The Wii: does it do it for you? How much longer until it's passed by?

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  • Reply 61 of 164
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,464member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by backtomac View Post


    As I understand it, the 360 would have begun to be profitable this year until MS had to set aside around 2 billion to cover hardware failures on the 360.



    Looks like the 360 may not ever reach profitability. I wouldn't count them out for the next generation though. They've put a hurtin' on Sony and who knows if they can keep going.



    Profitable as in no longer losing any additional money or profitable as in having made up all the previously declared losses? I suspect it is the former and not the latter. However even as you said, the point is moot now because of reliability issues.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Splinemodel View Post


    This is when you have to take off the swirly glasses and read all the news. The hard data here are both the success of Guitar Hero type games and Japanese market trends as of last month, although neither of you are actually concerned with hard data so perhaps I'm wasting my time. My "weak logic" [Grove] that the rampant success of Guitar Hero will lead to integration of custom controllers in other games, of course, means nothing.



    That is the gimmick of the Wii, is it not? A unique controller? Otherwise, the Wii's games are complete rehash. I give Nintendo all the credit they deserve for being clever and daring enough to make a good product out of the motion controller, but that is ALL the Wii has, and it's an advantage that we are seeing to be short lived. If that is somehow counter-intuitive to you, there's nothing I can do to spell it out more simply. I'm out there saying "Other developers will find success in Harmonix's footsteps" and you're saying "no." I assume that neither of you are investors.



    I assure you I read plenty of news. It isn't news of the gaming review variety but of who is making money and moving units variety. The trend for Japan in the last month has PS3 doing better, but Wii coming back and taking the lead again. For the last year Wii has won 50 out of 53 weeks. You do not use an exception or outlier to prove the rule. Now let us look at your second contention, that people will spend money on custom controllers. Let us say you are right. What this does though is show that the Wii is actually going to win this round because people feel that a controller that goes beyond control pads and buttons adds enough value to make a purchase. You and others call this a gimmick but it others call it value added.



    If we were investors (which I am) I would not bet on the current strategy of Microsoft or Sony.



    Nick
  • Reply 62 of 164
    Okay, so i've read almost all the posts, and all the debates, and this is what i have to say as a gamer for about 11 years ( since i was 7 ). I started of with the NES, loved mario, and bomber man, and of course, who could forget, duck hunt!. I loved these games as a kid, but of course i evolved and got tired of playing mario for such a long time. Then i moved on to the sega genesis. I got into mortal combat and street fighter, more violent fighting games, loved it.



    After getting tired of sonic and all those other games, i got the best thing, the n64. The only shooting games that i remember for it are the james bond games, besides that there was nothing. I ended up getting bored with it and later got a game boy. The game boy kicked ass. Pokemon was by far the most played game i had. But of course, i grew tired and that's when i got into better things.



    Now i have the x box. I got rainbow six three and fell in love with the realistic shooter. I just simply loved it. Halo 1 and 2 were simply amazing as well.



    Last year my xbox died on me and a few weeks ago i replaced it with the 360 and cod4. Best freaking shooter i have ever played. I love the intensity, and just love playing it period.



    So basically, as a kid i was more into the nintendo games. Children games. Then i got a bit more mature ( not much ) and got into bigger and better things.



    In my opinion, the most childish is the wii. i mean common, i've played all the wii sports and it made me feel homosexual. The graphics are terrible and for gods sake, you don't even know if you're putting the game in right because there's no drive that pops out. The sensor is also terribly made. I was playing wii boxing and it sucked hard core.



    After the wii, and past nintendo concils, you come to playstation and sony. The games are much more mature, more violence, blood, fun etc... but aren't really my taste



    and finally, in my opinion, the most mature would be the 360. The best shooters are on the 360, and let's face it, there's more shooters and fun stuff a like on the 360 than on the playstation.



    Of course whether the 360 or ps3 is more mature is up for debate, true gamers know that the wii is for children, or for people who want to lose weight from wii boxing! D:
  • Reply 63 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iPoster View Post


    What turns a person like myself off on the PS3/360 is the $1000+ 'HDTV Premium' that you have to tack on to the price of the console.



    In other words, to fully enjoy the hawt graphics on those consoles, you need an HDTV. I don't own one, and granted prices are dropping like mad, but generally on smallish 720 screens, which aren't future proof at this point. So I don't see myself affording a decent sized, 1080 screen anytime soon.



    HDTV penetration apparently isn't all that high yet in any case, depending on the source:



    Yes thank you. I actually forgot about the HDTV for a while...



    I now have to weigh a 4gb Core2Quad 2.66ghz dual 8800GT 512mb (each) Vista DirectX against:



    PS3

    32" LCD HDTV

    PS3 games

    Some SatelliteTV (no cable) connection to make use of the HDTV

    BluRays to make use of HDTV

    Mac Mini/ AppleTV



    It will mark my personal complete stopping of using PCs at this point



    Luckily I have until mid-2008 to decide.



    Interestingly, with such a powerful machine, my 17" computer LCD

    at 1280x1024 won't cut it.



    I need to be looking at 20" widescreen 1600x1200...



    So, decisions decisions. That's what marketers are salivating over.



    The 15-35 year olds (male), that are ready to hit the more

    premium end of gaming, but could go both ways, either HiDefConsole

    or PerformanceOverclockedPC.



    That's the way I am seeing things right now.



    WHERE THE HELL ARE THOSE SED Displays?

    Man, talk about vapourware.
  • Reply 64 of 164
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    You know I was going to go and look up stats on how much money the PS1 made for Sony and how much money the PS2 made for Sony but read the following posts and decided nah. The other side isn't interested in any sort of discussion or data.



    If you can't even agree that there is such a thing as a hardcore market vs a casual market there there is no common basis of understanding for debate. If you can't accept when Nintendo effectively says "yeah...its just an updated GC" then you aren't open to new information no matter how good the source.



    The undisputed fact is that both the 360 and PS3 are getting new games that (the disputed) hard core gamers have been waiting for. Halo 3, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, etc. This means that both platforms are going to be much more desired this XMas than last. With MGS4, Killzone 2, and Little Big Planet due for the PS3 it should do better in 2008 than 2007. Given the Wii is still hardware constrained there's no reason to expect that both the 360 and the PS3 won't do better relative to the Wii this Xmas.



    Oh, only from memory and no links, I recall that the PS2 breakeven on R&D was 20M units. We all know that they exceeded that. Ergo the PS2 was a money maker for Sony and profitable from nearly the beginning. The PS1 was marketed toward the older demographic vs Nintendo from day 1 and there has always been a higher emphasis on the "hardcore" gamer. That means typically male, typically from mid-teen to early adult.



    Therefore there is an assload of money to be made on the hardcore market based on data from the past. That MS followed the Sega model doesn't mean that the hardcore market is not profitable. It just means that MS as a ton of money to spend in what it thinks are strategic areas they want to dominate.



    And yes, the Wii appeals to the casual gamer which is dominated by females over 30*. Casual games is a multi-billion dollar business (a likely bigger assload than the hardcore market) and Wii is the only console really tapped into that market and actively marketing for it and not the hardcore market.



    This will change since MS will move in this area and so will Sony. MS has shown the willingness to dump tons of money into the console market and they wont ignore Nintendo's success as another battlefront against Sony. MS want's to own the set top as much as it owns the desk top. Sony is a potential threat (with Linux) but Nintendo isn't at all.



    Oh, yeah and as for Giant...yes, Nintendo is skewed for the kid demographics and the ESRB ratings show that. Are you going to also complain that just because Disney makes a lot of G and a few PG movies that they aren't also skewed toward the kid demographic?



    When I say mature I mean games deplicting killing people. That some parents let their younger kids play violent games rated M doesn't anything more than some parents letting their younger kids watch R rated movies. Neither M games or R movies are made for the kid demographic. Nintendo and Disney play to the same market. Disney is big enough that it has other studios that do more mature themes under a different label. Nintendo does not and doesn't have a platform all that capable of serving that market anyway.



    V



    * 60-70% of the casual game download market is females over 30.
  • Reply 65 of 164
    groveratgroverat Posts: 10,872member
    Marvin:



    Quote:

    People have said that most of Nintendo's games are targeted at children or inexperienced gamers. That common ground is not redundancy that reduces the appeal of the individual games as was suggested of the FPS games. But what it does is reduce interest from a mature gaming market.



    Wait wait wait… FPS games are not targeted at children and inexperienced gamers? I really think you're fooling yourself. FPS games are aimed at 11+. Little kids love Halo.



    I would bet that Wii owners are actually older, on average, than Xbox360/PS3 owners.



    Quote:

    Nintendo are the Disney of the gaming world. If you were to ask a group of twenty-something men what their favorite movie distributor was and they said Dimension Films and you said well what's wrong with Disney? They don't just make kids movies, they have a few titles for grown ups too. OAPs and heck even mums and dads like Disney movies so they clearly aren't just for kids. They'd be none to quick to hop on the Disney band-wagon.



    This analogy is absurd. If this were the case, why are there so many people who like the games? It is not just children. (I won't be so delusional as to call any gamer "mature".)



    Quote:

    What a clean, energy-efficient, happy, happy fun place the world would be if we just played along.



    So buying game products from Sony and Microsoft is now a way to rage against the machine?





    backtomac:



    Quote:

    I don't think that all the people who play Halo though are rushing out to get a Wii. Its not meant to be insulting to say that the Wii appeals to younger and newer gamers. That's just the reality of things. This was apparently an untapped market until the Wii came along.



    I think the mistake in your logic is the assumption that Halo is meant for "experienced gamers" anymore than Mario games are. I think that's a massive falsehood.



    I think the real sticking point here is the desire of one group to feel like their video games are something adult and mature, when in reality it's just a different form of Mario. I am perfectly willing to laugh at myself for staying up late at night playing Super Mario Galaxy, I have no need to delude myself into thinking it is not, in some respects, a childish waste of time.







    Splinemodel:



    Your logic is weak. Rock Band is not the first popular game to command a premium for associated peripherals. We have no example of a late-coming control device spreading across multiple games with big sales. The next one we see will be the first. The weakness in your logic is taking a remote possibility and assuming it is the Next Big Thing.



    Quote:

    That is the gimmick of the Wii, is it not? A unique controller? Otherwise, the Wii's games are complete rehash.



    The Xbox 360 and PS3 are not complete rehashes? What popular game for these systems lacks a number after its title?

    Halo 3? Oh wait….

    Gran Turismo 5? Oh wait…

    GTA 4? Oh wait…

    Killzone 2? Oh wait…

    Metal Gear Solid 4? Oh wait…

    Madden 2008? Oh wait…



    Quote:

    I'm out there saying "Other developers will find success in Harmonix's footsteps" and you're saying "no."



    Other developers might very well find success in that way, as developers did before Harmonix. Where your logic falls apart is translating that into some ill omen for Nintendo.







    Rich-Myster:



    Quote:

    In my opinion, the most childish is the wii. i mean common, i've played all the wii sports and it made me feel homosexual.



    You and I have different ideas of what "childish" means. I mean, common.
  • Reply 66 of 164
    backtomacbacktomac Posts: 4,579member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by trumptman View Post


    Profitable as in no longer losing any additional money or profitable as in having made up all the previously declared losses?

    Nick



    Well you have to start somewhere.



    It doesn't matter. The 360 will be replaced before it has a chance to become profitable.
  • Reply 67 of 164
    flounderflounder Posts: 2,674member
    Let's ALL feel homosexual together.
  • Reply 68 of 164
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Yes thank you. I actually forgot about the HDTV for a while...



    Well, I think I'm getting a 19" Aquos HDTV for free from Verizon. The cost of HDTVs are certainly falling if a company is giving them away to steal customers from Comcast.
  • Reply 69 of 164
    Actually, if a girl and I are playing Wii late at night or after a date, there is a good chance she will sleep with me.



    That's if I had a Wii. Or a date. Or a girl willing to go on a date.



    Damn it. I *am* homosexual.
  • Reply 70 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Well, I think I'm getting a 19" Aquos HDTV for free from Verizon. The cost of HDTVs are certainly falling if a company is giving them away to steal customers from Comcast.



    Nice brand, but 19" is kinda the new de facto good desktop PC size monitor... 19" as HDTV sounds quite small. Don't be fooled by Verizon !! But yeah, prices *are* coming down all the time, etc. relative to the size you can get... bigger, better, cheaper.
  • Reply 71 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Actually, if a girl and I are playing Wii late at night or after a date, there is a good chance she will sleep with me.



    That's if I had a Wii. Or a date. Or a girl willing to go on a date.



    Damn it. I *am* homosexual.



    That's funny!



    Actually, I find the 360's make me feel Jewish, and the PS3's make me feel French. Go figure....
  • Reply 72 of 164
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Nice brand, but 19" is kinda the new de facto good desktop PC size monitor... 19" as HDTV sounds quite small. Don't be fooled by Verizon !! But yeah, prices *are* coming down all the time, etc. relative to the size you can get... bigger, better, cheaper.



    Heh...its free. I wouldn't actually buy a 19" HDTV although the bedroom LCD TV I have is 19". This would be replacing the old TV in the bedroom and while I'd have liked it to be a little bigger...it's hard to beat free for something I was thinking of doing anyway (Verizon Triple Play). The $800 or so I save from not getting a real HDTV of larger size will go into something else.



    I dunno, like maybe a Wii for the kids and a 360 for me.
  • Reply 73 of 164
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 15,268moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea


    60-70% of the casual game download market is females over 30.



    And I think it's no coincidence that they are the most likely group of people to be buying for young children.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    Wait wait wait? FPS games are not targeted at children and inexperienced gamers? I really think you're fooling yourself. FPS games are aimed at 11+. Little kids love Halo.



    Yeah but in the 12+ age group, you're starting to leave the Wii market. You get the beginning of the maturing stage up until about 15 or 16 and it's hardcore gaming all the way through to the 30s.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    I would bet that Wii owners are actually older, on average, than Xbox360/PS3 owners.



    It's not about age as a number but age as a group. The group 15-30 is the hardcore gaming market. 0-15 and 30+ are the casual, inexperienced gamers. So yes there are older people playing the Wii but ones that aren't in the hardcore gaming group.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    This analogy is absurd. If this were the case, why are there so many people who like the games? It is not just children. (I won't be so delusional as to call any gamer "mature".)



    Hardcore gamers are no less mature than people who read adult-oriented fictional books or watch adult-oriented films.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    So buying game products from Sony and Microsoft is now a way to rage against the machine?



    Yes, join the resistance. There is a disease sweeping our countries where we are being fed watered down hardware with weak, childish software packages. We need raw power to drive our violent and engaging software. We don't need any more iMacs with imovie and Wiis with Mario. We need Core 2 Quad PCs with 8800GTS cards running Crysis and high end 3D software and PS3s/360s running Call of Duty 4.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    I think the real sticking point here is the desire of one group to feel like their video games are something adult and mature, when in reality it's just a different form of Mario. I am perfectly willing to laugh at myself for staying up late at night playing Super Mario Galaxy, I have no need to delude myself into thinking it is not, in some respects, a childish waste of time.



    This seems like the real issue. You want to somehow tie everyone in together so that you don't feel childish playing kids games.



    Imagine two twenty-something men, one watches Saw 4, the other watches the Lion King. The Lion King guy says well look Disney make grown up films too so me watching the Lion King is no different from anyone else my age watching a grown up Disney movie with some violence in it, after all the daddy lion gets killed horribly. This mean me watching the Lion King is just as mature as watching Saw 4.



    Compare these movies and tell me they are equivalent:

    http://uk.gamespot.com/video/939212/...meplay-movie-1

    http://uk.gamespot.com/video/915692/...--part-2-of-12



    Another point is you would never hear swear words used in kids games. The day I hear Mario say 'Yoshi, hurry the f* up or the piece of s* mushroom is going to kick your ass, I have to get to that bitch Peach before Bowser rips her f*in' head off', then Mario is for mature gamers. And then at the end you find Peach nekkid in the shower with Luigi.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    The Xbox 360 and PS3 are not complete rehashes? What popular game for these systems lacks a number after its title?

    Halo 3? Oh wait?.

    Gran Turismo 5? Oh wait?

    GTA 4? Oh wait?

    Killzone 2? Oh wait?

    Metal Gear Solid 4? Oh wait?

    Madden 2008? Oh wait?



    It's nothing compared to Mario 39 though (I'm sure I've missed some).



    Super Mario Bros 1, 2, 3 , Super Mario Land 1, 2, Super Mario World 1, 2 (Yoshi's island), Mario 64, Super Mario Sunshine, Luigi's mansion, New Super Mario Bros (DS), Super Smash bros + Melee, Mario Kart (SNES), Mario Kart 64, Mario Golf, Mario Tennis, Mario: Legend of the Seven stars, Mario Party 1-8 (yes 8!), Dance dance revolution: Mario Mix, Super Mario Strikers, Mario baseball, Mario hoops 3 on 3, Dr Mario, Mario Paint, Mario Pinball Land, Paper Mario, Mario & Luigi superstar saga, Paper Mario: the thousand-year door (presumably a reference to the franchise's projeted lifespan), Mario & Luigi: partners in Time, Super Paper Mario, Super Mario Galaxy.



    There's nothing wrong with a franchise but to keep bringing it back over and over and over shows how little innovation there is. Even with Call of Duty 4, they changed the kind of gameplay.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by groverat View Post


    You and I have different ideas of what "childish" means. I mean, common.



    Just make sure you don't get your sex-life mixed up in that loose definition of childish. To the rest of us, there is a well-defined boundary: Nintendo and Fisher Price on one side, everyone else on the other.
  • Reply 74 of 164
    I own a Wii. Both the graphics and audio are dated, in some cases, worse than PS2. Wii's inferiority is particularly noticeable when you compare cross-platform titles like Guitar Hero III. I really wish Wii is at least capable of 720p and DD (5.1) audio.



    But I wouldn't trade Wii for PS3 or Xbox 360. Aside from few strategy and role playing games, neither of which works well on gaming console, I am just not into games. Then I played Wii at a friend's place and my wife and I were hooked. I have tried various games for PS3 and Xbox 360 just to make sure I was making the right decision, and I just didn't care for their games.



    Yes, Wii Sports is ridiculously simple and limited. But my wife and I still have fun competing against each other, and still enjoy creating Mii of new friends or interesting celebrity. Super Mario Galaxy is a lot of fun, and we look forward to playing upcoming dated and simple titles like Wii Fit and Mario Kart. If you are a gamer, Wii's dated technology and family-oriented game titles probably won't appeal to you. But as Wii's enormous success proved, there's a huge market for these so-called non-gamers. Let's not forget that Wii is the only gaming platform designed to appeal women.
  • Reply 75 of 164
    gongon Posts: 2,437member
    I know tens of people roughly between 22 and 28 who play games. At least two guys have been in Europe's best clans in different FPS games. At least two have been in national top-10 in a RTS. At least three are active in game development, a designer, a lead programmer and a graphics programmer.



    Now, out of this bunch who obviously knows their games, how many have extolled Halo, CoD, Resistance, etc.? Zero. The last FPS games I heard something about from my circle of friends were FEAR and FarCry, and that was mostly in the vein of "check out how my 24" screen looks with this new graphics card". I'm not saying they don't get played, but I am saying they are much too cookie cutter to make a wave in this particular mature gamer crowd.



    What kind of trends have I seen in the last five years or so from this group? Big screen and/or projector, and consoles with party games (anything from 4-way drunken 360 Wrestlemania to Wii Sports). Rhythm and dance games. Fighting games. Dedicated controllers for everything that can be enhanced by them. High-end board games. Poker, both live and Internet. RTS, RPG and turn-based strategy on a weak or average PC that might also be a newish laptop (for easier LAN gaming as well as doing work). DS. Wii.



    Super Mario Galaxy and Mario Kart will both be bigger hits with this crowd than an Alan Wake or Metal Gear Solid 4.



    Marvin is confusing mature with adolescent. Mature gamers aren't concerned about their image, they are concerned with playing a good game no matter if it contains WWII axe murderers or Mario and Peach. Social interaction drives most good games.
  • Reply 76 of 164
    I looked at this thread hoping to obtain some insights on whether my 8-year old will like his Christmas present, and guess what: I got zero insights.



    I am glad you guys love/hate Wii so much, but, wow. What an "inside-baseball" conversation from...... (oh well)!
  • Reply 77 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    I looked at this thread hoping to obtain some insights on whether my 8-year old will like his Christmas present, and guess what: I got zero insights.



    I am glad you guys love/hate Wii so much, but, wow. What an "inside-baseball" conversation from...... (oh well)!



    My son is 8 (going to be 9 in March) -- he wanted the Wii when it came out last year (mostly because he's a Mario fan and wanted to play Mario Galaxy). He liked the Wii a lot, but he liked his DS better... until Mario Galaxy came out just recently. Now it's a toss-up.



    The Wii is definitely fun for the whole family, and I give it a two controllers up.
  • Reply 78 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mzaslove View Post


    My son is 8 (going to be 9 in March) -- he wanted the Wii when it came out last year (mostly because he's a Mario fan and wanted to play Mario Galaxy). He liked the Wii a lot, but he liked his DS better... until Mario Galaxy came out just recently. Now it's a toss-up.



    The Wii is definitely fun for the whole family, and I give it a two controllers up.



    Thank you, sir! Good enough for me!

  • Reply 79 of 164
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post


    Yes, join the resistance. There is a disease sweeping our countries where we are being fed watered down hardware with weak, childish software packages. We need raw power to drive our violent and engaging software. We don't need any more iMacs with imovie and Wiis with Mario. We need Core 2 Quad PCs with 8800GTS cards running Crysis and high end 3D software and PS3s/360s running Call of Duty 4.



    Word. Except that should be Core 2 Quad OC'ed 3+ghz Liquid Cooled, and dual 8800GTX 640mb each. DirectX10 for Hellgate London, UT3, NFS:ProStreet. All at 32x SuperSampling SuperTransparency AntiAliasing. Full shaders and details. 1920 x 1200 resolution.



    That'll teach the WiiTards!!! muah ah hah hah aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
  • Reply 80 of 164
    The PS3 and X360 cost USD900 in India for the base models. /finger You can import one and it is cheaper.



    A 2.2GHz Core 2 duo with a 8600 NVidia card with 1GB of RAM and 250GB HDD costs the same...



    Nintendo hasn't bothered with officially setting up shop or advertising the Wii. It is available with few retailers. I hope they make an entry into the market with the price on par with international sales.
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