It should be a lot cheaper to make hundreds of millions of the standard batteries than to make a couple million custom designed for the iPhone.
Teno, you keep insisting on thinds that aren't manfacturing reality. Besides, Apple has already sold over 3 million phones, possibly 4 million, and will sell at least as many more by the time a new model comes out.
Custom batteries are expensive, my Canon battery for my 5D costs $40, which is why it can be done. The more they make, the lower the price will be. Canon will never sell anywhere near as many of these batteries as Apple will, so Apple's prices will be less.
But, this doesn't pertain to memory.
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I'm not saying it will but you are applying an uneven logic to economy of scale. Apple buys a lot of flash just like it buys a lot of batteries.
No, I'm not. you just don't know about manufacturing. You are stuck on your thought. Chip manufacturing is totally different from any other kind. There are many custom battery manufacturers around the world, just like there are thousands of custom batteries.
The custom chip manufacturers don't make custom memory chips, except for specialized, and very expensive, military needs, and those are just handpicked off the assembly line after testing, and put into high stress packaging. The chips are the same.
Memory is cheap because it relies on a process that can produce vast amounts of identical products.
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I don't see evidence of that. There are a few people on this board who refuse to buy one without 3G. But there are just as many if not more who say they have an iPhone and love it.
You can see what you want here.
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There are a couple of wrinkles in Europe. We are mostly hearing the number of activations. Its close to Christmas so many more activations will likely happen after that. Many phones being bought are likely being hacked onto other mobile carriers or being sold on the grey market. The service price is steep which would give me pause if I were looking to buy an iPhone in the UK.
It's more than wrinkles. 30 thousand sales for England in five days is not great, no matter how you try to spin it. Granted that the population is a quarter of ours, but compare it to 270 thousand sold here in three days, and you can see an obvious truth. same thing on the mainland.
Now, I'm not saying that all of the huge shortfall is due to the lack of 3G, but a fair amount certainly is.
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We know 3G is coming so they should just chill out and be patient. Complaining about it for 6 months isn't changing anything.
Not everyone is patient. Look at the idiots who stand on these lines overnight to get something they could have gotten in 20 minutes a few days later.
Most others will get something now that has what they want (need), rather than wait six months to a year.
Teno, what you also perhaps miss is that outside the US, there really isn't an extensive EDGE network. That's why a non 3G iPhone is plainly stupid despite it's wonderful UI.
Bingo!
Even Jobs himself admits that "you wish it was faster" (his words, not mine) in regards to the browsing experience on EDGE. Now take that, and make it an order of magnitude worse, by going with an exclusive carrier in the UK whose non-3G data network isn't EDGE, but rather is mostly GPRS, i.e. 25-40 kbps, i.e. dial-up speed.
Gee, is it 2007, or is it 1995? I'll go get my old 28.8 modem out of the hall closet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know... it has wifi. Great. But if you're mobile, i.e. in a car or on public transit (which is much more popular in Europe than the US), it doesn't do you any good. Also, what if you're away from a city center/urban area? Blah.
We keep hearing from the Euro posters again and again that lack of 3G is one of the big things keeping them away from the iPhone (the other being price), and Euro sales bear that out by being much less than impressive, and yet we have Teno running around with his hands over his ears yelling, in effect, "Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!" \
At this point, I almost have to wonder if he shouldn't be in an executive position at Apple marketing, 'cuz he'd be fantastic at it. He's spinning harder than my washing machine during rinse cycle.
Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. The iPhone is still cool, is still revolutionary. But I have to admit I'm kinda disappointed considering that Samsung was able to give us a 3G smartphone with good battery life a month ago, i.e. at the same time as Apple's Euro launch. And its not a tank either, its only a half-inch thick. If they can do it, Apple should be able to too.
But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS (LG already has one out in the US, courtesy of Verizon. And yep, it's selling).
Probably didn't have to be this way, but Steve's design choices dictated some of that, as even Teno admits. Form over function to the nth degree, wheeee.
Far as my own choices in the US go, wake me up when Apple has a 3G model out. And when ATT isn't the exclusive carrier anymore.
Sidenote- It was pretty hilarious when I was watching ABC World News very late last night. They had a segment on the 'big gadgets of 2007', and of course the iPhone was on it. One of the two anchors then went as far as to haul out her own iPhone after the segment video finished, and proclaim "I love it." The other anchor then asked her, "What do you think of the ATT service?". At which point Anchor #1 grimaced and dodged the question.
Even Jobs himself admits that "you wish it was faster" (his words, not mine) in regards to the browsing experience on EDGE. Now take that, and make it an order of magnitude worse, by going with an exclusive carrier in the UK whose non-3G data network isn't EDGE, but rather is mostly GPRS, i.e. 25-40 kbps, i.e. dial-up speed.
Gee, is it 2007, or is it 1995? I'll go get my old 28.8 modem out of the hall closet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know... it has wifi. Great. But if you're mobile, i.e. in a car or on public transit (which is much more popular in Europe than the US), it doesn't do you any good. Also, what if you're away from a city center/urban area? Blah.
We keep hearing from the Euro posters again and again that lack of 3G is one of the big things keeping them away from the iPhone (the other being price), and Euro sales bear that out by being much less than impressive, and yet we have Teno running around with his hands over his ears yelling, in effect, "Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!" \
At this point, I almost have to wonder if he shouldn't be in an executive position at Apple marketing, 'cuz he'd be fantastic at it. He's spinning harder than my washing machine during rinse cycle.
Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. The iPhone is still cool, is still revolutionary. But I have to admit I'm kinda disappointed considering that Samsung was able to give us a 3G smartphone with good battery life a month ago, i.e. at the same time as Apple's Euro launch. And its not a tank either, its only a half-inch thick. If they can do it, Apple should be able to too.
But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS (LG already has one out in the US, courtesy of Verizon. And yep, it's selling).
Probably didn't have to be this way, but Steve's design choices dictated some of that, as even Teno admits. Form over function, wheeee.
Far as my own choices in the US go, wake me up when Apple has a 3G model out. And when ATT isn't the exclusive carrier anymore.
Sidenote- It was pretty hilarious when I was watching ABC World News very late last night. They had a segment on the 'big gadgets of 2007', and of course the iPhone was on it. One of the two anchors then went as far as to haul out her own iPhone after the segment video finished, and proclaim "I love it." The other anchor then asked her, "What do you think of the ATT service?". At which point Anchor #1 grimaced and dodged the question.
I don't know why you don't believe me. It's great down here, there's a closet full of black mock turtlenecks, and a 'quarterly review stall' where Steve gets to taze underperforming employees or anyone who's unwilling to do 100-hour weeks.
Strangely enough, there's no shower. Hmmm.
The parking's lousy though. Nothing but handicapped spaces. Steve said "It was never a problem" for him. Wonder why.
No, I'm not. you just don't know about manufacturing.
Fine enough I'm no more a chip manufacturer than you. Much of what you say sounds like your opinion to support your position more than it sounds like you have any real information of how these processes work.
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30 thousand sales for England in five days is not great, no matter how you try to spin it.
Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.
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"Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!"
You have a special knack for misquoting me. I never said the iPhone has lost no sales because of 3G. But there are a few other factors going on in Europe other than 3G.
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But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS
The same way Apple gave their competitors time to catch up with their good enough mp3 players....with FM radios, music rentals, and Plays For Sure.
Just as the iPod has always been a work in progress which never gave the competition a chance to catch up. I would venture the iPhone will be the same. By the time competitors have made what the iPhone was last year Apple will have moved on.
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Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. Right on, T!
Seems no matter what success the iPhone achieves you will cling to the the idea it could have done "better" if it had 3G now. Your minds are permanently set on that no matter the facts that may point to the contrary. In a few months it'll no longer be an issue.
Fine enough I'm no more a chip manufacturer than you. Much of what you say sounds like your opinion to support your position more than it sounds like you have any real information of how these processes work.
I don't have to be a chip manufacturer. You know I have manufacturing and electronic design experience. I've had these issues to go through, though not recently. But, you can read the tech sites as well as anyone, even without the experience.
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Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.
I don't see why not that would be valid. Other than the amount of 3G usage, what other major differences are there? They buy expensive phones, etc. And it's the same in Germany and France. Sales per population numbers all far below US figures. MMS? I don't think so. MMS is used more by those who want to save money, not use expensive services.
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You have a special knack for misquoting me. I never said the iPhone has lost no sales because of 3G. But there are a few other factors going on in Europe other than 3G.
Ah. Reading down from the last, I thought you meant me. Teno, please refer to whom you are responding. I don't write that way, that's how I caught it.
Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.
Yep that's true. There are lots of other factors too such as the lack of an EDGE network, more advanced and more competitive competition, the iPhone's price and it's dismal tariffs.
Apple just got it wrong trying to force a US phone on Europe with US pricing too. I hope they learn from that and not just in the phone market too.
I don't have to be a chip manufacturer. You know I have manufacturing and electronic design experience. I've had these issues to go through, though not recently. But, you can read the tech sites as well as anyone, even without the experience.
You clearly take a firm and biased stance on an issue and use whatever information you have available to support it. I'm sure some of the things you say are true. But I don't believe someone who actually does work in flash or battery manufacturing would fully agree with you.
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I don't see why not that would be valid. Other than the amount of 3G usage, what other major differences are there?
The European market is already flooded with fairly advanced phones. While in the US the iPhone is a lot better than most anything we have.
The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.
The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.
The iPod Touch was available in Europe before the iPhone. The iPod Touch was not an option in the US when 270,000 iPhones were sold in two days.
The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
Thinking about it again. Europe doesn't have it that bad with its mobile service. The contract is for 18 months. Oranage in France and T-Mobile in Germany will unlock your iPhone after the contract is over and you are free to move the phone to a number of other carriers.
In the US our contract is 24 months. ATT will not unlock our phones. And even if they did the only other option is T-Mobile. Verizon would be much more the preferred option.
The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.
It's not really that that is an issue. We're quite used to paying more than the US.... except for phones where it's usually a lot less especially in the UK. By comparison with other handsets in Europe, the iPhone tariffs are very expensive unless you really need a lot of data in your tariff. And if you did need a lot of data, you'd not pick a phone that only offers 2G speeds and can't be used as a modem. That's the WTF moment you have when trying to rationalise the iPhone especially when it's sold next to free N95s with unlimited text, gps mapping updates, 500 minutes free and 'unlimited' data for £35 in the very same shop from the very same carrier.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.
Not true. O2 may have not released actual sales figures but both Orange France and T-Mobile did. Still, I wonder what Jobs will say on the stage at MacWorld. Orange France said about 20% were sold unlocked.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
I really, really, really doubt that. The market for phones at Xmas is Pay-As-You-Go phones, not expensive 18 month contract phones. The top seller this Xmas in the stores today (just back from Manchester shopping) was the Sony Ericsson W580i at around £100 contract free and unlocked on t-mobile.
Thinking about it again. Europe doesn't have it that bad with its mobile service. The contract is for 18 months. Oranage in France and T-Mobile in Germany will unlock your iPhone after the contract is over and you are free to move the phone to a number of other carriers.
In the US our contract is 24 months. ATT will not unlock our phones. And even if they did the only other option is T-Mobile. Verizon would be much more the preferred option.
Yes, it's not bad in comparison to the USA, but that's not the point!
Not true. O2 may have not released actual sales figures but both Orange France and T-Mobile did. Still, I wonder what Jobs will say on the stage at MacWorld. Orange France said about 20% were sold unlocked.
That still only accounts for the phones that they've sold, it does not tell the full story of how many are being sold in Europe overall.
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I really, really, really doubt that. The market for phones at Xmas is Pay-As-You-Go phones, not expensive 18 month contract phones.
Its the same in the US. There will be many other phones that will far outsell the iPhone for Christmas. In the grand scheme of things hundreds of thousands isn't that much. I'm not saying the iPhone will be the top selling phone for Christmas, I'm just saying it is selling.
You clearly take a firm and biased stance on an issue and use whatever information you have available to support it. I'm sure some of the things you say are true. But I don't believe someone who actually does work in flash or battery manufacturing would fully agree with you.
The stands of everyone here is biased in some way, including yours. you reasize that, f course. But, the reason why I get so energized sometimes is because I do have experience in areas that often those arguiung with me, don't.
For example, you say that those who manufacture those products would differ with me. Based on what knowledge? You can go read about it yourself, as I suggested, and then come and argue some more, if you find me to be wrong in this. There is nothing I'm saying that is so obscure that it isn't available, if you want to look.
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The European market is already flooded with fairly advanced phones. While in the US the iPhone is a lot better than most anything we have.
The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.
The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.
Good points, but they still can't account for the vast difference in sales, just some of it. The phone plans in Europe are better of worse, it depends.
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The iPod Touch was available in Europe before the iPhone. The iPod Touch was not an option in the US when 270,000 iPhones were sold in two days.
For a short while, yes. But people who want a phone aren't going to buy the iTouch. Compare the iTouch to the effect it had on music/video players better.
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The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
We'll see. That's not something you can quantify, because it hasn't happened yet, and the sales here will also rise because of that, so they could very well cancel out.
Comments
It should be a lot cheaper to make hundreds of millions of the standard batteries than to make a couple million custom designed for the iPhone.
Teno, you keep insisting on thinds that aren't manfacturing reality. Besides, Apple has already sold over 3 million phones, possibly 4 million, and will sell at least as many more by the time a new model comes out.
Custom batteries are expensive, my Canon battery for my 5D costs $40, which is why it can be done. The more they make, the lower the price will be. Canon will never sell anywhere near as many of these batteries as Apple will, so Apple's prices will be less.
But, this doesn't pertain to memory.
I'm not saying it will but you are applying an uneven logic to economy of scale. Apple buys a lot of flash just like it buys a lot of batteries.
No, I'm not. you just don't know about manufacturing. You are stuck on your thought. Chip manufacturing is totally different from any other kind. There are many custom battery manufacturers around the world, just like there are thousands of custom batteries.
The custom chip manufacturers don't make custom memory chips, except for specialized, and very expensive, military needs, and those are just handpicked off the assembly line after testing, and put into high stress packaging. The chips are the same.
Memory is cheap because it relies on a process that can produce vast amounts of identical products.
I don't see evidence of that. There are a few people on this board who refuse to buy one without 3G. But there are just as many if not more who say they have an iPhone and love it.
You can see what you want here.
There are a couple of wrinkles in Europe. We are mostly hearing the number of activations. Its close to Christmas so many more activations will likely happen after that. Many phones being bought are likely being hacked onto other mobile carriers or being sold on the grey market. The service price is steep which would give me pause if I were looking to buy an iPhone in the UK.
It's more than wrinkles. 30 thousand sales for England in five days is not great, no matter how you try to spin it. Granted that the population is a quarter of ours, but compare it to 270 thousand sold here in three days, and you can see an obvious truth. same thing on the mainland.
Now, I'm not saying that all of the huge shortfall is due to the lack of 3G, but a fair amount certainly is.
We know 3G is coming so they should just chill out and be patient. Complaining about it for 6 months isn't changing anything.
Not everyone is patient. Look at the idiots who stand on these lines overnight to get something they could have gotten in 20 minutes a few days later.
Most others will get something now that has what they want (need), rather than wait six months to a year.
Teno, what you also perhaps miss is that outside the US, there really isn't an extensive EDGE network. That's why a non 3G iPhone is plainly stupid despite it's wonderful UI.
Bingo!
Even Jobs himself admits that "you wish it was faster" (his words, not mine) in regards to the browsing experience on EDGE. Now take that, and make it an order of magnitude worse, by going with an exclusive carrier in the UK whose non-3G data network isn't EDGE, but rather is mostly GPRS, i.e. 25-40 kbps, i.e. dial-up speed.
Gee, is it 2007, or is it 1995? I'll go get my old 28.8 modem out of the hall closet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know... it has wifi. Great. But if you're mobile, i.e. in a car or on public transit (which is much more popular in Europe than the US), it doesn't do you any good. Also, what if you're away from a city center/urban area? Blah.
We keep hearing from the Euro posters again and again that lack of 3G is one of the big things keeping them away from the iPhone (the other being price), and Euro sales bear that out by being much less than impressive, and yet we have Teno running around with his hands over his ears yelling, in effect, "Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!"
At this point, I almost have to wonder if he shouldn't be in an executive position at Apple marketing, 'cuz he'd be fantastic at it. He's spinning harder than my washing machine during rinse cycle.
Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. The iPhone is still cool, is still revolutionary. But I have to admit I'm kinda disappointed considering that Samsung was able to give us a 3G smartphone with good battery life a month ago, i.e. at the same time as Apple's Euro launch. And its not a tank either, its only a half-inch thick. If they can do it, Apple should be able to too.
But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS (LG already has one out in the US, courtesy of Verizon. And yep, it's selling).
Probably didn't have to be this way, but Steve's design choices dictated some of that, as even Teno admits. Form over function to the nth degree, wheeee.
Far as my own choices in the US go, wake me up when Apple has a 3G model out. And when ATT isn't the exclusive carrier anymore.
Sidenote- It was pretty hilarious when I was watching ABC World News very late last night. They had a segment on the 'big gadgets of 2007', and of course the iPhone was on it. One of the two anchors then went as far as to haul out her own iPhone after the segment video finished, and proclaim "I love it." The other anchor then asked her, "What do you think of the ATT service?". At which point Anchor #1 grimaced and dodged the question.
Augh.
.
Bingo!
Even Jobs himself admits that "you wish it was faster" (his words, not mine) in regards to the browsing experience on EDGE. Now take that, and make it an order of magnitude worse, by going with an exclusive carrier in the UK whose non-3G data network isn't EDGE, but rather is mostly GPRS, i.e. 25-40 kbps, i.e. dial-up speed.
Gee, is it 2007, or is it 1995? I'll go get my old 28.8 modem out of the hall closet.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we know... it has wifi. Great. But if you're mobile, i.e. in a car or on public transit (which is much more popular in Europe than the US), it doesn't do you any good. Also, what if you're away from a city center/urban area? Blah.
We keep hearing from the Euro posters again and again that lack of 3G is one of the big things keeping them away from the iPhone (the other being price), and Euro sales bear that out by being much less than impressive, and yet we have Teno running around with his hands over his ears yelling, in effect, "Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!"
At this point, I almost have to wonder if he shouldn't be in an executive position at Apple marketing, 'cuz he'd be fantastic at it. He's spinning harder than my washing machine during rinse cycle.
Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. The iPhone is still cool, is still revolutionary. But I have to admit I'm kinda disappointed considering that Samsung was able to give us a 3G smartphone with good battery life a month ago, i.e. at the same time as Apple's Euro launch. And its not a tank either, its only a half-inch thick. If they can do it, Apple should be able to too.
But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS (LG already has one out in the US, courtesy of Verizon. And yep, it's selling).
Probably didn't have to be this way, but Steve's design choices dictated some of that, as even Teno admits. Form over function, wheeee.
Far as my own choices in the US go, wake me up when Apple has a 3G model out. And when ATT isn't the exclusive carrier anymore.
Sidenote- It was pretty hilarious when I was watching ABC World News very late last night. They had a segment on the 'big gadgets of 2007', and of course the iPhone was on it. One of the two anchors then went as far as to haul out her own iPhone after the segment video finished, and proclaim "I love it." The other anchor then asked her, "What do you think of the ATT service?". At which point Anchor #1 grimaced and dodged the question.
Augh.
.
Right on, T!
Right on, T!
*high-fives Mel, and goes off to fix himself some lunch*
.
*high-fives Mel, and goes off to fix himself some lunch*
.
Lunch?
Well, we don't know where you are, but it must be a long ways away from where I am.
Lunch?
Well, we don't know where you are, but it must be a long ways away from where I am.
I'm West Coast. It was actually 3:30-ish here when I posted that, so late lunch/very early dinner.
Now to eat!
.
I'm West Coast. It was actually 3:30-ish here when I posted that, so late lunch/very early dinner.
Now to eat!
.
Ah. you're beginning to give yourself away.
A little more prodding, and who knows what might happen!
Ah. you're beginning to give yourself away.
A little more prodding, and who knows what might happen!
I'm actually posting from Steve's secret underground Cupertino command bunker.
Air vents are a wonderful thing, if a bit tight.
.
I'm actually posting from Steve's secret underground Cupertino command bunker.
Air vents are a wonderful thing, if a bit tight.
.
Will you go and eat already before your starvation gets worse, and your hallucinations take you over completely!
We'll be here later. I'm going to dinner downstairs in a short while as well.
Strangely enough, there's no shower. Hmmm.
The parking's lousy though. Nothing but handicapped spaces. Steve said "It was never a problem" for him. Wonder why.
...
... and a 'quarterly review stall' where Steve gets to taze underperforming employees or anyone who's unwilling to do 100-hour weeks.
...
Well, THAT I believe.
No, I'm not. you just don't know about manufacturing.
Fine enough I'm no more a chip manufacturer than you. Much of what you say sounds like your opinion to support your position more than it sounds like you have any real information of how these processes work.
30 thousand sales for England in five days is not great, no matter how you try to spin it.
Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.
"Lalalalala, I can't HEAR you! iPhone hasn't lost ANY sales due to lack of 3G! Dismal Euro sales WILL pick up! Lalalala!"
You have a special knack for misquoting me. I never said the iPhone has lost no sales because of 3G. But there are a few other factors going on in Europe other than 3G.
But instead, we'll be waiting another 6-10 months, while iPhone sales are lost, as Mel correctly points out, and while Apple's competitors gain time to bring out their "good enough" touchscreen iPhone clones... with 3G, with MMS, with GPS
The same way Apple gave their competitors time to catch up with their good enough mp3 players....with FM radios, music rentals, and Plays For Sure.
Just as the iPod has always been a work in progress which never gave the competition a chance to catch up. I would venture the iPhone will be the same. By the time competitors have made what the iPhone was last year Apple will have moved on.
Teno, it's okay to admit that Apple pulled a bit of a gooferino in not having their 3G model ready in time for the Euro launch. Right on, T!
Seems no matter what success the iPhone achieves you will cling to the the idea it could have done "better" if it had 3G now. Your minds are permanently set on that no matter the facts that may point to the contrary. In a few months it'll no longer be an issue.
Fine enough I'm no more a chip manufacturer than you. Much of what you say sounds like your opinion to support your position more than it sounds like you have any real information of how these processes work.
I don't have to be a chip manufacturer. You know I have manufacturing and electronic design experience. I've had these issues to go through, though not recently. But, you can read the tech sites as well as anyone, even without the experience.
Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.
I don't see why not that would be valid. Other than the amount of 3G usage, what other major differences are there? They buy expensive phones, etc. And it's the same in Germany and France. Sales per population numbers all far below US figures. MMS? I don't think so. MMS is used more by those who want to save money, not use expensive services.
You have a special knack for misquoting me. I never said the iPhone has lost no sales because of 3G. But there are a few other factors going on in Europe other than 3G.
Ah. Reading down from the last, I thought you meant me. Teno, please refer to whom you are responding. I don't write that way, that's how I caught it.
Not great in comparison to what? A fair comparision cannot be made with US sales the circumstances between the two markets are very different.
Yep that's true. There are lots of other factors too such as the lack of an EDGE network, more advanced and more competitive competition, the iPhone's price and it's dismal tariffs.
Apple just got it wrong trying to force a US phone on Europe with US pricing too. I hope they learn from that and not just in the phone market too.
I don't have to be a chip manufacturer. You know I have manufacturing and electronic design experience. I've had these issues to go through, though not recently. But, you can read the tech sites as well as anyone, even without the experience.
You clearly take a firm and biased stance on an issue and use whatever information you have available to support it. I'm sure some of the things you say are true. But I don't believe someone who actually does work in flash or battery manufacturing would fully agree with you.
I don't see why not that would be valid. Other than the amount of 3G usage, what other major differences are there?
The European market is already flooded with fairly advanced phones. While in the US the iPhone is a lot better than most anything we have.
The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.
The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.
The iPod Touch was available in Europe before the iPhone. The iPod Touch was not an option in the US when 270,000 iPhones were sold in two days.
The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
In the US our contract is 24 months. ATT will not unlock our phones. And even if they did the only other option is T-Mobile. Verizon would be much more the preferred option.
The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.
It's not really that that is an issue. We're quite used to paying more than the US.... except for phones where it's usually a lot less especially in the UK. By comparison with other handsets in Europe, the iPhone tariffs are very expensive unless you really need a lot of data in your tariff. And if you did need a lot of data, you'd not pick a phone that only offers 2G speeds and can't be used as a modem. That's the WTF moment you have when trying to rationalise the iPhone especially when it's sold next to free N95s with unlimited text, gps mapping updates, 500 minutes free and 'unlimited' data for £35 in the very same shop from the very same carrier.
The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.
Not true. O2 may have not released actual sales figures but both Orange France and T-Mobile did. Still, I wonder what Jobs will say on the stage at MacWorld. Orange France said about 20% were sold unlocked.
The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
I really, really, really doubt that. The market for phones at Xmas is Pay-As-You-Go phones, not expensive 18 month contract phones. The top seller this Xmas in the stores today (just back from Manchester shopping) was the Sony Ericsson W580i at around £100 contract free and unlocked on t-mobile.
Thinking about it again. Europe doesn't have it that bad with its mobile service. The contract is for 18 months. Oranage in France and T-Mobile in Germany will unlock your iPhone after the contract is over and you are free to move the phone to a number of other carriers.
In the US our contract is 24 months. ATT will not unlock our phones. And even if they did the only other option is T-Mobile. Verizon would be much more the preferred option.
Yes, it's not bad in comparison to the USA, but that's not the point!
Not true. O2 may have not released actual sales figures but both Orange France and T-Mobile did. Still, I wonder what Jobs will say on the stage at MacWorld. Orange France said about 20% were sold unlocked.
That still only accounts for the phones that they've sold, it does not tell the full story of how many are being sold in Europe overall.
I really, really, really doubt that. The market for phones at Xmas is Pay-As-You-Go phones, not expensive 18 month contract phones.
Its the same in the US. There will be many other phones that will far outsell the iPhone for Christmas. In the grand scheme of things hundreds of thousands isn't that much. I'm not saying the iPhone will be the top selling phone for Christmas, I'm just saying it is selling.
You clearly take a firm and biased stance on an issue and use whatever information you have available to support it. I'm sure some of the things you say are true. But I don't believe someone who actually does work in flash or battery manufacturing would fully agree with you.
The stands of everyone here is biased in some way, including yours. you reasize that, f course. But, the reason why I get so energized sometimes is because I do have experience in areas that often those arguiung with me, don't.
For example, you say that those who manufacture those products would differ with me. Based on what knowledge? You can go read about it yourself, as I suggested, and then come and argue some more, if you find me to be wrong in this. There is nothing I'm saying that is so obscure that it isn't available, if you want to look.
The European market is already flooded with fairly advanced phones. While in the US the iPhone is a lot better than most anything we have.
The service charge for the Europe iPhone is higher than it is in the US.
The official sales numbers we are hearing from Europe are activations and not actual sales from Apple. There is likely to be a much higher number of iPhones unlocked and running on different carriers in Europe than in the US. Which would not be figured into the official activation numbers.
Good points, but they still can't account for the vast difference in sales, just some of it. The phone plans in Europe are better of worse, it depends.
The iPod Touch was available in Europe before the iPhone. The iPod Touch was not an option in the US when 270,000 iPhones were sold in two days.
For a short while, yes. But people who want a phone aren't going to buy the iTouch. Compare the iTouch to the effect it had on music/video players better.
The iPhone was released weeks before Christmas. There will at least be tens if not hundreds of thousands of iPhones waiting to be opened Christmas morning. Most will likely be activated with Apples carriers of choice. Some will definitely be unlocked and used on other carriers.
We'll see. That's not something you can quantify, because it hasn't happened yet, and the sales here will also rise because of that, so they could very well cancel out.