murch, I'm not sure your player price argument is valid. It would be if we're talking about a consumer product but we're dealing with a technology that hasn't even reached the mass to be considered a niche one yet. Consumers have always shown a strong resistance to buying into a technology where there are competing formats. To further compound the problem is the feeling among consumers that SD-DVD is "good-enough". So a lower price might appeal to a very limited number of early adopters or people wishing to go format neutral (or format war prolongers, take your pick), it would mean zip to the average consumer.
And even the "HD DVD is cheaper" argument is specious. It's the same thing people have always said about the Mac costing more than PCs. Yes, the initial outlay for hardware may be more, but the TCO will be higher for HD DVD in the long run, since Universal insists on releasing all newer titles as combo discs. All those $4-5 DVD layers that HD DVD buyers don't have the option to refuse add up over time.
Getting cheaper is within the control of Blu-ray makers. Getting more content is not within the control of HD-DVD makers. If that's the way the battle is forming HD-DVD is hosed (whining to the EU isn't likely to bear fruit) as BD controls its own destiny and HD-DVD does not.
Vinea
I agree. It's a far more natural progression for Blu-ray to reduce the price than HD DVD suddenly appeal to Disney/Fox etc as these studios are so antagonistic toward HD DVD. Which is one of the reasons why the EC is investigating IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73
murch, I'm not sure your player price argument is valid. It would be if we're talking about a consumer product but we're dealing with a technology that hasn't even reached the mass to be considered a niche one yet. Consumers have always shown a strong resistance to buying into a technology where there are competing formats. To further compound the problem is the feeling among consumers that SD-DVD is "good-enough". So a lower price might appeal to a very limited number of early adopters or people wishing to go format neutral (or format war prolongers, take your pick), it would mean zip to the average consumer.
These formats could very well be a niche. I must admit that I'm pretty surprised about how upscaling adds a bit of polish to DVDs that are well mastered. Both formats will have to break out a bit more than HD quality if they wish to sell movies that are much more expensive than DVD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolchak
And even the "HD DVD is cheaper" argument is specious. It's the same thing people have always said about the Mac costing more than PCs. Yes, the initial outlay for hardware may be more, but the TCO will be higher for HD DVD in the long run, since Universal insists on releasing all newer titles as combo discs. All those $4-5 DVD layers that HD DVD buyers don't have the option to refuse add up over time.
True but many Fox and Lionsgate movies are $27 even without the extra combo functionality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duddits
At the least, Blu-ray doesn't loose.
Whether that means HD DVD coexists with Blu-ray or is slaughtered off by it completely is still up in the air.
Yes ...the only people that hate the idea of peaceful co-existence are studios who'd have to deliver content to both formats.
Yes ...the only people that hate the idea of peaceful co-existence are studios who'd have to deliver content to both formats.
Producers: twice as many types of items to produce, distinct production lines, additional cost.
Distributors and retailers: twice as many items to track, more retail shelf space consumed, so a smaller selection of titles can be sold, additional cost.
Consumers: these formats are identical in capability, so why is my player incompatible with my cousin's discs and vice versa? Why doesn't the game console I want play my movie discs? Why do I pay more and get a smaller selection of titles at the store?
I don't know how the licensing is set up, ie. if only one format is left standing, is it possible that format gets jacked up in price or not. But one format vs. two equal formats hardly seems like cut and dried for the consumer.
Dude...your attacking phantom arguments here. I clearly said "save for the PS3". I'm scracthing here wondering how you got me ignoring the PS3 right now. ... Pay attention.
I'm really feeling like you devasted my argument and humbled me here. Shall I aquiesce an genuflect in honor of your greatness?
Ahh! My bad, and I admit it, just not paying attention was I, doh! apologies on that one.
You can genuflect if you want to, or we could both genuflect together in a glorified and gracious genuflection dance?
mm.. underwater synchronised genuflection routines in the next Olympics? might be cool huh?
I agree. It's a far more natural progression for Blu-ray to reduce the price than HD DVD suddenly appeal to Disney/Fox etc as these studios are so antagonistic toward HD DVD. Which is one of the reasons why the EC is investigating IMO.
HD DVD...no region coding.
Blu-Ray...region coding.
HD DVD...AACS (partially broken now)
Blu-Ray...AACS, ROM Mark and BD+
An objective measure as to why some studios that have always been more protective of thier movies would prefer one over the other despite cost. Fox stated that the additional protection was why it favored Blu-Ray.
""We made no secret when we approached both formats that we'd make a decision primarily on content protection," said Andrew Setos, president of engineering for the Fox Entertainment Group, in an interview.
"Our announcement last Friday that we would be in fact publishing on Blu-Ray disc best was a result of content protection, and no other issues," Setos added, including the potential cost of replicating the discs."
"I know many people of the industry try to cover up this breach, by saying I have only poked a tiny hole in AACS, but it is more serious than that. Only the future will tell.
The AACS security layer is almost the same for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray, so they are both busted for good.
The only extra security layer is for the Blu-ray format, and it's called BD+. BD+ is not there yet, and I don't know when it will be. May be my "exploits" will speed up the adoption of BD+, we will see..."
The studios have never hidden that DRM was a significant consideration and HD-DVD's whining to the EU has zero merit when they ignored the desires of the primary content providers.
Disney and Fox's distrust of just AACS has been validated. Multi-layered defense, even if not quite there yet, is a better concept than a single layer. Like safes, DRM isn't meant to be total protection...just enough to make widespread copying annoying. That's likely a lost cause but certainly something the studios can rightly claim is a major differentiating factor between the two formats that they have publically stated in the past.
Quote:
Yes ...the only people that hate the idea of peaceful co-existence are studios who'd have to deliver content to both formats.
And CE makers and consumers. That's just about...everyone.
There are many rumors going around on the BD+ as whether it requires additional hardware spec Some claims that BD+ should already be part of the mandated spec from the 1st generation BD player Hardware, but there are some claiming it does not. Just like the BD profile 1.1/2.0 fiasco still not being compliant even when the issue had been brought up since the beginning.
On the upside.... What should we expect from E3 next week?...
Few rumors about possible price drops on all gaming hardwares including....
PS3 $599 to $499
Xbox360 Elite $499 to $449
360 HD-DVD add one $199 to $99 (drive only) and $149 (remote + movie)
How would these price drops play in the HD movie adoption? I would think $99 HD-DVD drive would sell like a hot cake for Xbox360 fans and HTPC enthusiasts.
PS3 is officially $499 for the 60gb version. That includes 5 free Blu-ray movies, as well.
And the remote is being included for free now at Amazon. The PS3 now has the top spot in Amazon's video game section and is outselling even the Wii.
Meanwhile, in other news, 300 on Blu-ray has been beating its HD DVD counterpart for days now. And that's not taking into account that even when an HD DVD disc outranks the same film on Blu-ray on Amazon, it still comes out with lower overall sales figures in the market (see Planet Earth). What was that Murch said? "I guarantee you that 300 will sell more HD DVD copies." So, Murch, was that a money back guarantee? Care to make any other predictions about how HD DVD is going to destroy Blu-ray?
I honestly don't see how Apple can't choose Blu-ray as the exclusive next generation optical drive in the eventual Mac Pro update. I'm sure Apple can see that the writing is on the wall and there's no point in supporting another format that's losing on all fronts. Especially since they already believe enough in Blu-ray to be on its board of directors, not just as a supporting member.
And the remote is being included for free now at Amazon. The PS3 now has the top spot in Amazon's video game section and is outselling even the Wii.
Meanwhile, in other news, 300 on Blu-ray has been beating its HD DVD counterpart for days now. And that's not taking into account that even when an HD DVD disc outranks the same film on Blu-ray on Amazon, it still comes out with lower overall sales figures in the market (see Planet Earth). What was that Murch said? "I guarantee you that 300 will sell more HD DVD copies." So, Murch, was that a money back guarantee? Care to make any other predictions about how HD DVD is going to destroy Blu-ray?
I honestly don't see how Apple can't choose Blu-ray as the exclusive next generation optical drive in the eventual Mac Pro update. I'm sure Apple can see that the writing is on the wall and there's no point in supporting another format that's losing on all fronts. Especially since they already believe enough in Blu-ray to be on its board of directors, not just as a supporting member.
I agree. I think Apple's primary focus currently is the iPhone, but I think all they're waiting for is the ability to insert a Blu-ray drive into their offerings that won't necessarily spike the cost of their machines. I think all indicators are pointing to standard Blu-ray drives in Apple's Pro offerings come MacWorld 08.
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment has announced that they will bring the Jack Nicholson classic 'A Few Good Men' to Blu-ray on September 18th. Featuring one of the most quoted movie lines ever, this title has proven a huge seller on DVD, and will surely be a favorite on Blu-ray. Video will be presented in 1080p and accompanied by a PCM soundtrack.
Tom Cruise, Jack Nicholson and Demi Moore star in Rob Reiner's unanimously acclaimed drama about the dangerous difference between following orders and following one's conscience. Cruise stars as a brash Navy lawyer who's teamed with a gung-ho litigator (Moore) in a politically explosive murder case. Charged with defending two Marines accused of killing a fellow soldier, they are confronted with complex issues of loyalty and honor, including its most sacred code and its most formidable warrior (Nicholson). Superbly directed with a trio of powerhouse performances and an outstanding supporting cast including Kevin Pollak, Kiefer Sutherland and Kevin Bacon.
I love this movie! Sony best being giving it some high bitrate, AVC encoding, BD50 love come September!
I agree. I think Apple's primary focus currently is the iPhone, but I think all they're waiting for is the ability to insert a Blu-ray drive into their offerings that won't necessarily spike the cost of their machines. I think all indicators are pointing to standard Blu-ray drives in Apple's Pro offerings come MacWorld 08.
Well, then again, it's not like they have any other options. Toshiba still doesn't have an HD DVD burner available for sale, despite several announcements about how it was imminent over the past twelve months. Blu-ray burners are available from several manufacturers.
Well, then again, it's not like they have any other options. Toshiba still doesn't have an HD DVD burner available for sale, despite several announcements about how it was imminent over the past twelve months. Blu-ray burners are available from several manufacturers.
This is one area I have to give credit to Blu-Ray. I was updating my Nero 7 and it now allows Blu-Ray authoring onto BD-RW and regular DVD's. Not that I can do this now because the ridiculous pricing of Blur-Ray burner/drive, but it's still good option to have for the future once the price drops. The update also inlcludes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playback feature via "showtime" software for free. I'm sure the HD-DVD authoring will be added soon, once the HD-DVD burners are released.
This is for those Star Trek fans. Paramount announced to release Star Trek on HD-DVD. No news on Blu-Ray version as of date.
This is one area I have to give credit to Blu-Ray. I was updating my Nero 7 and it now allows Blu-Ray authoring onto BD-RW and regular DVD's. Not that I can do this now because the ridiculous pricing of Blur-Ray burner/drive, but it's still good option to have for the future once the price drops. The update also inlcludes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playback feature via "showtime" software for free. I'm sure the HD-DVD authoring will be added soon, once the HD-DVD burners are released.
You and I must have been doing the same thing last night...I also updated my Nero 7 and noticed the same thing--Nero having Blu-ray authoring updates.
Comments
Whether that means HD DVD coexists with Blu-ray or is slaughtered off by it completely is still up in the air.
Getting cheaper is within the control of Blu-ray makers. Getting more content is not within the control of HD-DVD makers. If that's the way the battle is forming HD-DVD is hosed (whining to the EU isn't likely to bear fruit) as BD controls its own destiny and HD-DVD does not.
Vinea
I agree. It's a far more natural progression for Blu-ray to reduce the price than HD DVD suddenly appeal to Disney/Fox etc as these studios are so antagonistic toward HD DVD. Which is one of the reasons why the EC is investigating IMO.
murch, I'm not sure your player price argument is valid. It would be if we're talking about a consumer product but we're dealing with a technology that hasn't even reached the mass to be considered a niche one yet. Consumers have always shown a strong resistance to buying into a technology where there are competing formats. To further compound the problem is the feeling among consumers that SD-DVD is "good-enough". So a lower price might appeal to a very limited number of early adopters or people wishing to go format neutral (or format war prolongers, take your pick), it would mean zip to the average consumer.
These formats could very well be a niche. I must admit that I'm pretty surprised about how upscaling adds a bit of polish to DVDs that are well mastered. Both formats will have to break out a bit more than HD quality if they wish to sell movies that are much more expensive than DVD.
And even the "HD DVD is cheaper" argument is specious. It's the same thing people have always said about the Mac costing more than PCs. Yes, the initial outlay for hardware may be more, but the TCO will be higher for HD DVD in the long run, since Universal insists on releasing all newer titles as combo discs. All those $4-5 DVD layers that HD DVD buyers don't have the option to refuse add up over time.
True but many Fox and Lionsgate movies are $27 even without the extra combo functionality.
At the least, Blu-ray doesn't loose.
Whether that means HD DVD coexists with Blu-ray or is slaughtered off by it completely is still up in the air.
Yes ...the only people that hate the idea of peaceful co-existence are studios who'd have to deliver content to both formats.
Yes ...the only people that hate the idea of peaceful co-existence are studios who'd have to deliver content to both formats.
Producers: twice as many types of items to produce, distinct production lines, additional cost.
Distributors and retailers: twice as many items to track, more retail shelf space consumed, so a smaller selection of titles can be sold, additional cost.
Consumers: these formats are identical in capability, so why is my player incompatible with my cousin's discs and vice versa? Why doesn't the game console I want play my movie discs? Why do I pay more and get a smaller selection of titles at the store?
I don't know how the licensing is set up, ie. if only one format is left standing, is it possible that format gets jacked up in price or not. But one format vs. two equal formats hardly seems like cut and dried for the consumer.
Dude...your attacking phantom arguments here. I clearly said "save for the PS3". I'm scracthing here wondering how you got me ignoring the PS3 right now. ... Pay attention.
I'm really feeling like you devasted my argument and humbled me here. Shall I aquiesce an genuflect in honor of your greatness?
Ahh!
You can genuflect if you want to, or we could both genuflect together in a glorified and gracious genuflection dance?
mm.. underwater synchronised genuflection routines in the next Olympics? might be cool huh?
I agree. It's a far more natural progression for Blu-ray to reduce the price than HD DVD suddenly appeal to Disney/Fox etc as these studios are so antagonistic toward HD DVD. Which is one of the reasons why the EC is investigating IMO.
HD DVD...no region coding.
Blu-Ray...region coding.
HD DVD...AACS (partially broken now)
Blu-Ray...AACS, ROM Mark and BD+
An objective measure as to why some studios that have always been more protective of thier movies would prefer one over the other despite cost. Fox stated that the additional protection was why it favored Blu-Ray.
""We made no secret when we approached both formats that we'd make a decision primarily on content protection," said Andrew Setos, president of engineering for the Fox Entertainment Group, in an interview.
"Our announcement last Friday that we would be in fact publishing on Blu-Ray disc best was a result of content protection, and no other issues," Setos added, including the potential cost of replicating the discs."
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1845993,00.asp
"I know many people of the industry try to cover up this breach, by saying I have only poked a tiny hole in AACS, but it is more serious than that. Only the future will tell.
The AACS security layer is almost the same for both HD-DVD and Blu-ray, so they are both busted for good.
The only extra security layer is for the Blu-ray format, and it's called BD+. BD+ is not there yet, and I don't know when it will be. May be my "exploits" will speed up the adoption of BD+, we will see..."
http://www.slyck.com/story1390.html
The studios have never hidden that DRM was a significant consideration and HD-DVD's whining to the EU has zero merit when they ignored the desires of the primary content providers.
Disney and Fox's distrust of just AACS has been validated. Multi-layered defense, even if not quite there yet, is a better concept than a single layer. Like safes, DRM isn't meant to be total protection...just enough to make widespread copying annoying. That's likely a lost cause but certainly something the studios can rightly claim is a major differentiating factor between the two formats that they have publically stated in the past.
Yes ...the only people that hate the idea of peaceful co-existence are studios who'd have to deliver content to both formats.
And CE makers and consumers. That's just about...everyone.
Vinea
On the upside.... What should we expect from E3 next week?...
Few rumors about possible price drops on all gaming hardwares including....
PS3 $599 to $499
Xbox360 Elite $499 to $449
360 HD-DVD add one $199 to $99 (drive only) and $149 (remote + movie)
How would these price drops play in the HD movie adoption? I would think $99 HD-DVD drive would sell like a hot cake for Xbox360 fans and HTPC enthusiasts.
PS3 is officially $499 for the 60gb version. That includes 5 free Blu-ray movies, as well.
Yup, I'm sure this move will be a good Blu-ray movie pusher...
http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=303
mm.. underwater synchronised genuflection routines in the next Olympics? might be cool huh?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WxCEkhGbfM
I couldn't resist...hahahahha.
Is that Murch played by Martin Short?...J.K. big guy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WxCEkhGbfM
I couldn't resist...hahahahha.
Is that Murch played by Martin Short?...J.K. big guy!
That was actually worth seeing
"Who would want to wear bronze anyway?"
PS3 is officially $499 for the 60gb version. That includes 5 free Blu-ray movies, as well.
And the remote is being included for free now at Amazon. The PS3 now has the top spot in Amazon's video game section and is outselling even the Wii.
Meanwhile, in other news, 300 on Blu-ray has been beating its HD DVD counterpart for days now. And that's not taking into account that even when an HD DVD disc outranks the same film on Blu-ray on Amazon, it still comes out with lower overall sales figures in the market (see Planet Earth). What was that Murch said? "I guarantee you that 300 will sell more HD DVD copies." So, Murch, was that a money back guarantee? Care to make any other predictions about how HD DVD is going to destroy Blu-ray?
I honestly don't see how Apple can't choose Blu-ray as the exclusive next generation optical drive in the eventual Mac Pro update. I'm sure Apple can see that the writing is on the wall and there's no point in supporting another format that's losing on all fronts. Especially since they already believe enough in Blu-ray to be on its board of directors, not just as a supporting member.
And the remote is being included for free now at Amazon. The PS3 now has the top spot in Amazon's video game section and is outselling even the Wii.
Meanwhile, in other news, 300 on Blu-ray has been beating its HD DVD counterpart for days now. And that's not taking into account that even when an HD DVD disc outranks the same film on Blu-ray on Amazon, it still comes out with lower overall sales figures in the market (see Planet Earth). What was that Murch said? "I guarantee you that 300 will sell more HD DVD copies." So, Murch, was that a money back guarantee? Care to make any other predictions about how HD DVD is going to destroy Blu-ray?
I honestly don't see how Apple can't choose Blu-ray as the exclusive next generation optical drive in the eventual Mac Pro update. I'm sure Apple can see that the writing is on the wall and there's no point in supporting another format that's losing on all fronts. Especially since they already believe enough in Blu-ray to be on its board of directors, not just as a supporting member.
I agree. I think Apple's primary focus currently is the iPhone, but I think all they're waiting for is the ability to insert a Blu-ray drive into their offerings that won't necessarily spike the cost of their machines. I think all indicators are pointing to standard Blu-ray drives in Apple's Pro offerings come MacWorld 08.
Posted July 10, 2007 by Josh
Sony Pictures Home Entertainment has announced that they will bring the Jack Nicholson classic 'A Few Good Men' to Blu-ray on September 18th. Featuring one of the most quoted movie lines ever, this title has proven a huge seller on DVD, and will surely be a favorite on Blu-ray. Video will be presented in 1080p and accompanied by a PCM soundtrack.
Tom Cruise, Jack Nicholson and Demi Moore star in Rob Reiner's unanimously acclaimed drama about the dangerous difference between following orders and following one's conscience. Cruise stars as a brash Navy lawyer who's teamed with a gung-ho litigator (Moore) in a politically explosive murder case. Charged with defending two Marines accused of killing a fellow soldier, they are confronted with complex issues of loyalty and honor, including its most sacred code and its most formidable warrior (Nicholson). Superbly directed with a trio of powerhouse performances and an outstanding supporting cast including Kevin Pollak, Kiefer Sutherland and Kevin Bacon.
I love this movie! Sony best being giving it some high bitrate, AVC encoding, BD50 love come September!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WxCEkhGbfM
I couldn't resist...hahahahha.
Is that Murch played by Martin Short?...J.K. big guy!
I love this movie! Sony best being giving it some high bitrate, AVC encoding, BD50 love come September!
Oh that's just wrooooong. LOL
Green with envy. I was just thinking about AFGM last night and lo and behold it's announced. I hope it looks good.
I agree. I think Apple's primary focus currently is the iPhone, but I think all they're waiting for is the ability to insert a Blu-ray drive into their offerings that won't necessarily spike the cost of their machines. I think all indicators are pointing to standard Blu-ray drives in Apple's Pro offerings come MacWorld 08.
Well, then again, it's not like they have any other options. Toshiba still doesn't have an HD DVD burner available for sale, despite several announcements about how it was imminent over the past twelve months. Blu-ray burners are available from several manufacturers.
Well, then again, it's not like they have any other options. Toshiba still doesn't have an HD DVD burner available for sale, despite several announcements about how it was imminent over the past twelve months. Blu-ray burners are available from several manufacturers.
This is one area I have to give credit to Blu-Ray. I was updating my Nero 7 and it now allows Blu-Ray authoring onto BD-RW and regular DVD's. Not that I can do this now because the ridiculous pricing of Blur-Ray burner/drive, but it's still good option to have for the future once the price drops. The update also inlcludes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playback feature via "showtime" software for free. I'm sure the HD-DVD authoring will be added soon, once the HD-DVD burners are released.
This is for those Star Trek fans. Paramount announced to release Star Trek on HD-DVD. No news on Blu-Ray version as of date.
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/...s_Revealed/756
This is for those Star Trek fans. Paramount announced to release Star Trek on HD-DVD. No news on Blu-Ray version as of date.
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/...s_Revealed/756
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "Set phasers to stun"
This is one area I have to give credit to Blu-Ray. I was updating my Nero 7 and it now allows Blu-Ray authoring onto BD-RW and regular DVD's. Not that I can do this now because the ridiculous pricing of Blur-Ray burner/drive, but it's still good option to have for the future once the price drops. The update also inlcludes HD-DVD and Blu-Ray playback feature via "showtime" software for free. I'm sure the HD-DVD authoring will be added soon, once the HD-DVD burners are released.
You and I must have been doing the same thing last night...I also updated my Nero 7 and noticed the same thing--Nero having Blu-ray authoring updates.