What's the real difference between looking at a 24" iMac's screen and a 24" ACD being fed by a MacPro? Besides the "chin" that some people hate, there are a bunch of freaking wires coming out of the sides for people to connect their peripherals like extra HD, extra DVD drive, TV tuner, printer, media card reader, Airport. That's "wonderful"?
Excellent point! Apple's AIO approach can actually result in a more tangled and cluttered desktop, not less.
Gotta say the new iMacs are friggin AWESOME. 5 out of 5 stars. Gorgeous, so thin,"Where's the computer?". Even the keyboard is great. Truely an amazing engineering job. Apple engineers should get some very good options for this effort. Fast Intel cpus, large harddrive, decent graphics.
Since the Mac Mini has apparently received its last refresh and the 17" iMac is no more there's a big hole to fill in Apple's desktop line. If a new minitower is part of the Mac Pro line then it seems it will be introduced at the same time as Mac Pros next year. It may be that "it's an All-in-One world" this year but we all know that what Apple isn't interested in today doesn't mean forever.
I don't hold out any hope for a flexible mid to upper end tower from Apple. Steve Jobs basically confirmed that. His quote was something to the effect that everything is going AIO, citing the iPhone and laptops as examples.
I take this to mean that if you and I don't want AIOs don't consider Apple for computers, we're not consumers in a target market that Apple considers as acceptable. Apple does not want our money, ever.
Me, I'll probably keep buying Apple, I like their OS, I'm used to it. My needs are close enough to something they will offer. This will not provide a satisfying buying experience overall, and I will still post in threads like these.
I will continue to buy APPL stock, I'm confident for the foreseeable future APPL will outperform, although I firmly believe that an xMac would make these investments even more valuable.
Me, I'll probably keep buying Apple, I like their OS, I'm used to it.
At least once Leopard comes out and is available at retail, it'll be possible to install OS X (with some effort) on third-party hardware without having to pirate the OS. The only thing you'd be doing is breaking the EULA (presumably, I think there's something in there about only being allowed to run on Apple hardware), but that's far less morally dubious than piracy.
The iMac is a wonderful design because it's like a laptop... only it has the added benefits of not needing portability so it's design is larger than that of a laptop. Sebastian
Sorry, I'm dumbfounded by this statement. It argues completely opposite to every argument I've seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slewis
Midtowers are just like any other and there is very little room for innovation in the design field there.Sebastian
"little room for innovation" Oh how little faith you have in Apple's design teams.
I don't think your sales #'s are correct, and I think it's way too far low. But at any rate, I know oodles of people that were waiting for the Mac Pro to go intel dual core, just like me, and passed because Apple still didn't address workstation level graphics concerns, and they didn't offer the top performing graphics cards. It's a slap in the face to your user base when you know they are there and you ignore them. I have not bought a PowerMac (Mac Pro) since the G4, and I know a ton of people just like me that keep getting a slap in face from Apple. If their Mac Pro sales are down it's not because there isn't a market for Mac pro's, it's because they don't make a Mac Pro that can stand toe to toe with other the top of the line Machines. I know so many Alienware, BOXX, and BYO builders that are old school Mac users that get so disappointed and seriously pissed off after every new Mac Pro release. It's tragic that Apple abandoned us, and we still wait to see what is coming down the pipe. My 9600 was the best computer you could get when it came out hands down. My G4 looked like the best possible computer available when it came out, then I decided to skip a few Mac's because they looked not so great, and eventually I had to buy a top of the line Alienware, that was smokin' BTW. I thought intel would take Apple into an era where graphics cards would be interchangeable with PC's, and Apple could have easily went with that rout, but instead it's a second class workstation in the pro world. Everything else on that dual core machine was fine, but they still loused up the graphics options. They have no idea how big of a deal that is. How big of a deal is it to Apple to have the option there? Not as big as it is to users that base any Mac buy off of what is and isn't available on their platform. Apple looses face every time they release another Mac Pro. It's not only the people that wait to buy their disappointing Mac Pro's either. It's everybody. The word of mouth over dissatisfaction is a kick in the balls to them every time.
End of Rant.
It might eventually catch the attention of Apple if their Final Cut Pro sales tank, because those consumers do care about such mundane things.
It might eventually catch the attention of Apple if their Final Cut Pro sales tank, because those consumers do care about such mundane things.
If your talking about how Apple drapes itself with a mundane ora over the entire Mac line to an extremely large group of consumers because it tends to remain virtually featureless in it's high-end I'd say yes. Your exactly correct. It's current state even gives the whole line a mundane outlook for it's future existence.
I think Steve's reference to an all-in-one world was a nice way of saying, "We really don't plan on making a mid-range Mac any time soon except for the iMac."
Though I am surprised NOBODY in the press has flat out asked, "why haven't you made a mid-range Mac without a screen?"
I think Steve's reference to an all-in-one world was a nice way of saying, "We really don't plan on making a mid-range Mac any time soon except for the iMac."
Though I am surprised NOBODY in the press has flat out asked, "why haven't you made a mid-range Mac without a screen?"
Everyone who expects the xMac to be a $1200 headless Mac with iMac specs: It's not gonna happen.
But here's something you can hope for:
During the G3 and G4 days, the PowerMac started around $1500. You would have a single-socket (at the time single-core) machine below $2000, then 2 configs above $2000.
I think the best hope for an xMac lies not in waiting for a consumer headless, but looking for a split in the Mac Pro line.
A $2500+ two socket Mac Pro with 8 FB-DIMM slots will make onlooker and the hardcore Pro crowd happy.
A $1500-$1800 single socket Mac Pro with 4 DDR2/3 slots will make xMac consumer fans and this guy (a pro) happy.
What's the real difference between looking at a 24" iMac's screen and a 24" ACD being fed by a MacPro? Besides the "chin" that some people hate, there are a bunch of freaking wires coming out of the sides for people to connect their peripherals like extra HD, extra DVD drive, TV tuner, printer, media card reader, Airport. That's "wonderful"?
Extra HD: 802.11N to NAS
TV Tuner: iTunes or IPTV feed
Printer: 802.11N to printer (on a wireless 802.11N print server)
Airport: Why are you connecting your iMac to your Airport via a wire?
Sure, things like the TV Tuner and media card reader still need USB but the other things really don't NEED to be.
A $1500-$1800 single socket Mac Pro with 4 DDR2/3 slots will make xMac consumer fans and this guy (a pro) happy.
That link is exactly how I feel. Apple are driving themselves out of businesses by not delivering the hardware that people need and by extension out of some people's homes because what they have at home isn't completely compatible with what they use at work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CosmoNut
I think Steve's reference to an all-in-one world was a nice way of saying, "We really don't plan on making a mid-range Mac any time soon except for the iMac."
Though I am surprised NOBODY in the press has flat out asked, "why haven't you made a mid-range Mac without a screen?"
Yeah, someone needs to say it. Just have someone run up on stage at a keynote shouting that we want a mid-range Mac. I'd vote for Steve Ballmer to do it.
I think I'll just give Apple some more feedback about it again.
It's current state even gives the whole line a mundane outlook for it's future existence.
And by that I mean many of those who don't buy Mac's don't buy them because in it's current state it's close to what they want, but close is not enough. Apple has never came through with the high-end so thinking that they will next time always leaves you in the same boat. Next time gets here and it's still another disappointment. That disappointment carries through the minds of others from word of mouth, who wouldn't even be interested in the Mac Pro but because of it, they know the Mac side has inadequacies. What they do know is they don't want to buy from a manufacturer that makes inadequate computers? I think Apples "close is good enough", or "almost there" outlook is what has kept them in the lower percentile. They may be growing lately, but they will still hit that wall again. They need to break it and give people what they want. That result would be an overwhelming satisfaction in their product line which is what in turn will increase Mac sales exponentially.
Bollocks. I've shown time and again, in great detail (and I have no desire to update the analysis, I'm sure it still holds and I don't have the time), that Apple could get at least 25% margin out of an xMac and still price it competitively to the competition. Each config would be about $100 - 200 more than an identically configured DELL, much more enticing to potential Windows switchers than even the latest iMacs.
Printer: 802.11N to printer (on a wireless 802.11N print server)
Airport: Why are you connecting your iMac to your Airport via a wire?
Sure, things like the TV Tuner and media card reader still need USB but the other things really don't NEED to be.
Vinea
NAS seems to be your answer to everything. NAS, even USB2 is not enough for certain tasks like audio multitracking (not pro, just home recording), even consumer music software like Garageband recommands using a 2nd HD preferably firewire or ATA/SATA for the audio projects. Having used those kind of software for years, I can tell you that for good results internal drives are way better than anything FW (including FW800) or USB (including USB2) and some consumer audio software isn't even compatible with RAID drives!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanmugam
xMac do not have the margin apple looking for, so NO NO to xMac or (just a) Mac!
you want cube go and see all the apple stores!
You don't know that. Given the price of desktop parts (cpu, chipset, RAM, HDs, ODs,...) it may well provide better margins than any mobile or hybrid computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker
And by that I mean many of those who don't buy Mac's don't buy them because in it's current state it's close to what they want, but close is not enough. Apple has never came through with the high-end so thinking that they will next time always leaves you in the same boat. Next time gets here and it's still another disappointment. That disappointment carries through the minds of others from word of mouth, who wouldn't even be interested in the Mac Pro but because of it, they know the Mac side has inadequacies. What they do know is they don't want to buy from a manufacturer that makes inadequate computers? I think Apples "close is good enough", or "almost there" outlook is what has kept them in the lower percentile. They may be growing lately, but they will still hit that wall again. They need to break it and give people what they want. That result would be an overwhelming satisfaction in their product line which is what in turn will increase Mac sales exponentially.
Comments
What's the real difference between looking at a 24" iMac's screen and a 24" ACD being fed by a MacPro? Besides the "chin" that some people hate, there are a bunch of freaking wires coming out of the sides for people to connect their peripherals like extra HD, extra DVD drive, TV tuner, printer, media card reader, Airport. That's "wonderful"?
Excellent point! Apple's AIO approach can actually result in a more tangled and cluttered desktop, not less.
I just don't want one.
Since the Mac Mini has apparently received its last refresh and the 17" iMac is no more there's a big hole to fill in Apple's desktop line. If a new minitower is part of the Mac Pro line then it seems it will be introduced at the same time as Mac Pros next year. It may be that "it's an All-in-One world" this year but we all know that what Apple isn't interested in today doesn't mean forever.
I don't hold out any hope for a flexible mid to upper end tower from Apple. Steve Jobs basically confirmed that. His quote was something to the effect that everything is going AIO, citing the iPhone and laptops as examples.
I take this to mean that if you and I don't want AIOs don't consider Apple for computers, we're not consumers in a target market that Apple considers as acceptable. Apple does not want our money, ever.
Me, I'll probably keep buying Apple, I like their OS, I'm used to it. My needs are close enough to something they will offer. This will not provide a satisfying buying experience overall, and I will still post in threads like these.
I will continue to buy APPL stock, I'm confident for the foreseeable future APPL will outperform, although I firmly believe that an xMac would make these investments even more valuable.
OMG NAFWNAHIT!
Not
Another
Fucing
We
Need
A
Headless
iMac
Thread
WE KNOW WE DO WE KNOW WE DO APPLE SIMPLY DOESN'T GIVE A CRAP!
Dave
What did you expect? There are millions of consumers that would like an xMac. These threads will never go away, ever.
Me, I'll probably keep buying Apple, I like their OS, I'm used to it.
At least once Leopard comes out and is available at retail, it'll be possible to install OS X (with some effort) on third-party hardware without having to pirate the OS. The only thing you'd be doing is breaking the EULA (presumably, I think there's something in there about only being allowed to run on Apple hardware), but that's far less morally dubious than piracy.
You're out of luck then. Apple has no plans to ship junk, midtowers qualify because they are a common and overused design from Apple's competitors.
Sebastian
No one is asking for junk. You are misinformed as to what many posters are asking for.
Minor point. Look up the specifications on the developer boxes Apple shipped during the Intel transition.
But they are best in category...for AIOs.
Vinea
Most everyone will agree with this.
Millions just don't care.
Excellent point! Apple's AIO approach can actually result in a more tangled and cluttered desktop, not less.
They don't care.
Apple's vision is you buy the computer and add nothing, ever, it's too complicated for idiot consumers.
..
The iMac is a wonderful design because it's like a laptop... only it has the added benefits of not needing portability so it's design is larger than that of a laptop. Sebastian
Sorry, I'm dumbfounded by this statement. It argues completely opposite to every argument I've seen.
Midtowers are just like any other and there is very little room for innovation in the design field there.Sebastian
"little room for innovation" Oh how little faith you have in Apple's design teams.
I don't think your sales #'s are correct, and I think it's way too far low. But at any rate, I know oodles of people that were waiting for the Mac Pro to go intel dual core, just like me, and passed because Apple still didn't address workstation level graphics concerns, and they didn't offer the top performing graphics cards. It's a slap in the face to your user base when you know they are there and you ignore them. I have not bought a PowerMac (Mac Pro) since the G4, and I know a ton of people just like me that keep getting a slap in face from Apple. If their Mac Pro sales are down it's not because there isn't a market for Mac pro's, it's because they don't make a Mac Pro that can stand toe to toe with other the top of the line Machines. I know so many Alienware, BOXX, and BYO builders that are old school Mac users that get so disappointed and seriously pissed off after every new Mac Pro release. It's tragic that Apple abandoned us, and we still wait to see what is coming down the pipe. My 9600 was the best computer you could get when it came out hands down. My G4 looked like the best possible computer available when it came out, then I decided to skip a few Mac's because they looked not so great, and eventually I had to buy a top of the line Alienware, that was smokin' BTW. I thought intel would take Apple into an era where graphics cards would be interchangeable with PC's, and Apple could have easily went with that rout, but instead it's a second class workstation in the pro world. Everything else on that dual core machine was fine, but they still loused up the graphics options. They have no idea how big of a deal that is. How big of a deal is it to Apple to have the option there? Not as big as it is to users that base any Mac buy off of what is and isn't available on their platform. Apple looses face every time they release another Mac Pro. It's not only the people that wait to buy their disappointing Mac Pro's either. It's everybody. The word of mouth over dissatisfaction is a kick in the balls to them every time.
End of Rant.
It might eventually catch the attention of Apple if their Final Cut Pro sales tank, because those consumers do care about such mundane things.
It might eventually catch the attention of Apple if their Final Cut Pro sales tank, because those consumers do care about such mundane things.
If your talking about how Apple drapes itself with a mundane ora over the entire Mac line to an extremely large group of consumers because it tends to remain virtually featureless in it's high-end I'd say yes. Your exactly correct. It's current state even gives the whole line a mundane outlook for it's future existence.
Though I am surprised NOBODY in the press has flat out asked, "why haven't you made a mid-range Mac without a screen?"
I think Steve's reference to an all-in-one world was a nice way of saying, "We really don't plan on making a mid-range Mac any time soon except for the iMac."
Though I am surprised NOBODY in the press has flat out asked, "why haven't you made a mid-range Mac without a screen?"
Everyone who expects the xMac to be a $1200 headless Mac with iMac specs: It's not gonna happen.
But here's something you can hope for:
During the G3 and G4 days, the PowerMac started around $1500. You would have a single-socket (at the time single-core) machine below $2000, then 2 configs above $2000.
I think the best hope for an xMac lies not in waiting for a consumer headless, but looking for a split in the Mac Pro line.
A $2500+ two socket Mac Pro with 8 FB-DIMM slots will make onlooker and the hardcore Pro crowd happy.
A $1500-$1800 single socket Mac Pro with 4 DDR2/3 slots will make xMac consumer fans and this guy (a pro) happy.
What's the real difference between looking at a 24" iMac's screen and a 24" ACD being fed by a MacPro? Besides the "chin" that some people hate, there are a bunch of freaking wires coming out of the sides for people to connect their peripherals like extra HD, extra DVD drive, TV tuner, printer, media card reader, Airport. That's "wonderful"?
Extra HD: 802.11N to NAS
TV Tuner: iTunes or IPTV feed
Printer: 802.11N to printer (on a wireless 802.11N print server)
Airport: Why are you connecting your iMac to your Airport via a wire?
Sure, things like the TV Tuner and media card reader still need USB but the other things really don't NEED to be.
Vinea
A $1500-$1800 single socket Mac Pro with 4 DDR2/3 slots will make xMac consumer fans and this guy (a pro) happy.
That link is exactly how I feel. Apple are driving themselves out of businesses by not delivering the hardware that people need and by extension out of some people's homes because what they have at home isn't completely compatible with what they use at work.
I think Steve's reference to an all-in-one world was a nice way of saying, "We really don't plan on making a mid-range Mac any time soon except for the iMac."
Though I am surprised NOBODY in the press has flat out asked, "why haven't you made a mid-range Mac without a screen?"
Yeah, someone needs to say it. Just have someone run up on stage at a keynote shouting that we want a mid-range Mac. I'd vote for Steve Ballmer to do it.
I think I'll just give Apple some more feedback about it again.
you want cube go and see all the apple stores!
It's current state even gives the whole line a mundane outlook for it's future existence.
And by that I mean many of those who don't buy Mac's don't buy them because in it's current state it's close to what they want, but close is not enough. Apple has never came through with the high-end so thinking that they will next time always leaves you in the same boat. Next time gets here and it's still another disappointment. That disappointment carries through the minds of others from word of mouth, who wouldn't even be interested in the Mac Pro but because of it, they know the Mac side has inadequacies. What they do know is they don't want to buy from a manufacturer that makes inadequate computers? I think Apples "close is good enough", or "almost there" outlook is what has kept them in the lower percentile. They may be growing lately, but they will still hit that wall again. They need to break it and give people what they want. That result would be an overwhelming satisfaction in their product line which is what in turn will increase Mac sales exponentially.
xMac do not have the margin apple looking for
Bollocks. I've shown time and again, in great detail (and I have no desire to update the analysis, I'm sure it still holds and I don't have the time), that Apple could get at least 25% margin out of an xMac and still price it competitively to the competition. Each config would be about $100 - 200 more than an identically configured DELL, much more enticing to potential Windows switchers than even the latest iMacs.
Extra HD: 802.11N to NAS
TV Tuner: iTunes or IPTV feed
Printer: 802.11N to printer (on a wireless 802.11N print server)
Airport: Why are you connecting your iMac to your Airport via a wire?
Sure, things like the TV Tuner and media card reader still need USB but the other things really don't NEED to be.
Vinea
NAS seems to be your answer to everything. NAS, even USB2 is not enough for certain tasks like audio multitracking (not pro, just home recording), even consumer music software like Garageband recommands using a 2nd HD preferably firewire or ATA/SATA for the audio projects. Having used those kind of software for years, I can tell you that for good results internal drives are way better than anything FW (including FW800) or USB (including USB2) and some consumer audio software isn't even compatible with RAID drives!!!
xMac do not have the margin apple looking for, so NO NO to xMac or (just a) Mac!
you want cube go and see all the apple stores!
You don't know that. Given the price of desktop parts (cpu, chipset, RAM, HDs, ODs,...) it may well provide better margins than any mobile or hybrid computer.
And by that I mean many of those who don't buy Mac's don't buy them because in it's current state it's close to what they want, but close is not enough. Apple has never came through with the high-end so thinking that they will next time always leaves you in the same boat. Next time gets here and it's still another disappointment. That disappointment carries through the minds of others from word of mouth, who wouldn't even be interested in the Mac Pro but because of it, they know the Mac side has inadequacies. What they do know is they don't want to buy from a manufacturer that makes inadequate computers? I think Apples "close is good enough", or "almost there" outlook is what has kept them in the lower percentile. They may be growing lately, but they will still hit that wall again. They need to break it and give people what they want. That result would be an overwhelming satisfaction in their product line which is what in turn will increase Mac sales exponentially.
hear, hear.
What did you expect? There are millions of consumers that would like an xMac. These threads will never go away, ever.
Can you show us a reference to your detailed market research?
Better still, show it to Apple.
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.