Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (2006)

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  • Reply 61 of 2106
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Why are those Blu ray players so big? I assume it's because audio-video-philes are a foolish bunch and think bigger means better. I suppose we ARE talking about the same folks who still think tube amps are good. (My oscilloscope thinks differently, by the way)
  • Reply 62 of 2106
    kupan787kupan787 Posts: 586member
    Interesting article over at Maccentral :



    Quote:

    The BD-P1000 player will cost US$1,000



    So now the pricing has come out. It looks to be $500 vs $1000 for the first gen of each.



    Quote:

    ...and will be able to output high-definition video on an HDMI (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) at 720p and 1080i (720 lines progressive scanning and 1,080 lines interlaced scanning) resolutions. That?s the same as the Toshiba players and means that both first-generation high-definition optical disc players won?t be able to output a signal at 1080p, which is considered the best of several high-definition picture standards.



    This was the big thing being harped on by Blu-Ray guys, the fact that Blu-Ray was 1080p and HD-DVD was only 1080i. But it looks like both will be the same at the start.



    And this little bit isn't good:



    Quote:

    Samsung?s April launch could be delayed if BD Java, the standard for interactive features on Blu-ray Discs, isn?t completed in time.



    ?BD Java is one thing that is still being worked out. The timetable, as I understand it, is late March,? said Sanduski. ?So that?s why [our timetable is] end of April. We think we can do it.?




  • Reply 63 of 2106
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Splinemodel

    Why are those Blu ray players so big? I assume it's because audio-video-philes are a foolish bunch and think bigger means better. I suppose we ARE talking about the same folks who still think tube amps are good. (My oscilloscope thinks differently, by the way)



    Your ears are a better tool for this purpose than an oscilloscope. Tube amps are so much better than solid state amps that only somebody who has not listened to the difference could scoff. Do you measure sex with your scientific tools? ("I can tell she would be a better lover because her measurments are more perfect, my micrometer says so"...).



    Also, your oscilloscope should be telling you about the horrible solid state behavior at clipping. A square wave is a tweeter killer, you won't blow a tweeter with a tube amp. An oscilloscope will also not tell you the distributions of harmonic distortion - odd orders (like from solid state) sound much worse than even order (like from tube amps) even at orders of magnitude lower levels.





    And bigger often means better - choke loaded power supplies are huge, and stuff with good power supplies sound much better than stuff with switched power supplies. Good capacitors are often large (but not all large caps are good), solid chassis prevent EMF interference and vibration, etc.
  • Reply 64 of 2106
    splinemodelsplinemodel Posts: 7,311member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by e1618978

    Your ears are a better tool for this purpose than an oscilloscope.



    . . .



    And bigger often means better -








    I didn't really want to get into this, but I did at least prove that an audiophile in the audience thinks bigger is better. I could tell why you're wrong about tubes ("my ears are better than science" is a bullshit argument) but you wouldn't listen anyway, so there's no point.



    Getting back to the topic at hand . . .



    You can't deny that in an age of miniturization, the Blu-ray players are un-necessarily oversized. When the whole thing is running very low power VLSI digital components, there's not a whole lot of need for radical EMI shielding or super-clean power. The audio from a Disc is MPEG encoded, so the only place where any sort of clean power is needed is the link to an analog A/V receiver (if you actually use it instead of the digital output), and it can be independently shielded, grounded, and powered. I doubt it's more than a 150mA draw. . . and that's a very generous estimate.



    Really, the only people who pack boards full of discrete logic these days are music people, partly because they need to deliver a lot of power, and partly because they don't know better. I guarantee these players are full of empty space.
  • Reply 65 of 2106
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Splinemodel

    I guarantee these players are full of empty space.



    If you get a chance, take a look at the insides of a Sony SCD-1 SACD player. It is large, 35 lbs, very full, and amazing.
  • Reply 66 of 2106
    wmfwmf Posts: 1,164member
    It has been announced that the Pioneer player is using the Sigma chip, which does everything on one chip. Given that Blu-ray players don't have amps inside, it's gotta be empty space.
  • Reply 67 of 2106
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by kupan787

    So now the pricing has come out. It looks to be $500 vs $1000 for the first gen of each.



    To be quickly changed as soon as the PS3 is released, likely by June. All of a sudden, a multipurpose console with Blu-ray costs the same as a standalone HD-DVD player. Meanwhile, Microsoft eventually puts HD-DVD on the Xbox 360, but only as an add-on that will cost at least a couple of hundred bucks. And they can't build it in because it's already been reported that they're already losing quite a bit of money on each 360 they sell.



    Big argument for PS3: If Blu-ray flops, at least the PS3 is still useful as a game console. Meanwhile, I'd be leery of paying $500 for a standalone that may become as much a doorstop as a Divx player.
  • Reply 68 of 2106
    19841984 Posts: 955member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Splinemodel

    I didn't really want to get into this, but I did at least prove that an audiophile in the audience thinks bigger is better. I could tell why you're wrong about tubes ("my ears are better than science" is a bullshit argument) but you wouldn't listen anyway, so there's no point.





    I suppose you think CDs are the pinnacle of audio quality huh? Digital is not always better. It's simply more convenient. Staring at an oscilloscope isn't going to tell you a damn thing about how it's going to sound. You're not a machine. Are you? The same goes for video signals. You can get a great looking waveform from a digital tv broadcast with a poor picture and a great looking picture with a bad looking waveform. There are just too many variables. I've heard many Tube amps that sounded better than SS ones. I've heard some pretty awful Tube amps as well. Do a double blind test. Use your ears to decide. They are all that matter.



    Getting back to the topic at hand such as it is...



    Quote:

    [B}You can't deny that in an age of miniturization, the Blu-ray players are un-necessarily oversized.[/B]



    The HD-DVD player from Toshiba is just as big so I don't know what you're getting on about. Besides, I've had some of those slim components and they've always been trouble due to overheating.
  • Reply 69 of 2106
    19841984 Posts: 955member
    ...
  • Reply 70 of 2106
    elixirelixir Posts: 782member
    ok, i just read the articles.



    as it stands right now in my opinion 500 vs 1000 dollars is no match, HD-DVD wins in the market.





    the life of blu-ray rests on the ps3.
  • Reply 71 of 2106
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Elixir

    ok, i just read the articles.



    as it stands right now in my opinion 500 vs 1000 dollars is no match, HD-DVD wins in the market.





    the life of blu-ray rests on the ps3.




    It depends. Is the early adopter market really going to scoff at $500 if it means extra features aimed at quality? If you've been hanging out for high quality pictures why would you cut it short and not go for quality in all respects?



    The war will never be decided at that price range anyway and not in 2006.
  • Reply 72 of 2106
    elixirelixir Posts: 782member
    what do you mean all respects?





    blu-ray is not that much farther in quality vs hd-dvd.





    picture quality can go so far until you cease to notice it.
  • Reply 73 of 2106
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Elixir

    what do you mean all respects?





    blu-ray is not that much farther in quality vs hd-dvd.





    picture quality can go so far until you cease to notice it.




    I'm not even talking about compression artifacts here yet. Components matter.



    There is a big difference between a $50 DVD player and one worth a few hundred. There are leagues of difference in audio output quality, image processing, customisability, etc. By the looks of it so far the Blu-Ray camp is aiming squarely at the people who care about very high quality and these people won't mind the $1000+ price tag if it gets them there. These people are also likely to be the early adopters as they are either purists or have the disposable income.



    $500 is still too high for consumer mass adoption. If you're willing to pay that much for a DVD player, HD or not, you're willing to spend more to make sure you have the ultimate viewing experience. Otherwise you may as well wait 6 months for the first round of price drops.



    Have no doubt if the Blu-Ray camp wants cheaper players they can do it too. The parts in the PS3 are meant to cost only around $100. Admittedly Cell and RSX handle the decode but there's still room there to get to the $500 price tag if they want.
  • Reply 74 of 2106
    elixirelixir Posts: 782member
    no, sorry 1000 does not warrant the quality difference between the hd-dvd player and the blu-ray one.
  • Reply 75 of 2106
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Elixir

    no, sorry 1000 does not warrant the quality difference between the hd-dvd player and the blu-ray one.



    HD-DVD has so little momentum compared to Blu-ray, so the $500 might not be as wise an investment as a PS3 - you might be throwing the unit away later.
  • Reply 76 of 2106
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,439member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by e1618978

    HD-DVD has so little momentum compared to Blu-ray, so the $500 might not be as wise an investment as a PS3 - you might be throwing the unit away later.



    Momentum? HD DVD can be preordered right now at Amazon, Tweeter, Crutchfield or Best Buy. Blu Ray has the 2x price, no ship date and a bunch of Kolchak conjecture about price and availability. Nay...the momentum is from the platform that is ready for order and cheaper.



    You guys have an interesting flavor of RDF. Steve Jobs doesn't have a thing on you.



    Quote:

    Big argument for PS3: If Blu-ray flops, at least the PS3 is still useful as a game console. Meanwhile, I'd be leery of paying $500 for a standalone that may become as much a doorstop as a Divx player.



    You call "this" a big arguement? If my HD DVD flops I still have a HD player because I can burn HD Red Laser discs. Your argument is null and void before it even started for both platforms.
  • Reply 77 of 2106
    19841984 Posts: 955member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Momentum? HD DVD can be preordered right now at Amazon, Tweeter, Crutchfield or Best Buy. Blu Ray has the 2x price, no ship date and a bunch of Kolchak conjecture about price and availability. Nay...the momentum is from the platform that is ready for order and cheaper.





    Yeah, being first always works out for the best doesn't it?



    Why don't you just place your preorder for the Toshiba HD-DVD player already and be done with it? Put your money where your mouth is and support your format choice. Get the HD-DVD player and don't look back if you're so sure Blu-Ray is a failure.



    The Sony PS3 will do 1080/60p and cost around $500 when released. A couple manufacturers that were waiting on Toshiba's announcement are planning on releasing Blu-Ray players in the $500 to $700 range this summer. Another manufacturer has even stated they will be dropping the price they announced at CES in order to compete with Toshiba's pricing. I think you can guess who that is.



    This preorder business is bullshit anyway. Any one of the Blu-Ray manufacturers can do the same if they wish but why should they? It is a cry for help. An act of desperation. An all or nothing attempt to get a foothold in a market it is being pushed out of. It's nothing but a marketing ploy to gain mindshare from the more uneducated consumer. Will it work? I think it will to some extent, yes, but most will be talking a wait and see approach to all this. In the end it will prove futile.



    I just feel sorry for those who don't know any better. Those who don't understand the risks.
  • Reply 78 of 2106
    elixirelixir Posts: 782member
    1984- you make too many bold statements.



    you dont know shit about the ps3 yet.







    if someone puts out a blu-ray player at around 500-700 dollars dont you think the hd-dvd manufacturers could release for less? hell the player could drop to 200-300 dollars by this summer.
  • Reply 79 of 2106
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,439member
    Quote:

    Yeah, being first always works out for the best doesn't it?



    It helps. Don't forget right now HD DVD is half the cost of today's announced Blu Ray.



    Quote:

    The Sony PS3 will do 1080/60p and cost around $500 when released



    1080p/60 is useless. No movies will be delivered in that format for a LONG time. Sony was surprisingly quiet about the PS3. I'm not so sure they are sure what they can price it at. $500 is a guestimate versus multiple HD DVD players being $500. I have a bird in my hand..you have none.



    Quote:

    This preorder business is bullshit anyway. Any one of the Blu-Ray manufacturers can do the same if they wish but why should they? It is a cry for help. An act of desperation.



    I think not. It's a way of queueing people for purchase. Nothing more ..nothing less.



    Oh yeah HD DVD has Miramax and Studio Canal in Europe just went HD DVD exclusively for now.



    Rember ...it wasn't me that was stating that HD DVD was DOA it was fanatical Blu Ray supporters. Thus I don't have to jump through hoops or backpedal to try and explain why my format is more expensive and not shipping on time and may have missing interactivity features.



    Price trumps all people. The best you can do right now is merely match HD DVD pricing. I've told you all along Blu Ray was going to be expensive and you rebuffed me with economies of scale arguements and other blather. After CES I've even more inclined to go with my intuition over your statements. Haven't led me wrong yet.
  • Reply 80 of 2106
    telomartelomar Posts: 1,804member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    It helps. Don't forget right now HD DVD is half the cost of today's announced Blu Ray.



    1080p/60 is useless. No movies will be delivered in that format for a LONG time. Sony was surprisingly quiet about the PS3. I'm not so sure they are sure what they can price it at. $500 is a guestimate versus multiple HD DVD players being $500. I have a bird in my hand..you have none.




    Right now HD DVD isn't half the cost of anything because there are no products. Similarly there are no Blu-Ray products for sale. Pre-orders can easily be cancelled or have shipping dates moved. It'll be the end of the year before there is any sign of how the market will play out and there is no evidence yet that a HD DVD player is inherently cheaper. 2 companies announced Blu-Ray player prices so far and both aimed them high in the market. 1 company announced HD DVD prices and unsurprisingly they aimed cheap, because that's about the only hope they have. The PS3 price of under $500 was as much a promise of price as that from Toshiba.



    Both sides have delayed their products, although Blu-Ray certainly less than HD-DVD. Hardly a victory for anybody so far and those people claiming otherwise look obsessive.
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