Wait, you're saying that typing on a flat surface that's in the same plane as the display is more ergonomic than a screen that hinges at a variable angle to the keyboard? How do you figure?
Just from using a laptop, I remember almost every day wishing I was typing on a flat plane. It felt more natural to me. Possibly propped up at a desk.
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Originally Posted by addabox
You're conflating the benefits of a touch-screen interface with your argument for the adequacy of a virtual keyboard. Virtual or no, you still have to hit the right keys.
Yeah but every app can adjust the keyboard to use icons instead of letters so you don't have to remember keycodes. It's one reason why Skype is great vs a phone. You can just use a name instead of an 11-digit number.
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Originally Posted by addabox
the keyboard on the MacBook, for instance, isn't exactly bulking up the form factor. A modern membrane keyboard part weighs what, an ounce? And is what, .2" thick?
Yes but it's where to put it that's the problem. In order to accommodate it, you need a lot more casing and moving of parts around. It's not the keyboard itself that adds the bulk.
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Originally Posted by addabox
Because it ruins the purity if there is a tiny layer of keyboard between the display back and the base? Is that really enough reason to abandon functionality?
For Apple it will be. I think they are designers first and computer manufacturers second. Imagine how a Macbook screen would look with its bevelled corners against the flat surface of the keyboard. If they squared the corners out then it might be ok but I still don't see how they'll pull off the hinge design. If they had a screen that flipped 180 degrees, that would be pretty cool but then the keyboard lands on the bottom where you hold it.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
1st off, exactly what are you describing here? Ireland is describing a multi touch slate tablet and I'm countering with a notebook design where the screen flips over to become a tablet but it can still be used like a regular laptop. What it sounds like you're describing is... a notebook with a screen... and then a multi touch screen keyboard in place of the hardware keyboard?
Nope, same as Ireland, a touch keyboard on the screen.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
I NEVER look at the keys when I'm typing and I do my best to keep the area I'm typing in on level with my eyes, if the soft keyboard changes this in any way though then that immediately breaks the paradigm for me. The reason I don't look at the keys is that I'm far more efficient when I don't have to look at them at all and can focus entirely on what's on the screen.
But with touch typing it's a matter of training your hands to know the distance between keys. It's not like the keys have embossed lettering. So all you'd need to do is remember the distance the keys are apart on a touch screen keyboard.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
But if I wanted to locate the F9 key I would need to locate the edge of the keyboard with my finger and my vision extends somewhat down so I can see my hands
This is where a gesture interface comes in handy because you can set up a finger movement to activate expose.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
you're saying we should throw it away for a similar but only slightly advanced hunt and peck system?
I'd say it's more than slightly advanced. People are already trying to do it with keyboards everywhere. At work, we even bought one of those Final Cut keyboards with all the lettering over it and it's horrendous to use because you can't make out the normal keys. Adaptable keyboards like the OLED kind are way too expensive and we'd get the same functionality with a touch screen.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
1) We wouldn't have to throw away a century+ old system that has been proven to work
You don't have to throw it out. I know the idea of an external keyboard isn't appealing but it's still an option. I'm sure Apple will still make laptops. I get the impression you wouldn't use the touch features enough to justify Apple including one. Apple should only include one for people who are really going to use it, this makes it cheaper for both parties.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
you end up having to memorize too many different layouts.
That's the problem with keyboards not touch screens. You don't have to remember any layout because they'd use icons.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
When you're playing a game chances are you are paying attention to the screen and not big bright buttons and you really are better off with either a controller or the standard keyboard/mouse combo.
True to an extent but that's when you'd be able to use an external device. Just take a controller in your bag and you've still got less bulk than a normal laptop + controller.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
You have to make a tradeoff with higher material and manufacturing costs but it's not unheard of to make a keyboard for the market you're releasing the product in, and again, you get to keep the most efficient human machine interface on the planet (that works) built in.
But you assume that people who speak multiple languages won't be using the same machine. In schools and medical institutions, we have more and more people from all around the world forced to adapt to a localized keyboard. Maybe that's a good thing as it forces them to fit in though.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
You can't replicate the muscle memory and hand eye coordination you get with a keyboard.
I'd like to hear how the iphone users feel about how much more or less efficient they are at typing compared to a physical keyboard. I know it's slightly different but it's still a valid comparison. Is there anyone who would rather Apple included an actual keyboard?
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Originally Posted by Slewis
No. Because it doesn't have the most efficient human computer interface on the planet and wouldn't be very good at much of anything without it, it becomes a niche. In fact it is a niche. The only tablets that are selling are the ones that are built into standard notebooks.
The keyboard isn't the most efficient by a long way, accurate speech recognition is or actually thought processes would be. Keyboards are extremely inefficient because you can only do one command at a time. Multi-touch means multiple commands. Imagine you have a phrase and you only want the middle portion. With a keyboard and mouse, you have to select the end then delete and then select the start and delete. With touch, I can do the selection and deletion once. Productivity doubled.
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Originally Posted by Slewis
If having a tablet and swivel display doesn't compromise the reliability of the machine and actually improves my own personal efficiency by giving me more choices for input devices, then why the hell not?
Exactly, if there's nothing against it then great but I think there are many reasons against it and they've been pointed out.
How about if they included a roll-up membrane that sat on the touch-screen display but had the tactile feedback of a keyboard? The cool thing is they could make one that has a number pad. Maybe it would cover too much of the small screen but if they can fit a keyboard that works onto a pocket device, I don't see how they couldn't on a 10" or 11" tablet.
This is obviously a very personal view point at this stage, there is so little for us to go off and base our expectations on. However I'm a true believer in the future of multi-touch and I think we will see it everywhere within the next 5 years.
I also touch-type, so I understand the arguments for tactile feedback too, however I don't see the multi-touch market aimed at the word processor. Professional applications such as Photoshop, Final Cut, Aperture and Logic, even iLife level apps would greatly benefit from a multi-touch interface. Even 3D development environments and CAD would be able to make massive advancements with such a customisable interface. Just look at the number of people using Wacom tables and other application specific input devices.
As I said, it obviously boils down to personal preference for the apps you use, but just look at the votes.. 75% say yes to Multi-touch. Surly that's a good indication of the general Mac user base?
Just from using a laptop, I remember almost every day wishing I was typing on a flat plane. It felt more natural to me. Possibly propped up at a desk.
Yeah but every app can adjust the keyboard to use icons instead of letters so you don't have to remember keycodes. It's one reason why Skype is great vs a phone. You can just use a name instead of an 11-digit number.
Yes but it's where to put it that's the problem. In order to accommodate it, you need a lot more casing and moving of parts around. It's not the keyboard itself that adds the bulk.
For Apple it will be. I think they are designers first and computer manufacturers second. Imagine how a Macbook screen would look with its bevelled corners against the flat surface of the keyboard. If they squared the corners out then it might be ok but I still don't see how they'll pull off the hinge design. If they had a screen that flipped 180 degrees, that would be pretty cool but then the keyboard lands on the bottom where you hold it.
Nope, same as Ireland, a touch keyboard on the screen.
But with touch typing it's a matter of training your hands to know the distance between keys. It's not like the keys have embossed lettering. So all you'd need to do is remember the distance the keys are apart on a touch screen keyboard.
This is where a gesture interface comes in handy because you can set up a finger movement to activate expose.
I'd say it's more than slightly advanced. People are already trying to do it with keyboards everywhere. At work, we even bought one of those Final Cut keyboards with all the lettering over it and it's horrendous to use because you can't make out the normal keys. Adaptable keyboards like the OLED kind are way too expensive and we'd get the same functionality with a touch screen.
You don't have to throw it out. I know the idea of an external keyboard isn't appealing but it's still an option. I'm sure Apple will still make laptops. I get the impression you wouldn't use the touch features enough to justify Apple including one. Apple should only include one for people who are really going to use it, this makes it cheaper for both parties.
That's the problem with keyboards not touch screens. You don't have to remember any layout because they'd use icons.
True to an extent but that's when you'd be able to use an external device. Just take a controller in your bag and you've still got less bulk than a normal laptop + controller.
But you assume that people who speak multiple languages won't be using the same machine. In schools and medical institutions, we have more and more people from all around the world forced to adapt to a localized keyboard. Maybe that's a good thing as it forces them to fit in though.
I'd like to hear how the iphone users feel about how much more or less efficient they are at typing compared to a physical keyboard. I know it's slightly different but it's still a valid comparison. Is there anyone who would rather Apple included an actual keyboard?
The keyboard isn't the most efficient by a long way, accurate speech recognition is or actually thought processes would be. Keyboards are extremely inefficient because you can only do one command at a time. Multi-touch means multiple commands. Imagine you have a phrase and you only want the middle portion. With a keyboard and mouse, you have to select the end then delete and then select the start and delete. With touch, I can do the selection and deletion once. Productivity doubled.
Exactly, if there's nothing against it then great but I think there are many reasons against it and they've been pointed out.
How about if they included a roll-up membrane that sat on the touch-screen display but had the tactile feedback of a keyboard? The cool thing is they could make one that has a number pad. Maybe it would cover too much of the small screen but if they can fit a keyboard that works onto a pocket device, I don't see how they couldn't on a 10" or 11" tablet.
Thanks Marvin, very thoughtful responses and you make some good points.
Basically, the point of contention seems to boil down to whether or not it is possible for Apple to engineer a pivoting hinged screen that can fold face up over a keyboard, and do it elegantly with a minimum of extra weight and bulk.
Or rather, I guess, can they do that cleverly enough that it justifies the advantages of an always available physical keyboard while minimizing the disadvantages of extra moving parts and hardware.
Part of where you come down on that, of course, um....hinges (sorry) on how strongly you feel about the upside of a physical keyboard. If you find a virtual keyboard to be a satisfactory substituted then almost any additional bulk or complexity will be too much, whereas if you think a virtual keyboard is fine in a pinch but not much fun to type on for anything more than the odd text-box entry, then you'll be willing to tolerate some weight and bulk in order to have a more versatile machine.
My contention is that there are more buyers that would accept a modest increase in size and weight in order to have the functionality of a built in keyboard than there are buyers that would reject such a device because it isn't a "pure" tablet, because a hybrid gives you more options while only modestly compromising its tablet form factor.
I understand the aesthetic appeal of a seamless, near featureless pad thing, like an enlarged iPhone, but I also think that the idea that leaving out a keyboard somehow magically enables super-thinness and super lightness (ala a pad of paper) isn't technologically justified.
Like there's this vanishingly slight, wafer thin thing that Apple could make if only they would forgo that awful, contaminating keyboard-- I honestly don't think there is any reason to believe this.
At any rate, time will tell. Personally, I think it would be more like Apple to engineer a really great solution to the pivot hinge problem than to make a niche product like a pure tablet, but that's just me.
My contention is that there are more buyers that would accept a modest increase in size and weight in order to have the functionality of a built in keyboard than there are buyers that would reject such a device because it isn't a "pure" tablet, because a hybrid gives you more options while only modestly compromising its tablet form factor.
While this is true I notice that quite a few convertible users rarely use the tablet functionality. Anywhere you wouldn't bother to lug a laptop (like meetings) you aren't going to lug a convertible either.
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I understand the aesthetic appeal of a seamless, near featureless pad thing, like an enlarged iPhone, but I also think that the idea that leaving out a keyboard somehow magically enables super-thinness and super lightness (ala a pad of paper) isn't technologically justified.
Like there's this vanishingly slight, wafer thin thing that Apple could make if only they would forgo that awful, contaminating keyboard-- I honestly don't think there is any reason to believe this.
At any rate, time will tell. Personally, I think it would be more like Apple to engineer a really great solution to the pivot hinge problem than to make a niche product like a pure tablet, but that's just me.
Geez, does anyone in this thread besides me even HAVE a tablet?
Compare the Toshiba Protege and ThinkPad X61 convertibles (two of the best convertibles) to the Motion computing slate.
The Toshiba is 4.5 lbs, the Lenovo 3.8 lbs and the Motion is 3.3 lbs (LE1700WT...heaviest slate with both digitizer and touch screen) and 2.2 lbs (LS800 lightest slate they make).
The Toshiba is 11.6"x9.8"x1.53", the Lenovo 10.8"x9.6"x1.1" and the slates are 11.65" x 9.64" x0.74" and 8.94"x 6.69" x0.87".
A slate can come a lot closer to the ideal of pad of paper than any convertible. A half-pound to two pounds difference is significant as is doubling the thickness in the case of the Toshiba although if they can get it to 1.1" that's sufficient (the Lenovo is pretty nice really since it too has both touch and digitizer).
If Motion made their convertible keyboard with a better attaching mechanism and had a version with the extended battery (for additional weight mostly...the extended battery is .25" thick and 1 lb and adds 4 hours of time but the weight is required to move the hinge point back a bit from where they are on the keyboard now) their slates would be a lot nicer as a multi-use machine when they go Santa Rosa. I don't often carry the keyboard with me because the attachment point is so flakey and its a pretty crappy keyboard anyway. I use a real keyboard attached to their dock and use the slim cover to protect the display.
From the Apple perspective a detachable slate would be perfect as a hybrid iMac/Macbook Thin combo although the 10"-12.1" screen size would be a bit small for a desktop. But it would be great coupled with a 20"+ ACD. Stick it in portrait mode for email, IM and other stuff and use the ACD as the primary desktop. Dock to recharge and use the ACD, Keyboard and Mouse. Use undocked and get at your iMac Dock disks (HDD and optical) via 802.11N.
While communting or in class use the MT and digitizer w/pen to take notes and draw diagrams and live with a virtual keyboard. The only real problem is battery time in such a small and light form factor.
Vinea
I have the older 1400 Motion Computing Slate and the Panasonic Toughbook convertible. Co-workers have the 1600 MC slate and Toshiba Proteges. I've used the older ThinkPad X40 but not the X61.
While this is true I notice that quite a few convertible users rarely use the tablet functionality. Anywhere you wouldn't bother to lug a laptop (like meetings) you aren't going to lug a convertible either.
Geez, does anyone in this thread besides me even HAVE a tablet?
Compare the Toshiba Protege and ThinkPad X61 convertibles (two of the best convertibles) to the Motion computing slate.
The Toshiba is 4.5 lbs, the Lenovo 3.8 lbs and the Motion is 3.3 lbs (LE1700WT...heaviest slate with both digitizer and touch screen) and 2.2 lbs (LS800 lightest slate they make).
The Toshiba is 11.6"x9.8"x1.53", the Lenovo 10.8"x9.6"x1.1" and the slates are 11.65" x 9.64" x0.74" and 8.94"x 6.69" x0.87".
A slate can come a lot closer to the ideal of pad of paper than any convertible. A half-pound to two pounds difference is significant as is doubling the thickness in the case of the Toshiba although if they can get it to 1.1" that's sufficient (the Lenovo is pretty nice really since it too has both touch and digitizer).
If Motion made their convertible keyboard with a better attaching mechanism and had a version with the extended battery (for additional weight mostly...the extended battery is .25" thick and 1 lb and adds 4 hours of time but the weight is required to move the hinge point back a bit from where they are on the keyboard now) their slates would be a lot nicer as a multi-use machine when they go Santa Rosa. I don't often carry the keyboard with me because the attachment point is so flakey and its a pretty crappy keyboard anyway. I use a real keyboard attached to their dock and use the slim cover to protect the display.
From the Apple perspective a detachable slate would be perfect as a hybrid iMac/Macbook Thin combo although the 10"-12.1" screen size would be a bit small for a desktop. But it would be great coupled with a 20"+ ACD. Stick it in portrait mode for email, IM and other stuff and use the ACD as the primary desktop. Dock to recharge and use the ACD, Keyboard and Mouse. Use undocked and get at your iMac Dock disks (HDD and optical) via 802.11N.
While communting or in class use the MT and digitizer w/pen to take notes and draw diagrams and live with a virtual keyboard. The only real problem is battery time in such a small and light form factor.
Vinea
I have the older 1400 Motion Computing Slate and the Panasonic Toughbook convertible. Co-workers have the 1600 MC slate and Toshiba Proteges. I've used the older ThinkPad X40 but not the X61.
While it's of course possible to find various representatives of the two genres that vary widely in weight and size, I think it's best to compare identical screen sizes to get a sense of how close a convertible can come to a pure tablet.
Looking at CNET's review site, I see I can compare a Motion LE1600 to a Lenovo X41, both with a 12.1" screen.
For that, the Lenovo is nearly a full inch narrower than the Motion, while being .4" thicker. The Lenovo is .4lbs heavier.
So, again, it just comes down to what a real keyboard is worth to you, but what this tells me is that there isn't that much of a difference-- like I was saying, it's not like pure tablet gets you wafer thin and ounces heavy while convertible gets all bulky and massive.
.4" thicker and .4lbs heaver. To me, that's worth a keyboard, you, not. But consider-- Apple has some pretty heavy design mojo over there, so what if they could do a better job engineering the weight out of a convertible? How light and thin is "light and thin enough"?
Or is something that weighs one pound and is .5" thick still much more desirable than something that weighs, say, 1.3 pounds and is .75" thick?
I see this so-called multi-touch Mac tablet more as a companion to an iMac or Mac Pro, than the only computer you would own, as it's storage would be limited to say 32-50GB of flash. Furthermore I see the whole point of this as having no keyboard--that's the selling point--it's thinness and ULTRA-portability. It could have a dock--that would be cool--but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it didn't.
You'd basically have the ability to take 30 or 40 Gigs of data anywhere with you to work on a project, take notes, read eBooks, watch a movie, or do whatever. I'd also expect this device to be state of the art, and expensive. We're talking super-minimization here, and you always pay for that in technology. If you wanted a hardware keyboard, Apple would probably suggest you get a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
If you can trust that Apple has the skills to give you software that's good enough to display a keyboard on a 10" screen, and you want a Mac with you at all times, then they'd probably suggest you get this thing. Maybe addabox, Slewis and Onlooker gets the idea now, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that--you obviously just have a different view on the situation to me a others here. You have a right to your opinion, and rightly so, we just disagree on what this device should be.
If Apple makes this device, the one I'm talking about, it think it will be 2.2lbs or lighter. It will have a 10 or 11 Inch widescreen, and it will be about .5" thick. The screen itself will have a thin bezel round the whole way, and it will have a series of ports on one side, and a vent somewhere too, with possibly a flap covering up those ports. It may very well have no speakers. It wont have a hardware keyboard. And it will be sexy and relatively expensive.
While it's of course possible to find various representatives of the two genres that vary widely in weight and size, I think it's best to compare identical screen sizes to get a sense of how close a convertible can come to a pure tablet.
Looking at CNET's review site, I see I can compare a Motion LE1600 to a Lenovo X41, both with a 12.1" screen.
For that, the Lenovo is nearly a full inch narrower than the Motion, while being .4" thicker. The Lenovo is .4lbs heavier.
The X41 is discontinued and doesn't have both a digitizer and touch screen. In any case its not much smaller/lighter than the X61. Likewise the LE1600 is slightly smaller/lighter than the LE1700WT. The ratios are about the same.
Is there a reason you prefer to compare outdated machines that don't have the technology you would want in a tablet?
I would be cherry picking if I had not included the X61. But thanks for insinuating that I did.
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So, again, it just comes down to what a real keyboard is worth to you, but what this tells me is that there isn't that much of a difference-- like I was saying, it's not like pure tablet gets you wafer thin and ounces heavy while convertible gets all bulky and massive.
Because 2.2 lbs is the same as 3.6 lbs? The LS800 is significantly lighter and smaller.
A real keyboard isn't worth anything to me in some scenarios and worth a LOT in others. So the best option would be one where I could go into a laptop mode AND into the slate mode without the keyboard part if so desired.
Motion slates can do that now...just poorly. Convertibles saddle you with a notebook when sometimes you just want a slate.
Again, have you even used tablets? Not saying that I'm a guru but at least I live with the limitations of both convertible and slate on a regular basis though my primary machine is my MBP.
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.4" thicker and .4lbs heaver. To me, that's worth a keyboard, you, not. But consider-- Apple has some pretty heavy design mojo over there, so what if they could do a better job engineering the weight out of a convertible? How light and thin is "light and thin enough"?
Heavy design mojo that could design a slate that could dock into a notebook half (mobile dock) and iMac half (stationary dock). I would hope that the mobile dock option would be around the same size as the current MB and have a nice hinge/locking mechanism.
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Or is something that weighs one pound and is .5" thick still much more desirable than something that weighs, say, 1.3 pounds and is .75" thick?
Right. Show me a convertible that is 1.3 lbs and .75" thick. If you can its a winner. Since you can't, its not. You also need more than .25" for a keyboard that doesn't suck. The travel keyboard I have is 22mm (.86"). The convertible keyboard on the Motion is around half an inch looking at it. I'd guess the keyboard is around .5" on the MBP.
A thin slate with flash and low battery time is viable simply because of the form factor and if a decent notebook like dock is available with HDD, DVD, power and a keyboard.
A convertible with a 1 hour battery and only flash storage would suck. Its a self contained unit and decent battery life and decent storage are assumed to exist in a notebook like product.
An ultraportable with a compressed keyboard is...mmm...okay but likely not significantly better than typing on a virtual keyboard. I'd have to run tests to verify that (when I have a virtual keyboard to test) but my error rate and typing speed on something like the MoblePro 900 is pretty bad unless its the only thing I've been using a while. Don't have any of the better ultaportables with slightly larger keyboards to test.
A UMPC with a MobilePro like full QWERTY keyboard would be awesome but no one makes that either.
I see this so-called multi-touch Mac tablet more as a companion to an iMac or Mac Pro, than the only computer you would own, as it's storage would be limited to say 32-50GB of flash. Furthermore I see the whole point of this as having no keyboard--that's the selling point--it's thinness and ULTRA-portability. It could have a dock--that would be cool--but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it didn't.
You'd basically have the ability to take 30 or 40 Gigs of data anywhere with you to work on a project, take notes, read eBooks, watch a movie, or do whatever. I'd also expect this device to be state of the art, and expensive. We're talking super-minimization here, and you always pay for that in technology. If you wanted a hardware keyboard, Apple would probably suggest you get a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
If you can trust that Apple has the skills to give you software that's good enough to display a keyboard on a 10" screen, and you want a Mac with you at all times, then they'd probably suggest you get this thing. Maybe addabox, Slewis and Onlooker gets the idea now, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that--you obviously just have a different view on the situation to me a others here. You have a right to your opinion, and rightly so, we just disagree on what this device should be.
If Apple makes this device, the one I'm talking about, it think it will be 2.2lbs or lighter. It will have a 10 or 11 Inch widescreen, and it will be about .5" thick. The screen itself will have a thin bezel round the whole way, and it will have a series of ports on one side, and a vent somewhere too, with possibly a flap covering up those ports. It may very well have no speakers. It wont have a hardware keyboard. And it will be sexy and relatively expensive.
Obviously everybody has their preference of convertible or slate on this subject, and the last time we did a poll the convertible camp won hands down, but. Everybody likes what they like and personally I don't think the slate would sell next to a convertible with the same features, and a keyboard at all. That's why I think If Apple did it, I think they should test the water just to find out. Release both at the same time side by side In limited #'s so they don't get stuck with inventory. Make what they know they'll sell, and after that make what is needed, and let the other go the way of the cube.
The X41 is discontinued and doesn't have both a digitizer and touch screen. In any case its not much smaller/lighter than the X61. Likewise the LE1600 is slightly smaller/lighter than the LE1700WT. The ratios are about the same.
Is there a reason you prefer to compare outdated machines that don't have the technology you would want in a tablet?
I would be cherry picking if I had not included the X61. But thanks for insinuating that I did.
Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to imply you were cherry picking. I just looked up tablets on CNET and picked two with the same screen size.
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Because 2.2 lbs is the same as 3.6 lbs? The LS800 is significantly lighter and smaller.
Now you are cherry picking.
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A real keyboard isn't worth anything to me in some scenarios and worth a LOT in others. So the best option would be one where I could go into a laptop mode AND into the slate mode without the keyboard part if so desired.
Motion slates can do that now...just poorly. Convertibles saddle you with a notebook when sometimes you just want a slate.
And, unsurprisingly, I see the best option as having the keyboard option all the time, and not having to decide before I leave the house whether or not today's doings will bee slate-like or laptop like.
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Again, have you even used tablets? Not saying that I'm a guru but at least I live with the limitations of both convertible and slate on a regular basis though my primary machine is my MBP.
It's true, I haven't. But all I'm thinking about is the weight and size of a keyboard. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but it looks to me like there must be market segment reasons for the disparity in weight between tablets and convertibles. Keyboards don't weigh a pound.
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Heavy design mojo that could design a slate that could dock into a notebook half (mobile dock) and iMac half (stationary dock). I would hope that the mobile dock option would be around the same size as the current MB and have a nice hinge/locking mechanism.
That seems like a very elaborate, multi-piece solution to me, and so therefore un-Apple like.
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Right. Show me a convertible that is 1.3 lbs and .75" thick. If you can its a winner. Since you can't, its not. You also need more than .25" for a keyboard that doesn't suck. The travel keyboard I have is 22mm (.86"). The convertible keyboard on the Motion is around half an inch looking at it. I'd guess the keyboard is around .5" on the MBP.
Um, I think you are missing my point. I just threw those numbers out there pursuant to the question "how small and light is small and light enough", i.e., is there some point at which a few ounces and fractions of an inch aren't a big problem because the tablet being added to is already so small and light.
Personally, I would accept a keyboard with somewhat restricted travel as a good compromise between tablet/virtual/thin as possible and convertible/keyboard/.4" thicker.
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A thin slate with flash and low battery time is viable simply because of the form factor and if a decent notebook like dock is available with HDD, DVD, power and a keyboard.
A convertible with a 1 hour battery and only flash storage would suck. Its a self contained unit and decent battery life and decent storage are assumed to exist in a notebook like product.
So..... if we restrict the functionality of a slate it's OK because nobody expects it to do much, but if we do the same and put a keyboard on it it's a "notebook" and we can't get away with that? I dunno, this seems like kinda a reach.
And I don't see why a dock that works for a tablet doesn't work for a convertible. Geez, it's not like a keyboard is some kind of a mark of Satan or something, destroying all innovation or possibility.
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An ultraportable with a compressed keyboard is...mmm...okay but likely not significantly better than typing on a virtual keyboard. I'd have to run tests to verify that (when I have a virtual keyboard to test) but my error rate and typing speed on something like the MoblePro 900 is pretty bad unless its the only thing I've been using a while. Don't have any of the better ultaportables with slightly larger keyboards to test.
It's not just key travel, although I disagree that "less" isn't functionally better than "none".
It's also the screen real estate the virtual keyboard takes up, and the convenience of a built in way to put the screen up at a viewing angle.
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A UMPC with a MobilePro like full QWERTY keyboard would be awesome but no one makes that either.
At that size you're looking at a really small keyboard. On the scale of the one in my MobilePro which is one of the smallest full QWERTY keyboards (ie not chicklet) built into a device. Probably about the same size as those mini-keyboards that you can attack to PDAs and folds up really small.
Key spacing is different and you'll have a lot more typos if you're used to a full sized keyboard. Which is why I commented that a virtual keyboard with no tactile feedback is likely about the same.
Nothing beats a full sized keyboard when you need to type.
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And, unsurprisingly, I see the best option as having the keyboard option all the time, and not having to decide before I leave the house whether or not today's doings will bee slate-like or laptop like.
It sits in your laptop bag if you're mobile or on your desk if in your office. Making the wrong decision isn't catestrophic but the convenience is nice to be able to only need to manipulate the smallest portion that you need.
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It's true, I haven't. But all I'm thinking about is the weight and size of a keyboard. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but it looks to me like there must be market segment reasons for the disparity in weight between tablets and convertibles. Keyboards don't weigh a pound.
Keyboards don't. Going from 1 hour to 4 hour battery life does. The X61 and Protege's are laptops first, tablets second and are designed accordingly.
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That seems like a very elaborate, multi-piece solution to me, and so therefore un-Apple like.
Two pieces. Yes, more elaborate than Apple typically does but a docked iMac MT tablet has a certain elegance. The limiter is screen size which might break the design.
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Um, I think you are missing my point. I just threw those numbers out there pursuant to the question "how small and light is small and light enough", i.e., is there some point at which a few ounces and fractions of an inch aren't a big problem because the tablet being added to is already so small and light.
I got the point. My counterpoint is that a slate is more likely to reach the desired "small and light enough" criteria. They don't now and they are lighter and thinner/smaller than convertibles.
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So..... if we restrict the functionality of a slate it's OK because nobody expects it to do much, but if we do the same and put a keyboard on it it's a "notebook" and we can't get away with that? I dunno, this seems like kinda a reach.
Mkay. Find me a convertible with a 1-1.5 hour battery life. Yes, you can eliminate everything but the keyboard on a convertible but its not going to be a great laptop replacement unless you were also willing to live with all the limitations of an ultraportable.
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And I don't see why a dock that works for a tablet doesn't work for a convertible. Geez, it's not like a keyboard is some kind of a mark of Satan or something, destroying all innovation or possibility.
You can certainly have a little dock that attaches to the convertible. I had a Compaq laptop with a little extender with a DVD drive and some ports on it that reduced the size and weight of the laptop. But heck, if you're going to do that and have a 4 hour battery pack as well why not integrate the keyboard with the dock part?
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I think that's another animal altogether.
The MobilePro was small computer with a touch screen and a keyboard. If made today it would be a little bit thinner with a slightly larger, higher resolution screen, a real CPU running Vista rather than Windows CE. With the right hinge it could be a convertible.
A UMPC built along those lines fills many of the same niches as a slate or convertible. If I could use OneNote on this little guy in a tablet mode (ie screen flipped around) it would fullfill most of my notetaking needs. With the keyboard I can write documents...something the current UMPCs are impossible to do on with their chicklet two finger keyboards.
Same ecological niche. Which animal fills it is somewhat less important to me than getting the niche filled. If Apple made an ultraportable convertible I would be happy too.
I've got to jump in and give my 2 cents. Hopefully it'll be insightful. I've a tablet pc at work that runs our practice management software(health care). It's a toshiba but I can't recall the model number and I'm at home.
Gripes
1) Too slow. I'm pretty sure it's running on a pentium m processor. The lag time just bugs me especially after I've been working on my core 2 MBP. If Apple were to make one I hope they use a low power penryn chip that is reasonably robust.
2) The apps don't take advantage of the tablet. It's a specific gripe related to my particular app, but after using an iPhone I'm amazed that all the tablet really does is rotate from portrait to landscape view and has a hand held pen that works ok. I hope if Apple decide to make a tablet they give it additional functionality that isn't available on a conventional laptop.
Ideas I have:
1) LED screen. Lower power draw, better battery life. OLED would be even better as it's thinner, lighter but I don't know if this is possible.
2) Handwriting Recognition software a la Inkwell or VR software
3) Low Voltage Penryn chips so that things work crisply.
I don't think apple will release a tablet, I think these design's were hiding patented iPhone features.
A 10 inch tablet screen is way too small for a tablet. Try 15'' that'd be good! but 10'' screen? Think about a 10'' screen on a regular computer.. too small.
I would instantly buy Apple's tablet when it comes out. I love the features tablets have but I want to be able to do it on a mac. I do art and animation and a tablet mac would be perfect.
Axiotron has released an un official mac tablet www.axiotron.com . The reason I'm not buying it is because there is a slight lag from the time you touch the screen until it actually show's up. It's slight when you don't work in the art field but when drawing or animating, lines showing up even mere seconds than after you draw them is extremely frustrating. The device is actually a macbook with a touch screen display.
I don't think apple will release a tablet, I think these design's were hiding patented iPhone features.
A 10 inch tablet screen is way too small for a tablet. Try 15'' that'd be good! but 10'' screen? Think about a 10'' screen on a regular computer.. too small.
We did say it was Apple's ultra-portable. 15" isn't ultra-portable, sorry. Anyway, it doesn't have to 10", it could be 11.
The Pole, nor the post title says ultra-portable and I only read a few posts.
Quote from my title post:
"I suspect tablets, when they are done properly (i.e. when Apple does one) will begin to replace notebooks. I think Apple's ultra-portable--the one they are most definitely working on--may not even be a notebook."
"I suspect tablets, when they are done properly (i.e. when Apple does one) will begin to replace notebooks. I think Apple's ultra-portable--the one they are most definitely working on--may not even be a notebook."
You should give the optician a call.
I read the forum post title, the pole, and commented.
I knew a few people who had machines like that and it made my 12" ibook look a bit clumsy, especially when they were sleek aluminium and mine was cheap white plastic.
I think as long as the make the device thin enough and light enough that a larger display would be fine. No more than 13" though.
Comments
Wait, you're saying that typing on a flat surface that's in the same plane as the display is more ergonomic than a screen that hinges at a variable angle to the keyboard? How do you figure?
Just from using a laptop, I remember almost every day wishing I was typing on a flat plane. It felt more natural to me. Possibly propped up at a desk.
You're conflating the benefits of a touch-screen interface with your argument for the adequacy of a virtual keyboard. Virtual or no, you still have to hit the right keys.
Yeah but every app can adjust the keyboard to use icons instead of letters so you don't have to remember keycodes. It's one reason why Skype is great vs a phone. You can just use a name instead of an 11-digit number.
the keyboard on the MacBook, for instance, isn't exactly bulking up the form factor. A modern membrane keyboard part weighs what, an ounce? And is what, .2" thick?
Yes but it's where to put it that's the problem. In order to accommodate it, you need a lot more casing and moving of parts around. It's not the keyboard itself that adds the bulk.
Because it ruins the purity if there is a tiny layer of keyboard between the display back and the base? Is that really enough reason to abandon functionality?
For Apple it will be. I think they are designers first and computer manufacturers second. Imagine how a Macbook screen would look with its bevelled corners against the flat surface of the keyboard. If they squared the corners out then it might be ok but I still don't see how they'll pull off the hinge design. If they had a screen that flipped 180 degrees, that would be pretty cool but then the keyboard lands on the bottom where you hold it.
1st off, exactly what are you describing here? Ireland is describing a multi touch slate tablet and I'm countering with a notebook design where the screen flips over to become a tablet but it can still be used like a regular laptop. What it sounds like you're describing is... a notebook with a screen... and then a multi touch screen keyboard in place of the hardware keyboard?
Nope, same as Ireland, a touch keyboard on the screen.
I NEVER look at the keys when I'm typing and I do my best to keep the area I'm typing in on level with my eyes, if the soft keyboard changes this in any way though then that immediately breaks the paradigm for me. The reason I don't look at the keys is that I'm far more efficient when I don't have to look at them at all and can focus entirely on what's on the screen.
But with touch typing it's a matter of training your hands to know the distance between keys. It's not like the keys have embossed lettering. So all you'd need to do is remember the distance the keys are apart on a touch screen keyboard.
But if I wanted to locate the F9 key I would need to locate the edge of the keyboard with my finger and my vision extends somewhat down so I can see my hands
This is where a gesture interface comes in handy because you can set up a finger movement to activate expose.
you're saying we should throw it away for a similar but only slightly advanced hunt and peck system?
I'd say it's more than slightly advanced. People are already trying to do it with keyboards everywhere. At work, we even bought one of those Final Cut keyboards with all the lettering over it and it's horrendous to use because you can't make out the normal keys. Adaptable keyboards like the OLED kind are way too expensive and we'd get the same functionality with a touch screen.
1) We wouldn't have to throw away a century+ old system that has been proven to work
You don't have to throw it out. I know the idea of an external keyboard isn't appealing but it's still an option. I'm sure Apple will still make laptops. I get the impression you wouldn't use the touch features enough to justify Apple including one. Apple should only include one for people who are really going to use it, this makes it cheaper for both parties.
you end up having to memorize too many different layouts.
When you're playing a game chances are you are paying attention to the screen and not big bright buttons and you really are better off with either a controller or the standard keyboard/mouse combo.
True to an extent but that's when you'd be able to use an external device. Just take a controller in your bag and you've still got less bulk than a normal laptop + controller.
You have to make a tradeoff with higher material and manufacturing costs but it's not unheard of to make a keyboard for the market you're releasing the product in, and again, you get to keep the most efficient human machine interface on the planet (that works) built in.
But you assume that people who speak multiple languages won't be using the same machine. In schools and medical institutions, we have more and more people from all around the world forced to adapt to a localized keyboard. Maybe that's a good thing as it forces them to fit in though.
You can't replicate the muscle memory and hand eye coordination you get with a keyboard.
I'd like to hear how the iphone users feel about how much more or less efficient they are at typing compared to a physical keyboard. I know it's slightly different but it's still a valid comparison. Is there anyone who would rather Apple included an actual keyboard?
No. Because it doesn't have the most efficient human computer interface on the planet and wouldn't be very good at much of anything without it, it becomes a niche. In fact it is a niche. The only tablets that are selling are the ones that are built into standard notebooks.
The keyboard isn't the most efficient by a long way, accurate speech recognition is or actually thought processes would be. Keyboards are extremely inefficient because you can only do one command at a time. Multi-touch means multiple commands. Imagine you have a phrase and you only want the middle portion. With a keyboard and mouse, you have to select the end then delete and then select the start and delete. With touch, I can do the selection and deletion once. Productivity doubled.
If having a tablet and swivel display doesn't compromise the reliability of the machine and actually improves my own personal efficiency by giving me more choices for input devices, then why the hell not?
Exactly, if there's nothing against it then great but I think there are many reasons against it and they've been pointed out.
How about if they included a roll-up membrane that sat on the touch-screen display but had the tactile feedback of a keyboard? The cool thing is they could make one that has a number pad. Maybe it would cover too much of the small screen but if they can fit a keyboard that works onto a pocket device, I don't see how they couldn't on a 10" or 11" tablet.
I also touch-type, so I understand the arguments for tactile feedback too, however I don't see the multi-touch market aimed at the word processor. Professional applications such as Photoshop, Final Cut, Aperture and Logic, even iLife level apps would greatly benefit from a multi-touch interface. Even 3D development environments and CAD would be able to make massive advancements with such a customisable interface. Just look at the number of people using Wacom tables and other application specific input devices.
As I said, it obviously boils down to personal preference for the apps you use, but just look at the votes.. 75% say yes to Multi-touch. Surly that's a good indication of the general Mac user base?
Just from using a laptop, I remember almost every day wishing I was typing on a flat plane. It felt more natural to me. Possibly propped up at a desk.
Yeah but every app can adjust the keyboard to use icons instead of letters so you don't have to remember keycodes. It's one reason why Skype is great vs a phone. You can just use a name instead of an 11-digit number.
Yes but it's where to put it that's the problem. In order to accommodate it, you need a lot more casing and moving of parts around. It's not the keyboard itself that adds the bulk.
For Apple it will be. I think they are designers first and computer manufacturers second. Imagine how a Macbook screen would look with its bevelled corners against the flat surface of the keyboard. If they squared the corners out then it might be ok but I still don't see how they'll pull off the hinge design. If they had a screen that flipped 180 degrees, that would be pretty cool but then the keyboard lands on the bottom where you hold it.
Nope, same as Ireland, a touch keyboard on the screen.
But with touch typing it's a matter of training your hands to know the distance between keys. It's not like the keys have embossed lettering. So all you'd need to do is remember the distance the keys are apart on a touch screen keyboard.
This is where a gesture interface comes in handy because you can set up a finger movement to activate expose.
I'd say it's more than slightly advanced. People are already trying to do it with keyboards everywhere. At work, we even bought one of those Final Cut keyboards with all the lettering over it and it's horrendous to use because you can't make out the normal keys. Adaptable keyboards like the OLED kind are way too expensive and we'd get the same functionality with a touch screen.
You don't have to throw it out. I know the idea of an external keyboard isn't appealing but it's still an option. I'm sure Apple will still make laptops. I get the impression you wouldn't use the touch features enough to justify Apple including one. Apple should only include one for people who are really going to use it, this makes it cheaper for both parties.
True to an extent but that's when you'd be able to use an external device. Just take a controller in your bag and you've still got less bulk than a normal laptop + controller.
But you assume that people who speak multiple languages won't be using the same machine. In schools and medical institutions, we have more and more people from all around the world forced to adapt to a localized keyboard. Maybe that's a good thing as it forces them to fit in though.
I'd like to hear how the iphone users feel about how much more or less efficient they are at typing compared to a physical keyboard. I know it's slightly different but it's still a valid comparison. Is there anyone who would rather Apple included an actual keyboard?
The keyboard isn't the most efficient by a long way, accurate speech recognition is or actually thought processes would be. Keyboards are extremely inefficient because you can only do one command at a time. Multi-touch means multiple commands. Imagine you have a phrase and you only want the middle portion. With a keyboard and mouse, you have to select the end then delete and then select the start and delete. With touch, I can do the selection and deletion once. Productivity doubled.
Exactly, if there's nothing against it then great but I think there are many reasons against it and they've been pointed out.
How about if they included a roll-up membrane that sat on the touch-screen display but had the tactile feedback of a keyboard? The cool thing is they could make one that has a number pad. Maybe it would cover too much of the small screen but if they can fit a keyboard that works onto a pocket device, I don't see how they couldn't on a 10" or 11" tablet.
Thanks Marvin, very thoughtful responses and you make some good points.
Basically, the point of contention seems to boil down to whether or not it is possible for Apple to engineer a pivoting hinged screen that can fold face up over a keyboard, and do it elegantly with a minimum of extra weight and bulk.
Or rather, I guess, can they do that cleverly enough that it justifies the advantages of an always available physical keyboard while minimizing the disadvantages of extra moving parts and hardware.
Part of where you come down on that, of course, um....hinges (sorry) on how strongly you feel about the upside of a physical keyboard. If you find a virtual keyboard to be a satisfactory substituted then almost any additional bulk or complexity will be too much, whereas if you think a virtual keyboard is fine in a pinch but not much fun to type on for anything more than the odd text-box entry, then you'll be willing to tolerate some weight and bulk in order to have a more versatile machine.
My contention is that there are more buyers that would accept a modest increase in size and weight in order to have the functionality of a built in keyboard than there are buyers that would reject such a device because it isn't a "pure" tablet, because a hybrid gives you more options while only modestly compromising its tablet form factor.
I understand the aesthetic appeal of a seamless, near featureless pad thing, like an enlarged iPhone, but I also think that the idea that leaving out a keyboard somehow magically enables super-thinness and super lightness (ala a pad of paper) isn't technologically justified.
Like there's this vanishingly slight, wafer thin thing that Apple could make if only they would forgo that awful, contaminating keyboard-- I honestly don't think there is any reason to believe this.
At any rate, time will tell. Personally, I think it would be more like Apple to engineer a really great solution to the pivot hinge problem than to make a niche product like a pure tablet, but that's just me.
My contention is that there are more buyers that would accept a modest increase in size and weight in order to have the functionality of a built in keyboard than there are buyers that would reject such a device because it isn't a "pure" tablet, because a hybrid gives you more options while only modestly compromising its tablet form factor.
While this is true I notice that quite a few convertible users rarely use the tablet functionality. Anywhere you wouldn't bother to lug a laptop (like meetings) you aren't going to lug a convertible either.
I understand the aesthetic appeal of a seamless, near featureless pad thing, like an enlarged iPhone, but I also think that the idea that leaving out a keyboard somehow magically enables super-thinness and super lightness (ala a pad of paper) isn't technologically justified.
Like there's this vanishingly slight, wafer thin thing that Apple could make if only they would forgo that awful, contaminating keyboard-- I honestly don't think there is any reason to believe this.
At any rate, time will tell. Personally, I think it would be more like Apple to engineer a really great solution to the pivot hinge problem than to make a niche product like a pure tablet, but that's just me.
Geez, does anyone in this thread besides me even HAVE a tablet?
Compare the Toshiba Protege and ThinkPad X61 convertibles (two of the best convertibles) to the Motion computing slate.
The Toshiba is 4.5 lbs, the Lenovo 3.8 lbs and the Motion is 3.3 lbs (LE1700WT...heaviest slate with both digitizer and touch screen) and 2.2 lbs (LS800 lightest slate they make).
The Toshiba is 11.6"x9.8"x1.53", the Lenovo 10.8"x9.6"x1.1" and the slates are 11.65" x 9.64" x0.74" and 8.94"x 6.69" x0.87".
A slate can come a lot closer to the ideal of pad of paper than any convertible. A half-pound to two pounds difference is significant as is doubling the thickness in the case of the Toshiba although if they can get it to 1.1" that's sufficient (the Lenovo is pretty nice really since it too has both touch and digitizer).
If Motion made their convertible keyboard with a better attaching mechanism and had a version with the extended battery (for additional weight mostly...the extended battery is .25" thick and 1 lb and adds 4 hours of time but the weight is required to move the hinge point back a bit from where they are on the keyboard now) their slates would be a lot nicer as a multi-use machine when they go Santa Rosa. I don't often carry the keyboard with me because the attachment point is so flakey and its a pretty crappy keyboard anyway. I use a real keyboard attached to their dock and use the slim cover to protect the display.
From the Apple perspective a detachable slate would be perfect as a hybrid iMac/Macbook Thin combo although the 10"-12.1" screen size would be a bit small for a desktop. But it would be great coupled with a 20"+ ACD. Stick it in portrait mode for email, IM and other stuff and use the ACD as the primary desktop. Dock to recharge and use the ACD, Keyboard and Mouse. Use undocked and get at your iMac Dock disks (HDD and optical) via 802.11N.
While communting or in class use the MT and digitizer w/pen to take notes and draw diagrams and live with a virtual keyboard. The only real problem is battery time in such a small and light form factor.
Vinea
I have the older 1400 Motion Computing Slate and the Panasonic Toughbook convertible. Co-workers have the 1600 MC slate and Toshiba Proteges. I've used the older ThinkPad X40 but not the X61.
While this is true I notice that quite a few convertible users rarely use the tablet functionality. Anywhere you wouldn't bother to lug a laptop (like meetings) you aren't going to lug a convertible either.
Geez, does anyone in this thread besides me even HAVE a tablet?
Compare the Toshiba Protege and ThinkPad X61 convertibles (two of the best convertibles) to the Motion computing slate.
The Toshiba is 4.5 lbs, the Lenovo 3.8 lbs and the Motion is 3.3 lbs (LE1700WT...heaviest slate with both digitizer and touch screen) and 2.2 lbs (LS800 lightest slate they make).
The Toshiba is 11.6"x9.8"x1.53", the Lenovo 10.8"x9.6"x1.1" and the slates are 11.65" x 9.64" x0.74" and 8.94"x 6.69" x0.87".
A slate can come a lot closer to the ideal of pad of paper than any convertible. A half-pound to two pounds difference is significant as is doubling the thickness in the case of the Toshiba although if they can get it to 1.1" that's sufficient (the Lenovo is pretty nice really since it too has both touch and digitizer).
If Motion made their convertible keyboard with a better attaching mechanism and had a version with the extended battery (for additional weight mostly...the extended battery is .25" thick and 1 lb and adds 4 hours of time but the weight is required to move the hinge point back a bit from where they are on the keyboard now) their slates would be a lot nicer as a multi-use machine when they go Santa Rosa. I don't often carry the keyboard with me because the attachment point is so flakey and its a pretty crappy keyboard anyway. I use a real keyboard attached to their dock and use the slim cover to protect the display.
From the Apple perspective a detachable slate would be perfect as a hybrid iMac/Macbook Thin combo although the 10"-12.1" screen size would be a bit small for a desktop. But it would be great coupled with a 20"+ ACD. Stick it in portrait mode for email, IM and other stuff and use the ACD as the primary desktop. Dock to recharge and use the ACD, Keyboard and Mouse. Use undocked and get at your iMac Dock disks (HDD and optical) via 802.11N.
While communting or in class use the MT and digitizer w/pen to take notes and draw diagrams and live with a virtual keyboard. The only real problem is battery time in such a small and light form factor.
Vinea
I have the older 1400 Motion Computing Slate and the Panasonic Toughbook convertible. Co-workers have the 1600 MC slate and Toshiba Proteges. I've used the older ThinkPad X40 but not the X61.
While it's of course possible to find various representatives of the two genres that vary widely in weight and size, I think it's best to compare identical screen sizes to get a sense of how close a convertible can come to a pure tablet.
Looking at CNET's review site, I see I can compare a Motion LE1600 to a Lenovo X41, both with a 12.1" screen.
For that, the Lenovo is nearly a full inch narrower than the Motion, while being .4" thicker. The Lenovo is .4lbs heavier.
So, again, it just comes down to what a real keyboard is worth to you, but what this tells me is that there isn't that much of a difference-- like I was saying, it's not like pure tablet gets you wafer thin and ounces heavy while convertible gets all bulky and massive.
.4" thicker and .4lbs heaver. To me, that's worth a keyboard, you, not. But consider-- Apple has some pretty heavy design mojo over there, so what if they could do a better job engineering the weight out of a convertible? How light and thin is "light and thin enough"?
Or is something that weighs one pound and is .5" thick still much more desirable than something that weighs, say, 1.3 pounds and is .75" thick?
You'd basically have the ability to take 30 or 40 Gigs of data anywhere with you to work on a project, take notes, read eBooks, watch a movie, or do whatever. I'd also expect this device to be state of the art, and expensive. We're talking super-minimization here, and you always pay for that in technology. If you wanted a hardware keyboard, Apple would probably suggest you get a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
If you can trust that Apple has the skills to give you software that's good enough to display a keyboard on a 10" screen, and you want a Mac with you at all times, then they'd probably suggest you get this thing. Maybe addabox, Slewis and Onlooker gets the idea now, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that--you obviously just have a different view on the situation to me a others here. You have a right to your opinion, and rightly so, we just disagree on what this device should be.
If Apple makes this device, the one I'm talking about, it think it will be 2.2lbs or lighter. It will have a 10 or 11 Inch widescreen, and it will be about .5" thick. The screen itself will have a thin bezel round the whole way, and it will have a series of ports on one side, and a vent somewhere too, with possibly a flap covering up those ports. It may very well have no speakers. It wont have a hardware keyboard. And it will be sexy and relatively expensive.
While it's of course possible to find various representatives of the two genres that vary widely in weight and size, I think it's best to compare identical screen sizes to get a sense of how close a convertible can come to a pure tablet.
Looking at CNET's review site, I see I can compare a Motion LE1600 to a Lenovo X41, both with a 12.1" screen.
For that, the Lenovo is nearly a full inch narrower than the Motion, while being .4" thicker. The Lenovo is .4lbs heavier.
The X41 is discontinued and doesn't have both a digitizer and touch screen. In any case its not much smaller/lighter than the X61. Likewise the LE1600 is slightly smaller/lighter than the LE1700WT. The ratios are about the same.
Is there a reason you prefer to compare outdated machines that don't have the technology you would want in a tablet?
I would be cherry picking if I had not included the X61. But thanks for insinuating that I did.
So, again, it just comes down to what a real keyboard is worth to you, but what this tells me is that there isn't that much of a difference-- like I was saying, it's not like pure tablet gets you wafer thin and ounces heavy while convertible gets all bulky and massive.
Because 2.2 lbs is the same as 3.6 lbs? The LS800 is significantly lighter and smaller.
A real keyboard isn't worth anything to me in some scenarios and worth a LOT in others. So the best option would be one where I could go into a laptop mode AND into the slate mode without the keyboard part if so desired.
Motion slates can do that now...just poorly. Convertibles saddle you with a notebook when sometimes you just want a slate.
Again, have you even used tablets? Not saying that I'm a guru but at least I live with the limitations of both convertible and slate on a regular basis though my primary machine is my MBP.
.4" thicker and .4lbs heaver. To me, that's worth a keyboard, you, not. But consider-- Apple has some pretty heavy design mojo over there, so what if they could do a better job engineering the weight out of a convertible? How light and thin is "light and thin enough"?
Heavy design mojo that could design a slate that could dock into a notebook half (mobile dock) and iMac half (stationary dock). I would hope that the mobile dock option would be around the same size as the current MB and have a nice hinge/locking mechanism.
Or is something that weighs one pound and is .5" thick still much more desirable than something that weighs, say, 1.3 pounds and is .75" thick?
Right. Show me a convertible that is 1.3 lbs and .75" thick. If you can its a winner. Since you can't, its not. You also need more than .25" for a keyboard that doesn't suck. The travel keyboard I have is 22mm (.86"). The convertible keyboard on the Motion is around half an inch looking at it. I'd guess the keyboard is around .5" on the MBP.
A thin slate with flash and low battery time is viable simply because of the form factor and if a decent notebook like dock is available with HDD, DVD, power and a keyboard.
A convertible with a 1 hour battery and only flash storage would suck. Its a self contained unit and decent battery life and decent storage are assumed to exist in a notebook like product.
An ultraportable with a compressed keyboard is...mmm...okay but likely not significantly better than typing on a virtual keyboard. I'd have to run tests to verify that (when I have a virtual keyboard to test) but my error rate and typing speed on something like the MoblePro 900 is pretty bad unless its the only thing I've been using a while. Don't have any of the better ultaportables with slightly larger keyboards to test.
A UMPC with a MobilePro like full QWERTY keyboard would be awesome but no one makes that either.
Vinea
I see this so-called multi-touch Mac tablet more as a companion to an iMac or Mac Pro, than the only computer you would own, as it's storage would be limited to say 32-50GB of flash. Furthermore I see the whole point of this as having no keyboard--that's the selling point--it's thinness and ULTRA-portability. It could have a dock--that would be cool--but it wouldn't be the end of the world if it didn't.
You'd basically have the ability to take 30 or 40 Gigs of data anywhere with you to work on a project, take notes, read eBooks, watch a movie, or do whatever. I'd also expect this device to be state of the art, and expensive. We're talking super-minimization here, and you always pay for that in technology. If you wanted a hardware keyboard, Apple would probably suggest you get a MacBook or MacBook Pro.
If you can trust that Apple has the skills to give you software that's good enough to display a keyboard on a 10" screen, and you want a Mac with you at all times, then they'd probably suggest you get this thing. Maybe addabox, Slewis and Onlooker gets the idea now, and I'm not being sarcastic when I say that--you obviously just have a different view on the situation to me a others here. You have a right to your opinion, and rightly so, we just disagree on what this device should be.
If Apple makes this device, the one I'm talking about, it think it will be 2.2lbs or lighter. It will have a 10 or 11 Inch widescreen, and it will be about .5" thick. The screen itself will have a thin bezel round the whole way, and it will have a series of ports on one side, and a vent somewhere too, with possibly a flap covering up those ports. It may very well have no speakers. It wont have a hardware keyboard. And it will be sexy and relatively expensive.
Obviously everybody has their preference of convertible or slate on this subject, and the last time we did a poll the convertible camp won hands down, but. Everybody likes what they like and personally I don't think the slate would sell next to a convertible with the same features, and a keyboard at all. That's why I think If Apple did it, I think they should test the water just to find out. Release both at the same time side by side In limited #'s so they don't get stuck with inventory. Make what they know they'll sell, and after that make what is needed, and let the other go the way of the cube.
The X41 is discontinued and doesn't have both a digitizer and touch screen. In any case its not much smaller/lighter than the X61. Likewise the LE1600 is slightly smaller/lighter than the LE1700WT. The ratios are about the same.
Is there a reason you prefer to compare outdated machines that don't have the technology you would want in a tablet?
I would be cherry picking if I had not included the X61. But thanks for insinuating that I did.
Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to imply you were cherry picking. I just looked up tablets on CNET and picked two with the same screen size.
Because 2.2 lbs is the same as 3.6 lbs? The LS800 is significantly lighter and smaller.
Now you are cherry picking.
A real keyboard isn't worth anything to me in some scenarios and worth a LOT in others. So the best option would be one where I could go into a laptop mode AND into the slate mode without the keyboard part if so desired.
Motion slates can do that now...just poorly. Convertibles saddle you with a notebook when sometimes you just want a slate.
And, unsurprisingly, I see the best option as having the keyboard option all the time, and not having to decide before I leave the house whether or not today's doings will bee slate-like or laptop like.
Again, have you even used tablets? Not saying that I'm a guru but at least I live with the limitations of both convertible and slate on a regular basis though my primary machine is my MBP.
It's true, I haven't. But all I'm thinking about is the weight and size of a keyboard. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but it looks to me like there must be market segment reasons for the disparity in weight between tablets and convertibles. Keyboards don't weigh a pound.
Heavy design mojo that could design a slate that could dock into a notebook half (mobile dock) and iMac half (stationary dock). I would hope that the mobile dock option would be around the same size as the current MB and have a nice hinge/locking mechanism.
That seems like a very elaborate, multi-piece solution to me, and so therefore un-Apple like.
Right. Show me a convertible that is 1.3 lbs and .75" thick. If you can its a winner. Since you can't, its not. You also need more than .25" for a keyboard that doesn't suck. The travel keyboard I have is 22mm (.86"). The convertible keyboard on the Motion is around half an inch looking at it. I'd guess the keyboard is around .5" on the MBP.
Um, I think you are missing my point. I just threw those numbers out there pursuant to the question "how small and light is small and light enough", i.e., is there some point at which a few ounces and fractions of an inch aren't a big problem because the tablet being added to is already so small and light.
Personally, I would accept a keyboard with somewhat restricted travel as a good compromise between tablet/virtual/thin as possible and convertible/keyboard/.4" thicker.
A thin slate with flash and low battery time is viable simply because of the form factor and if a decent notebook like dock is available with HDD, DVD, power and a keyboard.
A convertible with a 1 hour battery and only flash storage would suck. Its a self contained unit and decent battery life and decent storage are assumed to exist in a notebook like product.
So..... if we restrict the functionality of a slate it's OK because nobody expects it to do much, but if we do the same and put a keyboard on it it's a "notebook" and we can't get away with that? I dunno, this seems like kinda a reach.
And I don't see why a dock that works for a tablet doesn't work for a convertible. Geez, it's not like a keyboard is some kind of a mark of Satan or something, destroying all innovation or possibility.
An ultraportable with a compressed keyboard is...mmm...okay but likely not significantly better than typing on a virtual keyboard. I'd have to run tests to verify that (when I have a virtual keyboard to test) but my error rate and typing speed on something like the MoblePro 900 is pretty bad unless its the only thing I've been using a while. Don't have any of the better ultaportables with slightly larger keyboards to test.
It's not just key travel, although I disagree that "less" isn't functionally better than "none".
It's also the screen real estate the virtual keyboard takes up, and the convenience of a built in way to put the screen up at a viewing angle.
A UMPC with a MobilePro like full QWERTY keyboard would be awesome but no one makes that either.
Vinea
I think that's another animal altogether.
Now you are cherry picking.
Yes and no.
At that size you're looking at a really small keyboard. On the scale of the one in my MobilePro which is one of the smallest full QWERTY keyboards (ie not chicklet) built into a device. Probably about the same size as those mini-keyboards that you can attack to PDAs and folds up really small.
Key spacing is different and you'll have a lot more typos if you're used to a full sized keyboard. Which is why I commented that a virtual keyboard with no tactile feedback is likely about the same.
Nothing beats a full sized keyboard when you need to type.
And, unsurprisingly, I see the best option as having the keyboard option all the time, and not having to decide before I leave the house whether or not today's doings will bee slate-like or laptop like.
It sits in your laptop bag if you're mobile or on your desk if in your office. Making the wrong decision isn't catestrophic but the convenience is nice to be able to only need to manipulate the smallest portion that you need.
It's true, I haven't. But all I'm thinking about is the weight and size of a keyboard. Maybe there's something I'm missing, but it looks to me like there must be market segment reasons for the disparity in weight between tablets and convertibles. Keyboards don't weigh a pound.
Keyboards don't. Going from 1 hour to 4 hour battery life does. The X61 and Protege's are laptops first, tablets second and are designed accordingly.
That seems like a very elaborate, multi-piece solution to me, and so therefore un-Apple like.
Two pieces. Yes, more elaborate than Apple typically does but a docked iMac MT tablet has a certain elegance. The limiter is screen size which might break the design.
Um, I think you are missing my point. I just threw those numbers out there pursuant to the question "how small and light is small and light enough", i.e., is there some point at which a few ounces and fractions of an inch aren't a big problem because the tablet being added to is already so small and light.
I got the point. My counterpoint is that a slate is more likely to reach the desired "small and light enough" criteria. They don't now and they are lighter and thinner/smaller than convertibles.
So..... if we restrict the functionality of a slate it's OK because nobody expects it to do much, but if we do the same and put a keyboard on it it's a "notebook" and we can't get away with that? I dunno, this seems like kinda a reach.
Mkay. Find me a convertible with a 1-1.5 hour battery life. Yes, you can eliminate everything but the keyboard on a convertible but its not going to be a great laptop replacement unless you were also willing to live with all the limitations of an ultraportable.
And I don't see why a dock that works for a tablet doesn't work for a convertible. Geez, it's not like a keyboard is some kind of a mark of Satan or something, destroying all innovation or possibility.
You can certainly have a little dock that attaches to the convertible. I had a Compaq laptop with a little extender with a DVD drive and some ports on it that reduced the size and weight of the laptop. But heck, if you're going to do that and have a 4 hour battery pack as well why not integrate the keyboard with the dock part?
I think that's another animal altogether.
The MobilePro was small computer with a touch screen and a keyboard. If made today it would be a little bit thinner with a slightly larger, higher resolution screen, a real CPU running Vista rather than Windows CE. With the right hinge it could be a convertible.
A UMPC built along those lines fills many of the same niches as a slate or convertible. If I could use OneNote on this little guy in a tablet mode (ie screen flipped around) it would fullfill most of my notetaking needs. With the keyboard I can write documents...something the current UMPCs are impossible to do on with their chicklet two finger keyboards.
Same ecological niche. Which animal fills it is somewhat less important to me than getting the niche filled. If Apple made an ultraportable convertible I would be happy too.
Vinea
Gripes
1) Too slow. I'm pretty sure it's running on a pentium m processor. The lag time just bugs me especially after I've been working on my core 2 MBP. If Apple were to make one I hope they use a low power penryn chip that is reasonably robust.
2) The apps don't take advantage of the tablet. It's a specific gripe related to my particular app, but after using an iPhone I'm amazed that all the tablet really does is rotate from portrait to landscape view and has a hand held pen that works ok. I hope if Apple decide to make a tablet they give it additional functionality that isn't available on a conventional laptop.
Ideas I have:
1) LED screen. Lower power draw, better battery life. OLED would be even better as it's thinner, lighter but I don't know if this is possible.
2) Handwriting Recognition software a la Inkwell or VR software
3) Low Voltage Penryn chips so that things work crisply.
A 10 inch tablet screen is way too small for a tablet. Try 15'' that'd be good! but 10'' screen? Think about a 10'' screen on a regular computer.. too small.
I would instantly buy Apple's tablet when it comes out. I love the features tablets have but I want to be able to do it on a mac. I do art and animation and a tablet mac would be perfect.
Axiotron has released an un official mac tablet www.axiotron.com . The reason I'm not buying it is because there is a slight lag from the time you touch the screen until it actually show's up. It's slight when you don't work in the art field but when drawing or animating, lines showing up even mere seconds than after you draw them is extremely frustrating. The device is actually a macbook with a touch screen display.
A 10 inch tablet screen is way too small for a tablet.
Depends on what it's used for.
I don't think apple will release a tablet, I think these design's were hiding patented iPhone features.
A 10 inch tablet screen is way too small for a tablet. Try 15'' that'd be good! but 10'' screen? Think about a 10'' screen on a regular computer.. too small.
We did say it was Apple's ultra-portable. 15" isn't ultra-portable, sorry. Anyway, it doesn't have to 10", it could be 11.
We did say it was Apple's ultra-portable. 15" isn't ultra-portable, sorry. Anyway, it doesn't have to 10", it could be 11.
The Pole, nor the post title says ultra-portable and I only read a few posts.
The Pole, nor the post title says ultra-portable and I only read a few posts.
Quote from my title post:
"I suspect tablets, when they are done properly (i.e. when Apple does one) will begin to replace notebooks. I think Apple's ultra-portable--the one they are most definitely working on--may not even be a notebook."
You should give the optician a call.
Quote from my title post:
"I suspect tablets, when they are done properly (i.e. when Apple does one) will begin to replace notebooks. I think Apple's ultra-portable--the one they are most definitely working on--may not even be a notebook."
You should give the optician a call.
I read the forum post title, the pole, and commented.
The Pole
Ireland's Irish, not Polish.
Think about a 10'' screen on a regular computer.. too small.
I think small laptops are ok:
http://reviews.digitaltrends.com/review1606.html
I knew a few people who had machines like that and it made my 12" ibook look a bit clumsy, especially when they were sleek aluminium and mine was cheap white plastic.
I think as long as the make the device thin enough and light enough that a larger display would be fine. No more than 13" though.
I read the forum post title, the pole, and commented.
Eh, what in the?
The Pole, nor the post title says ultra-portable and I only read a few posts.
The title post does say "ultra-portable". You should have read it twice it seems.