anyone remember seeing PCI or NuBus breakout boxes? Loooooong time ago. Would be nice to have the ability to add a video card to the mini. I like the Accessory Bay idea.
Apple can't keep up with current Macbook demand. There's no way they'll rev it when it's already selling faster than they can make them. There'd be weeks of back-order (which is a lot worse for consumer machines than pro machines, since people buy consumer machines when they need them, as opposed to having a current pro machine laying around).
anyone remember seeing PCI or NuBus breakout boxes? Loooooong time ago. Would be nice to have the ability to add a video card to the mini. I like the Accessory Bay idea.
The thing similar out now is the Quadroplex (note I said similar) and it costs a fortune (partially because of the 2-4 Quadros). Bandwidth is the issue. You'd have to move x8-type bandwidth (like 2 Gbps or so), which is the equal of every other external port on the Mini. You might squeeze along with 1 Gbps (the equal of 4 PCIe lanes). Still - it's a massive bandwidth issue.
Getting inside the mini by itself won't void the warranty. The obvious exception being that if you do break something or something is broken by what you installed, then that damage isn't covered by the warranty. If you are in the US and any service tech gives you any stress about that, go over the Magnuson-Moss warranty act with them.
anyone remember seeing PCI or NuBus breakout boxes? Loooooong time ago. Would be nice to have the ability to add a video card to the mini. I like the Accessory Bay idea.
The connector I mean would have much of that functionality.
Can't this be done with just a firewire connection?
Yes, though that's another cable or two.
I think the best thing that can happen for a media Mac is that it goes to the ~17" wide enclosure so it can be stacked with other A/V equipment. Then that would allow you to have room for a couple pull-out hard drives on the front, and you get plenty of room on the back for tuners. Otherwise, stacking components on a tower isn't going to fit well in many entertainment centers. There's enough goof-ball stuff like game consoles that don't fit very well in an entertainment center, if Apple gets serious about making a media computer, I hope they do this.
This is all my opinion and my suggestion. I really don't think they will do this, I just wish and hope they do.
Seems like there would be less to worry about on that front with the 2.5" drives the Mac Mini uses.
What I mean is that Firewire doesn't take kindly to mixed data/streaming video on the same bus. You would want the data separate from the video stream. So the tuner data should go on a more integrated bus, along with the remote, display, and any other functions. Leave the video/audio stream alone.
I think the best thing that can happen for a media Mac is that it goes to the ~17" wide enclosure so it can be stacked with other A/V equipment. Then that would allow you to have room for a couple pull-out hard drives on the front, and you get plenty of room on the back for tuners. Otherwise, stacking components on a tower isn't going to fit well in many entertainment centers. There's enough goof-ball stuff like game consoles that don't fit very well in an entertainment center, if Apple gets serious about making a media computer, I hope they do this.
This is all my opinion and my suggestion. I really don't think they will do this, I just wish and hope they do.
I've thought about that, but I don't think it would work because of the cost factor. If Apple does it right, it might cost over $1,500. That might be too much for many people to front. A two pronged approch would be more affordable, as the cost could be spread out.
Also, if they would like to remove the computer for some other purpose, or location, the separates idea would make it easier.
What I mean is that Firewire doesn't take kindly to mixed data/streaming video on the same bus. You would want the data separate from the video stream. So the tuner data should go on a more integrated bus, along with the remote, display, and any other functions. Leave the video/audio stream alone.
I thought is possible to assign and guarantee bandwidth for different targets on a Firewire bus, or is this in a special mode that's undesirable to use?
I thought is possible to assign and guarantee bandwidth for different targets on a Firewire bus, or is this in a special mode that's undesirable to use?
There seems to be a problem with Firewire in this respect. I've seen, in my own use, many problems resulting from connecting other devices to a Firewire bus when an HD is connected, and transferring either data or streams. There isn't much that can be done, as it's determined automatically. It doesn't have to be using all of the bandwidth either.
I'm with you on that: Apple should just by El Gato. Now, I know it's too early to be thinking this, but what about Blu-Ray down the road? With the Sony PS3 being $499, if Apple really wanted to get into the living room, maybe they could take advantage of the economies of scale that will quickly come with the PS3's high production of Blu-Ray (perhaps by Spring 07) so that they could include Blu-Ray drives within the current pricing structure (although they would have to give up some margin to penetrae the market effectively).
Why should they buy El Gato?
It would be a nasty thing for Apple to start competing with El Gato. It would only be slightly worse for them to buy them out. The message is then that Apple doesn't like competition and doesn't like developers that do things right.
What Apple needs to do is make Front Row 2.0 open to plug-ins, so that developers can add functionality, allowing it all to be controlled from one place. (Well, they also need a better remote--not a MS monstrosity, but something with a bit more than an "on" button. ) Then, if you want a PVR, boom, you've got it. You want games via FR? Boom, done. (Providing those developers want to support FR, obviously.)
If you like El Gato's stuff, just buy their products. Why does it all have to have an Apple logo on it?
As for the Blu-Ray drive: count on it. (Well, not the discount pricing or reduced margin. This is Apple folks! ) If I could find a bookie to take bets on a MWSF intro of products featuring BR drives, I'd fork over my savings (which, TBH, since I'm a teacher, isn't all that much...). Whether it's just adding them to the line-up as BTO options, or that plus a unique entertainment device/media hub, I'm not so sure. But BR drives will be available in Apple products by early January, no question.
They'll be expensive as hell--I'm guessing a $700-$1000 add-on option--but available, even if only in the Mac Pros. (Remember, for it to be added to a mini or an iMac or laptop, the drive would have to be a SuperDuperDrive(TM) CD-RW/DVD-RW/BR all-in-one reader/burner.)
People should be prepared for a mini-based media hub that reads BR disks to cost in the $1500 neighborhood.
There seems to be a problem with Firewire in this respect. I've seen, in my own use, many problems resulting from connecting other devices to a Firewire bus when an HD is connected, and transferring either data or streams. There isn't much that can be done, as it's determined automatically. It doesn't have to be using all of the bandwidth either.
That's unfortunate. (Wasn't one of the early benefits of FW that it let devices guarantee bandwidth if they needed it, hence the benefits to consumer electronics?)
Back in the winter, I asked Dan Frakes about any problems using multiple FW devices that were attached to the same bus (specifically, daisy-chaining an external FW HDD and a DV camera--sending the video to the HDD on the same bus seemed to me like it might cause some problems). He said he had no experience with it, but hadn't heard of any problems doing that. I'm now contemplating the same general issues, except add the possibility of an external Blu-Ray drive and an external HD-DVD drive as well. (Obviously, in practical usage, I would only ever be using two devices at once: 1) the HDD with 2) the DV camera, or the BR drive, or the HDDVD drive.) Are you saying that it's not a good idea? (Or am I completely misunderstanding you?)
If so, then I hope the new minis get 2 FW ports (on seperate buses).
What Apple needs to do is make Front Row 2.0 open to plug-ins, so that developers can add functionality, allowing it all to be controlled from one place.
This is already possible, Elgato has integrated eyeTV 2.0 into Front Row 1.0.
This is already possible, Elgato has integrated eyeTV 2.0 into Front Row 1.0.
Not that I'm aware of. Are you sure? I hadn't heard of that. And I just looked at EG's site, and saw nothing about it.
It has an access screen/menu that is "Front-Row-like." And its videos can be added to the "Movies" section of FR (because it adds the recordings to the movies folder). But its controls are not accessible from FR (again, as far as I know).
Personally, when I saw El Gato come out with its FR-like screen, it seemed like a plea to Apple to open up FR and make it extensible. ("Hey, Steve! See, it can work like this.") However, it remains closed AFAIK.
BTW, I fully expect it to be opened come January. I don't think Apple is sitting on this.
... Hmmm...I wonder if there's anything interesting in the develop build of Leopard wrt Front Row. I'm hoping FR2 is opened come MWSF, and is available for both Panther and Tiger via iLife 07, and then is shipped with all copies of Leopard, including the Mac Pros. I hope Front Row 2 is not one of the "secret features" of leopard. That would just be lame.
That's unfortunate. (Wasn't one of the early benefits of FW that it let devices guarantee bandwidth if they needed it, hence the benefits to consumer electronics?)
Back in the winter, I asked Dan Frakes about any problems using multiple FW devices that were attached to the same bus (specifically, daisy-chaining an external FW HDD and a DV camera--sending the video to the HDD on the same bus seemed to me like it might cause some problems). He said he had no experience with it, but hadn't heard of any problems doing that. I'm now contemplating the same general issues, except add the possibility of an external Blu-Ray drive and an external HD-DVD drive as well. (Obviously, in practical usage, I would only ever be using two devices at once: 1) the HDD with 2) the DV camera, or the BR drive, or the HDDVD drive.) Are you saying that it's not a good idea? (Or am I completely misunderstanding you?)
If so, then I hope the new minis get 2 FW ports (on seperate buses).
Also, would/does FW800 fix the problem?
Dan is a nice guy, but he doesn't use any of this in a professional way. In his career, he plays with equipment, as do most others in his position. I can tell you that I've done most of this, and there are problems. A Camcorder on a firewire bus with a HD is a well known problem. So is capturing with a tethered digital cam.
Firewire is like USB, much has been promised, and little has been delivered.
Comments
anyone remember seeing PCI or NuBus breakout boxes? Loooooong time ago. Would be nice to have the ability to add a video card to the mini. I like the Accessory Bay idea.
I think someone else was running the company...
anyone remember seeing PCI or NuBus breakout boxes? Loooooong time ago. Would be nice to have the ability to add a video card to the mini. I like the Accessory Bay idea.
The thing similar out now is the Quadroplex (note I said similar) and it costs a fortune (partially because of the 2-4 Quadros). Bandwidth is the issue. You'd have to move x8-type bandwidth (like 2 Gbps or so), which is the equal of every other external port on the Mini. You might squeeze along with 1 Gbps (the equal of 4 PCIe lanes). Still - it's a massive bandwidth issue.
I think someone else was running the company...
Getting inside the mini by itself won't void the warranty. The obvious exception being that if you do break something or something is broken by what you installed, then that damage isn't covered by the warranty. If you are in the US and any service tech gives you any stress about that, go over the Magnuson-Moss warranty act with them.
Definitely will have to look into this.
Thanks!
Can't this be done with just a firewire connection?
For full integration, it would need more than that. you also don't want to run more than one HD off a firewire bus.
anyone remember seeing PCI or NuBus breakout boxes? Loooooong time ago. Would be nice to have the ability to add a video card to the mini. I like the Accessory Bay idea.
The connector I mean would have much of that functionality.
For full integration, it would need more than that. you also don't want to run more than one HD off a firewire bus.
Seems like there would be less to worry about on that front with the 2.5" drives the Mac Mini uses.
Can't this be done with just a firewire connection?
Yes, though that's another cable or two.
I think the best thing that can happen for a media Mac is that it goes to the ~17" wide enclosure so it can be stacked with other A/V equipment. Then that would allow you to have room for a couple pull-out hard drives on the front, and you get plenty of room on the back for tuners. Otherwise, stacking components on a tower isn't going to fit well in many entertainment centers. There's enough goof-ball stuff like game consoles that don't fit very well in an entertainment center, if Apple gets serious about making a media computer, I hope they do this.
This is all my opinion and my suggestion. I really don't think they will do this, I just wish and hope they do.
Seems like there would be less to worry about on that front with the 2.5" drives the Mac Mini uses.
What I mean is that Firewire doesn't take kindly to mixed data/streaming video on the same bus. You would want the data separate from the video stream. So the tuner data should go on a more integrated bus, along with the remote, display, and any other functions. Leave the video/audio stream alone.
Yes, though that's another cable or two.
I think the best thing that can happen for a media Mac is that it goes to the ~17" wide enclosure so it can be stacked with other A/V equipment. Then that would allow you to have room for a couple pull-out hard drives on the front, and you get plenty of room on the back for tuners. Otherwise, stacking components on a tower isn't going to fit well in many entertainment centers. There's enough goof-ball stuff like game consoles that don't fit very well in an entertainment center, if Apple gets serious about making a media computer, I hope they do this.
This is all my opinion and my suggestion. I really don't think they will do this, I just wish and hope they do.
I've thought about that, but I don't think it would work because of the cost factor. If Apple does it right, it might cost over $1,500. That might be too much for many people to front. A two pronged approch would be more affordable, as the cost could be spread out.
Also, if they would like to remove the computer for some other purpose, or location, the separates idea would make it easier.
What I mean is that Firewire doesn't take kindly to mixed data/streaming video on the same bus. You would want the data separate from the video stream. So the tuner data should go on a more integrated bus, along with the remote, display, and any other functions. Leave the video/audio stream alone.
I thought is possible to assign and guarantee bandwidth for different targets on a Firewire bus, or is this in a special mode that's undesirable to use?
I thought is possible to assign and guarantee bandwidth for different targets on a Firewire bus, or is this in a special mode that's undesirable to use?
There seems to be a problem with Firewire in this respect. I've seen, in my own use, many problems resulting from connecting other devices to a Firewire bus when an HD is connected, and transferring either data or streams. There isn't much that can be done, as it's determined automatically. It doesn't have to be using all of the bandwidth either.
I'm with you on that: Apple should just by El Gato. Now, I know it's too early to be thinking this, but what about Blu-Ray down the road? With the Sony PS3 being $499, if Apple really wanted to get into the living room, maybe they could take advantage of the economies of scale that will quickly come with the PS3's high production of Blu-Ray (perhaps by Spring 07) so that they could include Blu-Ray drives within the current pricing structure (although they would have to give up some margin to penetrae the market effectively).
Why should they buy El Gato?
It would be a nasty thing for Apple to start competing with El Gato. It would only be slightly worse for them to buy them out. The message is then that Apple doesn't like competition and doesn't like developers that do things right.
What Apple needs to do is make Front Row 2.0 open to plug-ins, so that developers can add functionality, allowing it all to be controlled from one place. (Well, they also need a better remote--not a MS monstrosity, but something with a bit more than an "on" button.
If you like El Gato's stuff, just buy their products. Why does it all have to have an Apple logo on it?
As for the Blu-Ray drive: count on it. (Well, not the discount pricing or reduced margin. This is Apple folks!
They'll be expensive as hell--I'm guessing a $700-$1000 add-on option--but available, even if only in the Mac Pros. (Remember, for it to be added to a mini or an iMac or laptop, the drive would have to be a SuperDuperDrive(TM) CD-RW/DVD-RW/BR all-in-one reader/burner.)
People should be prepared for a mini-based media hub that reads BR disks to cost in the $1500 neighborhood.
There seems to be a problem with Firewire in this respect. I've seen, in my own use, many problems resulting from connecting other devices to a Firewire bus when an HD is connected, and transferring either data or streams. There isn't much that can be done, as it's determined automatically. It doesn't have to be using all of the bandwidth either.
That's unfortunate. (Wasn't one of the early benefits of FW that it let devices guarantee bandwidth if they needed it, hence the benefits to consumer electronics?)
Back in the winter, I asked Dan Frakes about any problems using multiple FW devices that were attached to the same bus (specifically, daisy-chaining an external FW HDD and a DV camera--sending the video to the HDD on the same bus seemed to me like it might cause some problems). He said he had no experience with it, but hadn't heard of any problems doing that. I'm now contemplating the same general issues, except add the possibility of an external Blu-Ray drive and an external HD-DVD drive as well. (Obviously, in practical usage, I would only ever be using two devices at once: 1) the HDD with 2) the DV camera, or the BR drive, or the HDDVD drive.) Are you saying that it's not a good idea? (Or am I completely misunderstanding you?)
If so, then I hope the new minis get 2 FW ports (on seperate buses).
Also, would/does FW800 fix the problem?
me thinks it'll still have integrated video card given it's position on the product line totum pole.
And this only issue is what's holding me back from buying one (as well as the macbook).
- Mark
What Apple needs to do is make Front Row 2.0 open to plug-ins, so that developers can add functionality, allowing it all to be controlled from one place.
This is already possible, Elgato has integrated eyeTV 2.0 into Front Row 1.0.
This is already possible, Elgato has integrated eyeTV 2.0 into Front Row 1.0.
Not that I'm aware of. Are you sure? I hadn't heard of that. And I just looked at EG's site, and saw nothing about it.
It has an access screen/menu that is "Front-Row-like." And its videos can be added to the "Movies" section of FR (because it adds the recordings to the movies folder). But its controls are not accessible from FR (again, as far as I know).
Personally, when I saw El Gato come out with its FR-like screen, it seemed like a plea to Apple to open up FR and make it extensible. ("Hey, Steve! See, it can work like this.") However, it remains closed AFAIK.
BTW, I fully expect it to be opened come January. I don't think Apple is sitting on this.
... Hmmm...I wonder if there's anything interesting in the develop build of Leopard wrt Front Row. I'm hoping FR2 is opened come MWSF, and is available for both Panther and Tiger via iLife 07, and then is shipped with all copies of Leopard, including the Mac Pros. I hope Front Row 2 is not one of the "secret features" of leopard. That would just be lame.
That's unfortunate. (Wasn't one of the early benefits of FW that it let devices guarantee bandwidth if they needed it, hence the benefits to consumer electronics?)
Back in the winter, I asked Dan Frakes about any problems using multiple FW devices that were attached to the same bus (specifically, daisy-chaining an external FW HDD and a DV camera--sending the video to the HDD on the same bus seemed to me like it might cause some problems). He said he had no experience with it, but hadn't heard of any problems doing that. I'm now contemplating the same general issues, except add the possibility of an external Blu-Ray drive and an external HD-DVD drive as well. (Obviously, in practical usage, I would only ever be using two devices at once: 1) the HDD with 2) the DV camera, or the BR drive, or the HDDVD drive.) Are you saying that it's not a good idea? (Or am I completely misunderstanding you?)
If so, then I hope the new minis get 2 FW ports (on seperate buses).
Also, would/does FW800 fix the problem?
Dan is a nice guy, but he doesn't use any of this in a professional way. In his career, he plays with equipment, as do most others in his position. I can tell you that I've done most of this, and there are problems. A Camcorder on a firewire bus with a HD is a well known problem. So is capturing with a tethered digital cam.
Firewire is like USB, much has been promised, and little has been delivered.
This is already possible, Elgato has integrated eyeTV 2.0 into Front Row 1.0.
Not correct. They emulate Front Row's UI and let you switch between Front Row and EyeTV. They do not extend Front Row itself.