The Digital Bits is going to have a full HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray report up soon but from the sound of things Blu-Ray dominated to show. Not surprising considering the studio and manufacturer support behind it. They have been platform agnostic in the past and have been in favor of a unified format so it should be interesting to hear what they have to say. The report is supposed to be up later on today.
I'll have lots more to say later this evening and tomorrow, but let me just tell you this much now: the buzz at CES 2006 was all about Blu-ray Disc. For virtually everyone I spoke with, from hardware reps to studio execs to random, run-of-the-mill attendees on the convention floor, Blu-ray had people talking. I have to tell you this as well: Having seen all the displays, talked the tech and kicked the tires a little bit, Blu-ray Disc has me genuinely excited again - more than I've been in a long while, since back in the early days of DVD, when Divx finally threw in the towel and our current favorite home video format really took off.
In the meantime take a look at their pictures from the show floor. Six pages in all. They weren't kidding. Blu-Ray really did seem to dominate the show.
Thanks for the pictures. Blu-ray's BD-Java interactive menus look leaps and bounds better than what was shown for HD-DVD's iHD inteactive menus. I wish I could see more of the interactive menus of both formats to see if that holds true. In the meantime though, it looks like BD-Java is the right choice.
I haven't read this thread to thoroughly... yet, but I would like to say (as ridiculous as it may seem) that Apple will have some sort of Blu-Ray support offered up tomorrow. GAASSSP! How can this be when the format has yet to be finalized? Beats me, but we shall see.
The ipod is a poor comparison. DVD players far outsell iPods, TVs outnumber computers in US homes. The iPod isn't 2x more expensive than its competitors either.
Nowhere has it been established that I dislike Sony. I dislike some of their actions but I am a fan.
Quote:
more studio support and movies, better quality (1080P vs 1080i), more storage space, and more durability
The first is subject to change, the second cannot be proven the third is a fact and the 4th cannot be proven. So half of these arguements can easily be refuted because they are based on conjecture.
So the assumption is everyone wants to game? There are many households that don't want game players. You place too much upon the shoulders of the PS3.
Google LG HD-199 and tell how chunky that player is. It's damn sleek.
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They call that personality disorder narcissism
You must have pulled that right from the DSM IV TR4 counselor. However I doubt I have that particular disorder more like confrontational disorder or something like it
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I thought he knew everything?
far from it but I'm always willing to learn. I doubt I'll have to eat too much crow. CES 2006 was an opportunity for Blu Ray to erase all doubts about the war and frankly they didn't really impress overall IMO of course. Bill Hunt may disagree.
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In the meantime though, it looks like BD-Java is the right choice
You gleaned that from looking at some graphics
Well Apple may have a Blu Ray player but what are you going to play on it? The media won't be here until April.
I haven't read this thread to thoroughly... yet, but I would like to say (as ridiculous as it may seem) that Apple will have some sort of Blu-Ray support offered up tomorrow. GAASSSP! How can this be when the format has yet to be finalized? Beats me, but we shall see.
The format was finalized a few days ago. There will be no Blu-ray drives for months, so Apple can't announce a Blu-ray product tomorrow (except maybe BD-9 authoring in DVD SP, but that's more of a NAB-type announcement). But maybe Steve will show some sort of Blu-ray demo.
You're not going to get an affordable drive for some time. You won't be able to play movies because you'd need HDCP on your monitor. Even if they could use the Pioneer recorder where would you get the content from as a consumer or the media?
I think in 2007 we can entertain the idea of Blu Ray or HD DVD as BTO options.
I think in 2007 we can entertain the idea of Blu Ray or HD DVD as BTO options.
2007 seems pessimistic.
I think we might see BR at the same time the Power Mac go intel. The stage is pretty well set with HD support in FC and iMovie. Assuming a decent PS3 launch you have a solid base outside the Mac base.
But yes, an announcement tomorrow is very unlikely given its a very hopeful Q3 release.
I think we'll have Apple tipping their hand come NAB 2006. If they add Blu Ray authoring support to DVD Studio Pro 5 then that paves the way for BD player/recorder options in future Macs.
However I don't rule out Apple having both platforms as BTO choices since their authoring tools could support both.
The ipod is a poor comparison. DVD players far outsell iPods, TVs outnumber computers in US homes. The iPod isn't 2x more expensive than its competitors either.
Hehehe. You remind me of Jim Carey in Liar Liar, "Your honor, I object!...(Judge)Why?...Because it's devastating to my case!" So I guess because the example didn't fit into your mold of thinking, it is therefore a poor comparison. You want more examples...
Microsoft Windows vs. Linux
Microsoft Office vs Any Office Suite
Coke and Pepsi vs Your Local Supermarket Soda Brand
Dell/HP computer vs. Your home-built PC
Sony Playstation or Xbox vs Nintendo
Hmm, see a trend here? Yup. All those companies on the left charge more than those on the right, yet they haven't been "trumped" by price. You want more examples? Go look them up yourself,...there are many, many more. The comparisons are not poor, your ridiculous argument claiming that "price trumps all" is what is poor.
The first is subject to change, the second cannot be proven the third is a fact and the 4th cannot be proven. So half of these arguements can easily be refuted because they are based on conjecture.
More studio support--you wish it is subject to change, but clearly the "momentum" is behind Blu-ray. That this could possibly be in a very, remote, distant, and delusional way change, still doesn't take away the FACT that Blu-ray has more studio support. Nice try though, still a fact.
Better quality--cannot be proven? What are you talking about? 1080P is better quality than 1080i and granted that some, and I mean some (specifically the Samsung Blu-ray player shipping in April) will output 1080i, most Blu-ray players will be outputting 1080P. This was shown, or in other words, dare I say...PROVEN, in the players at CES whereas I don't see anywhere in the spec of HD-DVD they will be outputting 1080P. And unless, you can show me otherwise, this so far as I know, is a FACT as well.
More storage space--yup, FACT.
More durability--Blu-ray discs will come with Durabis or a protective coating equivalent. HD-DVD,...oh yeah, they'll have the same protection as current DVDs which is pretty much nothing.
Conjecture, hardly. It is only conjecture to a mind that thinks, in an absolute sense, price trumps all. For those that know that there are indeed more variables to the success of a format than just price, they'll be more apt to see that your argument is the one based on conjecture.
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So the assumption is everyone wants to game? There are many households that don't want game players. You place too much upon the shoulders of the PS3. Google LG HD-199 and tell how chunky that player is. It's damn sleek.
No the assumption is that MOST will get what gives them more bang for their buck. That is, they'll choose the PS3 because, one, it looks sleeker and better, two, plays movies and games, and three, will provide a better quality picture by outputting 1080P. That, my friend, is a fair and good assumption. Heck, borderline guaranteed.
You Google LG BD199, it--a Blu-ray player from the same company--is just as "sleek" you think the HD-DVD player is from LG Electronics. In my opinion, still not as sleek as the PS3, but that's another topic. You are aware LG is producing Blu-ray players too, right? Which one will they choose, the HD-199 with limited studio support or the BD-199 that will play all the movies from 5 out of the 6 major Hollywood studios? Hmm? Oh, but there's that whole content thing again! Doh!
More durability--Blu-ray discs will come with Durabis or a protective coating equivalent. HD-DVD,...oh yeah, they'll have the same protection as current DVDs which is pretty much nothing.
Don't forget the recordable media. Blu-ray plans to use an inorganic film while HD-DVD will continue to use organic dye. A good guess would be that the inorganic material will be more stable over the years compared to the dye.
While all the speculation and wishful thinking about which HD format will be adopted is fun to read, IMO there's still one basic question that has yet to be answered. Will consumers view HD/BR as the next great idea in the manner of CDs/DVDs, or will it be a niche product like LDs, or will it be the failure that SACD and MD/DAT were?
One troublesome clue that points to the last two choices above is that HD TV sales are not as robust as manufacturers had hope according to this article.
Some news for those who believe that the next generation high definition format will be decided by the porn industry.
I believe this to be a fallacy. Simply because the Internet wasn't available when Betamax/VHS battle began. In order to avoid shame of being seen in a XXX theatre people spent the money.
Today the internet is pumped into millions of homes and each connection is just a website away from downloadable pr0n.
I doubt XXX will have the same effect today. If you try to go rental that's a problem because some states have laws that make rental porn difficult.
I think sales of HDTV will improve as the larger screens become more affordable which sounds like it'll happen in the next 18 months .
I think sales of HDTV will improve as the larger screens become more affordable which sounds like it'll happen in the next 18 months .
The main point of the Seattle Times article wasn't that price was scaring off consumers; it was that viewing technology seems to be a state of flux and people don't want to buy an HD TV now only to find it's outmoded 2 or 3 years from now.
I believe this to be a fallacy. Simply because the Internet wasn't available when Betamax/VHS battle began. In order to avoid shame of being seen in a XXX theatre people spent the money.
Actually, I'm in agreement with you here. Although, the support of adult video will indeed help the establishment of Blu-Ray as the next high definition standard, I, too don't think it is the all-deciding factor for Blu-ray adoption. However, I simply posted this information for those who put a lot of weight behind the history of Betamax/VHS and the porn industry.
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The main point of the Seattle Times article wasn't that price was scaring off consumers; it was that viewing technology seems to be a state of flux and people don't want to buy an HD TV now only to find it's outmoded 2 or 3 years from now.
Well, in my opinion, I've been waiting simply for HDTV sets to be just that--HDTV. More specifically, 1080P capable sets, that is sets that are capable of displaying 1920 X 1080 resolution progressive, are just being made available and have the price tag to come with it. I haven't wanted to buy an HDTV set yet because quite frankly, up until now they really weren't HDTVs. They just had the marketing going for them, but in reality, they were sets with 1024 X 768 resolution or something worse blown up on a 50in screen--it looked crappy to me. However, I believe the standard hd resolution of 1920 X 1080 will become the norm for HDTVs and prices will fall so consumers fearing outmoded TVs won't have to really worry about that. Moreover, once consumers see content that is in 1080P from the like of Blu-ray, consumers will come flocking. Also, I think the article is kind of embellishing the issue of consumers being scared off. I think normal people are just waiting for the technology to get within their price range. So, I don't really think it--viewing technology--is in a state of flux, but rather a state of progression.
Apple backs Blu-ray. It is a member of the board of directors of the BDA. Some will try to tell you that Apple supports both but that is simply not the case. I fully expect Apple to include Blu-ray drives by the end of this year in its personal computers or by Macworld 2007.
This the PR that many refer to and consider Apple to be a Blu Ray supporter. Well they are a Blu Ray supporter and I full expect to see support for the format in hardware and software for Macs. However ....barely over a month later
Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards?Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association
This in conjunction with the prominent HD DVD logo and support whithin the application for burning HD DVD discs
clearly shows that Apple is going to support both formats. I expect to see a revamp in DVD Studio Pro which adds Blu Ray authoring and finalizes HD DVD authoring as well. It is likely that from Apple's perspective it makes sense to support both platforms because they stand to sell supporting applications for both formats.
I would say Apple is about as neutral as they come.
Curious how you say that here, yet just five days ago, over on the AVS Forum you say:
Quote:
hmurchison: No sweat. Hey this doesn't mean Apple doesn't have a preference though as Steve Jobs has had Sony execs pop on state at tradeshows. I'd personally call'em a blu ray lean.
Hard to say man. Apple's poker face is pretty stoic here. In ways I think they're a Blu Ray lean and we're bound to see Blu Ray recordable before HD DVD. I wouldn't be surprised to see them trumpet Blu Ray as a way to sell more authoring applications. However at the heart of things I think Apple is mainly concerned with selling apps and not pushing a format/agenda. Meaning that I expect their overall stance afer both formats have shipped for a while to be fairly neutral. We shall soon see. I hope they do support both formats and let the consumer decide.
Read an article in EETimes about EVD. Murch, it sounds like EVD is really what you want.
It's still kinda vaporware (I think), and I'm not entirely convinced that it will work (10 layers?), but it DOES seem to fit your argument better than HD-DVD.
Comments
Originally posted by 1984
Hey all,
The Digital Bits is going to have a full HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray report up soon but from the sound of things Blu-Ray dominated to show. Not surprising considering the studio and manufacturer support behind it. They have been platform agnostic in the past and have been in favor of a unified format so it should be interesting to hear what they have to say. The report is supposed to be up later on today.
I'll have lots more to say later this evening and tomorrow, but let me just tell you this much now: the buzz at CES 2006 was all about Blu-ray Disc. For virtually everyone I spoke with, from hardware reps to studio execs to random, run-of-the-mill attendees on the convention floor, Blu-ray had people talking. I have to tell you this as well: Having seen all the displays, talked the tech and kicked the tires a little bit, Blu-ray Disc has me genuinely excited again - more than I've been in a long while, since back in the early days of DVD, when Divx finally threw in the towel and our current favorite home video format really took off.
In the meantime take a look at their pictures from the show floor. Six pages in all. They weren't kidding. Blu-Ray really did seem to dominate the show.
Thanks for the pictures. Blu-ray's BD-Java interactive menus look leaps and bounds better than what was shown for HD-DVD's iHD inteactive menus. I wish I could see more of the interactive menus of both formats to see if that holds true. In the meantime though, it looks like BD-Java is the right choice.
Nowhere has it been established that I dislike Sony. I dislike some of their actions but I am a fan.
more studio support and movies, better quality (1080P vs 1080i), more storage space, and more durability
The first is subject to change, the second cannot be proven the third is a fact and the 4th cannot be proven. So half of these arguements can easily be refuted because they are based on conjecture.
So the assumption is everyone wants to game? There are many households that don't want game players. You place too much upon the shoulders of the PS3.
Google LG HD-199 and tell how chunky that player is. It's damn sleek.
They call that personality disorder narcissism
You must have pulled that right from the DSM IV TR4 counselor. However I doubt I have that particular disorder more like confrontational disorder or something like it
I thought he knew everything?
far from it but I'm always willing to learn. I doubt I'll have to eat too much crow. CES 2006 was an opportunity for Blu Ray to erase all doubts about the war and frankly they didn't really impress overall IMO of course. Bill Hunt may disagree.
In the meantime though, it looks like BD-Java is the right choice
You gleaned that from looking at some graphics
Well Apple may have a Blu Ray player but what are you going to play on it? The media won't be here until April.
Originally posted by rongold
I haven't read this thread to thoroughly... yet, but I would like to say (as ridiculous as it may seem) that Apple will have some sort of Blu-Ray support offered up tomorrow. GAASSSP! How can this be when the format has yet to be finalized? Beats me, but we shall see.
The format was finalized a few days ago. There will be no Blu-ray drives for months, so Apple can't announce a Blu-ray product tomorrow (except maybe BD-9 authoring in DVD SP, but that's more of a NAB-type announcement). But maybe Steve will show some sort of Blu-ray demo.
You're not going to get an affordable drive for some time. You won't be able to play movies because you'd need HDCP on your monitor. Even if they could use the Pioneer recorder where would you get the content from as a consumer or the media?
I think in 2007 we can entertain the idea of Blu Ray or HD DVD as BTO options.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I think in 2007 we can entertain the idea of Blu Ray or HD DVD as BTO options.
2007 seems pessimistic.
I think we might see BR at the same time the Power Mac go intel. The stage is pretty well set with HD support in FC and iMovie. Assuming a decent PS3 launch you have a solid base outside the Mac base.
But yes, an announcement tomorrow is very unlikely given its a very hopeful Q3 release.
Vinea
However I don't rule out Apple having both platforms as BTO choices since their authoring tools could support both.
The ipod is a poor comparison. DVD players far outsell iPods, TVs outnumber computers in US homes. The iPod isn't 2x more expensive than its competitors either.
Hehehe. You remind me of Jim Carey in Liar Liar, "Your honor, I object!...(Judge)Why?...Because it's devastating to my case!" So I guess because the example didn't fit into your mold of thinking, it is therefore a poor comparison. You want more examples...
Microsoft Windows vs. Linux
Microsoft Office vs Any Office Suite
Coke and Pepsi vs Your Local Supermarket Soda Brand
Dell/HP computer vs. Your home-built PC
Sony Playstation or Xbox vs Nintendo
Hmm, see a trend here? Yup. All those companies on the left charge more than those on the right, yet they haven't been "trumped" by price. You want more examples? Go look them up yourself,...there are many, many more. The comparisons are not poor, your ridiculous argument claiming that "price trumps all" is what is poor.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
more studio support and movies, better quality (1080P vs 1080i), more storage space, and more durability
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first is subject to change, the second cannot be proven the third is a fact and the 4th cannot be proven. So half of these arguements can easily be refuted because they are based on conjecture.
More studio support--you wish it is subject to change, but clearly the "momentum" is behind Blu-ray. That this could possibly be in a very, remote, distant, and delusional way change, still doesn't take away the FACT that Blu-ray has more studio support. Nice try though, still a fact.
Better quality--cannot be proven? What are you talking about? 1080P is better quality than 1080i and granted that some, and I mean some (specifically the Samsung Blu-ray player shipping in April) will output 1080i, most Blu-ray players will be outputting 1080P. This was shown, or in other words, dare I say...PROVEN, in the players at CES whereas I don't see anywhere in the spec of HD-DVD they will be outputting 1080P. And unless, you can show me otherwise, this so far as I know, is a FACT as well.
More storage space--yup, FACT.
More durability--Blu-ray discs will come with Durabis or a protective coating equivalent. HD-DVD,...oh yeah, they'll have the same protection as current DVDs which is pretty much nothing.
Conjecture, hardly. It is only conjecture to a mind that thinks, in an absolute sense, price trumps all. For those that know that there are indeed more variables to the success of a format than just price, they'll be more apt to see that your argument is the one based on conjecture.
So the assumption is everyone wants to game? There are many households that don't want game players. You place too much upon the shoulders of the PS3. Google LG HD-199 and tell how chunky that player is. It's damn sleek.
No the assumption is that MOST will get what gives them more bang for their buck. That is, they'll choose the PS3 because, one, it looks sleeker and better, two, plays movies and games, and three, will provide a better quality picture by outputting 1080P. That, my friend, is a fair and good assumption. Heck, borderline guaranteed.
You Google LG BD199, it--a Blu-ray player from the same company--is just as "sleek" you think the HD-DVD player is from LG Electronics. In my opinion, still not as sleek as the PS3, but that's another topic. You are aware LG is producing Blu-ray players too, right? Which one will they choose, the HD-199 with limited studio support or the BD-199 that will play all the movies from 5 out of the 6 major Hollywood studios? Hmm? Oh, but there's that whole content thing again! Doh!
Originally posted by marzetta7
More durability--Blu-ray discs will come with Durabis or a protective coating equivalent. HD-DVD,...oh yeah, they'll have the same protection as current DVDs which is pretty much nothing.
Don't forget the recordable media. Blu-ray plans to use an inorganic film while HD-DVD will continue to use organic dye. A good guess would be that the inorganic material will be more stable over the years compared to the dye.
http://www.xbiz.com/news_piece.php?id=12735
Some news for those who believe that the next generation high definition format will be decided by the porn industry.
One troublesome clue that points to the last two choices above is that HD TV sales are not as robust as manufacturers had hope according to this article.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._bthdtv16.html
Some news for those who believe that the next generation high definition format will be decided by the porn industry.
I believe this to be a fallacy. Simply because the Internet wasn't available when Betamax/VHS battle began. In order to avoid shame of being seen in a XXX theatre people spent the money.
Today the internet is pumped into millions of homes and each connection is just a website away from downloadable pr0n.
I doubt XXX will have the same effect today. If you try to go rental that's a problem because some states have laws that make rental porn difficult.
I think sales of HDTV will improve as the larger screens become more affordable which sounds like it'll happen in the next 18 months .
Originally posted by hmurchison
I think sales of HDTV will improve as the larger screens become more affordable which sounds like it'll happen in the next 18 months .
The main point of the Seattle Times article wasn't that price was scaring off consumers; it was that viewing technology seems to be a state of flux and people don't want to buy an HD TV now only to find it's outmoded 2 or 3 years from now.
I believe this to be a fallacy. Simply because the Internet wasn't available when Betamax/VHS battle began. In order to avoid shame of being seen in a XXX theatre people spent the money.
Actually, I'm in agreement with you here. Although, the support of adult video will indeed help the establishment of Blu-Ray as the next high definition standard, I, too don't think it is the all-deciding factor for Blu-ray adoption. However, I simply posted this information for those who put a lot of weight behind the history of Betamax/VHS and the porn industry.
The main point of the Seattle Times article wasn't that price was scaring off consumers; it was that viewing technology seems to be a state of flux and people don't want to buy an HD TV now only to find it's outmoded 2 or 3 years from now.
Well, in my opinion, I've been waiting simply for HDTV sets to be just that--HDTV. More specifically, 1080P capable sets, that is sets that are capable of displaying 1920 X 1080 resolution progressive, are just being made available and have the price tag to come with it. I haven't wanted to buy an HDTV set yet because quite frankly, up until now they really weren't HDTVs. They just had the marketing going for them, but in reality, they were sets with 1024 X 768 resolution or something worse blown up on a 50in screen--it looked crappy to me. However, I believe the standard hd resolution of 1920 X 1080 will become the norm for HDTVs and prices will fall so consumers fearing outmoded TVs won't have to really worry about that. Moreover, once consumers see content that is in 1080P from the like of Blu-ray, consumers will come flocking. Also, I think the article is kind of embellishing the issue of consumers being scared off. I think normal people are just waiting for the technology to get within their price range. So, I don't really think it--viewing technology--is in a state of flux, but rather a state of progression.
I don't have any stake in the HD DVD vs Blu-Ray Disc battle, but it's a heck of a lot of fun to watch hmurchison defend his ground.
He's doing so with considerable argumentative skill.
I have forgotten which standard Apple backs. Would someone please enlighten me?
—Jaddie
March 10, 2005 Apple joins the Bluray Disc Assoc
This the PR that many refer to and consider Apple to be a Blu Ray supporter. Well they are a Blu Ray supporter and I full expect to see support for the format in hardware and software for Macs. However ....barely over a month later
April 17, 2005 Apple "reaffirms" committment to DVD Forum
Apple is committed to both emerging high definition DVD standards?Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Apple is an active member of the DVD Forum which developed the HD DVD standard, and last month joined the Board of Directors of the Blu-ray Disc Association
This in conjunction with the prominent HD DVD logo and support whithin the application for burning HD DVD discs
http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/dvdstudiopro/
clearly shows that Apple is going to support both formats. I expect to see a revamp in DVD Studio Pro which adds Blu Ray authoring and finalizes HD DVD authoring as well. It is likely that from Apple's perspective it makes sense to support both platforms because they stand to sell supporting applications for both formats.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I would say Apple is about as neutral as they come.
Curious how you say that here, yet just five days ago, over on the AVS Forum you say:
hmurchison: No sweat. Hey this doesn't mean Apple doesn't have a preference though as Steve Jobs has had Sony execs pop on state at tradeshows. I'd personally call'em a blu ray lean.
(emphasis mine)
Link here
Which is it?
Hard to say man. Apple's poker face is pretty stoic here. In ways I think they're a Blu Ray lean and we're bound to see Blu Ray recordable before HD DVD. I wouldn't be surprised to see them trumpet Blu Ray as a way to sell more authoring applications. However at the heart of things I think Apple is mainly concerned with selling apps and not pushing a format/agenda. Meaning that I expect their overall stance afer both formats have shipped for a while to be fairly neutral. We shall soon see. I hope they do support both formats and let the consumer decide.
It's still kinda vaporware (I think), and I'm not entirely convinced that it will work (10 layers?), but it DOES seem to fit your argument better than HD-DVD.