And it would be laughed out of court. Apple is under absolutely no obligation to stick to the iMovie HD code base. They can release and discontinue products as they please, unless they're under contract to do otherwise. People really do throw around the word "lawsuit" way too much these days.
I do think Apple would be wise to lower the price of Final Cut Express though, for those iMovie HD users who are seeking some sort of upgrade path.
You missed the point, it not because of the change, it about lack of disclosure. Whether you or I agree, it is pretty obvious Apple at no time said the iMovie 08 (notice the same name as the previous version) did not have the same features of the previous version. Like me, others watch Steve present the product, read a bunch and had the expectation that it was the same as the old iMovie plus all the new changes.
This is a point that I grant you others will make and the lack of disclosure on apple part that the new program was in fact missing features form previous version will be the issue. If they changed more then the icon then I agree with you. This is the point many others are also making, they should have changed the name.
Trust me, I will not join in the suit since I am fairly happy and I do not use imovie that much so I got it for other reasons.
The iMovie '08 interface should have been a quick mode built on top of iMovie.
They couldn't do that, the complete core of the application has changed, and has had to change to give the improved speed of the application. If you don't like it, don't use and wait to see if version 2 gives you what you need. Simple really.
For all you whiners who complain that this is "a sad attempt at getting us to upgrade to an intel machine", I ask you, what would be a "happy attempt" ? iLife is ALL about selling new hardware, plain and simple.
Um, perhaps if they used the intelligence god gave a rock, they'd
1) take a quick look at the features before laying down the $79.
2) decide if the overall feature set (for all products in the suite, not just iMovie) was worth it.
But that wouldn't be the 'Mac experience', would it? It would involve a touch of personal responsibility.
Allow me to rephrase then: Who would be happy about losing features in a product upgrade, whether or not he or she intends to upgrade? The point of an update is to evolve an application, not substitute it for something less powerful. Your argument is akin to this: Apple is about to release, let's say, a new shiny iMac (iLife '08) but then Steve Jobs confesses that it runs on a P4 (iMovie '08). "Smaller feature set, but simpler hardware. People like simple," Steve says. I'm currently running old hardware (iLife '06), eager to upgrade but then Steve makes this announcement. Am I a happy camper? Would you be?
Sure iMovie '06 is still out there, but how long will it be supported?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr O
Clive, get A Live!
? and get yourself to the next stage by ordering Final Cut Express at the online Apple store. Today!
I have FCE and it's tasty. The thing that isn't tasty is running it on a 800MHz G4 iMac... and it's also not tasty for simple projects. iMovie is (was) the champ at simple movies without major effects or editing. Now it litterally is just for YouTube-type projects.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacDuff
"But you can STILL use iMovie 06", people have said. While that's true -- and I will -- the fact that Apple has marginalized it within the iLife product matrix should be a concern for everyone who loves what iMovie used to do. Just how long will Apple support the REAL iMovie? Surely, Leopard will support it, but what about 10.6 down the road? How long will it be before iMovie 06 gets "broken"?
I share your concern. Apple is funnelling us into the FCE crowd, whether we like it or not... And FCE costs considerably more than iMovie. That's not a happy thing.
Like me, others watch Steve present the product, read a bunch and had the expectation that it was the same as the old iMovie plus all the new changes.
I don't mean to be rude, but how on earth could you have watched Steve introduce the new iMovie, with his story of the developer going and making a NEW method to create movies, with the NEW icon to show that it's a completely NEW programme?
Steve explicitly said that iMovie '08 is completely different from iMovie HD!
Admittedly, I can't see the website making mention of the re-write.
Allow me to rephrase then: Who would be happy about losing features in a product upgrade, whether or not he or she intends to upgrade? The point of an update is to evolve an application, not substitute it for something less powerful.
It's considerably more powerful. Find me a video editing suite that can make a movie as fast as iMovie '08 can, with titles and transitions. As for needing new hardware to run the thing, you don't. I'm quite happily running it on a G5 iMac that doesn't meet the system requirements. I doubt it will run that well on a G4, but a G5, it'll run beautifully. You cannot expect aging systems to run that latest software. By that argument I should be cross that my Mac SE doesn't run it!
I share your concern. Apple is funnelling us into the FCE crowd, whether we like it or not... And FCE costs considerably more than iMovie. That's not a happy thing.
-Clive
And allow me to offer an olive branch. Must be cranky this morning. \
I just get frustrated at the gift-horse-ism I sometimes see. iLife at its worst is miles ahead of anything in the Wintel world, and it seems like a lot of people want professional software for free. iLife is a really nice teaser app that's virtually free (by software cost standards.
what's the big deal? apple still lets you download imovie 06 if you don't like 08.
the fact is, imovie may be too hard for some people. now it is unfortunate that imovie had to lose features, but don't you think that with a few tweaks and additions that imovie 08 could have potential to be a better program than 06?
if you're buying ilife 08, use the old version of imovie, and use the rest of the great apps.
meanwhile, apple has already gotten the complaints, and they do listen. that's why they let ilife 08 users download the old version of imovie.
I do, however, think that Apple will start to win back their faithfuls (the prosumers & hobbyists) by (eventually) releasing a mid-range tower and (eventually) releasing a media-editing suite for us: FC Express, Logic Express, "Apeture Express", "DVD Studio Express." That would be the best-case scenario, of course, and obviously wouldn't ship with any Mac. Ergo, I'm going to have to pay extra for what I didn't have to pay for before.
I think that's why a lot of folks here are upset.
Out of curiosity, are we mostly prosumers/pros here? Do you think Apple might put out a mid-range suite? I find it awfully fishy that Apple has basically abandoned the prosumer for so long...
WHY DON'T YOU LOVE US, STEVE?!?!
-Clive
* - Disclaimer: This statement pertains to non-pro, non-prosumer, non-gamer, PC users.
Clive, your dream (and mine) of a prosumer tower died a final, last-nail-in-the-coffin, death when the aluminum iMacs were introduced. Steve said "it's an all in one world". I am convinced that Steve only sees two target markets for Macs: consumers with limited talent but lots of money, and pro content producers. The former group supposedly want appliances and the latter huge configurable towers.
Unfortunately for Steve's vision of what people want, the knowledge and skills of the consumer class are rising daily. This is most noticeable in the desktop market where the name brands are all losing market share to the so-called white boxes, computers assembled by end users or small shops using individually sourced parts. While the initial internet boom helped companies like Dell grow rapidly, the growth of blogs and technical forums has hurt the big manufacturers who tend to use "mystery" motherboards and special OEM Windows discs that rarely work if you've made even the slightest upgrade or repair to a PC.
It's considerably more powerful. Find me a video editing suite that can make a movie as fast as iMovie '08 can, with titles and transitions. As for needing new hardware to run the thing, you don't. I'm quite happily running it on a G5 iMac that doesn't meet the system requirements. I doubt it will run that well on a G4, but a G5, it'll run beautifully. You cannot expect aging systems to run that latest software. By that argument I should be cross that my Mac SE doesn't run it!
Oh, I'm not upset that my ancient G4 won't run it. It won't run most things, and I've gotten over it... the thing doesn't even have USB2 for crying out loud. Once I had to transfer everything to my 40 GB iPod via USB because I thought I had lost my Firewire cable. It took half a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB
And allow me to offer an olive branch. Must be cranky this morning. \
I just get frustrated at the gift-horse-ism I sometimes see. iLife at its worst is miles ahead of anything in the Wintel world, and it seems like a lot of people want professional software for free. iLife is a really nice teaser app that's virtually free (by software cost standards.
-Namaste.
Olive branch? That was more like a burning bush. Let me repeat what you said to me in analogy form.
Okay, so maybe you're a spoiled kid, but your parents (Apple) like to give you nice stuff. Say they make you a deal and say, "as long as you are our son/daughter (use OS X) we'll give you a Lexus. In the future, if you want to upgrade, we'll let you do it for $5000. Okay, maybe not a Lexus. Let's say an Audi. Still nice, but not top of the line or anything. So your parents offer you an Audi for $5000. Routinely they did this for several years until one year they said, "Son/Daughter, how's about your parents give you a real great treat: Here's a brand shiny new Ford Focus... Only $5000." Tell me you wouldn't be a little pissed off! I'd be like "F-You! You might be the best most generous parents to ever exist but I'm still pissed that our old deal has just gone to s**t."
Olive branch? That was more like a burning bush. Let me repeat what you said to me in analogy form.
Do I not have a valid point here?
-Clive
And the part of all this that's not solved by, oh say, sticking with iMovie 6 is precisely what?
Within 2 revs iMovie 8 will be on-par or superior. At least that' my experience.
But I will grant you that I'd be disappointed if the path of progression so quickly left pre-intel users out in the cold. I'll have to see to what degree that's true.
In any event, I certainly found the burning bush reference entertaining. I've never been included in a reference to either Moses or God.
Clive, your dream (and mine) of a prosumer tower died a final, last-nail-in-the-coffin, death when the aluminum iMacs were introduced. Steve said "it's an all in one world". I am convinced that Steve only sees two target markets for Macs: consumers with limited talent but lots of money, and pro content producers. The former group supposedly want appliances and the latter huge configurable towers.
I hope that you are incorrect. Or that Steve will realize (as you state in your second paragraph) that there are some pretty smart consumers out there who like to dabble in pro-type stuff every once in a while.
Ok, there are some missing features in the new iMovie. And yes, it did infuriate me. However, as a software developer myself, I understand that when you create a brand new platform sometimes you either forget features or certain features need more reworking in the new model.
Personally, I think the audio envelope (if that is what it is called) is one of those "Crap, we missed that!!" features that everyone (myself included) is complaining about. Hopefully they have the iMovie team working on restoring those features.
I will say that the whole "Use iMovie 6" stuff is complete bullocks. There are some things I can understand not making it (different types of effects and whatnot). Yet there are some that baffle me as to why they didn't make it (changing the length of a transition, audio envelope).
I am hoping for a 7.1 release here soon. I just wish Apple would say to everyone, "Yes, we heard you, and yes we are working on those missing features".
I hate when people defend products that don't have as much functionality as they could by saying they are 'consumer' products. Same for the iMac. The whole revolution of personal computers and the internet has been to blur that distinction. Why should anyone have to pay over $2,000 to run professional applications? All kinds of freelance professionals (one of apple's biggest audiences) just need a capable desktop or laptop to do their work.
And as far as iMovie goes, it was never complicated in the first place. 10 year old kids know how to use it. If they wanted to make it simpler it should have been a separate mode as was mentioned before.
I have always thought one of the best things about switching from a pc to a mac was all the professional quality programs that came with the systems. I really hope they don't try to dumb down their 'nonprofessional' lines; it would really be a shame.
Personally, I think the audio envelope (if that is what it is called) is one of those "Crap, we missed that!!" features that everyone (myself included) is complaining about.
You can change the length of a transition.
[QUOTE=Clive At Five]
...we'll give you a Lexus. In the future, if you want to upgrade, we'll let you do it for $5000. Okay, maybe not a Lexus. Let's say an Audi.
{/QUOTE]
I'd rather have the AUDI, over a posh Toyota.
[QUOTE=suhail]
These are very serious issues, especially the lack of compatibility with G4's.
[QUOTE]
G4 compatibility is not a serious issue, or can I complain that my G3 iBook and Mac SE can't run it?! Why should Apple shunt software programme, for a few people (alright, maybe not that few in the case of G4's) running legacy hardware? Want to use old hardware, make do with old software.
Comments
They will release iMovie 8.5 with the missing features, I am sure they will!
They didn't "delete" the features; this is a new platform. They simply have not "added" 6 gens of features back into the new platform yet.
Relax.
And it would be laughed out of court. Apple is under absolutely no obligation to stick to the iMovie HD code base. They can release and discontinue products as they please, unless they're under contract to do otherwise. People really do throw around the word "lawsuit" way too much these days.
I do think Apple would be wise to lower the price of Final Cut Express though, for those iMovie HD users who are seeking some sort of upgrade path.
You missed the point, it not because of the change, it about lack of disclosure. Whether you or I agree, it is pretty obvious Apple at no time said the iMovie 08 (notice the same name as the previous version) did not have the same features of the previous version. Like me, others watch Steve present the product, read a bunch and had the expectation that it was the same as the old iMovie plus all the new changes.
This is a point that I grant you others will make and the lack of disclosure on apple part that the new program was in fact missing features form previous version will be the issue. If they changed more then the icon then I agree with you. This is the point many others are also making, they should have changed the name.
Trust me, I will not join in the suit since I am fairly happy and I do not use imovie that much so I got it for other reasons.
It sounds like Apple knows iMovie 8 is short on features.
They will release iMovie 8.5 with the missing features, I am sure they will!
They didn't "delete" the features; this is a new platform. They simply have not "added" 6 gens of features back into the new platform yet.
Relax.
No one has ANY idea as to Apple's plans. Unless you're Steve Jobs, this includes you.
The iMovie '08 interface should have been a quick mode built on top of iMovie.
They couldn't do that, the complete core of the application has changed, and has had to change to give the improved speed of the application. If you don't like it, don't use and wait to see if version 2 gives you what you need. Simple really.
Um, perhaps if they used the intelligence god gave a rock, they'd
1) take a quick look at the features before laying down the $79.
2) decide if the overall feature set (for all products in the suite, not just iMovie) was worth it.
But that wouldn't be the 'Mac experience', would it? It would involve a touch of personal responsibility.
Allow me to rephrase then: Who would be happy about losing features in a product upgrade, whether or not he or she intends to upgrade? The point of an update is to evolve an application, not substitute it for something less powerful. Your argument is akin to this: Apple is about to release, let's say, a new shiny iMac (iLife '08) but then Steve Jobs confesses that it runs on a P4 (iMovie '08). "Smaller feature set, but simpler hardware. People like simple," Steve says. I'm currently running old hardware (iLife '06), eager to upgrade but then Steve makes this announcement. Am I a happy camper? Would you be?
Sure iMovie '06 is still out there, but how long will it be supported?
Clive, get A Live!
? and get yourself to the next stage by ordering Final Cut Express at the online Apple store. Today!
I have FCE and it's tasty. The thing that isn't tasty is running it on a 800MHz G4 iMac... and it's also not tasty for simple projects. iMovie is (was) the champ at simple movies without major effects or editing. Now it litterally is just for YouTube-type projects.
"But you can STILL use iMovie 06", people have said. While that's true -- and I will -- the fact that Apple has marginalized it within the iLife product matrix should be a concern for everyone who loves what iMovie used to do. Just how long will Apple support the REAL iMovie? Surely, Leopard will support it, but what about 10.6 down the road? How long will it be before iMovie 06 gets "broken"?
I share your concern. Apple is funnelling us into the FCE crowd, whether we like it or not... And FCE costs considerably more than iMovie. That's not a happy thing.
-Clive
Like me, others watch Steve present the product, read a bunch and had the expectation that it was the same as the old iMovie plus all the new changes.
I don't mean to be rude, but how on earth could you have watched Steve introduce the new iMovie, with his story of the developer going and making a NEW method to create movies, with the NEW icon to show that it's a completely NEW programme?
Steve explicitly said that iMovie '08 is completely different from iMovie HD!
Admittedly, I can't see the website making mention of the re-write.
Allow me to rephrase then: Who would be happy about losing features in a product upgrade, whether or not he or she intends to upgrade? The point of an update is to evolve an application, not substitute it for something less powerful.
It's considerably more powerful. Find me a video editing suite that can make a movie as fast as iMovie '08 can, with titles and transitions. As for needing new hardware to run the thing, you don't. I'm quite happily running it on a G5 iMac that doesn't meet the system requirements. I doubt it will run that well on a G4, but a G5, it'll run beautifully. You cannot expect aging systems to run that latest software. By that argument I should be cross that my Mac SE doesn't run it!
I share your concern. Apple is funnelling us into the FCE crowd, whether we like it or not... And FCE costs considerably more than iMovie. That's not a happy thing.
-Clive
And allow me to offer an olive branch. Must be cranky this morning.
I just get frustrated at the gift-horse-ism I sometimes see. iLife at its worst is miles ahead of anything in the Wintel world, and it seems like a lot of people want professional software for free. iLife is a really nice teaser app that's virtually free (by software cost standards.
-Namaste.
I would have to agree they really screwed up this time, I smell a lawsuit coming Apple's way. .
You can't sue someone for making a poor piece of software. If you could, our friends up in Washington state would be broke.
what's the big deal? apple still lets you download imovie 06 if you don't like 08.
the fact is, imovie may be too hard for some people. now it is unfortunate that imovie had to lose features, but don't you think that with a few tweaks and additions that imovie 08 could have potential to be a better program than 06?
if you're buying ilife 08, use the old version of imovie, and use the rest of the great apps.
meanwhile, apple has already gotten the complaints, and they do listen. that's why they let ilife 08 users download the old version of imovie.
you said it for me.
I do, however, think that Apple will start to win back their faithfuls (the prosumers & hobbyists) by (eventually) releasing a mid-range tower and (eventually) releasing a media-editing suite for us: FC Express, Logic Express, "Apeture Express", "DVD Studio Express." That would be the best-case scenario, of course, and obviously wouldn't ship with any Mac. Ergo, I'm going to have to pay extra for what I didn't have to pay for before.
I think that's why a lot of folks here are upset.
Out of curiosity, are we mostly prosumers/pros here? Do you think Apple might put out a mid-range suite? I find it awfully fishy that Apple has basically abandoned the prosumer for so long...
WHY DON'T YOU LOVE US, STEVE?!?!
-Clive
* - Disclaimer: This statement pertains to non-pro, non-prosumer, non-gamer, PC users.
Clive, your dream (and mine) of a prosumer tower died a final, last-nail-in-the-coffin, death when the aluminum iMacs were introduced. Steve said "it's an all in one world". I am convinced that Steve only sees two target markets for Macs: consumers with limited talent but lots of money, and pro content producers. The former group supposedly want appliances and the latter huge configurable towers.
Unfortunately for Steve's vision of what people want, the knowledge and skills of the consumer class are rising daily. This is most noticeable in the desktop market where the name brands are all losing market share to the so-called white boxes, computers assembled by end users or small shops using individually sourced parts. While the initial internet boom helped companies like Dell grow rapidly, the growth of blogs and technical forums has hurt the big manufacturers who tend to use "mystery" motherboards and special OEM Windows discs that rarely work if you've made even the slightest upgrade or repair to a PC.
It's considerably more powerful. Find me a video editing suite that can make a movie as fast as iMovie '08 can, with titles and transitions. As for needing new hardware to run the thing, you don't. I'm quite happily running it on a G5 iMac that doesn't meet the system requirements. I doubt it will run that well on a G4, but a G5, it'll run beautifully. You cannot expect aging systems to run that latest software. By that argument I should be cross that my Mac SE doesn't run it!
Oh, I'm not upset that my ancient G4 won't run it. It won't run most things, and I've gotten over it... the thing doesn't even have USB2 for crying out loud. Once I had to transfer everything to my 40 GB iPod via USB because I thought I had lost my Firewire cable. It took half a day.
And allow me to offer an olive branch. Must be cranky this morning.
I just get frustrated at the gift-horse-ism I sometimes see. iLife at its worst is miles ahead of anything in the Wintel world, and it seems like a lot of people want professional software for free. iLife is a really nice teaser app that's virtually free (by software cost standards.
-Namaste.
Olive branch? That was more like a burning bush. Let me repeat what you said to me in analogy form.
Okay, so maybe you're a spoiled kid, but your parents (Apple) like to give you nice stuff. Say they make you a deal and say, "as long as you are our son/daughter (use OS X) we'll give you a Lexus. In the future, if you want to upgrade, we'll let you do it for $5000. Okay, maybe not a Lexus. Let's say an Audi. Still nice, but not top of the line or anything. So your parents offer you an Audi for $5000. Routinely they did this for several years until one year they said, "Son/Daughter, how's about your parents give you a real great treat: Here's a brand shiny new Ford Focus... Only $5000." Tell me you wouldn't be a little pissed off! I'd be like "F-You! You might be the best most generous parents to ever exist but I'm still pissed that our old deal has just gone to s**t."
Do I not have a valid point here?
-Clive
Olive branch? That was more like a burning bush. Let me repeat what you said to me in analogy form.
Do I not have a valid point here?
-Clive
And the part of all this that's not solved by, oh say, sticking with iMovie 6 is precisely what?
Within 2 revs iMovie 8 will be on-par or superior. At least that' my experience.
But I will grant you that I'd be disappointed if the path of progression so quickly left pre-intel users out in the cold. I'll have to see to what degree that's true.
In any event, I certainly found the burning bush reference entertaining. I've never been included in a reference to either Moses or God.
Clive, your dream (and mine) of a prosumer tower died a final, last-nail-in-the-coffin, death when the aluminum iMacs were introduced. Steve said "it's an all in one world". I am convinced that Steve only sees two target markets for Macs: consumers with limited talent but lots of money, and pro content producers. The former group supposedly want appliances and the latter huge configurable towers.
I hope that you are incorrect. Or that Steve will realize (as you state in your second paragraph) that there are some pretty smart consumers out there who like to dabble in pro-type stuff every once in a while.
-Clive
Personally, I think the audio envelope (if that is what it is called) is one of those "Crap, we missed that!!" features that everyone (myself included) is complaining about. Hopefully they have the iMovie team working on restoring those features.
I will say that the whole "Use iMovie 6" stuff is complete bullocks. There are some things I can understand not making it (different types of effects and whatnot). Yet there are some that baffle me as to why they didn't make it (changing the length of a transition, audio envelope).
I am hoping for a 7.1 release here soon. I just wish Apple would say to everyone, "Yes, we heard you, and yes we are working on those missing features".
Sometimes a little disclosure goes a long way.
And as far as iMovie goes, it was never complicated in the first place. 10 year old kids know how to use it. If they wanted to make it simpler it should have been a separate mode as was mentioned before.
I have always thought one of the best things about switching from a pc to a mac was all the professional quality programs that came with the systems. I really hope they don't try to dumb down their 'nonprofessional' lines; it would really be a shame.
Only Jobs has the balls to pull such stunts on his users, I wonder where he's going with this.
Personally, I think the audio envelope (if that is what it is called) is one of those "Crap, we missed that!!" features that everyone (myself included) is complaining about.
You can change the length of a transition.
[QUOTE=Clive At Five]
...we'll give you a Lexus. In the future, if you want to upgrade, we'll let you do it for $5000. Okay, maybe not a Lexus. Let's say an Audi.
{/QUOTE]
I'd rather have the AUDI, over a posh Toyota.
[QUOTE=suhail]
These are very serious issues, especially the lack of compatibility with G4's.
[QUOTE]
G4 compatibility is not a serious issue, or can I complain that my G3 iBook and Mac SE can't run it?! Why should Apple shunt software programme, for a few people (alright, maybe not that few in the case of G4's) running legacy hardware? Want to use old hardware, make do with old software.