I think pretty much what most others expect. But, I also think it's going to be difficult to figure out whether Apple will continue to use a laptop chip, such as Merom, or go to Conroe.
Conroe puts out less heat than the older G5 that Apple was using, though more than Yonah. The case was redesigned for Yonah, but it could be redone for Conroe, if Apple wants the extra oomph.
Without seeing some real tests on Merom, we won't know what the difference in processing power is between them. Merom will start out at a lower speed, and will continue at a lower speed throughout its lifetime, so Conroe will be speedier just because of that.
But, Apple might consider Merom to be fast enough for the purpose. And less power draw means a smaller power supply ? inside the case, rather than in a brick. That might be more important to them. I know that I would prefer not to have a brick.
As to when. well, Intel is pushing the release of Merom forward, as it has done with everything else, and as it is now doing with Cloverton etc.
Time is likely not an issue therefor.
I didn't think we would see a Merom based machines, laptop, or otherwise, until the forth quarter. But, now I'm not so sure.
It's becoming apparent that whatever chip Apple chooses for the next iMac will tell a lot about where the iMac is heading. If apple chooses Merom then it seems obvious that Apple will continue to use mobile chips with low power consumption and heat release in order to push the envelope on design. If they choose conroe then obviously power wins out. While the difference in performance between conroe and merom may not be too great(we won't know for sure until they are released and tested), how about the future? Conroe will be replaced by a quad core chip. We don't know what will replace Merom but it's quite conceivable that it won't be a quad core chip and a big performance gap between the desktop and mobile chips may develope. For that reason I hope Apple chooses Conroe and keeps a desktop chip in the iMac.
"Furthermore, Otellini confirmed that quad-core isn't the only processor series moved up. The CEO confirmed Merom has been moved up and is already shipping to revenue, as was reported by HKEPC (English) several days ago."
Dailytech is not the most reliable of publications, as we are familiar with here, though sometimes they come closer than others.
But, I did say thay Merom release has been moved up. It will be released in July, though I doubt very much that it's already shipping in volume, which is what shipping to revenue means.
It's becoming apparent that whatever chip Apple chooses for the next iMac will tell a lot about where the iMac is heading. If apple chooses Merom then it seems obvious that Apple will continue to use mobile chips with low power consumption and heat release in order to push the envelope on design. If they choose conroe then obviously power wins out. While the difference in performance between conroe and merom may not be too great(we won't know for sure until they are released and tested), how about the future? Conroe will be replaced by a quad core chip. We don't know what will replace Merom but it's quite conceivable that it won't be a quad core chip and a big performance gap between the desktop and mobile chips may develope. For that reason I hope Apple chooses Conroe and keeps a desktop chip in the iMac.
Yes, right. How will Apple go with this? The iMac is in a funny position in Apple's line. It must be powerful enough to do all of the work that not only those at home expect it to do, iMovie, iDVD, games (don't laugh!), but also must take on the pro work that many pro's do with machines other than the towers, and there are a LOT of them. So, it must be able to handle PS, FCP Studio, Logic Pro, and all of the pro third party software out there.
And if anyone here doubts that pro's use iMacs, well, stop it! They do, and will continue to. Not all pro's can afford a tower, believe it or not. Or, have the space for one.
But, at the same time, Apple markets these machines to a style conscious group, who places them at home, often is a conspicuous place.
As computers become more powerful, the compromises become less dire.
But, this is Apple we are talking about. And Apple has Steve, and who knows what goes on in his mind?
The case was redesigned for Yonah, but it could be redone for Conroe, if Apple wants the extra oomph.
Actually, the case was redesigned during the third iMac G5 revision, i.e. when they added the iSight. They made it thinner and the internal components less accessible.
So, if they could fit a G5 in that thin case, they'll be able to fit in a Conroe just fine.
Actually, the case was redesigned during the third iMac G5 revision, i.e. when they added the iSight. They made it thinner and the internal components less accessible...So, if they could fit a G5 in that thin case, they'll be able to fit in a Conroe just fine.
Yes, this is important to keep in mind. The ability to handle a G5 at an already slim and attractive form factor, plus cost issues we explored above, point to Conroe.
If they go for Merom in the next update, at that stage, I'd really like to have a reason why.
The iMac is in a funny position in Apple's line...
Nice post melgross. You have hit the nail on the head on the "sweet spot" that the iMac is in. It is amazing that *the* computer that was significant in Apple's turnaround, the candy iMac g3s, continues to be a "flagship" as some have suggested.
[1]It must be powerful enough to do all of the work that... those at home expect it to do, iMovie, iDVD, [Office?]...
No worries right now with Core Duo, Rosetta'd Office. Will be even more teh snappy (tm) with Conroe. 512mb ram is fine, dropping prices may see the next update or the one after that ship with 1GB standard. Don't forget built in iSight.
[2]Games (don't laugh!)
For the first time in, oh, EVER, the iMac can be taken seriously as a gaming machine. The X1600 can handle current Mac games with ease, and Bootcamp WinXP2 allows iMac users for the first time EVER to experience the latest and most exciting PC games and enjoyable medium-to-high level quality and framerates. The X1600 will also age fairly well, after a year and a half the current iMac should handle the latest games at medium-quality gameplay. While I use the term "medium" alot when talking about games and the X1600, the end-user experience is "satisfactory", and again, *unprecedented* in being able to play the latest PC titles.
[3]Take on the pro work that many pro's do with machines other than the towers, and there are a LOT of them. So, it must be able to handle PS, FCP Studio, Logic Pro, and all of the pro third party software out there.
20", Core Duo, 1gb or 2gb, DVD dual layer burning, it's definitely in the mix. Even more so when it goes Conroe.
[4]And if anyone here doubts that pro's use iMacs, well, stop it! They do, and will continue to. Not all pro's can afford a tower, believe it or not. Or, have the space for one.
There are some people in print design that will need 23" or more for layouts, as have been expressed on these boards. But for web design (caveat: here we talk about iMac G5s bought last year) and other pro work, yes, I believe iMacs are used.
The iMac Core Duo is also great for live DJ sets using Ableton, Rewire and Reason, LogicPro perhaps as well... I speak of this not just because of the profile on the infamous Sasha
(http://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/sasha/) but also because when I was making trance music on my PowerMacG5 I could not figure portability and live sets into my ambitions. The iMac Core Duo, portable, and with Conroe, the beefiness of live digital synthesis and remixing for trancemusik production, boy, opens up whole new worlds. Produce at home, pop the iMac into one of those iMac carrier bags, pop it out at the gig, set up MIDI controllers and keyboards, let's just say you can drive your car to the gig rather than taking a truck!! Pardon the hyperbole... but if you look at live acts, they can be everything like a whole stage of gear ala Chemical Brothers but for DJing and boutique dance gigs the iMac would slip in sweetly into the mix. Clubs will have the standard two vinyl turntables and two CD turntables. Throw in a midi keyboard with knobs and stuff (I've worked with M-Audio, excellent stuff, esp. their range now http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=...ardcontrollers), hook up an iMac, we'll have a nice set mixing tunes off Vinyl, off CD, and seamlessly slip in a few self-produced Tracks, even maybe playing some Synths live. Awesome. Maybe one day, when I get back on my feet, I can explore that option more...
[5]But, at the same time, Apple markets these machines to a style conscious group, who places them at home, often is a conspicuous place.
Totally. My cousin and her husband have like a pseudo-Aztec time theme in their lounge and dining area. The iMac G5 (even the squarish one with chin) looks teh sexy.
Believe it or not, a local mobile telco in my city (OMFG this is a city where I have not seen a MacBook on demo YET STILL AT ANY FRACKING APPLE RESELLER IN MY CITY) has placed three iMacs in their flagship customer service outlet for checking online billing and even checking email, I think... The iMac is a dream for interior designers that get the artistic license to incorporate them into a business (employee side or end-user side) setting.
[6]As computers become more powerful, the compromises become less dire.
[7]But, this is Apple we are talking about. And Apple has Steve, and who knows what goes on in his mind?
As long as the iMac continues to improve, gets faster chips, cost of ram and fast hard disks come down, and even if the form factor does not change, and BootCamp is improved, I'm really feelin' it today... It rocks. Yes, who knows what Steve will do, but if he does deem it worthy of his attention he'll push it further forward.
The iMac is just a nice classic piece of the Mac ecosystem - fun and exploration for the home user/ hobbyist, and a tool to learn and master for the creative pros, and overall something that can give personal enjoyment and generate income, in challenging environments.
IDEA: Imagine if the iMac became a sort of "docking station" that gives you all the goodness of what it is now, and you can sort of "pop out" a MacBookPro or some type of portable out of it. "Docking station" would be an extremely crude term for something that could be really elegant and useful. Something that goes in a slightly different direction than the "Desktop Replacement" chunky big ass laptop.
Yes, this is important to keep in mind. The ability to handle a G5 at an already slim and attractive form factor, plus cost issues we explored above, point to Conroe.
Remember that the G5 iMac had a low power G5 at around 45-50 W. Conroe, granted, it has two cores but it runs at 65 W.
Quote:
If they go for Merom in the next update, at that stage, I'd really like to have a reason why.
Too much hot in the current form factor for not so much gain in performance compared to Merom (remains to be seen though in benchmarks).
Actually, the case was redesigned during the third iMac G5 revision, i.e. when they added the iSight. They made it thinner and the internal components less accessible.
So, if they could fit a G5 in that thin case, they'll be able to fit in a Conroe just fine.
Yeah, that's right .I forgot about that. It was the mobo and such that had to be redesigned.
But, that makes it even more likely that they will find it to be suitable for Conroe, if they want to redesign the internals again.
I don;'t know where to post this, but this thread seems as good a place as any. Pricing info for Intel and AMD. The AMD pricing is not official, but seems to be what they will do on Monday. It also includes performance comparisons, and valuations.
Too much hot in the current form factor for not so much gain in performance compared to Merom (remains to be seen though in benchmarks).
There might not be a big performance gap between Merom and Conroe, although conroe clocks quite a bit higher. What happens a year from now when quad core desktop chips work their way down to mid level machines, ie iMac price level? I've seen no plans for quad core to make it to mobile chips. The technology may not be there for several years.
There might not be a big performance gap between Merom and Conroe, although conroe clocks quite a bit higher. What happens a year from now when quad core desktop chips work their way down to mid level machines, ie iMac price level? I've seen no plans for quad core to make it to mobile chips. The technology may not be there for several years.
My take on quad mobile chips are as follows:
65nm squared equals 4225 square nm.
45nm squared equals 2025 square nm.
32nm squared equals 1024 square nm.
Going by that, and the facts of life, which say that power use goes down drastically as area goes down, but that also leakage, and other inefficiencies increase. Plus the also expected improvements in processor design over the fab changeovers.
Therefore, I think it's likely that we won't see a quad 65nm fab mobile chip.
But, we might very well see one at 45nm, if heat and power aren't increased over the higher draw of the 65nm dual core models, which are at about the limit for such devices.
I'm confident that we will see four cores at 32nm, and possibly even six, though I doubt that eight will be available there.
I just read this article over at macNN that Intel "this week quietly began shipping its next-generation Core 2 Duo chips, The new Merom and Conroe processors for mobile and desktop systems (respectively) are available ahead of schedule." Hopefully Apple's is one of the companies receiving the shipments!
I just read this article over at macNN that Intel "this week quietly began shipping its next-generation Core 2 Duo chips, The new Merom and Conroe processors for mobile and desktop systems (respectively) are available ahead of schedule." Hopefully Apple's is one of the companies receiving the shipments!
I hope so too. But even more, I hope they go ahead and make their announcement and get these guys into products and the products on the market. I'm ready to purchase here.
I just read this article over at macNN that Intel "this week quietly began shipping its next-generation Core 2 Duo chips, The new Merom and Conroe processors for mobile and desktop systems (respectively) are available ahead of schedule." Hopefully Apple's is one of the companies receiving the shipments!
Yeah, it's slightly different from other articles which said that Intel was going to ship Merom and Conroe next week, whereas this article says they're actually shipping the chips (including merom) now. Not much different, but every week counts
Yeah, it's slightly different from other articles which said that Intel was going to ship Merom and Conroe next week, whereas this article says they're actually shipping the chips (including merom) now. Not much different, but every week counts
Comments
Originally posted by melgross
I think pretty much what most others expect. But, I also think it's going to be difficult to figure out whether Apple will continue to use a laptop chip, such as Merom, or go to Conroe.
Conroe puts out less heat than the older G5 that Apple was using, though more than Yonah. The case was redesigned for Yonah, but it could be redone for Conroe, if Apple wants the extra oomph.
Without seeing some real tests on Merom, we won't know what the difference in processing power is between them. Merom will start out at a lower speed, and will continue at a lower speed throughout its lifetime, so Conroe will be speedier just because of that.
But, Apple might consider Merom to be fast enough for the purpose. And less power draw means a smaller power supply ? inside the case, rather than in a brick. That might be more important to them. I know that I would prefer not to have a brick.
As to when. well, Intel is pushing the release of Merom forward, as it has done with everything else, and as it is now doing with Cloverton etc.
Time is likely not an issue therefor.
I didn't think we would see a Merom based machines, laptop, or otherwise, until the forth quarter. But, now I'm not so sure.
It's becoming apparent that whatever chip Apple chooses for the next iMac will tell a lot about where the iMac is heading. If apple chooses Merom then it seems obvious that Apple will continue to use mobile chips with low power consumption and heat release in order to push the envelope on design. If they choose conroe then obviously power wins out. While the difference in performance between conroe and merom may not be too great(we won't know for sure until they are released and tested), how about the future? Conroe will be replaced by a quad core chip. We don't know what will replace Merom but it's quite conceivable that it won't be a quad core chip and a big performance gap between the desktop and mobile chips may develope. For that reason I hope Apple chooses Conroe and keeps a desktop chip in the iMac.
Originally posted by gsxrboy
Maybe this will help with your ruminations ..
From Dailytech...
"Furthermore, Otellini confirmed that quad-core isn't the only processor series moved up. The CEO confirmed Merom has been moved up and is already shipping to revenue, as was reported by HKEPC (English) several days ago."
Dailytech is not the most reliable of publications, as we are familiar with here, though sometimes they come closer than others.
But, I did say thay Merom release has been moved up. It will be released in July, though I doubt very much that it's already shipping in volume, which is what shipping to revenue means.
Originally posted by backtomac
It's becoming apparent that whatever chip Apple chooses for the next iMac will tell a lot about where the iMac is heading. If apple chooses Merom then it seems obvious that Apple will continue to use mobile chips with low power consumption and heat release in order to push the envelope on design. If they choose conroe then obviously power wins out. While the difference in performance between conroe and merom may not be too great(we won't know for sure until they are released and tested), how about the future? Conroe will be replaced by a quad core chip. We don't know what will replace Merom but it's quite conceivable that it won't be a quad core chip and a big performance gap between the desktop and mobile chips may develope. For that reason I hope Apple chooses Conroe and keeps a desktop chip in the iMac.
Yes, right. How will Apple go with this? The iMac is in a funny position in Apple's line. It must be powerful enough to do all of the work that not only those at home expect it to do, iMovie, iDVD, games (don't laugh!), but also must take on the pro work that many pro's do with machines other than the towers, and there are a LOT of them. So, it must be able to handle PS, FCP Studio, Logic Pro, and all of the pro third party software out there.
And if anyone here doubts that pro's use iMacs, well, stop it! They do, and will continue to. Not all pro's can afford a tower, believe it or not. Or, have the space for one.
But, at the same time, Apple markets these machines to a style conscious group, who places them at home, often is a conspicuous place.
As computers become more powerful, the compromises become less dire.
But, this is Apple we are talking about. And Apple has Steve, and who knows what goes on in his mind?
Originally posted by melgross
The case was redesigned for Yonah, but it could be redone for Conroe, if Apple wants the extra oomph.
Actually, the case was redesigned during the third iMac G5 revision, i.e. when they added the iSight. They made it thinner and the internal components less accessible.
So, if they could fit a G5 in that thin case, they'll be able to fit in a Conroe just fine.
Actually, the case was redesigned during the third iMac G5 revision, i.e. when they added the iSight. They made it thinner and the internal components less accessible...So, if they could fit a G5 in that thin case, they'll be able to fit in a Conroe just fine.
Yes, this is important to keep in mind. The ability to handle a G5 at an already slim and attractive form factor, plus cost issues we explored above, point to Conroe.
If they go for Merom in the next update, at that stage, I'd really like to have a reason why.
The iMac is in a funny position in Apple's line...
Nice post melgross. You have hit the nail on the head on the "sweet spot" that the iMac is in. It is amazing that *the* computer that was significant in Apple's turnaround, the candy iMac g3s, continues to be a "flagship" as some have suggested.
[1]It must be powerful enough to do all of the work that... those at home expect it to do, iMovie, iDVD, [Office?]...
No worries right now with Core Duo, Rosetta'd Office. Will be even more teh snappy (tm) with Conroe. 512mb ram is fine, dropping prices may see the next update or the one after that ship with 1GB standard. Don't forget built in iSight.
[2]Games (don't laugh!)
For the first time in, oh, EVER, the iMac can be taken seriously as a gaming machine. The X1600 can handle current Mac games with ease, and Bootcamp WinXP2 allows iMac users for the first time EVER to experience the latest and most exciting PC games and enjoyable medium-to-high level quality and framerates. The X1600 will also age fairly well, after a year and a half the current iMac should handle the latest games at medium-quality gameplay. While I use the term "medium" alot when talking about games and the X1600, the end-user experience is "satisfactory", and again, *unprecedented* in being able to play the latest PC titles.
[3]Take on the pro work that many pro's do with machines other than the towers, and there are a LOT of them. So, it must be able to handle PS, FCP Studio, Logic Pro, and all of the pro third party software out there.
20", Core Duo, 1gb or 2gb, DVD dual layer burning, it's definitely in the mix. Even more so when it goes Conroe.
[4]And if anyone here doubts that pro's use iMacs, well, stop it! They do, and will continue to. Not all pro's can afford a tower, believe it or not. Or, have the space for one.
There are some people in print design that will need 23" or more for layouts, as have been expressed on these boards. But for web design (caveat: here we talk about iMac G5s bought last year) and other pro work, yes, I believe iMacs are used.
The iMac Core Duo is also great for live DJ sets using Ableton, Rewire and Reason, LogicPro perhaps as well... I speak of this not just because of the profile on the infamous Sasha
(http://www.apple.com/pro/profiles/sasha/) but also because when I was making trance music on my PowerMacG5 I could not figure portability and live sets into my ambitions. The iMac Core Duo, portable, and with Conroe, the beefiness of live digital synthesis and remixing for trancemusik production, boy, opens up whole new worlds. Produce at home, pop the iMac into one of those iMac carrier bags, pop it out at the gig, set up MIDI controllers and keyboards, let's just say you can drive your car to the gig rather than taking a truck!! Pardon the hyperbole... but if you look at live acts, they can be everything like a whole stage of gear ala Chemical Brothers but for DJing and boutique dance gigs the iMac would slip in sweetly into the mix. Clubs will have the standard two vinyl turntables and two CD turntables. Throw in a midi keyboard with knobs and stuff (I've worked with M-Audio, excellent stuff, esp. their range now http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=...ardcontrollers), hook up an iMac, we'll have a nice set mixing tunes off Vinyl, off CD, and seamlessly slip in a few self-produced Tracks, even maybe playing some Synths live. Awesome. Maybe one day, when I get back on my feet, I can explore that option more...
[5]But, at the same time, Apple markets these machines to a style conscious group, who places them at home, often is a conspicuous place.
Totally. My cousin and her husband have like a pseudo-Aztec time theme in their lounge and dining area. The iMac G5 (even the squarish one with chin) looks teh sexy.
Believe it or not, a local mobile telco in my city (OMFG this is a city where I have not seen a MacBook on demo YET STILL AT ANY FRACKING APPLE RESELLER IN MY CITY) has placed three iMacs in their flagship customer service outlet for checking online billing and even checking email, I think... The iMac is a dream for interior designers that get the artistic license to incorporate them into a business (employee side or end-user side) setting.
[6]As computers become more powerful, the compromises become less dire.
[7]But, this is Apple we are talking about. And Apple has Steve, and who knows what goes on in his mind?
As long as the iMac continues to improve, gets faster chips, cost of ram and fast hard disks come down, and even if the form factor does not change, and BootCamp is improved, I'm really feelin' it today... It rocks. Yes, who knows what Steve will do, but if he does deem it worthy of his attention he'll push it further forward.
The iMac is just a nice classic piece of the Mac ecosystem - fun and exploration for the home user/ hobbyist, and a tool to learn and master for the creative pros, and overall something that can give personal enjoyment and generate income, in challenging environments.
IDEA: Imagine if the iMac became a sort of "docking station" that gives you all the goodness of what it is now, and you can sort of "pop out" a MacBookPro or some type of portable out of it. "Docking station" would be an extremely crude term for something that could be really elegant and useful. Something that goes in a slightly different direction than the "Desktop Replacement" chunky big ass laptop.
Originally posted by sunilraman
Yes, this is important to keep in mind. The ability to handle a G5 at an already slim and attractive form factor, plus cost issues we explored above, point to Conroe.
Remember that the G5 iMac had a low power G5 at around 45-50 W. Conroe, granted, it has two cores but it runs at 65 W.
If they go for Merom in the next update, at that stage, I'd really like to have a reason why.
Too much hot in the current form factor for not so much gain in performance compared to Merom (remains to be seen though in benchmarks).
Originally posted by Chucker
Actually, the case was redesigned during the third iMac G5 revision, i.e. when they added the iSight. They made it thinner and the internal components less accessible.
So, if they could fit a G5 in that thin case, they'll be able to fit in a Conroe just fine.
Yeah, that's right .I forgot about that. It was the mobo and such that had to be redesigned.
But, that makes it even more likely that they will find it to be suitable for Conroe, if they want to redesign the internals again.
http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/07/20/am...ch_51_percent/
Originally posted by PB
Too much hot in the current form factor for not so much gain in performance compared to Merom (remains to be seen though in benchmarks).
There might not be a big performance gap between Merom and Conroe, although conroe clocks quite a bit higher. What happens a year from now when quad core desktop chips work their way down to mid level machines, ie iMac price level? I've seen no plans for quad core to make it to mobile chips. The technology may not be there for several years.
Originally posted by backtomac
There might not be a big performance gap between Merom and Conroe, although conroe clocks quite a bit higher. What happens a year from now when quad core desktop chips work their way down to mid level machines, ie iMac price level? I've seen no plans for quad core to make it to mobile chips. The technology may not be there for several years.
My take on quad mobile chips are as follows:
65nm squared equals 4225 square nm.
45nm squared equals 2025 square nm.
32nm squared equals 1024 square nm.
Going by that, and the facts of life, which say that power use goes down drastically as area goes down, but that also leakage, and other inefficiencies increase. Plus the also expected improvements in processor design over the fab changeovers.
Therefore, I think it's likely that we won't see a quad 65nm fab mobile chip.
But, we might very well see one at 45nm, if heat and power aren't increased over the higher draw of the 65nm dual core models, which are at about the limit for such devices.
I'm confident that we will see four cores at 32nm, and possibly even six, though I doubt that eight will be available there.
Originally posted by pak150
I just read this article over at macNN that Intel "this week quietly began shipping its next-generation Core 2 Duo chips, The new Merom and Conroe processors for mobile and desktop systems (respectively) are available ahead of schedule." Hopefully Apple's is one of the companies receiving the shipments!
I hope so too. But even more, I hope they go ahead and make their announcement and get these guys into products and the products on the market. I'm ready to purchase here.
Originally posted by pak150
I just read this article over at macNN that Intel "this week quietly began shipping its next-generation Core 2 Duo chips, The new Merom and Conroe processors for mobile and desktop systems (respectively) are available ahead of schedule." Hopefully Apple's is one of the companies receiving the shipments!
You just found that?
Originally posted by melgross
You just found that?
Yeah, it's slightly different from other articles which said that Intel was going to ship Merom and Conroe next week, whereas this article says they're actually shipping the chips (including merom) now. Not much different, but every week counts
Originally posted by pak150
Yeah, it's slightly different from other articles which said that Intel was going to ship Merom and Conroe next week, whereas this article says they're actually shipping the chips (including merom) now. Not much different, but every week counts
That's been around too. But it's doubtful.
Originally posted by melgross
That's been around too. But it's doubtful.
I guess the news is new enough to warrant a posting on Appleinsider
I'm this close to dropping $2k on a new power, er, MacBook Pro. I've been waiting for Merom... so... patiently...
Read my signature