Stuff gets better with time. Sooner or later companies get it right.
It's also a matter of tech. advances, and component price drops.
The first company that comes up with a phone that can do everything, do it well, and do it easily, so that it doesn't look, or act complex, will have a major hit on its hands.
after that, everyone else will copy the concept.
It might take a few years for it to trickle down, but it will.
Apple can't afford that to happen. They have to stay in front. If it means an Apple phone, fine.
But, it will have to be a smartphone. That's the way things are going. Neither, we, or they, can ignore that.
If Apple could get a mobile version of OS X on a phone that wasn't slow, requires large amounts of RAM, and a powerful cpu just to get going, the way MS Mobile phones do, it could be a winner. Add iTunes Mobile as well.
The talk about Apple coming out with a "virtual" phone network, a la Virgin, and others, might work, but, it limits their phones to their own network.
If Apple could get a mobile version of OS X on a phone that wasn't slow, requires large amounts of RAM, and a powerful cpu just to get going, the way MS Mobile phones do, it could be a winner. Add iTunes Mobile as well.
I think they'd be mad to do it. OSX just can't do realtime and that's what's needed to beat Symbian.
Symbian now runs everything on one chip and costs $2.41 per phone to licence. Unless Apple have been secretly working on a RTOS OSX kernel for the last few years then they're at a distinct disadvantage. They could of course try and persuade us that their premium phones are better than Symbian phones from Nokia and SE, and better than Windows Mobile but they're coming late to the party.
WTF does a Disney-branded MP3 player have to do with Sony Ericsson phones?
Someone please enlighten me.
IMO what olds back phone/mp3 devices is the UI. iTunes is what sells iPods. If apple were to make an iTunes phone, I think they could make it the leader of the pack and make it very successful. The UI is as important as the sleek industrial design.
Stuff gets better with time. Sooner or later companies get it right.
It's also a matter of tech. advances, and component price drops.
The first company that comes up with a phone that can do everything, do it well, and do it easily, so that it doesn't look, or act complex, will have a major hit on its hands.
after that, everyone else will copy the concept.
It might take a few years for it to trickle down, but it will.
Apple can't afford that to happen. They have to stay in front. If it means an Apple phone, fine.
But, it will have to be a smartphone. That's the way things are going. Neither, we, or they, can ignore that.
If Apple could get a mobile version of OS X on a phone that wasn't slow, requires large amounts of RAM, and a powerful cpu just to get going, the way MS Mobile phones do, it could be a winner. Add iTunes Mobile as well.
The talk about Apple coming out with a "virtual" phone network, a la Virgin, and others, might work, but, it limits their phones to their own network.
I agree totally. Apple can't rest and just make a smaller iPod. The competition will catch up. Must break new ground even if they make mistakes.
I think they'd be mad to do it. OSX just can't do realtime and that's what's needed to beat Symbian.
Symbian now runs everything on one chip and costs $2.41 per phone to licence. Unless Apple have been secretly working on a RTOS OSX kernel for the last few years then they're at a distinct disadvantage. They could of course try and persuade us that their premium phones are better than Symbian phones from Nokia and SE, and better than Windows Mobile but they're coming late to the party.
We don't know WHAT Apple is doing.
How many times has it been said that they were working on something or other, only to find that they apparently haven't been?or have been?
After the move to x86, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss something like this. It's small beans compared to the switchover.
Apple could have easily been working on this since they first tried to buy Palm in 1999.
Their handwriting program, Inkwell, has no discernible purpose, other than for either a tablet computer, or a smartphone.
Tablet computers have, so far, been a bomb in the marketplace, but smartphones have been a phenomenon.
[B]IMO what olds back phone/mp3 devices is the UI.
And that has to do with SE phones how? Remember, a phone UI is different from an MP3 player UI. They do different things. Have different uses.
Quote:
iTunes is what sells iPods.
No it isn't. Music is what sells iPods. iTunes is music, but so are CDs, and at a much higher rate than iTunes music.
Quote:
If apple were to make an iTunes phone, I think they could make it the leader of the pack and make it very successful. The UI is as important as the sleek industrial design.
Apple made an iTunes phone. It was a fad. Anyone telling you Apple didn't make an iTunes phone is blindly believing that Motorola had a free hand at design, UI, and usability when they designed ROKR.
Apple made an iTunes phone. It was a fad. Anyone telling you Apple didn't make an iTunes phone is blindly believing that Motorola had a free hand at design, UI, and usability when they designed ROKR.
I don't think we can say that. No doubt Apple had a hand in it. But that might have been limited to getting their software to work, and specifying the 100 song limit.
Other than that, we simply don't know.
The SLVR is getting better reviews. I don't think that Apple had any more to do with that either.
And that has to do with SE phones how? Remember, a phone UI is different from an MP3 player UI. They do different things. Have different uses.
No it isn't. Music is what sells iPods. iTunes is music, but so are CDs, and at a much higher rate than iTunes music.
Apple made an iTunes phone. It was a fad. Anyone telling you Apple didn't make an iTunes phone is blindly believing that Motorola had a free hand at design, UI, and usability when they designed ROKR.
Cameras and phones do different things, yet are combined into one device. I still contend that a phone/Mp3 player can be combined into one device and be commercially sucessful. I wouldn't personally be interested in such a device, but I bet a lot of teens and young adults would. It just needs a slick user friendly interface. The kind of thing Apple does well.
I disagree. I have iPods and windows Mp3 players. iTunes is what separates the two.
So the first attempt failed. Newtons originally failed, but look at the market they eventually created. Sure PDAs are on the decline, but at one time were immensely popular.
With 4GB of memory - incidentally, just what iPod nano's top at. And it has a phone.
You're damn right Apple has nothing to compete with it. Not that it should, anyway.
I don't doubt that this Sony has nice specs. And I happen to think it's quite a good looking piece of hardware. But buying it will still be based, for the majority, on whether they want to buy a phone or not.
I think people forget how much momentum the iPod has in this market. For non geeks, it is often the case that they are literally unaware that there is even an alternative to the iPod.
I don't doubt that this Sony has nice specs. And I happen to think it's quite a good looking piece of hardware. But buying it will still be based, for the majority, on whether they want to buy a phone or not.
I think people forget how much momentum the iPod has in this market. For non geeks, it is often the case that they are literally unaware that there is even an alternative to the iPod.
I do think that convergence is at work here though.
While Jobs pooh pooh'd convergence, Apple is swiftly moving towards it.
People are wrong if they think that it's impossible to make an all around device work well. It takes the proper understanding of what will appeal to the most people. Companies are moving heky jerky towards that.
The iPod itself shows that a multi-purpose device can work well, and be popular.
The iTunes phone (Rokkr) wasn't popular because it simply wasn't a good, stylish phone. It was also limited, by Apple, to 100 songs. The SLVR is a better phone by most accounts, and it's also stylish. It's still limited to 100 songs. Will that kill it?
The point is that these things can be done. It just has to be done right.
Can Apple do it right? Maybe. It's a big market. I'm sure Apple would like to get a piece of it.
I think these tests with Moto are just that. Apple will see how it works. When they think they have it figured out, they will come out with something. They have time.
that's 500,000 per month when averaged out. apple does what, at least 3 million iPods per month now?
so apple's got sony's walkman phones just nipping at its heels.
it's funny, i actually forgot for a while that apple came out with an itunes phone, given how shite it was. i don't think the numbers for those are good, maybe 100,000 per month?
but now that i recall the itunes phone, yeah we can say apple is watching this thing closely, and that the r+d ball is already rolling with the itunes phone.
some iPod + iTunes Phone + SmartPhoneOSX would be awesome but again, apple is looking at profit margins there and it may not look pretty.
maybe apple is looking to make iTunes for symbian, etc. and collect license fees that way? but that could potentially support phones that compete with the ipod.
I don't doubt that this Sony has nice specs. And I happen to think it's quite a good looking piece of hardware. But buying it will still be based, for the majority, on whether they want to buy a phone or not.........I think people forget how much momentum the iPod has in this market. For non geeks, it is often the case that they are literally unaware that there is even an alternative to the iPod.
that's a bit of the conundrum. there is quite some overlap between the ipod target market and the mobile phone market. while non geeks enjoy the simplicity of the ipod they may also be quite comfortable with their mobile phones and use txt and maybe even download ringtones and wallpapers (particularly the younger phone users)....
i'm wondering how and where an apple iPhone may fit into the iPod product portfolio. maybe the iPhone as part of the evolution of the iPod...? 8)
APPL, Hurry up. Sony IS catching up....anyway, sony is now a serious menace IMHO.......UPDATE: this model [W950i] is still in development, will appear in the sommer, and a dual cameras are still considered. think about that....bye bye nanos
admittedly the walkman phones could be stealing a little bit of marketshare from apple. that model looks attractive. but for the price/ phone contract terms, complexity, lack of itunes integration, *most* people would rather buy a nano. it has potential though, but it would only make a little dent in the ipod juggernaut at this stage imho.
it's funny, i actually forgot for a while that apple came out with an itunes phone, given how shite it was. i don't think the numbers for those are good, maybe 100,000 per month? [/B]
Less than that. Moto said they'd sold 500,000.
SE sold 3 million in 2/3rds the time. The Walkman phones are good phones with good music players built in. The iTunes phone was two year old tech which quite probably would have sold even less but for it having iTunes.
admittedly the walkman phones could be stealing a little bit of marketshare from apple. that model looks attractive. but for the price/ phone contract terms, complexity, lack of itunes integration, *most* people would rather buy a nano. it has potential though, but it would only make a little dent in the ipod juggernaut at this stage imho.
That may be the case for the USA but in Europe you can get SE p910i and most of the HTC range of Windows Mobile phones free if you shop around on 1 year to 2 year contracts.
The W950 is meant to be a cheaper phone than those since they're using the new Symbian platform that runs off of a single chip - previously they had to have a CPU and another signal processor chip to run the comms stack. The Walkman phones are headed toward the mid range consumer and the software on them looks really cool and easy to use. UIQ 3.0 is nice.
Given that most people I know seem to change their phone every year, I'd expect these midrange phones to eat into nano sales. If they were gloss black they'd possible even be mistaken for a nano.
Ok. But Apple have a 40+ million iPod lead over SE. And Microsot has a billion OS lead over Crystler.
And Sony have a 100million or whatever it was lead in the Walkman.
If Apple are doing an iPhone, they're in catch up. Having a name like Apple and the iPod will go some way to market your new phone but Sony aren't short of brand recognition either and are already on to their 2nd generation of Walkman phones, based on 4-5 years of having a smartphone already on the market.
The negative press from the ROKR may not help Apple either.
Comments
Originally posted by backtomac
We bought our daughter a Disney branded mp3 player which uses windows media center. UI on it sucks compared to iTunes today.
WTF does a Disney-branded MP3 player have to do with Sony Ericsson phones?
Someone please enlighten me.
It's also a matter of tech. advances, and component price drops.
The first company that comes up with a phone that can do everything, do it well, and do it easily, so that it doesn't look, or act complex, will have a major hit on its hands.
after that, everyone else will copy the concept.
It might take a few years for it to trickle down, but it will.
Apple can't afford that to happen. They have to stay in front. If it means an Apple phone, fine.
But, it will have to be a smartphone. That's the way things are going. Neither, we, or they, can ignore that.
If Apple could get a mobile version of OS X on a phone that wasn't slow, requires large amounts of RAM, and a powerful cpu just to get going, the way MS Mobile phones do, it could be a winner. Add iTunes Mobile as well.
The talk about Apple coming out with a "virtual" phone network, a la Virgin, and others, might work, but, it limits their phones to their own network.
Originally posted by melgross
If Apple could get a mobile version of OS X on a phone that wasn't slow, requires large amounts of RAM, and a powerful cpu just to get going, the way MS Mobile phones do, it could be a winner. Add iTunes Mobile as well.
I think they'd be mad to do it. OSX just can't do realtime and that's what's needed to beat Symbian.
Symbian now runs everything on one chip and costs $2.41 per phone to licence. Unless Apple have been secretly working on a RTOS OSX kernel for the last few years then they're at a distinct disadvantage. They could of course try and persuade us that their premium phones are better than Symbian phones from Nokia and SE, and better than Windows Mobile but they're coming late to the party.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
WTF does a Disney-branded MP3 player have to do with Sony Ericsson phones?
Someone please enlighten me.
IMO what olds back phone/mp3 devices is the UI. iTunes is what sells iPods. If apple were to make an iTunes phone, I think they could make it the leader of the pack and make it very successful. The UI is as important as the sleek industrial design.
Originally posted by melgross
Stuff gets better with time. Sooner or later companies get it right.
It's also a matter of tech. advances, and component price drops.
The first company that comes up with a phone that can do everything, do it well, and do it easily, so that it doesn't look, or act complex, will have a major hit on its hands.
after that, everyone else will copy the concept.
It might take a few years for it to trickle down, but it will.
Apple can't afford that to happen. They have to stay in front. If it means an Apple phone, fine.
But, it will have to be a smartphone. That's the way things are going. Neither, we, or they, can ignore that.
If Apple could get a mobile version of OS X on a phone that wasn't slow, requires large amounts of RAM, and a powerful cpu just to get going, the way MS Mobile phones do, it could be a winner. Add iTunes Mobile as well.
The talk about Apple coming out with a "virtual" phone network, a la Virgin, and others, might work, but, it limits their phones to their own network.
I agree totally. Apple can't rest and just make a smaller iPod. The competition will catch up. Must break new ground even if they make mistakes.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
I think they'd be mad to do it. OSX just can't do realtime and that's what's needed to beat Symbian.
Symbian now runs everything on one chip and costs $2.41 per phone to licence. Unless Apple have been secretly working on a RTOS OSX kernel for the last few years then they're at a distinct disadvantage. They could of course try and persuade us that their premium phones are better than Symbian phones from Nokia and SE, and better than Windows Mobile but they're coming late to the party.
We don't know WHAT Apple is doing.
How many times has it been said that they were working on something or other, only to find that they apparently haven't been?or have been?
After the move to x86, I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss something like this. It's small beans compared to the switchover.
Apple could have easily been working on this since they first tried to buy Palm in 1999.
Their handwriting program, Inkwell, has no discernible purpose, other than for either a tablet computer, or a smartphone.
Tablet computers have, so far, been a bomb in the marketplace, but smartphones have been a phenomenon.
I would put my bets on the latter.
Originally posted by backtomac
[B]IMO what olds back phone/mp3 devices is the UI.
And that has to do with SE phones how? Remember, a phone UI is different from an MP3 player UI. They do different things. Have different uses.
iTunes is what sells iPods.
No it isn't. Music is what sells iPods. iTunes is music, but so are CDs, and at a much higher rate than iTunes music.
If apple were to make an iTunes phone, I think they could make it the leader of the pack and make it very successful. The UI is as important as the sleek industrial design.
Apple made an iTunes phone. It was a fad. Anyone telling you Apple didn't make an iTunes phone is blindly believing that Motorola had a free hand at design, UI, and usability when they designed ROKR.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
Apple made an iTunes phone. It was a fad. Anyone telling you Apple didn't make an iTunes phone is blindly believing that Motorola had a free hand at design, UI, and usability when they designed ROKR.
I don't think we can say that. No doubt Apple had a hand in it. But that might have been limited to getting their software to work, and specifying the 100 song limit.
Other than that, we simply don't know.
The SLVR is getting better reviews. I don't think that Apple had any more to do with that either.
These are obviously Moto phones, not much more.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
And that has to do with SE phones how? Remember, a phone UI is different from an MP3 player UI. They do different things. Have different uses.
No it isn't. Music is what sells iPods. iTunes is music, but so are CDs, and at a much higher rate than iTunes music.
Apple made an iTunes phone. It was a fad. Anyone telling you Apple didn't make an iTunes phone is blindly believing that Motorola had a free hand at design, UI, and usability when they designed ROKR.
Cameras and phones do different things, yet are combined into one device. I still contend that a phone/Mp3 player can be combined into one device and be commercially sucessful. I wouldn't personally be interested in such a device, but I bet a lot of teens and young adults would. It just needs a slick user friendly interface. The kind of thing Apple does well.
I disagree. I have iPods and windows Mp3 players. iTunes is what separates the two.
So the first attempt failed. Newtons originally failed, but look at the market they eventually created. Sure PDAs are on the decline, but at one time were immensely popular.
Originally posted by Gene Clean
With 4GB of memory - incidentally, just what iPod nano's top at. And it has a phone.
You're damn right Apple has nothing to compete with it. Not that it should, anyway.
I don't doubt that this Sony has nice specs. And I happen to think it's quite a good looking piece of hardware. But buying it will still be based, for the majority, on whether they want to buy a phone or not.
I think people forget how much momentum the iPod has in this market. For non geeks, it is often the case that they are literally unaware that there is even an alternative to the iPod.
Originally posted by jouster
I don't doubt that this Sony has nice specs. And I happen to think it's quite a good looking piece of hardware. But buying it will still be based, for the majority, on whether they want to buy a phone or not.
I think people forget how much momentum the iPod has in this market. For non geeks, it is often the case that they are literally unaware that there is even an alternative to the iPod.
I do think that convergence is at work here though.
While Jobs pooh pooh'd convergence, Apple is swiftly moving towards it.
People are wrong if they think that it's impossible to make an all around device work well. It takes the proper understanding of what will appeal to the most people. Companies are moving heky jerky towards that.
The iPod itself shows that a multi-purpose device can work well, and be popular.
The iTunes phone (Rokkr) wasn't popular because it simply wasn't a good, stylish phone. It was also limited, by Apple, to 100 songs. The SLVR is a better phone by most accounts, and it's also stylish. It's still limited to 100 songs. Will that kill it?
The point is that these things can be done. It just has to be done right.
Can Apple do it right? Maybe. It's a big market. I'm sure Apple would like to get a piece of it.
I think these tests with Moto are just that. Apple will see how it works. When they think they have it figured out, they will come out with something. They have time.
sony reports 3 million walkman phones sold over 6 months.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...021400705.html
that's 500,000 per month when averaged out. apple does what, at least 3 million iPods per month now?
so apple's got sony's walkman phones just nipping at its heels.
it's funny, i actually forgot for a while that apple came out with an itunes phone, given how shite it was. i don't think the numbers for those are good, maybe 100,000 per month?
but now that i recall the itunes phone, yeah we can say apple is watching this thing closely, and that the r+d ball is already rolling with the itunes phone.
some iPod + iTunes Phone + SmartPhoneOSX would be awesome but again, apple is looking at profit margins there and it may not look pretty.
maybe apple is looking to make iTunes for symbian, etc. and collect license fees that way?
I don't doubt that this Sony has nice specs. And I happen to think it's quite a good looking piece of hardware. But buying it will still be based, for the majority, on whether they want to buy a phone or not.........I think people forget how much momentum the iPod has in this market. For non geeks, it is often the case that they are literally unaware that there is even an alternative to the iPod.
that's a bit of the conundrum. there is quite some overlap between the ipod target market and the mobile phone market. while non geeks enjoy the simplicity of the ipod they may also be quite comfortable with their mobile phones and use txt and maybe even download ringtones and wallpapers (particularly the younger phone users)....
i'm wondering how and where an apple iPhone may fit into the iPod product portfolio. maybe the iPhone as part of the evolution of the iPod...? 8)
APPL, Hurry up. Sony IS catching up....anyway, sony is now a serious menace IMHO.......UPDATE: this model [W950i] is still in development, will appear in the sommer, and a dual cameras are still considered. think about that....bye bye nanos
admittedly the walkman phones could be stealing a little bit of marketshare from apple. that model looks attractive. but for the price/ phone contract terms, complexity, lack of itunes integration, *most* people would rather buy a nano. it has potential though, but it would only make a little dent in the ipod juggernaut at this stage imho.
Originally posted by sunilraman
it's funny, i actually forgot for a while that apple came out with an itunes phone, given how shite it was. i don't think the numbers for those are good, maybe 100,000 per month? [/B]
Less than that. Moto said they'd sold 500,000.
SE sold 3 million in 2/3rds the time. The Walkman phones are good phones with good music players built in. The iTunes phone was two year old tech which quite probably would have sold even less but for it having iTunes.
Originally posted by sunilraman
admittedly the walkman phones could be stealing a little bit of marketshare from apple. that model looks attractive. but for the price/ phone contract terms, complexity, lack of itunes integration, *most* people would rather buy a nano. it has potential though, but it would only make a little dent in the ipod juggernaut at this stage imho.
That may be the case for the USA but in Europe you can get SE p910i and most of the HTC range of Windows Mobile phones free if you shop around on 1 year to 2 year contracts.
The W950 is meant to be a cheaper phone than those since they're using the new Symbian platform that runs off of a single chip - previously they had to have a CPU and another signal processor chip to run the comms stack. The Walkman phones are headed toward the mid range consumer and the software on them looks really cool and easy to use. UIQ 3.0 is nice.
Given that most people I know seem to change their phone every year, I'd expect these midrange phones to eat into nano sales. If they were gloss black they'd possible even be mistaken for a nano.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
I'd expect these midrange phones to eat into nano sales.
Not as much as it would if Apple replaced the nano with a iPhone.
Originally posted by Anders
Not as much as it would if Apple replaced the nano with a iPhone.
ok, but SE have a 3 million phone lead over Apple.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
ok, but SE have a 3 million phone lead over Apple.
Ok. But Apple have a 40+ million iPod lead over SE. And Microsot has a billion OS lead over Crystler.
Originally posted by Anders
Ok. But Apple have a 40+ million iPod lead over SE. And Microsot has a billion OS lead over Crystler.
And Sony have a 100million or whatever it was lead in the Walkman.
If Apple are doing an iPhone, they're in catch up. Having a name like Apple and the iPod will go some way to market your new phone but Sony aren't short of brand recognition either and are already on to their 2nd generation of Walkman phones, based on 4-5 years of having a smartphone already on the market.
The negative press from the ROKR may not help Apple either.