The Wii: does it do it for you? How much longer until it's passed by?

1356789

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 164
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by giant View Post


    This view about Nintendo's target market is pretty strange considering the fact that the wii is notable for being so heavily marketed toward much older demographics than either the xbox or the ps3, going so far as to include high-profile marketing campaigns directed at seniors. And the virtual console? Nostalgia, aka, older gamers. Simply put, the wii has much broader (including older) target markets than either the ps3 or the xbox.



    Isn't it obvious by the popular titles on each platform.



    Wii- super Mario series



    xbox 360- Halo series



    PS3-? Resistance Fall of Man



    Just how many younger adults and hard core gamers play super mario brothers?
  • Reply 42 of 164
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    I don't think the market has split. I think a very loud and narrow interest group has declared they deserve the attention and development and now when it is time for the dollars to arrive, there aren't enough to go around. Between Battlefield, COD, Unreal, Quake Engine games, Valve, and Medal of Honor (just to name a few) exactly how many people do I need to kill with a gun? It is oversupply and lack of demand. Great graphics cannot overcome that.



    Nick



    You may not like first person shooter games but did you see how many games Halo 3 sold when it came out?



    Don't forget the online community surrounding these paltforms(360 and ps3) either. Very popular and likely a profit center one day. At least for MS.
  • Reply 43 of 164
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    You may not like first person shooter games but did you see how many games Halo 3 sold when it came out?



    Don't forget the online community surrounding these paltforms(360 and ps3) either. Very popular and likely a profit center one day. At least for MS.



    It isn't a profit center until it makes money. Microsoft had Halo 1 & 2 in the first round, lost $4 billion and barely sold more consoles than Nintendo. They haven't made a dime yet this round let alone recovered the losses from the previous round.



    The better question to ask is what does it say about a market niche where it cannot gain mainstream acceptance except by means of dropping BILLIONS of losses on it?



    It says that even at almost 6 million, the market segment is too narrow, or the experience isn't good enough to stand on it's own unless it is subsidized at a loss.



    Nick
  • Reply 44 of 164
    shawnjshawnj Posts: 6,656member
    Call of Duty 2 is like the best game ever.



    I've played nothing but that for at least 2 yrs lol.
  • Reply 45 of 164
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    It isn't a profit center until it makes money. Microsoft had Halo 1 & 2 in the first round, lost $4 billion and barely sold more consoles than Nintendo. They haven't made a dime yet this round let alone recovered the losses from the previous round.



    The better question to ask is what does it say about a market niche where it cannot gain mainstream acceptance except by means of dropping BILLIONS of losses on it?



    It says that even at almost 6 million, the market segment is too narrow, or the experience isn't good enough to stand on it's own unless it is subsidized at a loss.



    Nick



    Don't confuse profitability with popularity.



    Sure MS and Sony haven't figured out how to make money off their systems, but they still have an avid fan-base.
  • Reply 46 of 164
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    Don't confuse profitability with popularity.



    Sure MS and Sony haven't figured out how to make money off their systems, but they still have an avid fan-base.



    I think you fail to realize the significance of those numbers. A loss of $4 billion means that Microsoft essentually GAVE each Xbox owner $160 to own the box and all the games they purchased with it. That is how much they lost after selling all the systems and receivng their cut off all the games.



    I mean how popular would anything be that gave you $160 to own it?



    Nick
  • Reply 47 of 164
    So you're saying I can go up to any games shop and they'll give me a free X-Box 360, a few games and $160 cash??? I don't think so. I think you mean that they subsidised each X-Box console and royalties for games to the value of $160 per console. You still have to fork out $400+ to get it and a few games.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    I think you fail to realize the significance of those numbers. A loss of $4 billion means that Microsoft essentually GAVE each Xbox owner $160 to own the box and all the games they purchased with it. That is how much they lost after selling all the systems and receivng their cut off all the games.



    I mean how popular would anything be that gave you $160 to own it?



    Nick



  • Reply 48 of 164
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Marvin:



    Quote:

    Didn't the PS3 outsell the Wii in Japan very recently?



    For a grand total of two weeks, after a full $100 price drop for the PS3. The Wii still sold more for the month. The PS3 has not outsold the Wii in any month since release.



    Quote:

    A hardcore gamer is defined by the games and usually the level of difficulty. Inexperienced gamers may at times play similar games to hardcore gamers but not in the same way (they tend to run and button bash) and Nintendo's games clearly reflect this with more simplistic controls. It takes a certain degree of experience to be able to take full advantage of a next-gen game and if you are the type of person who picks up a controller and gets killed within 5 minutes playing Call of Duty then you are not a hardcore gamer. The same goes if you just run through the street shooting roughly in the direction of what looks like an enemy.



    The only game I have played that I thought was truly difficult is the Ninja Gaiden series NES to present. What "hardcore" games are actually hard? It takes nuance and subtlety and experience to take "full advantage" (whatever that means) of even simplistic games like Wii Bowling.





    backtomac:



    Quote:

    Don't confuse profitability with popularity.



    Can I "confuse" number of units sold with popularity?
  • Reply 49 of 164
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,268moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Can you explain why a system claimed to appeal to everyone would sell to no one and why systems tailored to a narrow niche would sell blockbuster amounts?



    You could ask a similar question about the iMac. There are other factors to consider.



    Price is a big problem regarding the current console lineup. Who would pay £400 for a games machines? Very few people. Then drop down a bit to the XBox. Price is ok but reliability isn't and it's a really noisy machine too. That puts me off buying one. Then add in the price of the games at £40-50 each.



    The Wii only looks good relative to the flaws of the other consoles and it has a gimmick. The iMac has a gimmick of saving desk space. This appeals to people who don't care about lower spec hardware. The Wii has the Wii-mote, which appeals to people who don't care about lower spec hardware.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Between Battlefield, COD, Unreal, Quake Engine games, Valve, and Medal of Honor (just to name a few) exactly how many people do I need to kill with a gun? It is oversupply and lack of demand. Great graphics cannot overcome that.



    Well, you've just named a whole bunch of FPS games. There are also racing games, sports games and other genres. How many times do you need to play as Mario or Luigi?



    FPS games also have different styles of gameplay. Splinter Cell emphasizes stealth (avoiding combat) with night and heat vision, Call of Duty is a war simulation so requires more tactical offensive maneuvers. They have different weapons and different environments. Socom Tactical Strike has completely different gameplay mechanics again with squad based commands where you have a team of people with different abilities. It's wrong to lump all of these games together and suggest they have any degree of redundancy between them.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat


    For a grand total of two weeks, after a full $100 price drop for the PS3. The Wii still sold more for the month. The PS3 has not outsold the Wii in any month since release.



    But it's still evidence that there may be a shift in sales soon. The cut down PS3 (40GB, no PS2 support) is now only £300 whereas a Wii is £205 at least. I can see a big shift happening over Christmas. I think by the end of January, the PS3 will be outselling the Wii.
  • Reply 50 of 164
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Looks like I am still around.



    So anyways, Wii totally does not do it for me. I have my PC now playing nice graphics at 1280x1024, 4xAA or so, basically pretty stuff and smooth gameplay with.



    Unreal Tournament 3

    NeedForSpeed: ProStreet



    Before this: a lot of Sega Rally (fun!)

    You can't say no to a game that has a Sonic skin on a *rally* car.

    Plus that signature "Sega" Rock walls ala Daytona1 arcade.



    However, looks like my next PC upgrade in 6 months has to be

    to go up to 4GB RAM, quad core, dual nVidia 8900GT etc.

    AND I HAVE TO RUN VISTA FOR PRETTY DIRECTX10 STUFF.



    Time to call it quits on PC gaming. Around mid-2008.



    However in my country:

    1. PS3 games cost 3x more than PC games

    2. If you can find them

    3. XBOX360 is not officially sold here

    4. Only grey imports

    5. PS3 is not officially sold here

    6. Only grey imports

    7. See no.2 as relates to no.3



    In other words, Vista has to suck majorly less than it does now,

    PS3 has to officially be friggin sold in this bloody country

    PS3 games have to be down to about $100+ local currency

    like PC games (talking all original stuff here)



    Maybe a Wii 2?



    I just don't see it happening with console though.



    Particularly with Starcraft2. Teh best RTS everrr. Maybe.
  • Reply 51 of 164
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    ....Between Battlefield, COD, Unreal, Quake Engine games, Valve, and Medal of Honor (just to name a few) exactly how many people do I need to kill with a gun? It is oversupply and lack of demand. Great graphics cannot overcome that....



    Battlefield..COD..GhostRecon... I don't like "realistic" shooters.

    Quake4/Doom3 - don't like the engine

    Unreal Tournament 2004, UT3 -- great graphics, great AI, great gameplay

    bots are pretty good now, almost like real online play

    HL2: I liked the storyline and atmosphere of HL2 and HL2:Episode1

    I gave HL2:Ep2 a pass though.



    Even with shooters there is a distinction. Don't forget Crysis

    which tries to separate itself as the ultimate... etc... Hellgate London...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    Isn't it obvious by the popular titles on each platform.

    Wii- super Mario series

    xbox 360- Halo series

    PS3-? Resistance Fall of Man

    Just how many younger adults and hard core gamers play super mario brothers?



    Yeah, none of those titles interest me in the slightest.
  • Reply 52 of 164
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by s.metcalf View Post


    So you're saying I can go up to any games shop and they'll give me a free X-Box 360, a few games and $160 cash??? I don't think so. I think you mean that they subsidised each X-Box console and royalties for games to the value of $160 per console. You still have to fork out $400+ to get it and a few games.



    The point stands that items which need to be subsidized just to get out the door to make equal or the same numbers are not "better" by any objective measure.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    You could ask a similar question about the iMac. There are other factors to consider.



    Price is a big problem regarding the current console lineup. Who would pay £400 for a games machines? Very few people. Then drop down a bit to the XBox. Price is ok but reliability isn't and it's a really noisy machine too. That puts me off buying one. Then add in the price of the games at £40-50 each.



    The Wii only looks good relative to the flaws of the other consoles and it has a gimmick. The iMac has a gimmick of saving desk space. This appeals to people who don't care about lower spec hardware. The Wii has the Wii-mote, which appeals to people who don't care about lower spec hardware.



    Here's a hint. It isn't a "gimmick." It is a purchase consideration. You cite the example of the iMac. When I was growing up, computers were hugely expensive and so the family likely had one and they placed it in the computer room/office. In this day and age, we've run out of room. The computers are cheap and the living space is expensive. In that setting, buying a smaller computer versus paying more for living space is a key component of the purchase decision. It is certainly not a gimmick.



    As I noted with the previous post, to list ONLY graphics as a consideration for purchase and nothing else is not consistent with reality. Kids have to own these consoles. They may be used in bedrooms that are often 10'x10' or 10'x12' and perhaps shared with a sibling.



    I mean how can you see the number of LCD televisions and monitors being purchased and think of concepts like energy use, heat generation, space and noise as "gimmicks?" Every industry outside of the video console market is experiencing and adapting to the same set of variables. The iPod exists so people wouldn't have to carry or even purchase CD's. We are not wondering why DVD sales are down in an age of video on demand, video iPods/Apple TV/ and straight up internet streaming. Perhaps that movie industry is but the rest of us are not. I'm not going to have an armoire with a large tube television and hundreds of DVD's in it. I'll have a television as big as that cabinet or an LCD television sitting above my fireplace and let the hundreds of DVD's be reduced to a single hard drive.



    Finally no matter what you think about Wii, Xbox360, or PS3 they are all being beaten by the DS. Ultimately these same "gimmicks" portability, usability, low power use are winning no matter who applies them.



    In fact if anything we should really be thankful for the Apple's and Nintendo's right now. America always has this mentality of bigger, better and faster. Those aren't the only considerations in the world. I don't like it when government's dictate a solution but here the markets are rewarding companies for endorsing the right set of priorities.



    Nick
  • Reply 53 of 164
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    All video games are gimmicks. That's why we like them.



    Marvin:



    Quote:

    But it's still evidence that there may be a shift in sales soon.



    "The sun will come out tomorrow! Bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow there'll be suuuun!"



    Quote:

    I can see a big shift happening over Christmas. I think by the end of January, the PS3 will be outselling the Wii.



    I think you're wrong, but that's a fairly easy prediction on my part.



    Quote:

    It's wrong to lump all of these games together and suggest they have any degree of redundancy between them.



    Do you feel it is "right" to lump Nintendo games together and suggest they have any degree of redundancy between them?
  • Reply 54 of 164
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,268moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    TWhen I was growing up, computers were hugely expensive and so the family likely had one and they placed it in the computer room/office. In this day and age, we've run out of room. The computers are cheap and the living space is expensive. In that setting, buying a smaller computer versus paying more for living space is a key component of the purchase decision. It is certainly not a gimmick.



    Let's count how many people have these huge towers that we used to use. That's right, still over 90% of the world. Guess they are all living in massive houses that they can afford to dedicate such a huge portion of living space to their computer.



    Or...



    maybe the saving isn't really all that much.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    As I noted with the previous post, to list ONLY graphics as a consideration for purchase and nothing else is not consistent with reality. Kids have to own these consoles. They may be used in bedrooms that are often 10'x10' or 10'x12' and perhaps shared with a sibling.



    So why on earth would anyone invent a system that involves waving the controller around? That's just abusing living space that isn't available. Those poor kids with a Wii must be getting hit all the time with their friends swinging their arms around in these really cramped rooms.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    I mean how can you see the number of LCD televisions and monitors being purchased and think of concepts like energy use, heat generation, space and noise as "gimmicks?"



    Don't forget Global Warming. *cue scary music*



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Finally no matter what you think about Wii, Xbox360, or PS3 they are all being beaten by the DS. Ultimately these same "gimmicks" portability, usability, low power use are winning no matter who applies them.



    That doesn't really work. The DS is not beating all of them because it's not competing with all of them. Hi Mr salesman, I'd like to play Gears of War please. Oh come this way sir and have a look at all of our nice Nintendo DS machines. Not quite.



    What you are basically saying is that because the Macbook sells more than the Mac Pro, it is somehow winning. That doesn't make sense because they are not for the same target audience.



    The Nintendo sales depend a lot on Japan. There are a *lot* of people over there so the sales figures don't really tell the whole story. Plus Nintendo advertise a hell of a lot on TV. At least in the UK. They have all sorts of celebs like Nicole Kidman on there using some brain training. Then they have ads about the Wii-mote and then they have ads just before and after TV shows saying they've sponsored the show or something.



    So add Japan + gimmicks + insane levels of advertising and it's not hard to see why their products have had some success.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    In fact if anything we should really be thankful for the Apple's and Nintendo's right now. America always has this mentality of bigger, better and faster. Those aren't the only considerations in the world.



    You're right, to hell with value for money. Let's have smaller, slower products for the same or higher price. I don't need a whole turkey at Christmas, give me a leg but charge me the same please.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat


    All video games are gimmicks. That's why we like them.



    Gimmicks are fads that appeal to either a minority and/or for a short amount of time. Game franchises can last decades as Nintendo has proved.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat


    Do you feel it is "right" to lump Nintendo games together and suggest they have any degree of redundancy between them?



    No but I don't think anybody has. People have said that most of Nintendo's games are targeted at children or inexperienced gamers. That common ground is not redundancy that reduces the appeal of the individual games as was suggested of the FPS games. But what it does is reduce interest from a mature gaming market.



    Nintendo are the Disney of the gaming world. If you were to ask a group of twenty-something men what their favorite movie distributor was and they said Dimension Films and you said well what's wrong with Disney? They don't just make kids movies, they have a few titles for grown ups too. OAPs and heck even mums and dads like Disney movies so they clearly aren't just for kids. They'd be none to quick to hop on the Disney band-wagon.



    Ah but Disney are making a lot of money so they must be doing something right. Maybe we should all take a lesson from them and we should all be watching Disney movies. After all, they impose good morals on us just like the nice people at Apple and Nintendo about saving space and energy. What a clean, energy-efficient, happy, happy fun place the world would be if we just played along.
  • Reply 55 of 164
    iposteriposter Posts: 1,560member
    What turns a person like myself off on the PS3/360 is the $1000+ 'HDTV Premium' that you have to tack on to the price of the console.



    In other words, to fully enjoy the hawt graphics on those consoles, you need an HDTV. I don't own one, and granted prices are dropping like mad, but generally on smallish 720 screens, which aren't future proof at this point. So I don't see myself affording a decent sized, 1080 screen anytime soon.



    HDTV penetration apparently isn't all that high yet in any case, depending on the source:



    Quote:

    Nielsen found that only 13.7% of TV households in the United States -- or roughly 15.5 million out of 112.8 million total U.S. TV households -- are equipped with HD televisions and HD tuners capable of receiving HDTV signals, a status Nielsen described as ?HD Capable.?



    That 13.7% figure is much lower than research from the Consumer Electronics Association, the trade group representing HDTV-set manufacturers. The CEA estimated that HDTV household penetration in July 2007 stood at 32% -- or some 36 million homes, going by Nielsen?s household numbers -- and would rise to 36% by year-end. The CEA put the total number of HDTV sets sold by year-end 2006 at 39.9 million, climbing to 60.6 million by the end of this year, and it said one-third of HD households own multiple sets



  • Reply 56 of 164
    Let me use my statistic skillz.



    Kids that play video games is a market. Mostly all kids play video games these days. Minors are 25% of the US population.



    The "hardcore gamer" I guess are the number of US adults that have enough time to play video games i.e. people that are unemployed. The unemployment rate is 5% of the labor force, which is less than the 4% of the US population.



    This means that the kids market is at least 5 times greater than the hardcore gamer market.



    (you have also to include in the hardcore gamer market the percentage of these gamers that are "not hardcore enough" to have money to pay for a console lol)



    If I were a game developer, I'd surely develop for the children!
  • Reply 57 of 164
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post




    backtomac:

    Can I "confuse" number of units sold with popularity?



    I don't know. Can you?



    Really I think we agree more than we disagree. If you read my replies you see that I think the Wii is a viable platform for the long run.



    I don't think that all the people who play Halo though are rushing out to get a Wii. Its not meant to be insulting to say that the Wii appeals to younger and newer gamers. That's just the reality of things. This was apparently an untapped market until the Wii came along.
  • Reply 58 of 164
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    I think you fail to realize the significance of those numbers. A loss of $4 billion means that Microsoft essentually GAVE each Xbox owner $160 to own the box and all the games they purchased with it. That is how much they lost after selling all the systems and receivng their cut off all the games.



    I mean how popular would anything be that gave you $160 to own it?



    Nick



    As I understand it, the 360 would have begun to be profitable this year until MS had to set aside around 2 billion to cover hardware failures on the 360.



    Looks like the 360 may not ever reach profitability. I wouldn't count them out for the next generation though. They've put a hurtin' on Sony and who knows if they can keep going.
  • Reply 59 of 164
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,268moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPoster View Post


    In other words, to fully enjoy the hawt graphics on those consoles, you need an HDTV.



    No you don't. That's like saying to enjoy a film you need to watch it in HD. The PS3 and 360 advantages are the shader effects, scene complexities, texture quality etc and all this shows through on an SD display. HD is better but far from necessary.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by soulcrusher


    The "hardcore gamer" I guess are the number of US adults that have enough time to play video games i.e. people that are unemployed. The unemployment rate is 5% of the labor force, which is less than the 4% of the US population.



    Nope, hardcore doesn't necessarily mean you play games a lot. Anyway, working single guys in their twenties have evenings and weekends (lots of hours to kill). But I will agree that kids are more into games than adults.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by soulcrusher


    If I were a game developer, I'd surely develop for the children!



    The only issue with that is a lot of developers don't like making kids games. I knew people at uni who wanted to develop games and they'd never even consider making a kids game in a million years. If a rock band only had a small group of fans but a kids sing-a-long group was on a sell-out tour, you're telling me you'd suggest the rock band follow the same route?



    Does it really matter that these companies make a loss? If they gain market share and mind share then that's a valuable thing. Not only that, how much do M$ make with their online services? How much will Sony make by establishing Blu-Ray as *the* next media format of choice for HD video first and then storage? Their current losses can easily pay off in the long term.
  • Reply 60 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    You do realize that you are taking the information, ratings and current rankings and drawing all the exact opposite conclusions with them that reality would dictate. Can you explain why a system claimed to appeal to everyone would sell to no one and why systems tailored to a narrow niche would sell blockbuster amounts?



    This is when you have to take off the swirly glasses and read all the news. The hard data here are both the success of Guitar Hero type games and Japanese market trends as of last month, although neither of you are actually concerned with hard data so perhaps I'm wasting my time. My "weak logic" [Grove] that the rampant success of Guitar Hero will lead to integration of custom controllers in other games, of course, means nothing.



    That is the gimmick of the Wii, is it not? A unique controller? Otherwise, the Wii's games are complete rehash. I give Nintendo all the credit they deserve for being clever and daring enough to make a good product out of the motion controller, but that is ALL the Wii has, and it's an advantage that we are seeing to be short lived. If that is somehow counter-intuitive to you, there's nothing I can do to spell it out more simply. I'm out there saying "Other developers will find success in Harmonix's footsteps" and you're saying "no." I assume that neither of you are investors.
Sign In or Register to comment.