what they state they will do and an acceptable level of quality and for a great price.
Blu-Ray is a tech geeks wet dream but HD-DVD should meet every requirement of the typical consumer.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Yes but ask yourself
"Does the average person want technology for the sake of technology?"
I think the answer is far closer to:
Consumers want products that do what they state they will do and an acceptable level of quality and for a great price.
Blu-Ray is a tech geeks wet dream but HD-DVD should meet every requirement of the typical consumer.
It's not technology for the sake of technology though. Higher capacity, faster speeds and maybe 1080p support are all things consumers can benefit from. They just don't know it yet because HDTV is still in its infancy. When recording HD content becomes popular (and it will) people will crave more and more capacity. It doesn't make sense to come out with HD-DVD now only to replace it five years from now with something else. Toshiba even admitted that HD-DVD is an interim solution. Crazy.
If we took the view of the "typical consumer" we should all be using Windows because it's "good enough" and should be hanging out at WindowsInsider, right?
Walmart is the biggest retail chain.
Ikea the largest and cheapest furniture outlet.
Cheaper always wins. That's why ultimately Blu-Ray will lose the battle and Toshiba/NEC both know this. History is not on Sony's side.
Originally posted by hmurchison
%95 of the market does.
Walmart is the biggest retail chain.
Ikea the largest and cheapest furniture outlet.
Cheaper always wins. That's why ultimately Blu-Ray will lose the battle and Toshiba/NEC both know this. History is not on Sony's side.
Yeah but 95% of the market would shop at Walmart to save a little money but drive 5 miles to get there in an SUV that gets 15mpg. Think Different.
Bold statement, and yet how untrue. Cheaper does not always win. Case in point,...the iPod. The iPod was KNOWN and still is known to be a lot more expensive than its music playing counterparts. The result, the iPod has like 70% marketshare. Another example, Coca-Cola and Pepsi, they are a lot more in terms of your Wal-Mart/Local Store brand based soda; however, they seem to claim about 90% of the soda market. Need I go on? As, I can give you example after example.
I predict the opposite. Toshiba will lose, and they know it. And, that is precisely why they approached the BDA about unification talks. They understand quite well that they are not just matched up against Sony as you would like individuals to believe (as it seems you have something against Sony) but against 125+ companies that include Hollywood studios, Game studios, and almost every electronic consumer company that you can think of. Couple that with the fact that the Playstation 3 will be thrown into a plethora of homes well under the $1,000 asking price of an HD-DVD player, and you get the picture...this "war" is as good as done before it has even begun.
As far as your "history" argument, again we're not just talking about Sony. Apple, Dell, HP, Samsung, Philips, Pioneer, Panasonic, etc. are also in this recent debacle. Moreover, I'm sure if you'd like to isolate 1 of the 125+ companies like Sony, they most assuredly have learned from past mistakes--aka Beta. Much like Apple has leared from not playing well with others, thus seeing their rise in marketshare. Furthermore, Sony is already poised with their own version of a Trojan Horse, analogous to Apple's iTunes on the Windows PC. It's called the Playstation 3. Considering they have over 87 million PS 2 consoles in the home over the world and expect to sell over that amount with the PS3 iteration,...you get my point. The household penetration is already there. It is not a matter of if Blu-Ray will get into peoples homes, it is a matter of when--Spring 2006 (the official death of the HD-DVD format).
Sincerely,
Nostradamus