Good points and this is the last I'll say on it. Dear Moderator ... this really is the last for me ... and I don't mean to just be trying to get in the last word ... really ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
Here's the problem: you can't agree on context when you're playing the "I don't have to explain myself, I just find it offensive, period, so shut up" game (I'm not saying you are doing this yourself, but you seem to be advocating the idea that groups should have carte blanche to do so).
I didn't see anyone doing that carte blanche, I think I heard people say that they had good reason to advocate for a different use of the term "oriental" vs. "asian." It was/is in my experience, not arbitrary, but has been described by many people over the last several years in the popular press. I understand some people don't realize that and that is fine. No one is up in arms about it. We are saying that it is becoming increasingly customery use "oriental" to describe things, people - not so much. It is up to each of us, now that we all have heard this, to decide whether to accept it or not. If you don't think you have heard enough reason, that is your choice, no one will berate you mercilessly about it - however if someone does object to it, you (not you personally) hopefully will at least not think that it is merely a pc conspiracy hatched in Berkeley to make white people feel bad, but rather a legitimate opinion. To become upset about that opinion is just an emotional reaction to a perception of reverse-descrimination, in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
The comparison between ethnic descriptors isn't "the superficial part of the discussion"; it's the point. It isn't acceptable to put the N-word or "colored" off-limits just because somebody says so. It's because those words are very specifically associated with racism and segregation: one would have to be almost unfathomably culturally and historically illiterate not to know that. However, "black" has not been successfully supplanted by "African-American" (they seem to coexist, somehow) because noone has been able to show that "black" is somehow derogatory, regardless of the undeniable context of historical discrimination against black people.
I think the group who is the object of description DOES get to have some say in how they would like to be referred. No ethnic or other group is monolithic in their opinions, but it should not be thought a sign of weakness or bleeding heart liberalism to try and be respectful. "Black" seems to be quite common and accepted in many circles, but if an African-American asked me not to use it in his situation, I would be fine not using it and I wouldn't be upset that she/he was being arbitrary or unreasonable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
By the same token, though we've gotten plenty of history lessons about discrimination against East Asians, noone has yet succeeded in linking the term "oriental" to that discrimination.
How do you know that? Has anyone done a study on this? I'm sure "oriental" isn't particularly offensive to most people, but "colored" probably took a few decades to filter down to everyone that it was offensive and we might be in the early stages of this for "oriental." My point is to just be aware and respectful that it MIGHT be offensive to SOME people for reasons that you and I may not be aware of. Again merely attempting to being respectful is not being overly sensitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
It's off-limits for no apparent reason...
First I don't recall anyone saying it was "off-limits" only that it has become an anachronistic word for people, but not for objects. Second, several people have tried to give fairly apparent reasons, though it was obviously from their own particular points of view.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
...it's like saying "the Irish were discriminated against so we can't call them Irish anymore" -- huh?
I'm Irish and you can call me that, because the Irish call themselves that. Do Orientals call themselves oriental? Actually in the vast rangelands of the West, calling someone Irish is often a term of fun/jest that does have historic significance. Joking about it seems to offend no one so no one makes a big deal about it. Also the Irish have become a part of the power structure and therefore they have little reason to think they are being descriminated ... at least in the US. Maybe when we have a Chinese-American president, "Chinaman" will be the same ... but I doubt it. "Oriental" to some people has a similar historical connotation to "Chinaman."
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
A lot of people have a problem with that kind of arbitrary thought-policing ...
My point is that it isn't arbitrary and it is hardly "thought policing" - it is merely mentioning an opinion. You can think whatever you want. I suppose there are some instances of thought-policing going on, but usually that is called marketing and is used by corporations and political action committees, mostly. I would respectfully say that "a lot of people" are being as overly sensitive to the idea of "thought-policing" as you feel some of us are about the word "oriental." Again I'd say the main reason for that is the anger or fear of reverse descirmination. I'm sure it happens but in my experience there are far more problems with descrimination still than with reverse descrimination. I think minorities have more hurdles to overcome than the white majority, even with the few, but headline-making examples of true reverse descrimination.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
... and in your "globalized world", our peculiarly American obsession with it is going to increasingly bump up against the bemused indifference of foreigners who don't share our cultural baggage.
Perhaps, but that is probably not a big problem. Bemused indifference is hardly a reason to ignore possible problems in our own culture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianus
And if ever there were a lesson we desperately need to learn, it's this: we Americans should be trying to adapt to them, rather than expecting the reverse.
I don't see it as a desperate lesson to learn, but I agree that we should be willing to look at each individual and group at face value and be open to their own perceptions ... as they should to us.
Thanks for the discussion ...
BTW, I still can't believe that EVERY commercial or journalist report on the Zune, always uses the brown version!?!? If it were a nice leather or rich auburn or something, maybe, but MS seems to be sending everyone the plastic fudgecycle as the sample for all to see and it cracks me up. You'd think they would send a white one to the TV studios. Maybe they know anyone who doesn't own an iPod by now would think it was an iPod, so the brown is the only external differentiator.
It runs fine on Vista RC1 and it looks the same whether you are on OS X, XP, or Vista. As a matter of fact, neither iTunes nor QuickTime will cause the Vista's color scheme to revert to Vista Basic, although QuickTime preferences does. I do not know if I get the full Aero Glass or not but I do have and can set the transparency level.
Eventually, Apple will release a version of iTunes for Vista and I am curious if they will allow the border to become transparent.
just an update, this comes from ZuneInsider.com (it's a blog from a Microsoft MKT guy)
On Vista support: When Windows Vista (consumer edition) is publicly available this January, it will work with Zune. This will include Vista 64bit support. I'm not sure if Zune software will run on a Mac running Windows.
Someone said it was a military phrase....meaning what, I cannot imagine.
Submarines would collect messages for transmission into a bundle and then send them all at once. This would minimize exposure to location by their radio emissions. The messages were sent rapidly and for a very short period of time. The suitable and convenient term "squirt" was adopted informally. This much I know; what follows is conjecture.
The Zune probably sends short bursts of data to be shared with some other Zune. My guess is that someone involved in its design was familiar with the military usage and adopted it. It likely spread among members of that department (where it should have remained), and soon leaked out(pun intended) within earshot of the suits, who thought it was a cool "techie" term.
Submarines would collect messages for transmission into a bundle and then send them all at once. This would minimize exposure to location by their radio emissions. The messages were sent rapidly and for a very short period of time. The suitable and convenient term "squirt" was adopted informally. This much I know; what follows is conjecture.
The Zune probably sends short bursts of data to be shared with some other Zune. My guess is that someone involved in its design was familiar with the military usage and adopted it. It likely spread among members of that department (where it should have remained), and soon leaked out(pun intended) within earshot of the suits, who thought it was a cool "techie" term.
Squirt sounds lame. Makes somewhat sense for the military because a) they aren't trying to market a product, they are just trying to stay alive, and b) it was a submarine, hence the water >> squirt reference.
There is a great deal of confusion in these comments. I don't know what to think anymore. I don't think the bottle thing it's a healthy idea but then again i have been wrong before.
Comments
really, in c/windows/system32, look for the file with the bluetooth icon. It should be called fsquirt
No way!! Haha, roflmao
Clearly, microsoft liked to squirt things long before zune
Who knows how long Ballmer has been squirting others
Here's the problem: you can't agree on context when you're playing the "I don't have to explain myself, I just find it offensive, period, so shut up" game (I'm not saying you are doing this yourself, but you seem to be advocating the idea that groups should have carte blanche to do so).
I didn't see anyone doing that carte blanche, I think I heard people say that they had good reason to advocate for a different use of the term "oriental" vs. "asian." It was/is in my experience, not arbitrary, but has been described by many people over the last several years in the popular press. I understand some people don't realize that and that is fine. No one is up in arms about it. We are saying that it is becoming increasingly customery use "oriental" to describe things, people - not so much. It is up to each of us, now that we all have heard this, to decide whether to accept it or not. If you don't think you have heard enough reason, that is your choice, no one will berate you mercilessly about it - however if someone does object to it, you (not you personally) hopefully will at least not think that it is merely a pc conspiracy hatched in Berkeley to make white people feel bad, but rather a legitimate opinion. To become upset about that opinion is just an emotional reaction to a perception of reverse-descrimination, in my opinion.
The comparison between ethnic descriptors isn't "the superficial part of the discussion"; it's the point. It isn't acceptable to put the N-word or "colored" off-limits just because somebody says so. It's because those words are very specifically associated with racism and segregation: one would have to be almost unfathomably culturally and historically illiterate not to know that. However, "black" has not been successfully supplanted by "African-American" (they seem to coexist, somehow) because noone has been able to show that "black" is somehow derogatory, regardless of the undeniable context of historical discrimination against black people.
I think the group who is the object of description DOES get to have some say in how they would like to be referred. No ethnic or other group is monolithic in their opinions, but it should not be thought a sign of weakness or bleeding heart liberalism to try and be respectful. "Black" seems to be quite common and accepted in many circles, but if an African-American asked me not to use it in his situation, I would be fine not using it and I wouldn't be upset that she/he was being arbitrary or unreasonable.
By the same token, though we've gotten plenty of history lessons about discrimination against East Asians, noone has yet succeeded in linking the term "oriental" to that discrimination.
How do you know that? Has anyone done a study on this? I'm sure "oriental" isn't particularly offensive to most people, but "colored" probably took a few decades to filter down to everyone that it was offensive and we might be in the early stages of this for "oriental." My point is to just be aware and respectful that it MIGHT be offensive to SOME people for reasons that you and I may not be aware of. Again merely attempting to being respectful is not being overly sensitive.
It's off-limits for no apparent reason...
First I don't recall anyone saying it was "off-limits" only that it has become an anachronistic word for people, but not for objects. Second, several people have tried to give fairly apparent reasons, though it was obviously from their own particular points of view.
...it's like saying "the Irish were discriminated against so we can't call them Irish anymore" -- huh?
I'm Irish and you can call me that, because the Irish call themselves that. Do Orientals call themselves oriental? Actually in the vast rangelands of the West, calling someone Irish is often a term of fun/jest that does have historic significance. Joking about it seems to offend no one so no one makes a big deal about it. Also the Irish have become a part of the power structure and therefore they have little reason to think they are being descriminated ... at least in the US. Maybe when we have a Chinese-American president, "Chinaman" will be the same ... but I doubt it. "Oriental" to some people has a similar historical connotation to "Chinaman."
A lot of people have a problem with that kind of arbitrary thought-policing ...
My point is that it isn't arbitrary and it is hardly "thought policing" - it is merely mentioning an opinion. You can think whatever you want. I suppose there are some instances of thought-policing going on, but usually that is called marketing and is used by corporations and political action committees, mostly. I would respectfully say that "a lot of people" are being as overly sensitive to the idea of "thought-policing" as you feel some of us are about the word "oriental." Again I'd say the main reason for that is the anger or fear of reverse descirmination. I'm sure it happens but in my experience there are far more problems with descrimination still than with reverse descrimination. I think minorities have more hurdles to overcome than the white majority, even with the few, but headline-making examples of true reverse descrimination.
... and in your "globalized world", our peculiarly American obsession with it is going to increasingly bump up against the bemused indifference of foreigners who don't share our cultural baggage.
Perhaps, but that is probably not a big problem. Bemused indifference is hardly a reason to ignore possible problems in our own culture.
And if ever there were a lesson we desperately need to learn, it's this: we Americans should be trying to adapt to them, rather than expecting the reverse.
I don't see it as a desperate lesson to learn, but I agree that we should be willing to look at each individual and group at face value and be open to their own perceptions ... as they should to us.
Thanks for the discussion ...
BTW, I still can't believe that EVERY commercial or journalist report on the Zune, always uses the brown version!?!? If it were a nice leather or rich auburn or something, maybe, but MS seems to be sending everyone the plastic fudgecycle as the sample for all to see and it cracks me up. You'd think they would send a white one to the TV studios. Maybe they know anyone who doesn't own an iPod by now would think it was an iPod, so the brown is the only external differentiator.
really, in c/windows/system32, look for the file with the bluetooth icon. It should be called fsquirt
Frack Me. I am so ashamed
Does iTunes run on Vista?
It runs fine on Vista RC1 and it looks the same whether you are on OS X, XP, or Vista. As a matter of fact, neither iTunes nor QuickTime will cause the Vista's color scheme to revert to Vista Basic, although QuickTime preferences does. I do not know if I get the full Aero Glass or not but I do have and can set the transparency level.
Eventually, Apple will release a version of iTunes for Vista and I am curious if they will allow the border to become transparent.
On Vista support: When Windows Vista (consumer edition) is publicly available this January, it will work with Zune. This will include Vista 64bit support. I'm not sure if Zune software will run on a Mac running Windows.
here, i took a screenshot off the website:
They shipped the Zune without it being Vista compatible? WTF??? Could that company get any dumber?
But then, weirdly, the top of the Google page also asks "Did you mean: zone?"
WTF??? Could that company get any dumber?
Your answer: (to repeat a previous post)
http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/zune.jpg
Someone said it was a military phrase....meaning what, I cannot imagine.
Submarines would collect messages for transmission into a bundle and then send them all at once. This would minimize exposure to location by their radio emissions. The messages were sent rapidly and for a very short period of time. The suitable and convenient term "squirt" was adopted informally. This much I know; what follows is conjecture.
The Zune probably sends short bursts of data to be shared with some other Zune. My guess is that someone involved in its design was familiar with the military usage and adopted it. It likely spread among members of that department (where it should have remained), and soon leaked out(pun intended) within earshot of the suits, who thought it was a cool "techie" term.
Submarines would collect messages for transmission into a bundle and then send them all at once. This would minimize exposure to location by their radio emissions. The messages were sent rapidly and for a very short period of time. The suitable and convenient term "squirt" was adopted informally. This much I know; what follows is conjecture.
The Zune probably sends short bursts of data to be shared with some other Zune. My guess is that someone involved in its design was familiar with the military usage and adopted it. It likely spread among members of that department (where it should have remained), and soon leaked out(pun intended) within earshot of the suits, who thought it was a cool "techie" term.
Squirt sounds lame. Makes somewhat sense for the military because a) they aren't trying to market a product, they are just trying to stay alive, and b) it was a submarine, hence the water >> squirt reference.
Microsoft's adoption of that word was stupid.
narcanon