Both formats will use all 3 codecs (AVC, VC-1, and MPEG2), its up to the content producer which codec they will use. I have watched some of the HD trailers on Apple's website (encode with H.264/AVC), and there are no artifacts. They look amazing.
That's because you're not using an embedded, hardware de-coder.
Here's my semi-Ludite view, from someone who finally upgrade his 2002 36" Sony XBR HD ready TV to HD last month.
Murch until Toshiba actually comes out with their HD DVD player at the announced feature/price point you have to realize that it's all vaporware. The announcement was probably meant to scare off other makers, a tactic favored by our Redmond brethren. The same holds true for BR, it's all smoke until it actually shows up.
Besides I can just see all our Walmart friends saying what, spend $500 for a new DVD player when my $79 player works great. Plus, you mean I have to pay $30-40 for an HD DVD dic. Heck, I can buy a regular new realease DVD for $20 and if I wait a month or two the price drops to $10-15. Ain't America great.
I'm really impressed with the visual quality of HD TV; however content is another matter. I wish there was more HD TV available that would appeal to someone over the mental age of 13.
Back to HD/BR. Personally I'm sitting this one out until we have a clear winner, assuming that either of these formats actually makes it with consumers, and the price of a DVD read/write player of the winning format drops to $400. By that time my TV, which only has componet inputs, will need replacing anyway. Until then I'm content to watch my LD and DVD collection on my present equipment.
Murch until Toshiba actually comes out with their HD DVD player at the announced feature/price point you have to realize that it's all vaporware. The announcement was probably meant to scare off other makers, a tactic favored by our Redmond brethren. The same holds true for BR, it's all smoke until it actually shows up.
I see your point but typically you can't pre-order vapor. Toshiba could be selling the players at or below cost but that's what Sony plans to do with the Playstation. Media costs are the next shoe to drop.
I don't expect HD media to take off until Mid 2007 into 2008 as we approach the shutoff of analog broadcasting in 2009. By then the price of players will be down to $199 and the walmart crowd may eyeball the platforms in droves.
One thing for sure. HD DVD has come out stronger than many expected if pricing is any indication.
Quote:
In the end, it didn't matter since laserdisc had the superior technology and industry support. Selectavision lasted three years. Laserdisc roughly 20 before being supplanted by DVDs.
Blu Ray doesn't offer a quantifiable picture quality advantage so it'll be interesting to see just how they do. I look forward to seeing this play out.
That's because you're not using an embedded, hardware de-coder.
Um, wouldn't a hardware decoder perform better than a software one? I remember in the early days of DVD on computers, it was all hardware decoders (my Powerbook had a PC card I had to put in to watch DVDs), because the software couldn't keep up. Maybe the H.264 hardware decoders aren't up to snuff yet (but like 1984 said, that demo he saw was awhile ago), but I guess we will see.
Um, wouldn't a hardware decoder perform better than a software one? I remember in the early days of DVD on computers, it was all hardware decoders (my Powerbook had a PC card I had to put in to watch DVDs), because the software couldn't keep up. Maybe the H.264 hardware decoders aren't up to snuff yet (but like 1984 said, that demo he saw was awhile ago), but I guess we will see.
There's a lot of voodoo that goes on in any sort of MPEG decoding. A computer has the advantage of a deterministic datapath and a much larger memory space, so the algorithm can be implemented as is. For an embedded decoder, the algorithm usually cannot be implemented as is, due to memory constraints, parallel-ization, etc. THere's also the possibility that these early decoders were too prematurely pulled out from FPGA based designs -- or may be FPGA-based desings themselves -- and verilog/VHDL syntheses are inherently full of non-deterministic quirks.
So, that's your answer. I don't really expect you to understand much of the lingo, but it's too much to go through it all.
There's a lot of voodoo that goes on in any sort of MPEG decoding. A computer has the advantage of a deterministic datapath and a much larger memory space, so the algorithm can be implemented as is. For an embedded decoder, the algorithm usually cannot be implemented as is, due to memory constraints, parallel-ization, etc. THere's also the possibility that these early decoders were too prematurely pulled out from FPGA based designs -- or may be FPGA-based desings themselves -- and verilog/VHDL syntheses are inherently full of non-deterministic quirks.
So, that's your answer. I don't really expect you to understand much of the lingo, but it's too much to go through it all.
I know about FPGA and verilog, we went over those in one of my classes last semester (I am a comp sci major). I actually had to write some crap using verilog and LogicWorks (fun).
What your saying makes sense to a degree. But what I don't get (and if its too much to explain so be it), but if the specs have been written for H.264, then isn't it just a matter of following those specs when designing a hardware decoder? Its seems like the most complex part would be the encoder (which could be done in software for the short term, if hardware based encoders and mature enough yet), since an encoder would need to be examining the footage to find how best to apply the capabilities of a given codec. A decoder seems like it would be rather simple to develop, and to develop without there being many visible artifacts...
Like I said, maybe its just because its early, and these problems are because the encoders and decoders weren't ready for primetime. But I would wager to say that given time, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be using the more advanced codecs over MPEG2.
What's your point? DVD-R media started out at similarly high prices in 1999, but had dropped to under $10 by 2001 and 30¢ by 2005. I notice you're not quoting any prices for HD-DVD recordable media. Could it be because nobody's announced any? And weren't you gleefully siding with Microsoft in saying that the 50GB dual layer Blu-ray discs were never going to see the light of day? What does this announcement say about that?
What's your point? DVD-R media started out at similarly high prices in 1999, but had dropped to under $10 by 2001 and 30¢ by 2005. I notice you're not quoting any prices for HD-DVD recordable media. Could it be because nobody's announced any? And weren't you gleefully siding with Microsoft in saying that the 50GB dual layer Blu-ray discs were never going to see the light of day? What does this announcement say about that?
the prices really aren't that obnoxious when you think about it...
He must have somehow read a "gee, these things are overpriced" attitude into your post. Which there isn't. Oh well.
Apparently you haven't read his past posts. Otherwise you would know that was exactly the attitude intended. He hates Blu-Ray as much as I hate HD-DVD. Not related but did anyone see the new Series 3 TiVo models? Holy crap!
Among the inaccuracies, the article tries to make it out as if Blu-Ray players will not be backward compatible with existing DVDs by stating...
"One of the chief advantages of the format, as compared with the Blu-ray format supported by Sony and others, is that it is compatible with existing DVDs..."
Anyhow, at least I did get a chuckle from the article in the form of HD-DVD's evolutionary (not revolutionary) player that some think is owning Blu-Ray...
"Kevin Collins, a senior program manager at Microsoft, told the audience of about 200 reporters that he was going to show them how phenomenal HD DVD viewing was. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the movie on Toshiba's HD DVD player to play after several attempts."
Does this suprise anyone? I could totally see Toshiba rushing their hardware to market with all sorts of bugs, much to their own demise. Furthermore, it doesn't suprise me that a Microsoftee was at the helm of the player when it decided not to work. Is it just me or does this sort of thing happen a lot with Microsoft-backed products? Preferably, I don't want Microsoft anywhere near my home theatre given their history.
Anyhow, I really don't see Toshiba and company getting that much of a head start as both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are waiting for the final spec on AACS before either of them can launch.
I have yet to see HDMI 1.3 equipped TV or even DVD units on the market. I probably haven't looked hard enough. Which means no 1080p/60Hz for current 1080p displays. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see full 1080p DVD titles on a BlueRay player, but it will take long time.... I think most consumers will be happy with HD lite and down scaling blue-ray contents to 720p or 1080i will hold it's benefits with those who already owns current HD display units. It will take a while before everyone starts buying 1080p capable displays for the 1080p players... On that note, HD-DVD (HD lite format) for most consumers will not matter, because HD vs HD lite is not that much of a difference as 480i to 720p and especially if you already own 720p/1080i displays. However, market dominance takes place with industrial support and format availability to consumers and Blue Ray seems to have a head start for now...though.
I personally don't care what format they release on the next DVD titles as long as they can put on good quality contents on the HD/BR DVD.... poorly mastered 1080p DVD's will look like crap compared to well mastered 480p contents. So, the formats don't really mean anything, however, the quality of source will on the screen.
Anyhow, at least I did get a chuckle from the article in the form of HD-DVD's evolutionary (not revolutionary) player that some think is owning Blu-Ray...
"Kevin Collins, a senior program manager at Microsoft, told the audience of about 200 reporters that he was going to show them how phenomenal HD DVD viewing was. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the movie on Toshiba's HD DVD player to play after several attempts."
Does this suprise anyone? I could totally see Toshiba rushing their hardware to market with all sorts of bugs, much to their own demise. Furthermore, it doesn't suprise me that a Microsoftee was at the helm of the player when it decided not to work. Is it just me or does this sort of thing happen a lot with Microsoft-backed products? Preferably, I don't want Microsoft anywhere near my home theatre given their history.
That is what I witnessed. The player kept overheating. That and the digital artifacts which I was shocked to see with hardware decoding. I'm not too fond of Toshiba quality. I really wouldn't want something that Microsoft pushes either. I like the fact that if I don't like the Blu-Ray player from Sony I could get one from Pioneer, JVC, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, etc.
Apparently you haven't read his past posts. Otherwise you would know that was exactly the attitude intended. He hates Blu-Ray as much as I hate HD-DVD. Not related but did anyone see the new Series 3 TiVo models? Holy crap!
No...I admit the price is higher than I thought it would be but I expect similar pricing from HD DVD recordable media. Tivo Series3 rocks. Finally they get it on the 3rd try. My Mother will buy one as soon as they hit. She's been waiting for HD Tivo.
I know about FPGA and verilog, we went over those in one of my classes last semester (I am a comp sci major). I actually had to write some crap using verilog and LogicWorks (fun).
What your saying makes sense to a degree. But what I don't get (and if its too much to explain so be it), but if the specs have been written for H.264, then isn't it just a matter of following those specs when designing a hardware decoder?
First of all, we know that there are artifacts in hardware MPEG-4 systems. So we can deduce that there is some problem with the hardware.
You can license the algorithm, which is presumably documented in a datasheet and also implemented in C. It is far too expensive to just dedicate a CPU and memory to run the algorithm as given in C. So it needs to be synthesized into Hardware. VLSI design is a huge can of worms. That's really enough said. Artifacts presumably occur whenever there's a slight mistiming or botched calculation -- and remember that these devices do not have proper FPUs. MPEG has predictive encoding, so errors will carry through until the next key frame, yielding artifacts.
Beyond this, all I can say is that designing hardware isn't the excercise in determinism that design software is. With hardware, you have to deal with the real world, which has a lot more uncertainty than a software system.
That article doesn't make much sense. I like this part:
"The watch-word for Blu-ray players with full BD-J capabilities - and with other features the basic players may to omit, such as recording capability - is full-profile."
So they consider a player that omits recording a basic model? Huh? SInce when do players record? That's an entirely different product.
Honestly, I just want to watch the movie and extras that come on the disc I just bought. I'm so sick of those long, drawn out animated sequences used when selecting scenes. Just go to the damn scene already.
Comments
Originally posted by kupan787
Both formats will use all 3 codecs (AVC, VC-1, and MPEG2), its up to the content producer which codec they will use. I have watched some of the HD trailers on Apple's website (encode with H.264/AVC), and there are no artifacts. They look amazing.
That's because you're not using an embedded, hardware de-coder.
Murch until Toshiba actually comes out with their HD DVD player at the announced feature/price point you have to realize that it's all vaporware. The announcement was probably meant to scare off other makers, a tactic favored by our Redmond brethren. The same holds true for BR, it's all smoke until it actually shows up.
Besides I can just see all our Walmart friends saying what, spend $500 for a new DVD player when my $79 player works great. Plus, you mean I have to pay $30-40 for an HD DVD dic. Heck, I can buy a regular new realease DVD for $20 and if I wait a month or two the price drops to $10-15. Ain't America great.
I'm really impressed with the visual quality of HD TV; however content is another matter. I wish there was more HD TV available that would appeal to someone over the mental age of 13.
Back to HD/BR. Personally I'm sitting this one out until we have a clear winner, assuming that either of these formats actually makes it with consumers, and the price of a DVD read/write player of the winning format drops to $400. By that time my TV, which only has componet inputs, will need replacing anyway. Until then I'm content to watch my LD and DVD collection on my present equipment.
Murch until Toshiba actually comes out with their HD DVD player at the announced feature/price point you have to realize that it's all vaporware. The announcement was probably meant to scare off other makers, a tactic favored by our Redmond brethren. The same holds true for BR, it's all smoke until it actually shows up.
I see your point but typically you can't pre-order vapor. Toshiba could be selling the players at or below cost but that's what Sony plans to do with the Playstation. Media costs are the next shoe to drop.
I don't expect HD media to take off until Mid 2007 into 2008 as we approach the shutoff of analog broadcasting in 2009. By then the price of players will be down to $199 and the walmart crowd may eyeball the platforms in droves.
One thing for sure. HD DVD has come out stronger than many expected if pricing is any indication.
In the end, it didn't matter since laserdisc had the superior technology and industry support. Selectavision lasted three years. Laserdisc roughly 20 before being supplanted by DVDs.
Blu Ray doesn't offer a quantifiable picture quality advantage so it'll be interesting to see just how they do. I look forward to seeing this play out.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
That's because you're not using an embedded, hardware de-coder.
Um, wouldn't a hardware decoder perform better than a software one? I remember in the early days of DVD on computers, it was all hardware decoders (my Powerbook had a PC card I had to put in to watch DVDs), because the software couldn't keep up. Maybe the H.264 hardware decoders aren't up to snuff yet (but like 1984 said, that demo he saw was awhile ago), but I guess we will see.
Originally posted by kupan787
Um, wouldn't a hardware decoder perform better than a software one? I remember in the early days of DVD on computers, it was all hardware decoders (my Powerbook had a PC card I had to put in to watch DVDs), because the software couldn't keep up. Maybe the H.264 hardware decoders aren't up to snuff yet (but like 1984 said, that demo he saw was awhile ago), but I guess we will see.
There's a lot of voodoo that goes on in any sort of MPEG decoding. A computer has the advantage of a deterministic datapath and a much larger memory space, so the algorithm can be implemented as is. For an embedded decoder, the algorithm usually cannot be implemented as is, due to memory constraints, parallel-ization, etc. THere's also the possibility that these early decoders were too prematurely pulled out from FPGA based designs -- or may be FPGA-based desings themselves -- and verilog/VHDL syntheses are inherently full of non-deterministic quirks.
So, that's your answer. I don't really expect you to understand much of the lingo, but it's too much to go through it all.
LM-BE50DE
Rewritable, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$59.99
LM-BE25DE
Rewritable, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$24.99
LM-BR50DE
Write once, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$42.99
LM-BR25DE
Write once, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$17.99
Originally posted by Splinemodel
There's a lot of voodoo that goes on in any sort of MPEG decoding. A computer has the advantage of a deterministic datapath and a much larger memory space, so the algorithm can be implemented as is. For an embedded decoder, the algorithm usually cannot be implemented as is, due to memory constraints, parallel-ization, etc. THere's also the possibility that these early decoders were too prematurely pulled out from FPGA based designs -- or may be FPGA-based desings themselves -- and verilog/VHDL syntheses are inherently full of non-deterministic quirks.
So, that's your answer. I don't really expect you to understand much of the lingo, but it's too much to go through it all.
I know about FPGA and verilog, we went over those in one of my classes last semester (I am a comp sci major). I actually had to write some crap using verilog and LogicWorks (fun).
What your saying makes sense to a degree. But what I don't get (and if its too much to explain so be it), but if the specs have been written for H.264, then isn't it just a matter of following those specs when designing a hardware decoder? Its seems like the most complex part would be the encoder (which could be done in software for the short term, if hardware based encoders and mature enough yet), since an encoder would need to be examining the footage to find how best to apply the capabilities of a given codec. A decoder seems like it would be rather simple to develop, and to develop without there being many visible artifacts...
Like I said, maybe its just because its early, and these problems are because the encoders and decoders weren't ready for primetime. But I would wager to say that given time, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will be using the more advanced codecs over MPEG2.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Panasonic announces Blu Ray Recordable pricing
LM-BE50DE
Rewritable, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$59.99
LM-BE25DE
Rewritable, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$24.99
LM-BR50DE
Write once, 50GB, Single-Sided, Dual Layer
$42.99
LM-BR25DE
Write once, 25GB, Single-Sided, Single Layer
$17.99
What's your point? DVD-R media started out at similarly high prices in 1999, but had dropped to under $10 by 2001 and 30¢ by 2005. I notice you're not quoting any prices for HD-DVD recordable media. Could it be because nobody's announced any? And weren't you gleefully siding with Microsoft in saying that the 50GB dual layer Blu-ray discs were never going to see the light of day? What does this announcement say about that?
What's your point?
Originally posted by Kolchak
What's your point? DVD-R media started out at similarly high prices in 1999, but had dropped to under $10 by 2001 and 30¢ by 2005. I notice you're not quoting any prices for HD-DVD recordable media. Could it be because nobody's announced any? And weren't you gleefully siding with Microsoft in saying that the 50GB dual layer Blu-ray discs were never going to see the light of day? What does this announcement say about that?
the prices really aren't that obnoxious when you think about it...
i'd just hate to burn a coaster on those suckas!
Originally posted by Chucker
He must have somehow read a "gee, these things are overpriced" attitude into your post. Which there isn't. Oh well.
Apparently you haven't read his past posts. Otherwise you would know that was exactly the attitude intended. He hates Blu-Ray as much as I hate HD-DVD. Not related but did anyone see the new Series 3 TiVo models? Holy crap!
http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html
http://news.com.com/HD+DVD+backers+p...l?tag=nefd.top
Among the inaccuracies, the article tries to make it out as if Blu-Ray players will not be backward compatible with existing DVDs by stating...
"One of the chief advantages of the format, as compared with the Blu-ray format supported by Sony and others, is that it is compatible with existing DVDs..."
Anyhow, at least I did get a chuckle from the article in the form of HD-DVD's evolutionary (not revolutionary) player that some think is owning Blu-Ray...
"Kevin Collins, a senior program manager at Microsoft, told the audience of about 200 reporters that he was going to show them how phenomenal HD DVD viewing was. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the movie on Toshiba's HD DVD player to play after several attempts."
Does this suprise anyone? I could totally see Toshiba rushing their hardware to market with all sorts of bugs, much to their own demise. Furthermore, it doesn't suprise me that a Microsoftee was at the helm of the player when it decided not to work. Is it just me or does this sort of thing happen a lot with Microsoft-backed products? Preferably, I don't want Microsoft anywhere near my home theatre given their history.
Anyhow, I really don't see Toshiba and company getting that much of a head start as both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are waiting for the final spec on AACS before either of them can launch.
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28769
I guess we aren't the only ones who think Toshiba appears desperate...
Originally posted by 1984
The Sony Playstation 3 will do 1080/60p
I have yet to see HDMI 1.3 equipped TV or even DVD units on the market. I probably haven't looked hard enough. Which means no 1080p/60Hz for current 1080p displays. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see full 1080p DVD titles on a BlueRay player, but it will take long time.... I think most consumers will be happy with HD lite and down scaling blue-ray contents to 720p or 1080i will hold it's benefits with those who already owns current HD display units. It will take a while before everyone starts buying 1080p capable displays for the 1080p players... On that note, HD-DVD (HD lite format) for most consumers will not matter, because HD vs HD lite is not that much of a difference as 480i to 720p and especially if you already own 720p/1080i displays. However, market dominance takes place with industrial support and format availability to consumers and Blue Ray seems to have a head start for now...though.
I personally don't care what format they release on the next DVD titles as long as they can put on good quality contents on the HD/BR DVD.... poorly mastered 1080p DVD's will look like crap compared to well mastered 480p contents. So, the formats don't really mean anything, however, the quality of source will on the screen.
Originally posted by marzetta7
Anyhow, at least I did get a chuckle from the article in the form of HD-DVD's evolutionary (not revolutionary) player that some think is owning Blu-Ray...
"Kevin Collins, a senior program manager at Microsoft, told the audience of about 200 reporters that he was going to show them how phenomenal HD DVD viewing was. Unfortunately, he couldn't get the movie on Toshiba's HD DVD player to play after several attempts."
Does this suprise anyone? I could totally see Toshiba rushing their hardware to market with all sorts of bugs, much to their own demise. Furthermore, it doesn't suprise me that a Microsoftee was at the helm of the player when it decided not to work. Is it just me or does this sort of thing happen a lot with Microsoft-backed products? Preferably, I don't want Microsoft anywhere near my home theatre given their history.
That is what I witnessed. The player kept overheating. That and the digital artifacts which I was shocked to see with hardware decoding. I'm not too fond of Toshiba quality. I really wouldn't want something that Microsoft pushes either. I like the fact that if I don't like the Blu-Ray player from Sony I could get one from Pioneer, JVC, Panasonic, Philips, Samsung, Pioneer, etc.
Originally posted by 1984
Apparently you haven't read his past posts. Otherwise you would know that was exactly the attitude intended. He hates Blu-Ray as much as I hate HD-DVD. Not related but did anyone see the new Series 3 TiVo models? Holy crap!
http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html
No...I admit the price is higher than I thought it would be but I expect similar pricing from HD DVD recordable media. Tivo Series3 rocks. Finally they get it on the 3rd try. My Mother will buy one as soon as they hit. She's been waiting for HD Tivo.
Interesting article. Blu Ray players may not have full interactive layer
Originally posted by kupan787
I know about FPGA and verilog, we went over those in one of my classes last semester (I am a comp sci major). I actually had to write some crap using verilog and LogicWorks (fun).
What your saying makes sense to a degree. But what I don't get (and if its too much to explain so be it), but if the specs have been written for H.264, then isn't it just a matter of following those specs when designing a hardware decoder?
First of all, we know that there are artifacts in hardware MPEG-4 systems. So we can deduce that there is some problem with the hardware.
You can license the algorithm, which is presumably documented in a datasheet and also implemented in C. It is far too expensive to just dedicate a CPU and memory to run the algorithm as given in C. So it needs to be synthesized into Hardware. VLSI design is a huge can of worms. That's really enough said. Artifacts presumably occur whenever there's a slight mistiming or botched calculation -- and remember that these devices do not have proper FPUs. MPEG has predictive encoding, so errors will carry through until the next key frame, yielding artifacts.
Beyond this, all I can say is that designing hardware isn't the excercise in determinism that design software is. With hardware, you have to deal with the real world, which has a lot more uncertainty than a software system.
Picture of Samung's new Blu-Ray player...
Picture of Panasonic's new Blu-Ray player...
Originally posted by hmurchison
Interesting article. Blu Ray players may not have full interactive layer
That article doesn't make much sense. I like this part:
"The watch-word for Blu-ray players with full BD-J capabilities - and with other features the basic players may to omit, such as recording capability - is full-profile."
So they consider a player that omits recording a basic model? Huh? SInce when do players record? That's an entirely different product.
Honestly, I just want to watch the movie and extras that come on the disc I just bought. I'm so sick of those long, drawn out animated sequences used when selecting scenes. Just go to the damn scene already.