If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
You don't have to do market research or guesswork. You just have to look at the offerings of every single other desktop computer manufacturer out there. How many make AIOs? And how many make towers? Only a bumbling idiot would conclude that most people looking for a desktop computer don't want a tower.
That link is exactly how I feel. Apple are driving themselves out of businesses by not delivering the hardware that people need and by extension out of some people's homes because what they have at home isn't completely compatible with what they use at work.
i agree that a midlevel tower would sell well, but "driving themselves out of business" is about the worst phrase you could use to describe apple right now. did you not just notice in their last quarterly report that they've sold more macs in one quarter than they ever have in their history? that's hardly "going out of business."
Can you show us a reference to your detailed market research?
Better still, show it to Apple.
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
Market research? Bah, all you have to do is look around. The reason Apple isn't selling a consumer tower, the only reason as far as I see, is Steve's insistance that an AIO is what we need and want.
Quote: “We think it is an all-in-one world,” said Jobs.
“Why do people put up with this stuff on the desktop?” he asked, showing attendees a picture of a Dell desktop PC brimming with wires and cables. “We think there’s a much better way, and the much better way is this,” he added, showing the iMac."
i agree that a midlevel tower would sell well, but "driving themselves out of business" is about the worst phrase you could use to describe apple right now. did you not just notice in their last quarterly report that they've sold more macs in one quarter than they ever have in their history? that's hardly "going out of business."
Actually, he said "driving themselves out of businesses", which simply means (and it's true) that Apple is being hurt in the business sector by not having an xMac. It says nothing about their overall profitability.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software. Mac OS X rocks, but it has 3 issues in businesses:
Exchange - Mail + iCal is not an answer to Exchange
Access - Apple can reasonably challenge Word, Excel, and Powerpoint with applications that'll cover 95% of business needs, but they have no answer for databases.
Training - An awful lot of IT people have MS certification, and that's about it. They're cheaper to hire than people who can do UNIX or OS X stuff (because they're more numerous). If the company has to retrain their techies the Apple way, it's game over for Apple in that business.
I think that most businesses would gladly buy a Mac Mini instead of a tower. They don't need a second hard drive, and they don't need a second monitor. The businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro (single-socket Quad-Core, 4 DDR2 slots, 2-4 HDDs, 2 PCIe slots)
Such impatience. When Steve thinks it is time to come out with the xMac he will release it with great fanfare and RDF. It will be the best thing since sliced bread, only an Ive case and Leopard will stand between it and the other boxes on the Best Buy store shelf. It will be great.
Then all will be right with the world and the forums will have to shift to more threads on why Apple will go out of business unless they........ e.g. have XXX hardware or be configurable just like HP, Dell or Gateway? overclock like XXX motherboard? or run some other software?
Seriously I think that after Leopard is released Apple will come out with new form factors, e.g UPC or xMac.
Tiger is in stabilize and maintain.
P.S. I read these discussions because I have a 4 year old G5 Dualie and I would like something with four cores with a smaller power supply able to drive two 30" displays. Maybe based on Penryn. At this point un-obtainium. (Don't question the requirements they are wants not needs.)
Patience has always been a requirement as a Mac user.
I think that most businesses would gladly buy a Mac Mini instead of a tower. They don't need a second hard drive, and they don't need a second monitor. The businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro (single-socket Quad-Core, 4 DDR2 slots, 2-4 HDDs, 2 PCIe slots)
No, most businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro for about $500 less.
No, most businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro for about $500 less.
That would kind of surprise me. Most Businesses I have seen use computers for email, word processing, and as clients to a database, which is exactly the sort of work a Mac Mini is suited for.
Actually, he said "driving themselves out of businesses", which simply means (and it's true) that Apple is being hurt in the business sector by not having an xMac. It says nothing about their overall profitability.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software. Mac OS X rocks, but it has 3 issues in businesses:
Exchange - Mail + iCal is not an answer to Exchange
Access - Apple can reasonably challenge Word, Excel, and Powerpoint with applications that'll cover 95% of business needs, but they have no answer for databases.
Training - An awful lot of IT people have MS certification, and that's about it. They're cheaper to hire than people who can do UNIX or OS X stuff (because they're more numerous). If the company has to retrain their techies the Apple way, it's game over for Apple in that business.
I think that most businesses would gladly buy a Mac Mini instead of a tower. They don't need a second hard drive, and they don't need a second monitor. The businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro (single-socket Quad-Core, 4 DDR2 slots, 2-4 HDDs, 2 PCIe slots)
driving themselves out of business usually implies that they're putting their own business at risk rather than that they're driving themselves out of the business market. in any case, they were never really IN the enterprise, so i don't see how they're driving themselves out of it more than just preventing it from happening.
So let's look at the iPod paradigm. When Apple came out with the first iPod, folks bought it and there was much rejoicing. Apple then saw that it was a good idea to release other models like the Shuffle, Mini and later Nano. Why?
The iPod should be all we need in an MP3 player right? After all it came from Steve, and therefore by definition it is the final word in MP3 players.
Was it possibly because the folks at Apple realized that there were more ears that needed white earbuds. And, possibly, those 'budless ears were not hearing the Gospel according to Steve.
How then to expand your market share... Anyone... Anyone...
...ahhhh yes! That is correct, you offer the public MORE OPTIONS. You don't expect that consumers fit into one, maybe two catergories. You allow them (the great unwashed) to choose what price point they want. And then, you allow your newly expanded consumer base to use your device on their PCs. That way of marketing works.
Does anyone think that iPod sales would be nearly as large if Apple only 1) Offered 1 or 2 options and 2)allowed the iPod to be used exclusively on Mac OS.
Well if your answer is "...of course not you idiot!" Then pray tell why a similiar argument IS being used, quite vehemently, regarding Apple offering a smaller Mac Pro or xMac. \
Can you show us a reference to your detailed market research?
Better still, show it to Apple.
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
I think Apple does things the way Steve thinks are best. He probably has decided a mid-priced tower is too much like what every other PC company is making (and might cannibalize some iMac or Powermac sales), and isn't interested in a marketing study's to say it would sell. I think he likes to give people what he wants them to have, not necessarily everything they would want.
You don't know that. Given the price of desktop parts (cpu, chipset, RAM, HDs, ODs,...) it may well provide better margins than any mobile or hybrid computer....
When has logic gotten in the way of people posting rationalizations as to why Apple either doesn't or will not offer an xMac.
Such impatience. When Steve thinks it is time to come out with the xMac he will release it with great fanfare and RDF...
I used to think so, but Steve Jobs' latest comments pretty much has sealed the deal for me. Apple will never offer anything in the mid to upper end in performance for the consumer that is not AIO.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software. [*]Access - Apple can reasonably challenge Word, Excel, and Powerpoint with applications that'll cover 95% of business needs, but they have no answer for databases.
)
What's wrong with filemaker pro? I've read it's a nice DB, although I admit I've not used it. I read it now interfaces well with SQL DBs.
When has logic gotten in the way of people posting rationalizations as to why Apple either doesn't or will not offer an xMac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickag
I used to think so, but Steve Jobs' latest comments pretty much has sealed the deal for me. Apple will never offer anything in the mid to upper end in performance for the consumer that is not AIO.
That may be sadly true. At least some of us are still dreaming about it :check this!
That may be sadly true. At least some of us are still dreaming about it :check this!
I've always been impressed by the number of people that come up with ideas and post them on these and other boards. Kind of shows a need somewhere I would think.
Actually, he said "driving themselves out of businesses", which simply means (and it's true) that Apple is being hurt in the business sector by not having an xMac. It says nothing about their overall profitability.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software.
The software does have issues but some people run Windows on the Macs all the time. The hardware design is what would sell it to a good number of businesses. Take CAD software for example. AutoCAD is Windows only but the architects will have nicely designed offices and would likely want a nicely designed computer to go on their desks. They need good 3D hardware and possibly high quality displays for their video output so the AIO design is out and PC towers are pretty noisy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by admactanium
driving themselves out of business usually implies that they're putting their own business at risk rather than that they're driving themselves out of the business market. in any case, they were never really IN the enterprise, so i don't see how they're driving themselves out of it more than just preventing it from happening.
I didn't say out of business though (for the second time) I said out of businesses, which means the business sector. You're right that they aren't in businesses much as it is so it is more preventing it happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxPhotog
How then to expand your market share... Anyone... Anyone...
...ahhhh yes! That is correct, you offer the public MORE OPTIONS. You don't expect that consumers fit into one, maybe two catergories. You allow them (the great unwashed) to choose what price point they want. And then, you allow your newly expanded consumer base to use your device on their PCs. That way of marketing works.
Does anyone think that iPod sales would be nearly as large if Apple only 1) Offered 1 or 2 options and 2)allowed the iPod to be used exclusively on Mac OS.
Well if your answer is "...of course not you idiot!" Then pray tell why a similiar argument IS being used, quite vehemently, regarding Apple offering a smaller Mac Pro or xMac.
Exactly, there are 4 categories of mac user not 3 and Apple are missing out the largest sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iPeon
We think it is an all-in-one world
We think there?s a much better way
They need to stop thinking different for the sake of it and open their eyes to where the majority of the sales are going. I don't see how an iMac is that much more of an all-in-one over a mid-tower. The only difference is the screen, which is two cables extra and if Apple invented a way to put power over the display cable, it would be one - I'm thinking about a separate port to one side of the DVI port so that other displays are still supported.
Not everybody needs a webcam but in any case, I actually find the iMac one a bit annoying because it's there all the time when you don't need it to be and if you are in a video chat with someone and want to show them your screen, you can't take off the camera and whip it round. Also if the camera breaks, you have to send a 20" desktop back to get it fixed.
That starts at $1,379. Apple wouldn't likely go below $1599 which could get you a 2.0Ghz or 2.66 Ghz depending on how much Apple wants to compete against Dell in this segment.
Of course folks STILL whine that it's a Xeon, uses FB-DIMMS blah blah blah.
Comments
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
You don't have to do market research or guesswork. You just have to look at the offerings of every single other desktop computer manufacturer out there. How many make AIOs? And how many make towers? Only a bumbling idiot would conclude that most people looking for a desktop computer don't want a tower.
That link is exactly how I feel. Apple are driving themselves out of businesses by not delivering the hardware that people need and by extension out of some people's homes because what they have at home isn't completely compatible with what they use at work.
i agree that a midlevel tower would sell well, but "driving themselves out of business" is about the worst phrase you could use to describe apple right now. did you not just notice in their last quarterly report that they've sold more macs in one quarter than they ever have in their history? that's hardly "going out of business."
Can you show us a reference to your detailed market research?
Better still, show it to Apple.
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
Market research? Bah, all you have to do is look around. The reason Apple isn't selling a consumer tower, the only reason as far as I see, is Steve's insistance that an AIO is what we need and want.
Quote: “We think it is an all-in-one world,” said Jobs.
“Why do people put up with this stuff on the desktop?” he asked, showing attendees a picture of a Dell desktop PC brimming with wires and cables. “We think there’s a much better way, and the much better way is this,” he added, showing the iMac."
i agree that a midlevel tower would sell well, but "driving themselves out of business" is about the worst phrase you could use to describe apple right now. did you not just notice in their last quarterly report that they've sold more macs in one quarter than they ever have in their history? that's hardly "going out of business."
Actually, he said "driving themselves out of businesses", which simply means (and it's true) that Apple is being hurt in the business sector by not having an xMac. It says nothing about their overall profitability.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software. Mac OS X rocks, but it has 3 issues in businesses:
- Exchange - Mail + iCal is not an answer to Exchange
- Access - Apple can reasonably challenge Word, Excel, and Powerpoint with applications that'll cover 95% of business needs, but they have no answer for databases.
- Training - An awful lot of IT people have MS certification, and that's about it. They're cheaper to hire than people who can do UNIX or OS X stuff (because they're more numerous). If the company has to retrain their techies the Apple way, it's game over for Apple in that business.
I think that most businesses would gladly buy a Mac Mini instead of a tower. They don't need a second hard drive, and they don't need a second monitor. The businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro (single-socket Quad-Core, 4 DDR2 slots, 2-4 HDDs, 2 PCIe slots)Then all will be right with the world and the forums will have to shift to more threads on why Apple will go out of business unless they........ e.g. have XXX hardware or be configurable just like HP, Dell or Gateway? overclock like XXX motherboard? or run some other software?
Seriously I think that after Leopard is released Apple will come out with new form factors, e.g UPC or xMac.
Tiger is in stabilize and maintain.
P.S. I read these discussions because I have a 4 year old G5 Dualie and I would like something with four cores with a smaller power supply able to drive two 30" displays. Maybe based on Penryn. At this point un-obtainium. (Don't question the requirements they are wants not needs.)
Patience has always been a requirement as a Mac user.
I think that most businesses would gladly buy a Mac Mini instead of a tower. They don't need a second hard drive, and they don't need a second monitor. The businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro (single-socket Quad-Core, 4 DDR2 slots, 2-4 HDDs, 2 PCIe slots)
No, most businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro for about $500 less.
No, most businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro for about $500 less.
That would kind of surprise me. Most Businesses I have seen use computers for email, word processing, and as clients to a database, which is exactly the sort of work a Mac Mini is suited for.
Actually, he said "driving themselves out of businesses", which simply means (and it's true) that Apple is being hurt in the business sector by not having an xMac. It says nothing about their overall profitability.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software. Mac OS X rocks, but it has 3 issues in businesses:
- Exchange - Mail + iCal is not an answer to Exchange
- Access - Apple can reasonably challenge Word, Excel, and Powerpoint with applications that'll cover 95% of business needs, but they have no answer for databases.
- Training - An awful lot of IT people have MS certification, and that's about it. They're cheaper to hire than people who can do UNIX or OS X stuff (because they're more numerous). If the company has to retrain their techies the Apple way, it's game over for Apple in that business.
I think that most businesses would gladly buy a Mac Mini instead of a tower. They don't need a second hard drive, and they don't need a second monitor. The businesses that say they want an xMac really want a low-end Mac Pro (single-socket Quad-Core, 4 DDR2 slots, 2-4 HDDs, 2 PCIe slots)driving themselves out of business usually implies that they're putting their own business at risk rather than that they're driving themselves out of the business market. in any case, they were never really IN the enterprise, so i don't see how they're driving themselves out of it more than just preventing it from happening.
The iPod should be all we need in an MP3 player right? After all it came from Steve, and therefore by definition it is the final word in MP3 players.
Was it possibly because the folks at Apple realized that there were more ears that needed white earbuds. And, possibly, those 'budless ears were not hearing the Gospel according to Steve.
How then to expand your market share... Anyone... Anyone...
...ahhhh yes! That is correct, you offer the public MORE OPTIONS. You don't expect that consumers fit into one, maybe two catergories. You allow them (the great unwashed) to choose what price point they want. And then, you allow your newly expanded consumer base to use your device on their PCs. That way of marketing works.
Does anyone think that iPod sales would be nearly as large if Apple only 1) Offered 1 or 2 options and 2)allowed the iPod to be used exclusively on Mac OS.
Well if your answer is "...of course not you idiot!" Then pray tell why a similiar argument IS being used, quite vehemently, regarding Apple offering a smaller Mac Pro or xMac.
Can you show us a reference to your detailed market research?
Better still, show it to Apple.
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
I think Apple does things the way Steve thinks are best. He probably has decided a mid-priced tower is too much like what every other PC company is making (and might cannibalize some iMac or Powermac sales), and isn't interested in a marketing study's to say it would sell. I think he likes to give people what he wants them to have, not necessarily everything they would want.
...
You don't know that. Given the price of desktop parts (cpu, chipset, RAM, HDs, ODs,...) it may well provide better margins than any mobile or hybrid computer....
When has logic gotten in the way of people posting rationalizations as to why Apple either doesn't or will not offer an xMac.
Can you show us a reference to your detailed market research?
Better still, show it to Apple.
If you've done proper market research, rather than just guesswork, they'll clearly be interested.
Don't need no stinking market research.
AIO is niche, always has been, currently still is.
All you or I need to do is look at what is currently being sold. Towers, the buying public speaks with its' wallet.
Such impatience. When Steve thinks it is time to come out with the xMac he will release it with great fanfare and RDF...
I used to think so, but Steve Jobs' latest comments pretty much has sealed the deal for me. Apple will never offer anything in the mid to upper end in performance for the consumer that is not AIO.
Don't need no stinking market research.
AIO is niche, always has been, currently still is.
All you or I need to do is look at what is currently being sold. Towers, the buying public speaks with its' wallet.
Could also attribute that to the fact that there are very few AIOs on the market in the first place.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software. [*]Access - Apple can reasonably challenge Word, Excel, and Powerpoint with applications that'll cover 95% of business needs, but they have no answer for databases.
)
What's wrong with filemaker pro? I've read it's a nice DB, although I admit I've not used it. I read it now interfaces well with SQL DBs.
When has logic gotten in the way of people posting rationalizations as to why Apple either doesn't or will not offer an xMac.
I used to think so, but Steve Jobs' latest comments pretty much has sealed the deal for me. Apple will never offer anything in the mid to upper end in performance for the consumer that is not AIO.
That may be sadly true. At least some of us are still dreaming about it :check this!
That may be sadly true. At least some of us are still dreaming about it :check this!
I've always been impressed by the number of people that come up with ideas and post them on these and other boards. Kind of shows a need somewhere I would think.
Actually, he said "driving themselves out of businesses", which simply means (and it's true) that Apple is being hurt in the business sector by not having an xMac. It says nothing about their overall profitability.
Personally, I disagree, and I think that the number one thing killing Macs in businesses is not hardware but software.
The software does have issues but some people run Windows on the Macs all the time. The hardware design is what would sell it to a good number of businesses. Take CAD software for example. AutoCAD is Windows only but the architects will have nicely designed offices and would likely want a nicely designed computer to go on their desks. They need good 3D hardware and possibly high quality displays for their video output so the AIO design is out and PC towers are pretty noisy.
driving themselves out of business usually implies that they're putting their own business at risk rather than that they're driving themselves out of the business market. in any case, they were never really IN the enterprise, so i don't see how they're driving themselves out of it more than just preventing it from happening.
I didn't say out of business though (for the second time) I said out of businesses, which means the business sector. You're right that they aren't in businesses much as it is so it is more preventing it happening.
How then to expand your market share... Anyone... Anyone...
...ahhhh yes! That is correct, you offer the public MORE OPTIONS. You don't expect that consumers fit into one, maybe two catergories. You allow them (the great unwashed) to choose what price point they want. And then, you allow your newly expanded consumer base to use your device on their PCs. That way of marketing works.
Does anyone think that iPod sales would be nearly as large if Apple only 1) Offered 1 or 2 options and 2)allowed the iPod to be used exclusively on Mac OS.
Well if your answer is "...of course not you idiot!" Then pray tell why a similiar argument IS being used, quite vehemently, regarding Apple offering a smaller Mac Pro or xMac.
Exactly, there are 4 categories of mac user not 3 and Apple are missing out the largest sector.
We think it is an all-in-one world
We think there?s a much better way
They need to stop thinking different for the sake of it and open their eyes to where the majority of the sales are going. I don't see how an iMac is that much more of an all-in-one over a mid-tower. The only difference is the screen, which is two cables extra and if Apple invented a way to put power over the display cable, it would be one - I'm thinking about a separate port to one side of the DVI port so that other displays are still supported.
Not everybody needs a webcam but in any case, I actually find the iMac one a bit annoying because it's there all the time when you don't need it to be and if you are in a video chat with someone and want to show them your screen, you can't take off the camera and whip it round. Also if the camera breaks, you have to send a 20" desktop back to get it fixed.
Will it? Who knows, its not hard to do, there's no engineering required. It would compete against this:
http://www.dell.com/content/products...=04&l=en&s=bsd
That starts at $1,379. Apple wouldn't likely go below $1599 which could get you a 2.0Ghz or 2.66 Ghz depending on how much Apple wants to compete against Dell in this segment.
Of course folks STILL whine that it's a Xeon, uses FB-DIMMS blah blah blah.
Like who cares? It's better than you got now.
Vinea
1) What specifically this mid-range Mac should be like (looks, specs, etc.)
2) What affect this mid-range Mac would have on the sale of other Macs.
3) Who each line of Macs would be marketed to if the mid-range Mac goes on sale.
4) What this mid-range Mac would cost (think like Apple does).