Your source is a post on AVS Forum who got it from a "reliable source"?
Vinea
Go read the post again. That's a direct quote from Robert owner of Value Electronics who's sold a bunch of HD DVD himself and would know at the very least what his allocation is.
Now let me see....trust Marzetta7's 12k comment or trust a store owner who routinely is invited to events and is trusted. I think I'll go with the store owner as the more reputable source. Robert was also the same gentleman that was looking for quotes on doing a small Jazz disc in HD and found that his Blu-Ray quote was like 4x that of HD DVD. I couldn't find any particulars but that sounds about right. You and I won't get any subsidy from Sony because we're not a major studio and thus we'll pay full price.
Quote:
Hahahahahahaha!! Nice, a post that contains a number some guy pulls out his arse. If they have sold 50,000, you'd think Toshiba would be tooting its horn by now wouldn't you?
Robert isn't an HD DVD fanboy. He's already stated that he's going to sell Blu Ray as well. As a store owner he's just a bit better at giving the "real" picture versus Blu-Ray fanboys like yourself like that to spin and deliver half truths like in the Media Centre thread. I think most reasonable people would be a semi insider like Robert over the rantings of someone who's not connected. Robert just got back from Media Tech last week and sat on some panels for discussion...what'd you do? Oh yeah...made a couple of posts at blu-ray.com's forums. Kind of pales in comparison mmmmmm'kay.
Blu-ray Disc is one of two new optical-disc formats vying to replace DVD for HD (high-definition) content. Blu-ray Disc and the competing HD-DVD format aren't compatible, so consumers face a choice between the two or waiting until a clear victor emerges. BenQ has put its weight behind Blu-ray Disc, but Lee said its support isn't necessarily exclusive.
"I believe eventually we will have to support both," he said. Lee also expects a multi-drive that can read and write both of the new formats to be available in the future. "Just look at the history of the DVD standard. DVD+, DVD-, DVD-RAM and eventually DVD Multi," he said, referring to drives that support all three formats.
.
Pretty much confirms what I've always expected. CE vendors will align with a particular format until it becomes clear that both formats will get the necessary traction. They will then move to support the over format. Once again we read about the possibility of a Universal Player. That's good news.
Well Pioneer has chosen Blu-Ray over DVD as well. Is there any doubt that Pioneer is a brand early adopters are likely to buy over Toshiba? They tend to make the type of quality equipment that early adopters will seek.
Go read the post again. That's a direct quote from Robert owner of Value Electronics who's sold a bunch of HD DVD himself and would know at the very least what his allocation is.
Now let me see....trust Marzetta7's 12k comment or trust a store owner who routinely is invited to events and is trusted.
Yah, I'm going to believe that this guy got 550 units in his first two allocations and got an additional 3 allocations afterwards. Right, a guy with one store and a web storefront got half the same number of units (300+250) initially allocated to all of Japan and 2.5% of all units originally allocated to the US.
I don't know Robert from Adam and he doesn't seem all that well regarded on AVS.
Why is he any more credible than this guy?
Quote:
Really, well i don't know where you get your info for Best Buy. But i work for the company have access to all inventory screens (RSS) for the entire company. My territory & district haven't received but one unit per store since launch. thats about 52 additional units. so i don't know where this stock pile is. maybe it's in a warehouse in iraq next to sadaam's weapons of mass destruction.
I can back up my findings because i have access to company wide inventory screens. You are going by allocation numbers you got from some "unknown" source close to you. Also, allocating and actually inbound and on hand are entirely different things. A company can make allocations all day long, an allocation is just an order to fill. If they never actually ship the allocation then it's just a broken promise. Thinking that Toshiba could ship 300,000 units by years end is a pipe dream.
"Tina Tuccillo, vice president of marketing communications for Toshiba, says the company expects to sell 30,000 HD-DVD players in the first three months after they ship"
so in the first 3 months only 30k then in the following 4 they are going to crank out an additional 270,000 haha...okay!
Found a great link that may be of interest to others who just want to know the 'real' differences (dated perhaps) between Blue Ray and HD-DVD. I found it quite informative.
Also... for those FIRMLY ENTRENCHED in one camp or another (you know who you are) I'd LOVE to hear (in short bullet format if possible) the EXACT reasons why you don't like X but love Y (and vice versa)
BR Pros
---------
aaa
bbb
ccc
BR Cons
----------
aaa
bbb
ccc
HD-DVD Pros
---------
aaa
bbb
ccc
HD-DVD Cons
----------
aaa
bbb
ccc
PLEASE limit your answers to KNOWN FACTS (others will correct you if you don't) and try you best not to dive head first into using fud ESPECIALLY when you know its FUD.
I'd really love to read some straight up (short) answers from the faithful.
This is YOUR chance to CONVINCE ME to join YOUR CAUSE!
Dave
P.S. Oh and 'just because I like it better'.... all be it a valid response would be considered by many people here an uneducated, negative and perhaps even a pig headed response by most people hear. Remember folks this is a movie player/recorder NOT an OS (where because I like it better would indeed be a valid answer for Mac OS users)
Robert's rep is just fine AVS he call'em like he seems them. He doesn't carry a torch for either format. When Blu-Ray comes he'll sell as many of those as he can.
Toshiba doesn't divulge sales numbers but their certainly going to be higher than Marzetta7's 12k quote. If Best Buy has 900 plus stores and each store gets an allocation of 3 say 4-5 times then Best Buy alone will have sold over 12K. Now add Walmart, Crutchfield, Tweeter, ValueElectronics and other stores and it's obvious that the 12k number posted was FUD.
Quote:
I should believe someone that claims to know what BB is selling over a guy who claims he works for BB and can see the numbers. On the internet?
vastly different Numerical Aperture means backwards support for Red Laser DVD more "bolt on"
Thin protection layer .1mm requires Caddy or spincoat/thinfilm which increases costs
BD-Java,while being more mature, is a format that must be compiled to view.
HD-DVD Pros
---------
Shared disc structure and similiar numerical aperture makes backwards compat easier. HD DVD lines can press DVD-9 and the OPU can be combined saving space and money.
iHD is an XML based format that doesn't require compiling and is more efficient for space.
Protection layer is .6mm the same as regular DVD. Not special coating or caddies are required. Bonding of discs is exactly like that of DVD so making 30GB DL discs is trivial and inexpensive.
HD-DVD Cons
----------
Lack of established CE vendors as compared to Blu-Ray.
30GB could be constraining if lossless codecs are used(7.1 TrueHD takes up 18Mbps for audio)
Studio support is half that of Blu-Ray.
Recording formats are lagging. Blu-Ray started as a recording format first.
As I see it the battle really boils down to cost and movie availability. Sony has ensured that Blu-Ray has a large advantage in movie availability. Toshiba has ensured that HD DVD is the least costly format to get into.
Sony has ensured that Blu-Ray has a large advantage in movie availability. Toshiba has ensured that HD DVD is the least costly format to get into.
For me, as a consumer, it boils down to cost. If I have to pay mroe than $20 for a movie... I'm OUT. As greedy as the Movie Industry is, I can see them charging 30-40 bucks just for a normal blu-ray movie. No thank you.
For me, as a consumer, it boils down to cost. If I have to pay mroe than $20 for a movie... I'm OUT. As greedy as the Movie Industry is, I can see them charging 30-40 bucks just for a normal blu-ray movie. No thank you.
Well, if cost is what it boils down to for you, then you'll be pleased to know that both Blu-ray and HD DVD discs COST THE SAME. You should be even more pleased in the greater variety and selection you'll have if you purchase Blu-ray.
Toshiba hasn't ensured anything in terms of cost savings to anyone but themselves as a manufacturer, so just take Murch's FUD for what it is.
Toshiba hasn't ensured anything in terms of cost savings to anyone but themselves as a manufacturer, so just take Murch's FUD for what it is.
Oh really? Say I purchase a new line to make Blu-Ray media and things change for my company preventing us from producing Blu-Ray media. What else can I do with that line?
As I said before and it's fact. If you purchase a HD DVD line and find that HD DVD simply isn't in the cards for you that line still can hammer out DVD-9 discs to the cows come home.
Toshiba hasn't ensured anything in terms of cost savings to anyone but themselves as a manufacturer, so just take Murch's FUD for what it is.
I'll go off of the company's track records. Sony already has a bad history of jacking up price on media. Toshiba ... I don't know enough about. But looking at it with a joe user eye... comparing the 2 pieces of media... one looks at LOT cheaper to manufacture... So even if prices are high now... they have more possibility to lower quicker than blu-ray.
The vast majority of television in the US market are still standard definition CRT. Most people buying HD sets today are buying HD ready extended definition or 1366 x 768. How many people will be willing or can afford 1080 HD?
At this point for most people who could afford a 1080 HD television the price of Blu-ray would not be much of a factor if the quality and selection were much better.
Hypothetically its possible most people will only be able to watch HD disks on their computer. What if Microsoft only did support HD-DVD and not support Blu-ray at all?
That could splinter the market between those who could afford a 1080 television and may prefer Blu-ray to those who cannot afford the television but are able to watch HD-DVD on their computer. Its possible BR and HD could both find their own niche within the overall HDTV niche.
vastly different Numerical Aperture means backwards support for Red Laser DVD more "bolt on"
Thin protection layer .1mm requires Caddy or spincoat/thinfilm which increases costs
BD-Java,while being more mature, is a format that must be compiled to view.
More "Bolt on" heh? Please explain what this is supposed to mean as a con. Regardless, the "vastly different numerical aperature" is an engineering step that allows for more storage space per layer in a BD disc and all Blu-ray drives are fully backward compatible with DVD, and CD so I'm not sure how this is a con.
Nothing requires a caddy on the Blu-ray disc as all will contain a specialized, highly durable coat (Durabis or other equivalent) making them more durable than existing DVD and HD DVD discs. Regarding costs, it indeed costs more for the application of the spincoat to a Blu-ray disc but this cost is for the MANUFACTURER. The cost to the CONSUMER is the SAME as HD DVD. Again, don't know why this is a con, as better durability with the SAME COST TO THE CONSUMER is preferrable.
BD-Java's use and the fact that is compiled a con? Even though it is widely used, and most are familiar in working with it? Not to mention it provides robustness and flexibility that you more than often find in a programming language rather than just a proprieary Microsoft markup language. Doesn't make sense to me, besides does the end user really care if it was compiled or not?
Quote:
HD-DVD Pros
---------
Shared disc structure and similiar numerical aperture makes backwards compat easier. HD DVD lines can press DVD-9 and the OPU can be combined saving space and money.
iHD is an XML based format that doesn't require compiling and is more efficient for space.
Protection layer is .6mm the same as regular DVD. Not special coating or caddies are required. Bonding of discs is exactly like that of DVD so making 30GB DL discs is trivial and inexpensive.
Again savings are passed on to the manufacturer in this instance as COST TO THE CONSUMER is the SAME AS BLU-RAY. If anything, this is a con as given your logic, we SHOULD be seeing a cheaper product with HD DVD, but we are not.
iHD is and XML based format that is proprietary to Microsoft, that is they choose as to what the XML tags will do, how they are defined etc. More than likely, it is a more limited solution in terms of capability, robustness, and flexibility when compared to BD-Java. Regarding space efficiency, does anyone have a comparison of how much space a compiled .exe would be with only the necessarey classes, objects, etc would be compared to the space needed for iHD? I think this is still open to debate and most definitely not a sure thing.
Protection provided by HD DVD is once again the same (.6mm) as current DVD technology. Nice to see that the HD DVD group is looking out for us consumers in the durability sector, especially since now that same scratch we get on our DVD discs today will effect a whole lot more data, potentially rendering our HD DVD disc even more useless. This is definitely a con in my mind. Something could have been done regarding better durability, but again it seems the HD DVD group is more concerned in saving themselves cash rather than concentrating on putting out the highest quality product they can.
Oh really? Say I purchase a new line to make Blu-Ray media and things change for my company preventing us from producing Blu-Ray media. What else can I do with that line?
As I said before and it's fact. If you purchase a HD DVD line and find that HD DVD simply isn't in the cards for you that line still can hammer out DVD-9 discs to the cows come home.
Yes, really. Again, in your example, you are explaining the perspective of a MANUFACTURER of discs and the costs associated to them. Even with the above example, this doesn't mean that all of a sudden consumers will have to pay higher prices for discs.
We are talking about the CONSUMER here bud and the cost to them, focus. It is the same for Blu-ray and HD DVD.
Regarding costs, it indeed costs more for the application of the spincoat to a Blu-ray disc but this cost is for the MANUFACTURER. The cost to the CONSUMER is the SAME as HD DVD.
The manufacturer does not normally absorb these costs they pass them on to the consumer.
Quote:
BD-Java's use and the fact that is compiled a con?
I agree this is not a con for me. I'm always for shared standards and am leery of MS and their protocols.
Java is widely used and should not be a big deal to compile.
More "Bolt on" heh? Please explain what this is supposed to mean as a con. Regardless, the "vastly different numerical aperature" is an engineering step that allows for more storage space per layer in a BD disc and all Blu-ray drives are fully backward compatible with DVD, and CD so I'm not sure how this is a con.
Blu-Ray's numerical aperture is .85, HD DVD is .65 and DVD is .65. Sounds like numbers on a page but a .85 NA means the lens assembly is FAR closer to the actual surface than DVD or HD DVD. This allows Sony to use a decently spec'd laser that can read down through the .1mm protection layer and beyond. They could have used a NA closer to HD DVD or DVD but imagine how powerful that laser would have had to be. This incongruency between NA's means that adding .60 NA support is difficult as the OPU would have to contain two lens that are at different lengths from the media. Not easy. HD DVD NA is so close it's fairly easy to encompass support for both formats in the same OPU and the disc structure is the same. This is all by design of course.
You are incorrect about "All Blu-Ray drives are fully backward compatible" I can prove it with the Sony BD player
I'll go off of the company's track records. Sony already has a bad history of jacking up price on media. Toshiba ... I don't know enough about. But looking at it with a joe user eye... comparing the 2 pieces of media... one looks at LOT cheaper to manufacture... So even if prices are high now... they have more possibility to lower quicker than blu-ray.
And I go off current prices of Blu-ray and HD DVD media. Go google it, and you'll find that the price of Blu-ray disc movies and HD DVD movies will be the same.
Moreover, you'll be pleased to know then that Sony isn't the only one selling Blu-ray media. You don't like Sony, then get discs from Panasonic, TDK, Philips, Verbatim or if you are talking movies, get it from Fox, Disney, Lionsgate, Paramount, Warner, or MGM. How about all their track records?
Regarding your theory of HD DVD having more a possibility to lower prices quicker than Blu-ray, it is quite the opposite. Blu-ray has much more support from the Hollywood industry, from the Porn industry, from the IT industry, and from the consumer electronics industry. Given this information, I refer you to the concept called economies of scale...
Nothing requires a caddy on the Blu-ray disc as all will contain a specialized, highly durable coat (Durabis or other equivalent) making them more durable than existing DVD and HD DVD discs. Regarding costs, it indeed costs more for the application of the spincoat to a Blu-ray disc but this cost is for the MANUFACTURER. The cost to the CONSUMER is the SAME as HD DVD. Again, don't know why this is a con, as better durability with the SAME COST TO THE CONSUMER is preferrable.
Yes I could give had credit in the Pro's for this as well because they took something that was a weakness (thin protection layer} and strengthened it beyond that of DVD or HD DVD. The only problem and the reason why I don't list it as a Pro is because it's not really a choice. Sony had to do this or utilize Caddies for protection from scratches. At any rate any type of spincoat or film requires another processing step which reduces yields on the production line. So the requirement of some sort of coating means a costlier disc which supports my statement about HD DVD ensuring cheaper price of entry. The cost to the consumer may be the same but this is with a subsidy from Sony for major studios. My point will become explictly clear when Discmakers or some other company begins to offer HD DVD and Blu-Ray replication. It is there when small studios are shelling out for discs that you will see the price chasm between HD DVD and Blu-Ray.
BD-Java's use and the fact that is compiled a con? Even though it is widely used, and most are familiar in working with it? Not to mention it provides robustness and flexibility that you more than often find in a programming language rather than just a proprieary Microsoft markup language. Doesn't make sense to me, besides does the end user really care if it was compiled or not?
As I said Java is mature. However one has to love the idea of having a Dynamic XML based interactive layer that doesn't come with the class bloat the Java does. Don't forget it's not just MS that designed it, Disney was an equal partner. Being that it's not a bytecode based format when you're authoring in iHD you won't have to do the whole ...compile to see your work and debug. Ask any of the programmers on the board how fast they'd be if they could make changes and view them without compiling.
As for durability I've never had a disc that wouldn't play. So I'm pretty happy with my DVDs. However I don't abuse my discs either.
We are talking about the CONSUMER here bud and the cost to them, focus. It is the same for Blu-ray and HD DVD.
Isn't that rather myopic? Sure I'm concerned as a consumer about pricing. However I'm also keen on knowing what something is going to cost me as the "little guy". I've read about price haggling down to the penny for production deals. I think it's a bit daft to assume that companies won't care about a nickel more per disc for Blu-Ray when you're talking about pressing thousands if not millions of discs.
In the future I will pose as a prospective client needing 25 thousand disc replicated for a 60 minute HD show. I'm going to provide you guys my quote number for Blu-Ray and HD DVD once I can find a company that does both. I'm not going to be surpised if I get a much higher Blu-Ray quote if you catch my drift.
Comments
Originally posted by vinea
Your source is a post on AVS Forum who got it from a "reliable source"?
Vinea
Go read the post again. That's a direct quote from Robert owner of Value Electronics who's sold a bunch of HD DVD himself and would know at the very least what his allocation is.
Now let me see....trust Marzetta7's 12k comment or trust a store owner who routinely is invited to events and is trusted. I think I'll go with the store owner as the more reputable source. Robert was also the same gentleman that was looking for quotes on doing a small Jazz disc in HD and found that his Blu-Ray quote was like 4x that of HD DVD. I couldn't find any particulars but that sounds about right. You and I won't get any subsidy from Sony because we're not a major studio and thus we'll pay full price.
Hahahahahahaha!! Nice, a post that contains a number some guy pulls out his arse. If they have sold 50,000, you'd think Toshiba would be tooting its horn by now wouldn't you?
Robert isn't an HD DVD fanboy. He's already stated that he's going to sell Blu Ray as well. As a store owner he's just a bit better at giving the "real" picture versus Blu-Ray fanboys like yourself like that to spin and deliver half truths like in the Media Centre thread. I think most reasonable people would be a semi insider like Robert over the rantings of someone who's not connected. Robert just got back from Media Tech last week and sat on some panels for discussion...what'd you do? Oh yeah...made a couple of posts at blu-ray.com's forums. Kind of pales in comparison mmmmmm'kay.
Blu-ray Disc is one of two new optical-disc formats vying to replace DVD for HD (high-definition) content. Blu-ray Disc and the competing HD-DVD format aren't compatible, so consumers face a choice between the two or waiting until a clear victor emerges. BenQ has put its weight behind Blu-ray Disc, but Lee said its support isn't necessarily exclusive.
"I believe eventually we will have to support both," he said. Lee also expects a multi-drive that can read and write both of the new formats to be available in the future. "Just look at the history of the DVD standard. DVD+, DVD-, DVD-RAM and eventually DVD Multi," he said, referring to drives that support all three formats.
.
Pretty much confirms what I've always expected. CE vendors will align with a particular format until it becomes clear that both formats will get the necessary traction. They will then move to support the over format. Once again we read about the possibility of a Universal Player. That's good news.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Go read the post again. That's a direct quote from Robert owner of Value Electronics who's sold a bunch of HD DVD himself and would know at the very least what his allocation is.
Now let me see....trust Marzetta7's 12k comment or trust a store owner who routinely is invited to events and is trusted.
http://uk.gear.ign.com/articles/709/709082p1.html
http://gear.ign.com/articles/705/705157p1.html
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6332337.html
Yah, I'm going to believe that this guy got 550 units in his first two allocations and got an additional 3 allocations afterwards. Right, a guy with one store and a web storefront got half the same number of units (300+250) initially allocated to all of Japan and 2.5% of all units originally allocated to the US.
I don't know Robert from Adam and he doesn't seem all that well regarded on AVS.
Why is he any more credible than this guy?
Really, well i don't know where you get your info for Best Buy. But i work for the company have access to all inventory screens (RSS) for the entire company. My territory & district haven't received but one unit per store since launch. thats about 52 additional units. so i don't know where this stock pile is. maybe it's in a warehouse in iraq next to sadaam's weapons of mass destruction.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7774514
I can back up my findings because i have access to company wide inventory screens. You are going by allocation numbers you got from some "unknown" source close to you. Also, allocating and actually inbound and on hand are entirely different things. A company can make allocations all day long, an allocation is just an order to fill. If they never actually ship the allocation then it's just a broken promise. Thinking that Toshiba could ship 300,000 units by years end is a pipe dream.
"Tina Tuccillo, vice president of marketing communications for Toshiba, says the company expects to sell 30,000 HD-DVD players in the first three months after they ship"
so in the first 3 months only 30k then in the following 4 they are going to crank out an additional 270,000 haha...okay!
for the full atricle read here:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124961,00.asp
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post7778071
I should believe someone that claims to know what BB is selling over a guy who claims he works for BB and can see the numbers. On the internet?
Right, and an apple employee told me at a bar...
Vinea
Also... for those FIRMLY ENTRENCHED in one camp or another (you know who you are) I'd LOVE to hear (in short bullet format if possible) the EXACT reasons why you don't like X but love Y (and vice versa)
BR Pros
---------
aaa
bbb
ccc
BR Cons
----------
aaa
bbb
ccc
HD-DVD Pros
---------
aaa
bbb
ccc
HD-DVD Cons
----------
aaa
bbb
ccc
PLEASE limit your answers to KNOWN FACTS (others will correct you if you don't) and try you best not to dive head first into using fud ESPECIALLY when you know its FUD.
I'd really love to read some straight up (short) answers from the faithful.
This is YOUR chance to CONVINCE ME to join YOUR CAUSE!
Dave
P.S. Oh and 'just because I like it better'.... all be it a valid response would be considered by many people here an uneducated, negative and perhaps even a pig headed response by most people hear. Remember folks this is a movie player/recorder NOT an OS (where because I like it better would indeed be a valid answer for Mac OS users)
Robert's rep is just fine AVS he call'em like he seems them. He doesn't carry a torch for either format. When Blu-Ray comes he'll sell as many of those as he can.
Toshiba doesn't divulge sales numbers but their certainly going to be higher than Marzetta7's 12k quote. If Best Buy has 900 plus stores and each store gets an allocation of 3 say 4-5 times then Best Buy alone will have sold over 12K. Now add Walmart, Crutchfield, Tweeter, ValueElectronics and other stores and it's obvious that the 12k number posted was FUD.
I should believe someone that claims to know what BB is selling over a guy who claims he works for BB and can see the numbers. On the internet?
Believe who you want. This is America.
---------
50GB DL discs
Studio advantage
More established CE Vendors
BR Cons
----------
vastly different Numerical Aperture means backwards support for Red Laser DVD more "bolt on"
Thin protection layer .1mm requires Caddy or spincoat/thinfilm which increases costs
BD-Java,while being more mature, is a format that must be compiled to view.
HD-DVD Pros
---------
Shared disc structure and similiar numerical aperture makes backwards compat easier. HD DVD lines can press DVD-9 and the OPU can be combined saving space and money.
iHD is an XML based format that doesn't require compiling and is more efficient for space.
Protection layer is .6mm the same as regular DVD. Not special coating or caddies are required. Bonding of discs is exactly like that of DVD so making 30GB DL discs is trivial and inexpensive.
HD-DVD Cons
----------
Lack of established CE vendors as compared to Blu-Ray.
30GB could be constraining if lossless codecs are used(7.1 TrueHD takes up 18Mbps for audio)
Studio support is half that of Blu-Ray.
Recording formats are lagging. Blu-Ray started as a recording format first.
-----------------------------------------------------------
As I see it the battle really boils down to cost and movie availability. Sony has ensured that Blu-Ray has a large advantage in movie availability. Toshiba has ensured that HD DVD is the least costly format to get into.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Sony has ensured that Blu-Ray has a large advantage in movie availability. Toshiba has ensured that HD DVD is the least costly format to get into.
For me, as a consumer, it boils down to cost. If I have to pay mroe than $20 for a movie... I'm OUT. As greedy as the Movie Industry is, I can see them charging 30-40 bucks just for a normal blu-ray movie. No thank you.
Originally posted by emig647
For me, as a consumer, it boils down to cost. If I have to pay mroe than $20 for a movie... I'm OUT. As greedy as the Movie Industry is, I can see them charging 30-40 bucks just for a normal blu-ray movie. No thank you.
Well, if cost is what it boils down to for you, then you'll be pleased to know that both Blu-ray and HD DVD discs COST THE SAME. You should be even more pleased in the greater variety and selection you'll have if you purchase Blu-ray.
Toshiba hasn't ensured anything in terms of cost savings to anyone but themselves as a manufacturer, so just take Murch's FUD for what it is.
Toshiba hasn't ensured anything in terms of cost savings to anyone but themselves as a manufacturer, so just take Murch's FUD for what it is.
Oh really? Say I purchase a new line to make Blu-Ray media and things change for my company preventing us from producing Blu-Ray media. What else can I do with that line?
As I said before and it's fact. If you purchase a HD DVD line and find that HD DVD simply isn't in the cards for you that line still can hammer out DVD-9 discs to the cows come home.
Originally posted by marzetta7
Toshiba hasn't ensured anything in terms of cost savings to anyone but themselves as a manufacturer, so just take Murch's FUD for what it is.
I'll go off of the company's track records. Sony already has a bad history of jacking up price on media. Toshiba ... I don't know enough about. But looking at it with a joe user eye... comparing the 2 pieces of media... one looks at LOT cheaper to manufacture... So even if prices are high now... they have more possibility to lower quicker than blu-ray.
The vast majority of television in the US market are still standard definition CRT. Most people buying HD sets today are buying HD ready extended definition or 1366 x 768. How many people will be willing or can afford 1080 HD?
At this point for most people who could afford a 1080 HD television the price of Blu-ray would not be much of a factor if the quality and selection were much better.
Hypothetically its possible most people will only be able to watch HD disks on their computer. What if Microsoft only did support HD-DVD and not support Blu-ray at all?
That could splinter the market between those who could afford a 1080 television and may prefer Blu-ray to those who cannot afford the television but are able to watch HD-DVD on their computer. Its possible BR and HD could both find their own niche within the overall HDTV niche.
BR Cons
----------
vastly different Numerical Aperture means backwards support for Red Laser DVD more "bolt on"
Thin protection layer .1mm requires Caddy or spincoat/thinfilm which increases costs
BD-Java,while being more mature, is a format that must be compiled to view.
More "Bolt on" heh? Please explain what this is supposed to mean as a con. Regardless, the "vastly different numerical aperature" is an engineering step that allows for more storage space per layer in a BD disc and all Blu-ray drives are fully backward compatible with DVD, and CD so I'm not sure how this is a con.
Nothing requires a caddy on the Blu-ray disc as all will contain a specialized, highly durable coat (Durabis or other equivalent) making them more durable than existing DVD and HD DVD discs. Regarding costs, it indeed costs more for the application of the spincoat to a Blu-ray disc but this cost is for the MANUFACTURER. The cost to the CONSUMER is the SAME as HD DVD. Again, don't know why this is a con, as better durability with the SAME COST TO THE CONSUMER is preferrable.
BD-Java's use and the fact that is compiled a con? Even though it is widely used, and most are familiar in working with it? Not to mention it provides robustness and flexibility that you more than often find in a programming language rather than just a proprieary Microsoft markup language. Doesn't make sense to me, besides does the end user really care if it was compiled or not?
HD-DVD Pros
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Shared disc structure and similiar numerical aperture makes backwards compat easier. HD DVD lines can press DVD-9 and the OPU can be combined saving space and money.
iHD is an XML based format that doesn't require compiling and is more efficient for space.
Protection layer is .6mm the same as regular DVD. Not special coating or caddies are required. Bonding of discs is exactly like that of DVD so making 30GB DL discs is trivial and inexpensive.
Again savings are passed on to the manufacturer in this instance as COST TO THE CONSUMER is the SAME AS BLU-RAY. If anything, this is a con as given your logic, we SHOULD be seeing a cheaper product with HD DVD, but we are not.
iHD is and XML based format that is proprietary to Microsoft, that is they choose as to what the XML tags will do, how they are defined etc. More than likely, it is a more limited solution in terms of capability, robustness, and flexibility when compared to BD-Java. Regarding space efficiency, does anyone have a comparison of how much space a compiled .exe would be with only the necessarey classes, objects, etc would be compared to the space needed for iHD? I think this is still open to debate and most definitely not a sure thing.
Protection provided by HD DVD is once again the same (.6mm) as current DVD technology. Nice to see that the HD DVD group is looking out for us consumers in the durability sector, especially since now that same scratch we get on our DVD discs today will effect a whole lot more data, potentially rendering our HD DVD disc even more useless. This is definitely a con in my mind. Something could have been done regarding better durability, but again it seems the HD DVD group is more concerned in saving themselves cash rather than concentrating on putting out the highest quality product they can.
Originally posted by hmurchison
Oh really? Say I purchase a new line to make Blu-Ray media and things change for my company preventing us from producing Blu-Ray media. What else can I do with that line?
As I said before and it's fact. If you purchase a HD DVD line and find that HD DVD simply isn't in the cards for you that line still can hammer out DVD-9 discs to the cows come home.
Yes, really. Again, in your example, you are explaining the perspective of a MANUFACTURER of discs and the costs associated to them. Even with the above example, this doesn't mean that all of a sudden consumers will have to pay higher prices for discs.
We are talking about the CONSUMER here bud and the cost to them, focus. It is the same for Blu-ray and HD DVD.
Regarding costs, it indeed costs more for the application of the spincoat to a Blu-ray disc but this cost is for the MANUFACTURER. The cost to the CONSUMER is the SAME as HD DVD.
The manufacturer does not normally absorb these costs they pass them on to the consumer.
BD-Java's use and the fact that is compiled a con?
I agree this is not a con for me. I'm always for shared standards and am leery of MS and their protocols.
Java is widely used and should not be a big deal to compile.
More "Bolt on" heh? Please explain what this is supposed to mean as a con. Regardless, the "vastly different numerical aperature" is an engineering step that allows for more storage space per layer in a BD disc and all Blu-ray drives are fully backward compatible with DVD, and CD so I'm not sure how this is a con.
Blu-Ray's numerical aperture is .85, HD DVD is .65 and DVD is .65. Sounds like numbers on a page but a .85 NA means the lens assembly is FAR closer to the actual surface than DVD or HD DVD. This allows Sony to use a decently spec'd laser that can read down through the .1mm protection layer and beyond. They could have used a NA closer to HD DVD or DVD but imagine how powerful that laser would have had to be. This incongruency between NA's means that adding .60 NA support is difficult as the OPU would have to contain two lens that are at different lengths from the media. Not easy. HD DVD NA is so close it's fairly easy to encompass support for both formats in the same OPU and the disc structure is the same. This is all by design of course.
You are incorrect about "All Blu-Ray drives are fully backward compatible" I can prove it with the Sony BD player
Try and find CD support on Sony's BDP-S1 page
$1800 Pioneer Elite player doesn't support CDs
Multi-Format Playback: The BDP-HD1 supports playback of BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE, DVD-Video, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, and DVD+RW media.
No CD playback to be found. What exactly did you mean by "Fully"?
Originally posted by emig647
I'll go off of the company's track records. Sony already has a bad history of jacking up price on media. Toshiba ... I don't know enough about. But looking at it with a joe user eye... comparing the 2 pieces of media... one looks at LOT cheaper to manufacture... So even if prices are high now... they have more possibility to lower quicker than blu-ray.
And I go off current prices of Blu-ray and HD DVD media. Go google it, and you'll find that the price of Blu-ray disc movies and HD DVD movies will be the same.
Moreover, you'll be pleased to know then that Sony isn't the only one selling Blu-ray media. You don't like Sony, then get discs from Panasonic, TDK, Philips, Verbatim or if you are talking movies, get it from Fox, Disney, Lionsgate, Paramount, Warner, or MGM. How about all their track records?
Regarding your theory of HD DVD having more a possibility to lower prices quicker than Blu-ray, it is quite the opposite. Blu-ray has much more support from the Hollywood industry, from the Porn industry, from the IT industry, and from the consumer electronics industry. Given this information, I refer you to the concept called economies of scale...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale
To sum it up, with more output, that is units being Blu-ray, Blu-ray will have a greater possiblility of lowering price in the future.
Nothing requires a caddy on the Blu-ray disc as all will contain a specialized, highly durable coat (Durabis or other equivalent) making them more durable than existing DVD and HD DVD discs. Regarding costs, it indeed costs more for the application of the spincoat to a Blu-ray disc but this cost is for the MANUFACTURER. The cost to the CONSUMER is the SAME as HD DVD. Again, don't know why this is a con, as better durability with the SAME COST TO THE CONSUMER is preferrable.
Yes I could give had credit in the Pro's for this as well because they took something that was a weakness (thin protection layer} and strengthened it beyond that of DVD or HD DVD. The only problem and the reason why I don't list it as a Pro is because it's not really a choice. Sony had to do this or utilize Caddies for protection from scratches. At any rate any type of spincoat or film requires another processing step which reduces yields on the production line. So the requirement of some sort of coating means a costlier disc which supports my statement about HD DVD ensuring cheaper price of entry. The cost to the consumer may be the same but this is with a subsidy from Sony for major studios. My point will become explictly clear when Discmakers or some other company begins to offer HD DVD and Blu-Ray replication. It is there when small studios are shelling out for discs that you will see the price chasm between HD DVD and Blu-Ray.
BD-Java's use and the fact that is compiled a con? Even though it is widely used, and most are familiar in working with it? Not to mention it provides robustness and flexibility that you more than often find in a programming language rather than just a proprieary Microsoft markup language. Doesn't make sense to me, besides does the end user really care if it was compiled or not?
As I said Java is mature. However one has to love the idea of having a Dynamic XML based interactive layer that doesn't come with the class bloat the Java does. Don't forget it's not just MS that designed it, Disney was an equal partner. Being that it's not a bytecode based format when you're authoring in iHD you won't have to do the whole ...compile to see your work and debug. Ask any of the programmers on the board how fast they'd be if they could make changes and view them without compiling.
As for durability I've never had a disc that wouldn't play. So I'm pretty happy with my DVDs. However I don't abuse my discs either.
We are talking about the CONSUMER here bud and the cost to them, focus. It is the same for Blu-ray and HD DVD.
Isn't that rather myopic? Sure I'm concerned as a consumer about pricing. However I'm also keen on knowing what something is going to cost me as the "little guy". I've read about price haggling down to the penny for production deals. I think it's a bit daft to assume that companies won't care about a nickel more per disc for Blu-Ray when you're talking about pressing thousands if not millions of discs.
In the future I will pose as a prospective client needing 25 thousand disc replicated for a 60 minute HD show. I'm going to provide you guys my quote number for Blu-Ray and HD DVD once I can find a company that does both. I'm not going to be surpised if I get a much higher Blu-Ray quote if you catch my drift.