The way I see it, Apple has opened itself up for four possibilities.
1. Apple once again forgets everyone who is not a professional or casual consumer.
2. A Core 2 brother to the Mac Pro. Possibly using the same case.
3. Licensing to PC Makers for Prosumer market.
4. Second PC-like brand.
5.
opening the door for amd 4x4 to take over it will start under $1000 use cheaper ram and let you use SLI / Crossfire at full x16 in each slot. That mac can use 4 video cards but they not in SLI and likely running at x4 or x8 for the cards that are not in the main video slot.
Even if the mac pro is faster then amd 4x4. It will win on better video and more / cheaper ram.
The SATA/SAS card is stock. Look at the dirve configuration and choices. If you can figure out how to get rid of it I can select it out.
I dunno how you can add a $1389 ($520 + $869) worth of options to a $2358 computer and get anywhere close to $3200.
Sorry, I realized that too late. Still, why did you up the warranty? That added $408 worth of support that Apple doesn't offer. The dead stock warranty is better than what Apple offers even if you paid them for the AppleCare.
Edit: OK, I found the difference, the final price I get is exactly Apple's stated Dell list price - $200 instant rebate.
What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.
That's the problem lies with Apple and Mac users in general. You think everyone is either only using the internet or doing highend photoshop or what not.
Sorry, I realized that too late. Still, why did you up the warranty? That added $408 worth of support that Apple doesn't offer. The dead stock warranty is better than what Apple offers even if you paid them for the AppleCare.
I didn't touch the warranty as far as I know. You can spec a 490 to around $3400 at the cost of a drive bay (depending on if you count the apple keyboard as a multimedia keyboard and if you add the 2nd GigE card).
Which CPUs are you spec'ing?
Vinea
PS Yes, 3 yr essential plan is included and can't be deselected. 3 yr comprehensive is $50 more.
- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.
- 4 hard drives but no hardware RAID support. \ Have to depend on Mac OS X to get RAID which is got to be much slower. There must be some 3rd party PCIe cards that work with OS X.
- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
There is a market for $1000-$1500 desktops. Arguably not one that Apple will be able to compete in and still sell iMacs. One has to show that these desktops provide more total profit (margin + volume) from cannibalizing the current iMac sales...because if you put one out iMac sales will tank IMHO.
Among others. There is a large segment whose wants are not met by an all in one, but have no need for all the features of the Mac pro.
This "large" segment of users is a profitable segment and won't cannibalize iMac and Mac Pro sales? Because a $1500 Conroe tower pretty much does that.
Besides, its only $500. I would think that most companies can afford the difference if they must have expandability and most enthusiasts will save up the difference over time and buy a little later.
I agree the market exists. I disagree its all that profitable to go chasing after at the risk of the rest of the product line.
I didn't touch the warranty as far as I know. You can spec a 490 to around $3400 at the cost of a drive bay (depending on if you count the apple keyboard as a multimedia keyboard and if you add the 2nd GigE card).
Which CPUs are you spec'ing?
2x 2.66 GHZ dual core, Xeon 5150, the same as shown in the Keynote picture.
Also, the optical drive option you picked is a dual optical drive, including a CD writer plus a DVD writer.
This "large" segment of users is a profitable segment and won't cannibalize iMac and Mac Pro sales? Because a $1500 Conroe tower pretty much does that.
Besides, its only $500. I would think that most companies can afford the difference if they must have expandability and most enthusiasts will save up the difference over time and buy a little later.
I agree the market exists. I disagree its all that profitable to go chasing after at the risk of the rest of the product line.
Vinea
It outnumbers iMac users about 6 or 7 to one. It would not cannibalizing sales from the Mac Pro and iMac. It would be cannibalizing sales from PC companies like Dell and HP. Nobody seems to get that.
The comparison against the Dell isn't quite right, because Dell's support is 3 years stock (IIRC, on-site) PowerMac's was 1yr and you have to bring it or ship it to them. They Dell is using using an expensive Quadro where the Mac Pro just uses a cheaper consumer card.
I went through the pricing and could only come up with $3200 for the Dell Prec 690 for the stated specs.
Still, the hot-plug hard drives is nifty, and other things make comparison a little difficult.
The warrenty was something I brought up in the last discussion. That's a few hundred in value.
I ceded in another comment that "conductor" was a poor choice of words on my part, when I meant to say something along the lines of thermal retention.
Aluminum will heat up very quickly, but it cools down just as fast. That's why it's used a lot in bakeware rather than cookware -- where most times it's in a situation where there's surrounding or convection heat and it's just used to hold something or form a shape, as opposed to cooking it.
Conductor is the correct term. High conductivity means that it will heat up fast, and cool down fast. Copper is much better, but costs far more. Silver is slightly better than copper.
Somewhere on this board, I worked out a way to get components for a 2 x 2.00 cost about $1700 w/ decent volume discounts. Apple picks a margin between 12.5 percent and 25 percent, and that computer costs between $2000 and $2200. It'd also be the best-selling workstation ever, because Dell's margins are off the charts in the workstation market.
I have to run, but I'll re-post that config tonight.
No way is Apple going to take a margin that low. 25% is the minimum.
- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.
- 4 hard drives but no hardware RAID support. \ Have to depend on Mac OS X to get RAID which is got to be much slower. There must be some 3rd party PCIe cards that work with OS X.
- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
3rd party PCIe may need a efi bios to be able to boot form it and is there any efi pci-e cards out there?
- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.
- 4 hard drives but no hardware RAID support. \ Have to depend on Mac OS X to get RAID which is got to be much slower. There must be some 3rd party PCIe cards that work with OS X.
- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
Software RAID isn't always slower. Hardware RAID often has better fault protection though.
It outnumbers iMac users about 6 or 7 to one. It would not cannibalizing sales from the Mac Pro and iMac. It would be cannibalizing sales from PC companies like Dell and HP. Nobody seems to get that.
Your assumption is that most $1500 tower sales would go to switchers?
Why don't I quite buy that. What's the compelling sales point for a $1500 tower that is probably twice the price of a comparable Conroe based Dell? OSX?
Even cheaper, no one is likely to buy a $2.4K Apple to run Windows vs a more expensive Precision. Do you see Apple taking Precision sales away from Dell? Because I sure don't.
Well maybe a few...I won't be buying another Precision (I've got a Precision 670 and 2 380s) but I'm already a Mac fan.
Comments
where is the 1500 or less head less desk top?
people are not go to pay 2100 just to get good video with a AIO.
Also $300 to go form 1gig to 2gig what a rip.
Hopefully coming, but with Apple I wouldn't count on it.
The way I see it, Apple has opened itself up for four possibilities.
1. Apple once again forgets everyone who is not a professional or casual consumer.
2. A Core 2 brother to the Mac Pro. Possibly using the same case.
3. Licensing to PC Makers for Prosumer market.
4. Second PC-like brand.
What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.
What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.
Gamers.
Vinea
The way I see it, Apple has opened itself up for four possibilities.
1. Apple once again forgets everyone who is not a professional or casual consumer.
2. A Core 2 brother to the Mac Pro. Possibly using the same case.
3. Licensing to PC Makers for Prosumer market.
4. Second PC-like brand.
5.
opening the door for amd 4x4 to take over it will start under $1000 use cheaper ram and let you use SLI / Crossfire at full x16 in each slot. That mac can use 4 video cards but they not in SLI and likely running at x4 or x8 for the cards that are not in the main video slot.
Even if the mac pro is faster then amd 4x4. It will win on better video and more / cheaper ram.
DDR 2 is lot cheaper then FB-DIMMS
Gamers.
Vinea
Who are only interested in pro gear.
The SATA/SAS card is stock. Look at the dirve configuration and choices. If you can figure out how to get rid of it I can select it out.
I dunno how you can add a $1389 ($520 + $869) worth of options to a $2358 computer and get anywhere close to $3200.
Sorry, I realized that too late. Still, why did you up the warranty? That added $408 worth of support that Apple doesn't offer. The dead stock warranty is better than what Apple offers even if you paid them for the AppleCare.
Edit: OK, I found the difference, the final price I get is exactly Apple's stated Dell list price - $200 instant rebate.
What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.
That's the problem lies with Apple and Mac users in general. You think everyone is either only using the internet or doing highend photoshop or what not.
Sorry, I realized that too late. Still, why did you up the warranty? That added $408 worth of support that Apple doesn't offer. The dead stock warranty is better than what Apple offers even if you paid them for the AppleCare.
I didn't touch the warranty as far as I know. You can spec a 490 to around $3400 at the cost of a drive bay (depending on if you count the apple keyboard as a multimedia keyboard and if you add the 2nd GigE card).
Which CPUs are you spec'ing?
Vinea
PS Yes, 3 yr essential plan is included and can't be deselected. 3 yr comprehensive is $50 more.
Gamers.
Vinea
Among others. There is a large segment whose wants are not met by an all in one, but have no need for all the features of the Mac pro.
- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.
- 4 hard drives
- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
Who are only interested in pro gear.
Okay...mid-range gamers.
There is a market for $1000-$1500 desktops. Arguably not one that Apple will be able to compete in and still sell iMacs. One has to show that these desktops provide more total profit (margin + volume) from cannibalizing the current iMac sales...because if you put one out iMac sales will tank IMHO.
Vinea
Among others. There is a large segment whose wants are not met by an all in one, but have no need for all the features of the Mac pro.
This "large" segment of users is a profitable segment and won't cannibalize iMac and Mac Pro sales? Because a $1500 Conroe tower pretty much does that.
Besides, its only $500. I would think that most companies can afford the difference if they must have expandability and most enthusiasts will save up the difference over time and buy a little later.
I agree the market exists. I disagree its all that profitable to go chasing after at the risk of the rest of the product line.
Vinea
I didn't touch the warranty as far as I know. You can spec a 490 to around $3400 at the cost of a drive bay (depending on if you count the apple keyboard as a multimedia keyboard and if you add the 2nd GigE card).
Which CPUs are you spec'ing?
2x 2.66 GHZ dual core, Xeon 5150, the same as shown in the Keynote picture.
Also, the optical drive option you picked is a dual optical drive, including a CD writer plus a DVD writer.
Here is a print of the order page:
http://demaagd.com/gr/DellPrec590.pdf
There is a $408 difference between the Economy plan and the Essential plan that you listed in your original quote:
http://demaagd.com/gr/DellPrec590-2.pdf
I "ordered" through Dell Small Business. If you picked Gov or Large Business, the default service plan might be higher.
Edit: OK, I see the Mac Pro uses 667MHz memory, so add $40 for the 1GB 667MHz memory vs. 1GB 533MHz memory.
This "large" segment of users is a profitable segment and won't cannibalize iMac and Mac Pro sales? Because a $1500 Conroe tower pretty much does that.
Besides, its only $500. I would think that most companies can afford the difference if they must have expandability and most enthusiasts will save up the difference over time and buy a little later.
I agree the market exists. I disagree its all that profitable to go chasing after at the risk of the rest of the product line.
Vinea
It outnumbers iMac users about 6 or 7 to one. It would not cannibalizing sales from the Mac Pro and iMac. It would be cannibalizing sales from PC companies like Dell and HP. Nobody seems to get that.
The comparison against the Dell isn't quite right, because Dell's support is 3 years stock (IIRC, on-site) PowerMac's was 1yr and you have to bring it or ship it to them. They Dell is using using an expensive Quadro where the Mac Pro just uses a cheaper consumer card.
I went through the pricing and could only come up with $3200 for the Dell Prec 690 for the stated specs.
Still, the hot-plug hard drives is nifty, and other things make comparison a little difficult.
The warrenty was something I brought up in the last discussion. That's a few hundred in value.
I ceded in another comment that "conductor" was a poor choice of words on my part, when I meant to say something along the lines of thermal retention.
Aluminum will heat up very quickly, but it cools down just as fast. That's why it's used a lot in bakeware rather than cookware -- where most times it's in a situation where there's surrounding or convection heat and it's just used to hold something or form a shape, as opposed to cooking it.
Conductor is the correct term. High conductivity means that it will heat up fast, and cool down fast. Copper is much better, but costs far more. Silver is slightly better than copper.
Somewhere on this board, I worked out a way to get components for a 2 x 2.00 cost about $1700 w/ decent volume discounts. Apple picks a margin between 12.5 percent and 25 percent, and that computer costs between $2000 and $2200. It'd also be the best-selling workstation ever, because Dell's margins are off the charts in the workstation market.
I have to run, but I'll re-post that config tonight.
No way is Apple going to take a margin that low. 25% is the minimum.
Few observations:
- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.
- 4 hard drives
- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
3rd party PCIe may need a efi bios to be able to boot form it and is there any efi pci-e cards out there?
Few observations:
- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.
- 4 hard drives
- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
Software RAID isn't always slower. Hardware RAID often has better fault protection though.
It outnumbers iMac users about 6 or 7 to one. It would not cannibalizing sales from the Mac Pro and iMac. It would be cannibalizing sales from PC companies like Dell and HP. Nobody seems to get that.
Your assumption is that most $1500 tower sales would go to switchers?
Why don't I quite buy that. What's the compelling sales point for a $1500 tower that is probably twice the price of a comparable Conroe based Dell? OSX?
Even cheaper, no one is likely to buy a $2.4K Apple to run Windows vs a more expensive Precision. Do you see Apple taking Precision sales away from Dell? Because I sure don't.
Well maybe a few...I won't be buying another Precision (I've got a Precision 670 and 2 380s) but I'm already a Mac fan.
Vinea