I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
If you look back to the role out of SD-DVD days, many consumers were sold on the interactive menu and the instantly accessible main and extra features on the DVD vs. VHS. Of course the PQ improvement was the main selling point, although, using S-Video cable over the AV cable alone provided some level of improvements in most systems.
Whether one may use the feature or not, the extra feature is always just an extra when it has to be played separately. However, if these extras can be played more interactively during the movie, it actually provides another level of "in movie experience". Knowing how some movies are edited as almost incomplete as a story can now be easily supplemented with IME directors or narrators explanations. This is just one example of the feature, but once you get into profile 2.0 with internet interactivity can further add option of vast possibilities of even more extra features.
Even when you guys complain now without even experiencing such features or the potential of it, I'm sure once you have seen the potential, you would not complain about the added features on your nextgen home theater experience.
BTW, why do you think BDA mandated on such spec on the future Blu-Ray players if it wasn't so important?
One prediction I can make now is that once profile 1.1/2.0 standalone players and also when profile 1.1/2.0 featured softwares come out, we'll hear all about it from some of the BD cheerleaders on this forum. The BD cheerleaders would incessantly tell us about how great it is and how much it's better to HD-DVD HDi.... yada... yada.......... I can totally see this already.....
The fact is that all HD-DVD players are fully spec'ed to what would be comparable to BD profile 2.0 from the start, but none of Standalone Blu-Ray players today has hardware to perform such task. The mandated date for profile 1.1 was Oct.31, but it seems it has been postponed to November.
Anyway, this is the main reason why most AV enthusiasts refer Blu-Ray as beta technology(no pun intended), because of the beta status of the yet to be finalized hardware spec.
and IF that was the way HD-DVD did it, I bet he would call the BD way of doing it (assuming it would be different) "fake" anyway.
The thing is, if there is a PiP option on the menu and it WORKS is it fake? mmm hard to tell really
these posts sum it up nicely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xradman
It seems the PIP commentaries for both Descent and Crank are separate hard encoded movies on these discs rather than true PIP overlays. What is especially frustrating is that menu option is disabled when playing the movie in this mode. Anyone find an easy way to switch between the regular movie and PIP commentary enabled movie?
Quote:
Originally Posted by I WUV HD
1. The Descent does NOT use a secondary video stream, which is what PiP is defined as by the HD DVD and BD specs.
2. The Descent doesn't currently work on two of the standalone players, one of which is the Sony.
The Descent is NOT IME or any variation of advanced content. You know what they did? They cheated. Instead of using a second video stream (which would not be supported by any of the standalone players - the PS3 might, but it's never been confirmed) they put a SECOND copy of the movie on the disc. The second copy has the PiP permanently burned into the video. The disc uses seamless branching to support the fake PiP. That's right - they're using 50GB to achieve what HD DVD can in 30GB. HD DVD doesn't need to put a second copy on the disc for PiP, because all players support secondary video streams. Don't you wish the BD specs had made more features mandatory?
This has been discussed at length over on AVS, but suffice it to say, the Descent is an example of a cheap workaround, not true PiP (as defined by BD and HD DVD specs.)
I'm not saying you gotta give a damn Walter but don't go trying to cram any kind of Blu-ray technical superiority down my throat. Blu-ray technical shortcomings are fairly masked. I do believe Marzetta7 said BD-J can do everything that HDi can and more. Yet another Blu-ray blowhard talking about stuff he doesn't understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
Depends on the movie and extras. I LOVE the LotR EE extras because they add value to an epic movie. However your garden variety film may not offer the same effect.
Therefore, if Murch was referring to BD profile 1.1/2.0 as a BD-J, he is correct .
If he's is referring to Profile 1.1 (or BD-Video 1.1) he should say so. Calling it BD-J only confuses things.
Here is a nice explanation from AVSForum:
Over the last year I have read much on the issue of Blu-ray player profiles from various insiders and based on what I have heard have made this thread about them. There is one Blu-ray spec and in it there are four profiles which includes an audio only profile. Leaving out the audio profile from this thread there are three player profiles made for video playback. After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players must meet the requirements for at least BD-Video 1.1 though older Blu-ray players can continue to be sold. Here are the requirements for the three Blu-ray player profiles:
BD-Video 1.0:
64 KB of persistent memory required
no HD/SD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required
BD-Video 1.1:
256 MB of persistent memory required
HD/SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required
BD-Live:
1 GB of persistent memory required
HD/SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet capability required
Frequently Asked Questions (last updated July 6 2007)
1. Why are there three Blu-ray player profiles?
All three player profiles for Blu-ray were originally made back at the time the Blu-ray specs were originally made. At that time it was known that it would take a while to implement certain features such as HD PiP decoding which would require the development of all new video decoding chips, which only now are beginning to be mass manufactured. As such the plan was to eventually replace the BD-Video 1.0 specs with the BD-Video 1.1 specs by requiring all new players released after a certain date to meet the requirements for it. The BD-Live specs were to be optional for those who wanted to connect their Blu-ray player to the internet.
2. Is BD-J a requirement for all Blu-ray players?
Yes, all three Blu-ray player profiles require BD-J support and will be capable of normal BD-J interactivity for menus and games. Note though that certain extras may require features that are unique to BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live.
3. Should I wait for BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live players?
That depends. Though BD-Video 1.0 players will always be capable of playing Blu-ray movies and normal BD-J interactivity they will not be capable of certain extras such as PiP decoding. If you are interested in those extras than it would be best to wait for Blu-ray players to be released that can support them.
4. Could a BD-Video 1.0 player be updated to BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live?
That is possible if it had the necessary hardware but most likely none of the current stand alone Blu-ray players do. The only current Blu-ray player that might be updated is the PS3 though nothing official has been said about that.
5. What is secondary audio decoding?
This allows for the mixing of two different audio tracks. For instance this would allow for the audio stream included with a PiP video stream to be mixed into the primary audio stream.
6. Are the HD DVD player requirements all mandatory?
No, though rarely mentioned there is an optional component of HD DVD called the Enhanced Video secondary decoder (HD PiP decoder). So far I have not heard of any current or upcoming HD DVD player that is known to have it. The bitrates for both the Enhanced Video secondary decoder (HD PiP decoder) and the Standard Video secondary decoder (SD PiP decoder) can be seen here:
Standard Video secondary decoder (mandatory)
MPEG-2
1.8 Megabits buffer
3 Mbps average bitrate
6 Mbps peak bitrate
MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1
2 Megabits buffer
2 Mbps average bitrate
4 Mbps peak bitrate
Enhanced Video secondary decoder (optional)
All Video Codecs
7.5 Megabits buffer
8 Mbps average bitrate
15 Mbps peak bitrate
7. So did the BDA delay the implementation of PiP decoding in Blu-ray because of HD PiP?
Yes, and the benefit of this is that if a Blu-ray player is capable of PiP decoding it will support both SD PiP and HD PiP. As such a studio can choose which to use based on what they are planning to do with it.
8. What would be the benefit of HD PiP?
There are two scenarios in which HD PiP would be beneficial. The first scenario is when you are able to make the PiP video full screen in which case a HD PiP would obviously be beneficial. The second scenario is the ability to overlay the main video with the PiP video by using the luma key data of the PiP video which, if within a certain range of values, indicates the primary video should be shown for those pixels. To give a simple example of this you could have a PiP window with the director in it moving to different positions across the screen as needed. Than when he wants to point something out in the movie he can make a circle actually appear around that object. In fact when needed what looks to be a second PiP window could appear and disappear as needed. Once again HD PiP would be beneficial in this scenario.
9. Has there been a real world example in which HD PiP would have been beneficial?
Such an example can be seen in this review of Freedom which was released on HD DVD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by High-Def Digest review
The only hiccup to these welcome options is that the video content in the PiP video isn't presented in high definition -- when I popped it into the main window, the picture was pixilated and flooded with noise
10. What video decoding chips are capable of decoding HD PiP?
The Sigma Designs SMP8634 Rev. C and the Broadcom BCM7440 are two decoding chips that are capable of decoding HD PiP.
11. Have any BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live players been officially announced yet?
Even when you guys complain now without even experiencing such features or the potential of it, I'm sure once you have seen the potential, you would not complain about the added features on your nextgen home theater experience.
I'm not complaining that they'll be included - I just don't care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
The BD cheerleaders would incessantly tell us about how great it is and how much it's better to HD-DVD HDi.... yada... yada.......... I can totally see this already.....
Well, Blu-ray will have PiP in HD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
The fact is that all HD-DVD players are fully spec'ed to what would be comparable to BD profile 2.0 from the start.
BD Profile 2.0 has better specs than the current HD DBD specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
The mandated date for profile 1.1 was Oct.31, but it seems it has been postponed to November.
Where did you read that?
The original date was/is November 1 since players released after October 31 has to support BD Profile 1.1.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitemymac
Anyway, this is the main reason why most AV enthusiasts refer Blu-Ray as beta technology(no pun intended), because of the beta status of the yet to be finalized hardware spec.
Which means that HD DVD is beta too? There are talks about TL51 and region codes.
maybe you missed THIS bit from your random selection quote from anyone on the vast (and questionable sometimes) internets
Quote:
This has been discussed at length over on AVS, but suffice it to say, the Descent is an example of a cheap workaround, not true PiP (as defined by BD and HD DVD specs.)
so the DISC did a bodge job, not the format, but you want to imply from one disc that the whole format is a sack of shit. but then I can see why you like to single out ONE SINGLE thing, like mm perhaps those sales ranks for amazon perhaps.
basically if it suits your argument, you will use it, if not you ignore it and hope everyone else forgets. letsd see that again
Quote:
not true PiP (as defined by BD and HD DVD specs.)
So from that we could infer that the BD specs do not include the implementation of PiP that is included on the Descent disc.
but hey, HD-DVD was great when it didn't have many bonus feature shipping, but great when it did as well.
BD had to many according to you, when it had more than HD-DVD, but now it has too few
What you gonna change your stance on next? dear murchy dear murchy with what shall you change it dear murchy with what?
but then THIS is priceless
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
I'm not saying you gotta give a damn Walter but don't go trying to cram any kind of Blu-ray technical superiority down my throat. Blu-ray technical shortcomings are fairly masked. I do believe Marzetta7 said BD-J can do everything that HDi can and more. Yet another Blu-ray blowhard talking about stuff he doesn't understand.
I don't give a damn really, but how is Marzetta any more of a blowhard than you are? why should I believe you over the actual SALES FIGURES?
look at where the ship is sailing, look at all the people on it, but then I suppose from you point of view having missed the boat an all, I guess you have to content yourself with the water being great to paddle in
-
damn it, somtimes I think we're too hard on you, then sometimes I think you ask for it.
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
I used to be an avid "extras" watcher, and infact will still pick the "2 disc" version if its only marginally more expensive. However recently I just cant be bothered going to the extra effort of watching them, some of em are as dull as can be Actor profiles I can get online if I'm overly bothered. alot of the docus and 'how we did this or that' seem to be just a load of self gratification that I can live without, who wants to hear the B-list actors say how pleased they are to work with Tom cruise? or why the director chose this shot (over another that you dont even get to see) I mean if I cant work it out for myself I wasnt really paying attention in the first place was I?
Maybe its because at this stage I know how blue and green screen works, CGI, digital overlay film and post producition grading etc.
It's all a bit "meh", of course thats just me, and as I say I used to watch all this stuff avidly (no pun intended) so I have no problem with it being on there for people who are still fresh to it.
Last extra I remember watching was a docu on the "chitty Chitty Bang Bang" disc good fun.
It will take at least a year or more for J6P to become the marching soldiers for neither format. They're currently siding with SD-DVD as you know. Hence, the J6P contributions to the current HiDef formats is not an issue for the time being. Therefore, the popularity vote of the AV enthusiasts are much needed and the compatibility options for all formats will win the interest of the enthusiasts. So, for the time being, I'm looking forward to see Universal players or hybrid computer drives as the temporary solution to the format war for those enthusiasts. This is the only solution to keep HiDef movies formats(both Blu-Ray & HD-DVD) alive/or to expand within the enthusiast circle.
That is the whole point...for NOW. Obviously a Universal Player situation works for a short time and for some consumers. But it's not sustainable. That's the point I am making.
Quote:
For the rest of market?....... you have wait or become an AV enthusiast yourself. Sony definitely tried this tactic by trying to turn every PS3 owners into AV enthusiast.... Of course, it wasn't very successfully, but was well worth a try. At least Blu-Ray is now saving PS3 , ironically......
Given that the PS3 has driven a lot of blu-ray sales, you're quite wrong about that. I don't know about the owners being "enthusiasts," but they are buying and renting BD titles. I use my PS3 as a bd player about 90% of the time. I didn't buy it for that reason, either.
Given that the PS3 has driven a lot of blu-ray sales, you're quite wrong about that. I don't know about the owners being "enthusiasts," but they are buying and renting BD titles. I use my PS3 as a bd player about 90% of the time. I didn't buy it for that reason, either.
Well, you're definitely a small percentage of the PS3 owners and you may be the ideal customer Sony would like to clone x(gazillions). Sony would probably want you to enjoy BD movies during the time of PS3 game drought and start buying games once available.
Soon, there will be a time where PS3 influence in the BD supporting will be very small once cheaper BD Standalone players roles out. It is actually already happening and you can now find Standalone BD players below PS3 prices. This would also trigger steep decrease in PS3 popularity because PS3 becomes less favorable as BD Players even at the price point/features. PS3 has already failed/or failed to succeed as a nextgen gaming console at the price point, so that's that....
Anyway, your points are well taken, but over 90% of PS3 owners bought it solely for gaming. All in all, it's a lot better using PS3 as a BD Player than just a door stop and every HiDef movie purchases count to support HiDef market as whole. So, keep up the good work, we need all the HiDef movie support right now to compete with SD-DVD's.
Well great news, you gonna spring for one at that price?
I dont keep a great track of exactly who says exactly what on this thread, but within about the last 5 pages, I believe (and I don't mind being corrected) bitemymac says one of the Tosh players is $199 (of course thats likely US dollars) and then theres the special promo where it was being dumped off for $99. I couldnt really be bothered trawling for it, but its there
The $99 is true but you have to be at the special promotion to get it for that price. But there are places practically giving them away for $199 with movies. They are already obsolete. Many companies and businesses like blockbuster are taking them off the shelves. HD DVD is crashing and crashing hard. I give it to christmas and it'll be dead IMHO. Blu-ray is doing well with the 2nd gen players and lower costs, not to mention the PS3 that I hate and is doing wonders for Blu-ray sales.
Well, you're definitely a small percentage of the PS3 owners and you may be the ideal customer Sony would like to clone x(gazillions). Sony would probably want you to enjoy BD movies during the time of PS3 game drought and start buying games once available.
Soon, there will be a time where PS3 influence in the BD supporting will be very small once cheaper BD Standalone players roles out. It is actually already happening and you can now find Standalone BD players below PS3 prices. This would also trigger steep decrease in PS3 popularity because PS3 becomes less favorable as BD Players even at the price point/features. PS3 has already failed/or failed to succeed as a nextgen gaming console at the price point, so that's that....
Anyway, your points are well taken, but over 90% of PS3 owners bought it solely for gaming. All in all, it's a lot better using PS3 as a BD Player than just a door stop and every HiDef movie purchases count to support HiDef market as whole. So, keep up the good work, we need all the HiDef movie support right now to compete with SD-DVD's.
you'd be quite surprised how many people bought the PS3 solely for watching BD movies. check out www.blu-ray.com and see for yourself. i've been a member there for awhile and i can tell you first hand the PS3 is an excellent blu-ray player thru the firmware updates and also equiped with HDMI v1.3 for deep color and other capabilities that none of the current blu-ray players have. the majority of a/v enthusiasts buy them only for movies. the PS3 has the capability to be updated all the time to provide the latest and greatest. I believe the next update is scheduled to have the DTS-MA decoders. the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
Blu-ray had no releases, and yet maintained a 61% marketshare lead. I hate (not really) to see what the percentages are going to be once Fox is back on board and Warner finally releases its blockbusters on Blu-ray.
Well, you're definitely a small percentage of the PS3 owners and you may be the ideal customer Sony would like to clone x(gazillions). Sony would probably want you to enjoy BD movies during the time of PS3 game drought and start buying games once available.
Soon, there will be a time where PS3 influence in the BD supporting will be very small once cheaper BD Standalone players roles out. It is actually already happening and you can now find Standalone BD players below PS3 prices. This would also trigger steep decrease in PS3 popularity because PS3 becomes less favorable as BD Players even at the price point/features. PS3 has already failed/or failed to succeed as a nextgen gaming console at the price point, so that's that....
Anyway, your points are well taken, but over 90% of PS3 owners bought it solely for gaming. All in all, it's a lot better using PS3 as a BD Player than just a door stop and every HiDef movie purchases count to support HiDef market as whole. So, keep up the good work, we need all the HiDef movie support right now to compete with SD-DVD's.
WOW I read that and its like I get BILE all over my eyes!
Did you buy a game cube, and then the tough kids came over with their PSOnes and beat you up?
Cos man! Sony or someone did something to you real bad, at least thats the way it sounds.
the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
I'm typically the last one to rush to defense of Sony, and especially the PS3, but the first year of a console's lifespan is the worst time to judge its games library. Look at the Nintendo DS (awful first year, now the best-selling console on the planet) or even the Xbox 360, which had largely crummy software for its first year on the market.
It takes time for Major Works to be completed for any console.
you'd be quite surprised how many people bought the PS3 solely for watching BD movies. check out www.blu-ray.com and see for yourself. i've been a member there for awhile and i can tell you first hand the PS3 is an excellent blu-ray player thru the firmware updates and also equiped with HDMI v1.3 for deep color and other capabilities that none of the current blu-ray players have. the majority of a/v enthusiasts buy them only for movies. the PS3 has the capability to be updated all the time to provide the latest and greatest. I believe the next update is scheduled to have the DTS-MA decoders. the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
This holds true for last 6 months when PS3 was the cheapest/most complied BD Player. During next 6 months, there are plans of better BD players with full BD profile compliance and HQV(SD & HD) playback. Also, most new players will incuding hardware audio decoding capabilities for the HD-audio. But most importantly, the prices are getting cheaper even below PS3.
Another AV-enthusiast favorable feature of these new BD players would inlcude universal format playback, including both BD & HD-DVD and the SD-DVD as well. LG already have such player and Samsung has plans for universal format player for the holidays and many will follow. Therefore, PS3 will no longer retain it's value as a BD player unless PS3 price drops to $199 in the next 6 months.
Either way, the prices of these newer BD players will be still too high for the holidays, but HD-DVD players are in a lot better price point to lure in even the upconverting SD-DVD player seekers. The price war winner will be the winner out of the HiDef format War.
Given what Warner is doing with 300 I'm not so hot on web-enabled features anymore.
The last thing I want is for studios to try to sell me ring tones and wallpapers through my movie discs. Wanna bet some studio ends up doing ads or something DURING the movie at some point? Shades of TiVO's interactive advertising...
Instead of putting in extras (web-enabled and otherwise) that people aren't clamoring for, the studios really should take out what people really hate. Does anyone really think the FBI warning makes any pirate realize the error of his ways? Yet there they are for 15 or 30 seconds that you just can't fast forward through, doing nothing but annoying people who probably bought the disc legally.
Comments
The thing is, if there is a PiP option on the menu and it WORKS is it fake? mmm hard to tell really
Seriously.
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
If you look back to the role out of SD-DVD days, many consumers were sold on the interactive menu and the instantly accessible main and extra features on the DVD vs. VHS. Of course the PQ improvement was the main selling point, although, using S-Video cable over the AV cable alone provided some level of improvements in most systems.
Whether one may use the feature or not, the extra feature is always just an extra when it has to be played separately. However, if these extras can be played more interactively during the movie, it actually provides another level of "in movie experience". Knowing how some movies are edited as almost incomplete as a story can now be easily supplemented with IME directors or narrators explanations. This is just one example of the feature, but once you get into profile 2.0 with internet interactivity can further add option of vast possibilities of even more extra features.
Even when you guys complain now without even experiencing such features or the potential of it, I'm sure once you have seen the potential, you would not complain about the added features on your nextgen home theater experience.
BTW, why do you think BDA mandated on such spec on the future Blu-Ray players if it wasn't so important?
One prediction I can make now is that once profile 1.1/2.0 standalone players and also when profile 1.1/2.0 featured softwares come out, we'll hear all about it from some of the BD cheerleaders on this forum. The BD cheerleaders would incessantly tell us about how great it is and how much it's better to HD-DVD HDi.... yada... yada.......... I can totally see this already.....
The fact is that all HD-DVD players are fully spec'ed to what would be comparable to BD profile 2.0 from the start, but none of Standalone Blu-Ray players today has hardware to perform such task. The mandated date for profile 1.1 was Oct.31, but it seems it has been postponed to November.
Anyway, this is the main reason why most AV enthusiasts refer Blu-Ray as beta technology(no pun intended), because of the beta status of the yet to be finalized hardware spec.
and IF that was the way HD-DVD did it, I bet he would call the BD way of doing it (assuming it would be different) "fake" anyway.
The thing is, if there is a PiP option on the menu and it WORKS is it fake? mmm hard to tell really
these posts sum it up nicely.
It seems the PIP commentaries for both Descent and Crank are separate hard encoded movies on these discs rather than true PIP overlays. What is especially frustrating is that menu option is disabled when playing the movie in this mode. Anyone find an easy way to switch between the regular movie and PIP commentary enabled movie?
1. The Descent does NOT use a secondary video stream, which is what PiP is defined as by the HD DVD and BD specs.
2. The Descent doesn't currently work on two of the standalone players, one of which is the Sony.
The Descent is NOT IME or any variation of advanced content. You know what they did? They cheated. Instead of using a second video stream (which would not be supported by any of the standalone players - the PS3 might, but it's never been confirmed) they put a SECOND copy of the movie on the disc. The second copy has the PiP permanently burned into the video. The disc uses seamless branching to support the fake PiP. That's right - they're using 50GB to achieve what HD DVD can in 30GB. HD DVD doesn't need to put a second copy on the disc for PiP, because all players support secondary video streams. Don't you wish the BD specs had made more features mandatory?
This has been discussed at length over on AVS, but suffice it to say, the Descent is an example of a cheap workaround, not true PiP (as defined by BD and HD DVD specs.)
I'm not saying you gotta give a damn Walter but don't go trying to cram any kind of Blu-ray technical superiority down my throat. Blu-ray technical shortcomings are fairly masked. I do believe Marzetta7 said BD-J can do everything that HDi can and more. Yet another Blu-ray blowhard talking about stuff he doesn't understand.
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
Depends on the movie and extras. I LOVE the LotR EE extras because they add value to an epic movie. However your garden variety film may not offer the same effect.
Therefore, if Murch was referring to BD profile 1.1/2.0 as a BD-J, he is correct .
If he's is referring to Profile 1.1 (or BD-Video 1.1) he should say so. Calling it BD-J only confuses things.
Here is a nice explanation from AVSForum:
Over the last year I have read much on the issue of Blu-ray player profiles from various insiders and based on what I have heard have made this thread about them. There is one Blu-ray spec and in it there are four profiles which includes an audio only profile. Leaving out the audio profile from this thread there are three player profiles made for video playback. After October 31st of 2007 all new Blu-ray players must meet the requirements for at least BD-Video 1.1 though older Blu-ray players can continue to be sold. Here are the requirements for the three Blu-ray player profiles:
BD-Video 1.0:
64 KB of persistent memory required
no HD/SD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required
BD-Video 1.1:
256 MB of persistent memory required
HD/SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet capability required
BD-Live:
1 GB of persistent memory required
HD/SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet capability required
Frequently Asked Questions (last updated July 6 2007)
1. Why are there three Blu-ray player profiles?
All three player profiles for Blu-ray were originally made back at the time the Blu-ray specs were originally made. At that time it was known that it would take a while to implement certain features such as HD PiP decoding which would require the development of all new video decoding chips, which only now are beginning to be mass manufactured. As such the plan was to eventually replace the BD-Video 1.0 specs with the BD-Video 1.1 specs by requiring all new players released after a certain date to meet the requirements for it. The BD-Live specs were to be optional for those who wanted to connect their Blu-ray player to the internet.
2. Is BD-J a requirement for all Blu-ray players?
Yes, all three Blu-ray player profiles require BD-J support and will be capable of normal BD-J interactivity for menus and games. Note though that certain extras may require features that are unique to BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live.
3. Should I wait for BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live players?
That depends. Though BD-Video 1.0 players will always be capable of playing Blu-ray movies and normal BD-J interactivity they will not be capable of certain extras such as PiP decoding. If you are interested in those extras than it would be best to wait for Blu-ray players to be released that can support them.
4. Could a BD-Video 1.0 player be updated to BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live?
That is possible if it had the necessary hardware but most likely none of the current stand alone Blu-ray players do. The only current Blu-ray player that might be updated is the PS3 though nothing official has been said about that.
5. What is secondary audio decoding?
This allows for the mixing of two different audio tracks. For instance this would allow for the audio stream included with a PiP video stream to be mixed into the primary audio stream.
6. Are the HD DVD player requirements all mandatory?
No, though rarely mentioned there is an optional component of HD DVD called the Enhanced Video secondary decoder (HD PiP decoder). So far I have not heard of any current or upcoming HD DVD player that is known to have it. The bitrates for both the Enhanced Video secondary decoder (HD PiP decoder) and the Standard Video secondary decoder (SD PiP decoder) can be seen here:
Standard Video secondary decoder (mandatory)
MPEG-2
1.8 Megabits buffer
3 Mbps average bitrate
6 Mbps peak bitrate
MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1
2 Megabits buffer
2 Mbps average bitrate
4 Mbps peak bitrate
Enhanced Video secondary decoder (optional)
All Video Codecs
7.5 Megabits buffer
8 Mbps average bitrate
15 Mbps peak bitrate
7. So did the BDA delay the implementation of PiP decoding in Blu-ray because of HD PiP?
Yes, and the benefit of this is that if a Blu-ray player is capable of PiP decoding it will support both SD PiP and HD PiP. As such a studio can choose which to use based on what they are planning to do with it.
8. What would be the benefit of HD PiP?
There are two scenarios in which HD PiP would be beneficial. The first scenario is when you are able to make the PiP video full screen in which case a HD PiP would obviously be beneficial. The second scenario is the ability to overlay the main video with the PiP video by using the luma key data of the PiP video which, if within a certain range of values, indicates the primary video should be shown for those pixels. To give a simple example of this you could have a PiP window with the director in it moving to different positions across the screen as needed. Than when he wants to point something out in the movie he can make a circle actually appear around that object. In fact when needed what looks to be a second PiP window could appear and disappear as needed. Once again HD PiP would be beneficial in this scenario.
9. Has there been a real world example in which HD PiP would have been beneficial?
Such an example can be seen in this review of Freedom which was released on HD DVD:
Quote:
Originally Posted by High-Def Digest review
The only hiccup to these welcome options is that the video content in the PiP video isn't presented in high definition -- when I popped it into the main window, the picture was pixilated and flooded with noise
10. What video decoding chips are capable of decoding HD PiP?
The Sigma Designs SMP8634 Rev. C and the Broadcom BCM7440 are two decoding chips that are capable of decoding HD PiP.
11. Have any BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live players been officially announced yet?
No, not yet.
Even when you guys complain now without even experiencing such features or the potential of it, I'm sure once you have seen the potential, you would not complain about the added features on your nextgen home theater experience.
I'm not complaining that they'll be included - I just don't care.
The BD cheerleaders would incessantly tell us about how great it is and how much it's better to HD-DVD HDi.... yada... yada.......... I can totally see this already.....
Well, Blu-ray will have PiP in HD.
The fact is that all HD-DVD players are fully spec'ed to what would be comparable to BD profile 2.0 from the start.
BD Profile 2.0 has better specs than the current HD DBD specs.
The mandated date for profile 1.1 was Oct.31, but it seems it has been postponed to November.
Where did you read that?
The original date was/is November 1 since players released after October 31 has to support BD Profile 1.1.
Anyway, this is the main reason why most AV enthusiasts refer Blu-Ray as beta technology(no pun intended), because of the beta status of the yet to be finalized hardware spec.
Which means that HD DVD is beta too? There are talks about TL51 and region codes.
these posts sum it up nicely.
maybe you missed THIS bit from your random selection quote from anyone on the vast (and questionable sometimes) internets
This has been discussed at length over on AVS, but suffice it to say, the Descent is an example of a cheap workaround, not true PiP (as defined by BD and HD DVD specs.)
so the DISC did a bodge job, not the format, but you want to imply from one disc that the whole format is a sack of shit. but then I can see why you like to single out ONE SINGLE thing, like mm perhaps those sales ranks for amazon perhaps.
basically if it suits your argument, you will use it, if not you ignore it and hope everyone else forgets. letsd see that again
not true PiP (as defined by BD and HD DVD specs.)
So from that we could infer that the BD specs do not include the implementation of PiP that is included on the Descent disc.
but hey, HD-DVD was great when it didn't have many bonus feature shipping, but great when it did as well.
BD had to many according to you, when it had more than HD-DVD, but now it has too few
What you gonna change your stance on next? dear murchy dear murchy with what shall you change it dear murchy with what?
but then THIS is priceless
I'm not saying you gotta give a damn Walter but don't go trying to cram any kind of Blu-ray technical superiority down my throat. Blu-ray technical shortcomings are fairly masked. I do believe Marzetta7 said BD-J can do everything that HDi can and more. Yet another Blu-ray blowhard talking about stuff he doesn't understand.
I don't give a damn really, but how is Marzetta any more of a blowhard than you are? why should I believe you over the actual SALES FIGURES?
look at where the ship is sailing, look at all the people on it, but then I suppose from you point of view having missed the boat an all, I guess you have to content yourself with the water being great to paddle in
-
damn it, somtimes I think we're too hard on you, then sometimes I think you ask for it.
I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade and am not trying to stoke the B-d/HD-DVD controversy, but I do have a question. How important are extras to you? Do you even bother to watch them?
Occasionally I'll check and see if there's some bio information on the actors. Other than that, I can only remember watching two of the extra features-- The Making of March of the Penguins on the March of the Penguins SD-DVD and the making of the Diva feature on the Superbit version of The Fifth Element. Basically I want to watch the movie, who wants puff-pieces from the actors or director, it's the movie experience I want.
I used to be an avid "extras" watcher, and infact will still pick the "2 disc" version if its only marginally more expensive. However recently I just cant be bothered going to the extra effort of watching them, some of em are as dull as can be Actor profiles I can get online if I'm overly bothered. alot of the docus and 'how we did this or that' seem to be just a load of self gratification that I can live without, who wants to hear the B-list actors say how pleased they are to work with Tom cruise? or why the director chose this shot (over another that you dont even get to see) I mean if I cant work it out for myself I wasnt really paying attention in the first place was I?
Maybe its because at this stage I know how blue and green screen works, CGI, digital overlay film and post producition grading etc.
It's all a bit "meh", of course thats just me, and as I say I used to watch all this stuff avidly (no pun intended) so I have no problem with it being on there for people who are still fresh to it.
Last extra I remember watching was a docu on the "chitty Chitty Bang Bang" disc good fun.
Oh and blooper reels are (usually) always fun
Actually....... YES! for the time being.
It will take at least a year or more for J6P to become the marching soldiers for neither format. They're currently siding with SD-DVD as you know. Hence, the J6P contributions to the current HiDef formats is not an issue for the time being. Therefore, the popularity vote of the AV enthusiasts are much needed and the compatibility options for all formats will win the interest of the enthusiasts. So, for the time being, I'm looking forward to see Universal players or hybrid computer drives as the temporary solution to the format war for those enthusiasts. This is the only solution to keep HiDef movies formats(both Blu-Ray & HD-DVD) alive/or to expand within the enthusiast circle.
That is the whole point...for NOW. Obviously a Universal Player situation works for a short time and for some consumers. But it's not sustainable. That's the point I am making.
For the rest of market?....... you have wait or become an AV enthusiast yourself. Sony definitely tried this tactic by trying to turn every PS3 owners into AV enthusiast.... Of course, it wasn't very successfully, but was well worth a try. At least Blu-Ray is now saving PS3 , ironically......
Given that the PS3 has driven a lot of blu-ray sales, you're quite wrong about that. I don't know about the owners being "enthusiasts," but they are buying and renting BD titles. I use my PS3 as a bd player about 90% of the time. I didn't buy it for that reason, either.
Given that the PS3 has driven a lot of blu-ray sales, you're quite wrong about that. I don't know about the owners being "enthusiasts," but they are buying and renting BD titles. I use my PS3 as a bd player about 90% of the time. I didn't buy it for that reason, either.
Well, you're definitely a small percentage of the PS3 owners and you may be the ideal customer Sony would like to clone x(gazillions). Sony would probably want you to enjoy BD movies during the time of PS3 game drought and start buying games once available.
Soon, there will be a time where PS3 influence in the BD supporting will be very small once cheaper BD Standalone players roles out. It is actually already happening and you can now find Standalone BD players below PS3 prices. This would also trigger steep decrease in PS3 popularity because PS3 becomes less favorable as BD Players even at the price point/features. PS3 has already failed/or failed to succeed as a nextgen gaming console at the price point, so that's that....
Anyway, your points are well taken, but over 90% of PS3 owners bought it solely for gaming. All in all, it's a lot better using PS3 as a BD Player than just a door stop and every HiDef movie purchases count to support HiDef market as whole. So, keep up the good work, we need all the HiDef movie support right now to compete with SD-DVD's.
"Why I was wrong about HD DVD"
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-...ml?tag=nl.e702
Well great news, you gonna spring for one at that price?
I dont keep a great track of exactly who says exactly what on this thread, but within about the last 5 pages, I believe (and I don't mind being corrected) bitemymac says one of the Tosh players is $199 (of course thats likely US dollars) and then theres the special promo where it was being dumped off for $99. I couldnt really be bothered trawling for it, but its there
The $99 is true but you have to be at the special promotion to get it for that price. But there are places practically giving them away for $199 with movies. They are already obsolete. Many companies and businesses like blockbuster are taking them off the shelves. HD DVD is crashing and crashing hard. I give it to christmas and it'll be dead IMHO. Blu-ray is doing well with the 2nd gen players and lower costs, not to mention the PS3 that I hate and is doing wonders for Blu-ray sales.
Well, you're definitely a small percentage of the PS3 owners and you may be the ideal customer Sony would like to clone x(gazillions). Sony would probably want you to enjoy BD movies during the time of PS3 game drought and start buying games once available.
Soon, there will be a time where PS3 influence in the BD supporting will be very small once cheaper BD Standalone players roles out. It is actually already happening and you can now find Standalone BD players below PS3 prices. This would also trigger steep decrease in PS3 popularity because PS3 becomes less favorable as BD Players even at the price point/features. PS3 has already failed/or failed to succeed as a nextgen gaming console at the price point, so that's that....
Anyway, your points are well taken, but over 90% of PS3 owners bought it solely for gaming. All in all, it's a lot better using PS3 as a BD Player than just a door stop and every HiDef movie purchases count to support HiDef market as whole. So, keep up the good work, we need all the HiDef movie support right now to compete with SD-DVD's.
you'd be quite surprised how many people bought the PS3 solely for watching BD movies. check out www.blu-ray.com and see for yourself. i've been a member there for awhile and i can tell you first hand the PS3 is an excellent blu-ray player thru the firmware updates and also equiped with HDMI v1.3 for deep color and other capabilities that none of the current blu-ray players have. the majority of a/v enthusiasts buy them only for movies. the PS3 has the capability to be updated all the time to provide the latest and greatest. I believe the next update is scheduled to have the DTS-MA decoders. the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/ques...2207/index.php
WE: BD-61% HDD-39% YTD: BD-67% HDD-33% SI: BD-60% HDD-40%
^^^Really impressive when considering that this was the releases for this given week...
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/07/09...uly-10th-2007/
Blu-ray had no releases, and yet maintained a 61% marketshare lead. I hate (not really) to see what the percentages are going to be once Fox is back on board and Warner finally releases its blockbusters on Blu-ray.
Well, you're definitely a small percentage of the PS3 owners and you may be the ideal customer Sony would like to clone x(gazillions). Sony would probably want you to enjoy BD movies during the time of PS3 game drought and start buying games once available.
Soon, there will be a time where PS3 influence in the BD supporting will be very small once cheaper BD Standalone players roles out. It is actually already happening and you can now find Standalone BD players below PS3 prices. This would also trigger steep decrease in PS3 popularity because PS3 becomes less favorable as BD Players even at the price point/features. PS3 has already failed/or failed to succeed as a nextgen gaming console at the price point, so that's that....
Anyway, your points are well taken, but over 90% of PS3 owners bought it solely for gaming. All in all, it's a lot better using PS3 as a BD Player than just a door stop and every HiDef movie purchases count to support HiDef market as whole. So, keep up the good work, we need all the HiDef movie support right now to compete with SD-DVD's.
WOW I read that and its like I get BILE all over my eyes!
Did you buy a game cube, and then the tough kids came over with their PSOnes and beat you up?
Cos man! Sony or someone did something to you real bad, at least thats the way it sounds.
[end condescending 22 yearold mode]
the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
Have you actually played one?
the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
I'm typically the last one to rush to defense of Sony, and especially the PS3, but the first year of a console's lifespan is the worst time to judge its games library. Look at the Nintendo DS (awful first year, now the best-selling console on the planet) or even the Xbox 360, which had largely crummy software for its first year on the market.
It takes time for Major Works to be completed for any console.
you'd be quite surprised how many people bought the PS3 solely for watching BD movies. check out www.blu-ray.com and see for yourself. i've been a member there for awhile and i can tell you first hand the PS3 is an excellent blu-ray player thru the firmware updates and also equiped with HDMI v1.3 for deep color and other capabilities that none of the current blu-ray players have. the majority of a/v enthusiasts buy them only for movies. the PS3 has the capability to be updated all the time to provide the latest and greatest. I believe the next update is scheduled to have the DTS-MA decoders. the PS3 has fallen as a gaming machine. its blu-ray player is the only thing keeping it afloat.
This holds true for last 6 months when PS3 was the cheapest/most complied BD Player. During next 6 months, there are plans of better BD players with full BD profile compliance and HQV(SD & HD) playback. Also, most new players will incuding hardware audio decoding capabilities for the HD-audio. But most importantly, the prices are getting cheaper even below PS3.
Another AV-enthusiast favorable feature of these new BD players would inlcude universal format playback, including both BD & HD-DVD and the SD-DVD as well. LG already have such player and Samsung has plans for universal format player for the holidays and many will follow. Therefore, PS3 will no longer retain it's value as a BD player unless PS3 price drops to $199 in the next 6 months.
Either way, the prices of these newer BD players will be still too high for the holidays, but HD-DVD players are in a lot better price point to lure in even the upconverting SD-DVD player seekers. The price war winner will be the winner out of the HiDef format War.
The last thing I want is for studios to try to sell me ring tones and wallpapers through my movie discs. Wanna bet some studio ends up doing ads or something DURING the movie at some point? Shades of TiVO's interactive advertising...
Sucks for either BR or HD-DVD.
Vinea