I never said that 200,000 sales in two days was required. To my thinking, if the numbers were double what they were, it would have been pretty good. As they are, they are disappointing. I simply think that Apple and the operators are putting a good face on it., I'm not saying that it's a disaster either.
I don't see any precedent outside of the US iPhone launch, that a phone must launch a certain amount of units to be proven a long term sales success. The sales numbers may be a media disappointment proportionate to the hype Apple has built for it. But I doubt it is a financial disappointment for Apple or its partners. For them that is what most matters.
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It's not worth beating the dead horse anymore Teno... spin is pointless. Apple did not have a good European launch, except in France. So why argue on and on and on when it's obvious that no one is buying what you're spinning?
Those are arbitrary numbers with little context. All those quotes say is that the Euro launch sales were less than the US launch sales. That has no bearing on the real profitability of the iPhone or how well it competes against its competition.
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Starting to understand the difference between a superfluous feature and one you really do need to compete well in a tough market? Alrighty then. That makes sense... oh wait, no, it doesn't. Because 3G isn't an ease-of-use issue at all, it's just a faster way to transmit data. And because most of the other features mentioned are already quite easy to use.
I never said any of those were superfluous. Windows Media phones have all of these functions you describe. The iPhone has outsold them all in its first quarter of US sales.
Those features are not necessarily easy to use on every phone. Generally as more are added they get piled into sub-menus.
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Reading these two quotes back-to-back, they appear to contradict each other. On the one hand, we have Teno saying " I don't think it was an accident that everything with the iPod worked out so well", meaning Apple is halfway to being a tech Nostradamus and can see the future accurately.
I've never said Apple was infallible. Nor have I ever predicted the success of the iPhone. I've only pointed out how arm chair quarterbacks can criticize Apple strategies that end up working phenomenally well.
Apple could have easily repositioned the Cube. Killing it shows Apple likely had no future plans for the Cube.
If the movie studios and television networks had signed on to iTunes the way music had, Apple TV would be a different story today. What Apple TV lacks is a wide variety of easily accessible content. There are several ways Apple could change that situation. I agree attempting to tie it to iTunes like the iPod is mistake.
I don't see any precedent outside of the US iPhone launch, that a phone must launch a certain amount of units to be proven a long term sales success. The sales numbers may be a media disappointment proportionate to the hype Apple has built for it. But I doubt it is a financial disappointment for Apple or its partners. For them that is what most matters.
Those are arbitrary numbers with little context. All those quotes say is that the Euro launch sales were less than the US launch sales. That has no bearing on the real profitability of the iPhone or how well it competes against its competition.
We can only go by what we've seen before, and what we're told is good.
If you simply don't want to think that this was disappointing, then fine,
But just realize that you have nothing to back up your contention that the sales were good. At least we're using numbers, you're not.
We can only go by what we've seen before, and what we're told is good. But just realize that you have nothing to back up your contention that the sales were good. At least we're using numbers, you're not.
That's what I'm getting at. I cannot see where a benchmark has been set for what is good and what is bad. It has only been said that what the iPhone sold is bad. Besides the US iPhone launch they did not cite any other phone with good sales to give context to why the iPhone sales are bad.
That's generally what you do to qualify bad sales. You look at what competing products are doing and you look to see if the product is making a profit. That is missing from these numbers.
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Somehow you want to think it's all just dandy.
Actually I've never given an opinion to whether Euro iPhone sales were good or bad. I've challenged those who said they were bad. I've said because the launch was weeks before Christmas we have to wait for the end of the quarter to get a clear picture to how it is going.
I don't see any precedent outside of the US iPhone launch, that a phone must launch a certain amount of units to be proven a long term sales success. The sales numbers may be a media disappointment proportionate to the hype Apple has built for it. But I doubt it is a financial disappointment for Apple or its partners. For them that is what most matters.
Those are arbitrary numbers with little context. All those quotes say is that the Euro launch sales were less than the US launch sales. That has no bearing on the real profitability of the iPhone or how well it competes against its competition.
LOL. While its been a bit tragicomic to see you lurch from justification to justification over Apple's lackluster Euro launch ("The numbers will improve!"... "Apple was never going to sell that many iPhones in Europe anyway!".... "Half of worldwide sales will come from the US anyway!".... "The numbers aren't actually bad!"... "We'll still be profitable!"), fact is, Teno, the Euro launch numbers are disappointing, no matter how you slice it.
The rest coming from you, as usual, is just...
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I never said any of those were superfluous. Windows Media phones have all of these functions you describe. The iPhone has outsold them all in its first quarter of US sales.
Wow, what a low bar to set. Windows mobile has 6% of the smartphone market, and 0.6% of the overall cellphone market. Wheeee. \ Oh, and I'm sure WM devices are doing that poorly because they include useful features that people want, like 3G and MMS, rather than it being due to the mediocrity that is Windows Mobile. /end sarcasm
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Those features are not necessarily easy to use on every phone. Generally as more are added they get piled into sub-menus.
Don't be silly. Let's take the two most cited missing features, 3G and MMS, for example.
3G isn't even an ease-of-use issue, as you've been told before. Its just a faster way to transmit data. Next.
Now, MMS? Easy to use already. The process on my nothing-special midrange phone:
- Open pic
- Select Options. The very first option? 'Send'.
- Select Picture Message.
- Select the sendee
- Type in your accompanying text (optional)
- Hit Send.
WOW, so very difficult!
Teno, the Euros aren't saying "Oh Apple, please SAVE US from the tyrannical maze that is sending an MMS message!". They know how to MMS, its easy and they've been doing it for years on their current phones. No, they just want to be ABLE TO MMS on the iPhone, and they CAN'T because IT'S NOT THERE as a feature.
Get it? Got it? Good.
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I've never said Apple was infallible. Nor have I ever predicted the success of the iPhone. I've only pointed out how arm chair quarterbacks can criticize Apple strategies that end up working phenomenally well.
Stop refighting the iPod War, Teno. It's just not that helpful here. It's counterproductive actually, because if Apple starts believing their own press clippings, they're going to have a very long, hard time of it with the iPhone overseas.
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Apple could have easily repositioned the Cube. Killing it shows Apple likely had no future plans for the Cube.
So much for your 'Apple as Nostradamus' theory then. Apple should've been that one coming, rather than pushing a dead-end product.
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If the movie studios and television networks had signed on to iTunes the way music had, Apple TV would be a different story today. What Apple TV lacks is a wide variety of easily accessible content. There are several ways Apple could change that situation. I agree attempting to tie it to iTunes like the iPod is mistake.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Face it, Apple TV can't really take off, because the one piece of functionality that would allow it do so (DVR) can't be included because it'd cannibalize iTunes Store sales and also piss off the very content providers who are vital to the iTunes Store.
The other alternative is to make Apple TV cheap enough so that its price is in line with its limited functionality, but then Apple wouldn't get their fat margins on it and they'd kill it. Game over. \
Yup. And sadly for Teno, spin isn't what's needed here. Companies believing their own spin is actually what gets many of them in trouble.
Much more often, what works best is a sober, realistic assessment of both what's going well and what's not, and some timely adjustments in strategy where needed. But to do that, you first have to be willing to acknowledge that things are less than hunky-dory across the board.
Otherwise, you become the proverbial 'dinosaur' of the corporate world... you get whacked in the tail, and then a few months later your brain goes, "Ouch". Often too late to respond effectively. \
That's what I'm getting at. I cannot see where a benchmark has been set for what is good and what is bad. It has only been said that what the iPhone sold is bad. Besides the US iPhone launch they did not cite any other phone with good sales to give context to why the iPhone sales are bad.
That's generally what you do to qualify bad sales. You look at what competing products are doing and you look to see if the product is making a profit. That is missing from these numbers.
Except for the Razr, no other phone has received so much press before it came out. Apple's products are now expected to do much better than expectations, or they are a failure.
I read an article that said that Apple has received, this year, enough free press to equal $700 million in advertising. This lifts those expectations sky high. If the product doesn't meet those expectations, it's no good.
We just had our big holiday party Monday, and a friend had bought an iPhone a month ago. He loves the phone, except for the lack of 3G—way too slow, he says, and the vertical keyboard. He's a big guy, with big fingers.
These are two areas Apple has to fix. Europeans aren't stupid. They know what they want, and they're willing, for the most part, to wait for it.
My hope is that they aren't passing on the phone for others that do have what they want now.
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Actually I've never given an opinion to whether Euro iPhone sales were good or bad. I've challenged those who said they were bad. I've said because the launch was weeks before Christmas we have to wait for the end of the quarter to get a clear picture to how it is going.
Well, your posts don't come across that way. you read like a cheerleader for sure.
So much for your 'Apple as Nostradamus' theory then. Apple should've been that one coming, rather than pushing a dead-end product.
Instead of sticking with the substance of what I say you attempt to come up with these obviously sensational over the top versions of what I've said. It doesn't really help your argument.
A lot of people loved the Cube, it would have sold well had Apple repositioned it, I'm sure most company would want to have that type of failure. I'm sure there is an interesting story as to what happened with the Cube, hopefully one day someone from Apple will tell it.
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Yup. And sadly for Teno, spin isn't what's needed here. Companies believing their own spin is actually what gets many of them in trouble. Much more often, what works best is a sober, realistic assessment of both what's going well and what's not, and some timely adjustments in strategy where needed. But to do that, you first have to be willing to acknowledge that things are less than hunky-dory across the board.
You posted numbers that had no correlation to the wider mobile phone sales or gave any evidence if those sales are profitable for Apple or its partners. Taking all of that into account is a sober realistic assessment.
Looking at sales numbers and comparing that to the unusually high sales that same product had in another market to justify calling it a failure is not a sober realistic assessment.
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Except for the Razr, no other phone has received so much press before it came out. Apple's products are now expected to do much better than expectations, or they are a failure.
That is all purely hype and no substance. What the press says has no relation to how well Apple products are selling or how profitable they are. Seeing as Apple stock has continued to do well the street is paying this no attention.
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Well, your posts don't come across that way. you read like a cheerleader for sure.
We don't have enough evidence to say how well the phone is doing. I'm actually surprised Mel you will take these sensationalist reports for real data. I'm surprised you don't agree that we should wait till the end of the quarter to get the real picture.
That is all purely hype and no substance. What the press says has no relation to how well Apple products are selling or how profitable they are. Seeing as Apple stock has continued to do well the street is paying this no attention.
That's ridiculous, of course it does. People don't buy in a vacuum. Enormous press, when it's good, has a very large influence on what people buy. Apple knows this quite well. so do those in the industry who have expressed admiration for Apple in being able to garner it.
But, it can't guarantee sales. We also don't know what the press is in other markets. I'd e curious as to what it has been in Europe.
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We don't have enough evidence to say how well the phone is doing. I'm actually surprised Mel you will take these sensationalist reports for real data. I'm surprised you don't agree that we should wait till the end of the quarter to get the real picture.
I'm just using the numbers that we all have before us.
When the iPhone sold so well here for the first three days, those numbers were used as evidence that the phone did very well.
The numbers in Europe can also be used as evidence that it didn't do as well there.
Of course we need to see later figures as well, but if the original figures were better, then we would all be jumping up and down.
That's ridiculous, of course it does. People don't buy in a vacuum. Enormous press, when it's good, has a very large influence on what people buy. Apple knows this quite well. so do those in the industry who have expressed admiration for Apple in being able to garner it.
You took that in a different way than I'd intended. There is always good and bad press written about Apple's products. Of course all of the media attention (good or bad) helps bring attention. I would say for the most part Apple products have been successful because they work well. Good press wouldn't help much if the product was crap.
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I'm just using the numbers that we all have before us. The numbers in Europe can also be used as evidence that it didn't do as well there. ]Of course we need to see later figures as well, but if the original figures were better, then we would all be jumping up and down.
Matthew Key the incoming chief executive of O2 Europe says 200,000 iPhones should be sold in the UK by early January, which is in line with his expectations since the November 9 launch, although some analysts claim his target is conservative. Gartner, the research firm, says sales of up to 400,000 should be possible.
In the near term, the iPhone may help Mr Key in the tough task of trying to maintain O2’s position as the UK’s largest mobile operator. Vodafone is resurgent, but Mr Key highlights how the iPhone is enabling O2 to steal customers from rivals. About 60 per cent of iPhone users are new to O2.
Again I would say they did not give sales of other phones to help give the iPhone numbers a context, but O2 sounds pleased.
Buyers of Apple’s iPhone have turned out to be voracious users of electronic mail and other data services, giving network operators hope that the much-hyped device will finally unlock billions of dollars in mobile advertising revenue.
After years of false dawns for operators, the use of mobile phones for web surfing is on the verge of becoming widespread in Europe and the US, and iPhone research by O2 shows the device is acting as an important catalyst for such activity.
Matthew Key, who becomes chief executive of O2 Europe next month, told the Financial Times that 60 per cent of the company’s iPhone customers in the UK were sending or receiving more than 25 megabytes of data a month, the equivalent of 7,500 e-mails without attachments or 25 YouTube videos. By comparison, less than 2 per cent of O2’s other UK customers on monthly payment contracts use more than 25MB a month.
However, the O2 research found that customers who have Nokia’s N95, the Finnish handset maker’s nearest equivalent to the iPhone, which runs on 3G networks, access markedly less data compared with those using the Apple device.
“Here’s absolute proof that if you get the proposition right, customers will use data,” said Mr Key, who reached a deal with Apple for O2 to be the exclusive UK network operator for the iPhone.
60% of O2 iPhone users are downloading more than 25Mb a month with EDGE and WiFi. While less than 2% of O2's other smartphone users download the equivalent with 3G phones.
You took that in a different way than I'd intended. There is always good and bad press written about Apple's products. Of course all of the media attention (good or bad) helps bring attention. I would say for the most part Apple products have been successful because they work well. Good press wouldn't help much if the product was crap.
Most all of the press Apple has received over the past three years, or so, has been good.
It doesn't matter how good your products are. If people don't know that, it doesn't matter. That's what ads are for. If Apple can get free publicity, then that's even better. It creates a demand.
Matthew Key the incoming chief executive of O2 Europe says 200,000 iPhones should be sold in the UK by early January, which is in line with his expectations since the November 9 launch, although some analysts claim his target is conservative. Gartner, the research firm, says sales of up to 400,000 should be possible.
In the near term, the iPhone may help Mr Key in the tough task of trying to maintain O2?s position as the UK?s largest mobile operator. Vodafone is resurgent, but Mr Key highlights how the iPhone is enabling O2 to steal customers from rivals. About 60 per cent of iPhone users are new to O2.
Again I would say they did not give sales of other phones to help give the iPhone numbers a context, but O2 sounds pleased.
Buyers of Apple?s iPhone have turned out to be voracious users of electronic mail and other data services, giving network operators hope that the much-hyped device will finally unlock billions of dollars in mobile advertising revenue.
After years of false dawns for operators, the use of mobile phones for web surfing is on the verge of becoming widespread in Europe and the US, and iPhone research by O2 shows the device is acting as an important catalyst for such activity.
Matthew Key, who becomes chief executive of O2 Europe next month, told the Financial Times that 60 per cent of the company?s iPhone customers in the UK were sending or receiving more than 25 megabytes of data a month, the equivalent of 7,500 e-mails without attachments or 25 YouTube videos. By comparison, less than 2 per cent of O2?s other UK customers on monthly payment contracts use more than 25MB a month.
However, the O2 research found that customers who have Nokia?s N95, the Finnish handset maker?s nearest equivalent to the iPhone, which runs on 3G networks, access markedly less data compared with those using the Apple device.
?Here?s absolute proof that if you get the proposition right, customers will use data,? said Mr Key, who reached a deal with Apple for O2 to be the exclusive UK network operator for the iPhone.
60% of O2 iPhone users are downloading more than 25Mb a month with EDGE and WiFi. While less than 2% of O2's other smartphone users download the equivalent with 3G phones.
I've already read all that stuff. We'll se when it happens.
If Apple can achieve 400 thousand phone sales there by then that's good. If it's only 200 thousand, it's ok.
But, what the users do with the phones when they get them may be good for the companies selling them, IF it leads to more services being bought from them, but it doesn't say anything about sales itself.
If Apple can achieve 400 thousand phone sales there by then that's good. If it's only 200 thousand, it's ok.
Keep in mind too that these are activations reported by O2. Between UK, France, Germany we should at least see 1 million activations. Without a doubt there are some number of people in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and the other 41 Euro countries have bought iPhones to be unlocked. As well as the wider world grey market.
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But, what the users do with the phones when they get them may be good for the companies selling them, IF it leads to more services being bought from them, but it doesn't say anything about sales itself.
This goes to the argument of people not buying the iPhone because of 3G. According to O2 iPhone users are downloading far more data on EDGE and WiFi than all other phones with 3G.
Keep in mind too that these are activations reported by O2. Between UK, France, Germany we should at least see 1 million activations. Without a doubt there are some number of people in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and the other 41 Euro countries have bought iPhones to be unlocked. As well as the wider world grey market.
Those numbers were sales, I believe. The amount of activations vs sales won't be known until both O2 and Apple report their figures, right now, the numbers are no more than a guess.
And now, you are the one making number out of thin air. At least I'm trying to go by reports.
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This goes to the argument of people not buying the iPhone because of 3G. According to O2 iPhone users are downloading far more data on EDGE and WiFi than all other phones with 3G.
That doesn't mean much. The people buying the iPhone are buying it BECAUSE they want to go online. Users of other phones may not care as much. That still doesn't mean that lack of 3g hasn't prevented many more sales.
And now, you are the one making number out of thin air. At least I'm trying to go by reports.
Its a guess but its not an unrealistic stretch by any means.
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That doesn't mean much. The people buying the iPhone are buying it BECAUSE they want to go online. Users of other phones may not care as much. That still doesn't mean that lack of 3g hasn't prevented many more sales.
Now you are just being stubborn Mel. Pretty much the only advantage of 3G is sending data and the internet. Calling and texting don't require that much bandwidth. There is no other purpose to 3G outside of saying you have a 3G phone but rarely use it.
I'm sure their are a number of people who will not buy an iPhone until it has 3G, just as their are a number who will. People who have 3G but rarely use it will notice that people with iPhones are actually using all of its features.
What this does mean is that even on a slower network or one that isn't as ubiquitous people are actually getting more real use out of data and internet than they previously had.
Now you are just being stubborn Mel. Pretty much the only advantage of 3G is sending data and the internet. Calling and texting don't require that much bandwidth. There is no other purpose to 3G outside of saying you have a 3G phone but rarely use it.
The smartphones that have 3G have many other features as well. People don't have to want to use their internet services all the time to want those phones. Better screens, better keyboards, third party programs. Those are just some of the other reasons to buy a phone that also has 3G. And just because people may not have bought a phone specifically to go surfing doesn't mean that when they want to do it, they want to slog along as slowly as possible. With my phone, I want to get in and out quickly.
I'm sure their are a number of people who will not buy an iPhone until it has 3G, just as their are a number who will. People who have 3G but rarely use it will notice that people with iPhones are actually using all of its features. [/quote]
A fairly good number.
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What this does mean is that even on a slower network or one that isn't as ubiquitous people are actually getting more real use out of data and internet than they previously had.
One reason is because for many of them, even with Apple's cut adding to the cost, it's still a lower cost service than they've seen before.
The smartphones that have 3G have many other features as well. People don't have to want to use their internet services all the time to want those phones. Better screens, better keyboards, third party programs. Those are just some of the other reasons to buy a phone that also has 3G.
So people buy 3G phones not only for 3G but for screens, keyboards, third party apps. The iPhone has a better screen than most phones, the keyboard in horizontal view has larger keys than mechanical phones, apps are designed to have similar functionality of desktop apps, websites designed specifically for the iPhone UI. In-spite of this a great number of people want 3G even if they won't often use it.
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they want to slog along as slowly as possible
I doubt the advanced people of the UK would have the patience to use over 25Mb if they were slogging as slowly as possible. I also doubt people in the US would use mobile safari more than all windows phones combined if they had to slog as slowly as possible. Google mobile apps saw a 50% spike in use after the June iPhone launch.
60% of O2 iPhone users are downloading more than 25Mb a month with EDGE and WiFi. While less than 2% of O2's other smartphone users download the equivalent with 3G phones.
Nice spin but that's not what the article says. It's less than 2% of all monthly contract phones on O2 including non-smartphones and non-3G. Even still, 2% of O2's monthly contract users is probably still more than all iPhone users. Not all of the other phones will be 3G either. Many will be wifi enabled too.
A secondary point is O2's data charges which prior to the iPhone were very expensive bolt on extras. They're cheaper now but optional still. Not everyone with a contract will bolt on data, want it or indeed need it. With the iPhone you've no choice - you've paid for it - may as well use it even if it's slow.
It's entirely possible there's still more users with 3G data phones accessing more than 25Mb a month than iPhone users. On the other hand the big screen on the iphone probably makes wanting to use data more likely. Imagine what it'd be like if it had 3G.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Keep in mind too that these are activations reported by O2. Between UK, France, Germany we should at least see 1 million activations. Without a doubt there are some number of people in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and the other 41 Euro countries have bought iPhones to be unlocked. As well as the wider world grey market.
I'd be surprised if they see 1 million in Europe personally. The figures weren't sales or activations, they were sales projections.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
This goes to the argument of people not buying the iPhone because of 3G. According to O2 iPhone users are downloading far more data on EDGE and WiFi than all other phones with 3G.
I'm not sure how they'd even measure wifi data unless it's through the Cloud hotspots. EDGE access barely exists outside London. Again, it's an interesting datapoint but without context it's useless.
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Originally Posted by melgross
That doesn't mean much. The people buying the iPhone are buying it BECAUSE they want to go online. Users of other phones may not care as much. That still doesn't mean that lack of 3g hasn't prevented many more sales.
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by melgross
The smartphones that have 3G have many other features as well. People don't have to want to use their internet services all the time to want those phones. Better screens, better keyboards, third party programs. Those are just some of the other reasons to buy a phone that also has 3G. And just because people may not have bought a phone specifically to go surfing doesn't mean that when they want to do it, they want to slog along as slowly as possible. With my phone, I want to get in and out quickly.
Exactly. And, many people just buy contract phones to get an expensive phone for free even if they aren't going to use half the features.
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Originally Posted by melgross
One reason is because for many of them, even with Apple's cut adding to the cost, it's still a lower cost service than they've seen before.
You have to be of a particular customer type for it to be worthwhile. If you don't talk much, don't text much, don't have home/office wifi, don't mind slow internet, don't tether your phone as a modem and live near a Cloud hotspot then the service is quite good value.
So people buy 3G phones not only for 3G but for screens, keyboards, third party apps. The iPhone has a better screen than most phones, the keyboard in horizontal view has larger keys than mechanical phones, apps are designed to have similar functionality of desktop apps, websites designed specifically for the iPhone UI. In-spite of this a great number of people want 3G even if they won't often use it.
Yup. Better to have the choice than not though.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I doubt the advanced people of the UK would have the patience to use over 25Mb if they were slogging as slowly as possible. I also doubt people in the US would use mobile safari more than all windows phones combined if they had to slog as slowly as possible. Google mobile apps saw a 50% spike in use after the June iPhone launch.
Yup. Add a tiny number of new phones into a tiny market (America is about 10% of smartphone use) and you'll double your usage figures. Sounds impressive but it's not. It just shows how crap WinMo is.
Comments
I never said that 200,000 sales in two days was required. To my thinking, if the numbers were double what they were, it would have been pretty good. As they are, they are disappointing. I simply think that Apple and the operators are putting a good face on it., I'm not saying that it's a disaster either.
I don't see any precedent outside of the US iPhone launch, that a phone must launch a certain amount of units to be proven a long term sales success. The sales numbers may be a media disappointment proportionate to the hype Apple has built for it. But I doubt it is a financial disappointment for Apple or its partners. For them that is what most matters.
It's not worth beating the dead horse anymore Teno... spin is pointless. Apple did not have a good European launch, except in France. So why argue on and on and on when it's obvious that no one is buying what you're spinning?
Those are arbitrary numbers with little context. All those quotes say is that the Euro launch sales were less than the US launch sales. That has no bearing on the real profitability of the iPhone or how well it competes against its competition.
Starting to understand the difference between a superfluous feature and one you really do need to compete well in a tough market? Alrighty then. That makes sense... oh wait, no, it doesn't. Because 3G isn't an ease-of-use issue at all, it's just a faster way to transmit data. And because most of the other features mentioned are already quite easy to use.
I never said any of those were superfluous. Windows Media phones have all of these functions you describe. The iPhone has outsold them all in its first quarter of US sales.
Those features are not necessarily easy to use on every phone. Generally as more are added they get piled into sub-menus.
Reading these two quotes back-to-back, they appear to contradict each other. On the one hand, we have Teno saying " I don't think it was an accident that everything with the iPod worked out so well", meaning Apple is halfway to being a tech Nostradamus and can see the future accurately.
I've never said Apple was infallible. Nor have I ever predicted the success of the iPhone. I've only pointed out how arm chair quarterbacks can criticize Apple strategies that end up working phenomenally well.
Apple could have easily repositioned the Cube. Killing it shows Apple likely had no future plans for the Cube.
If the movie studios and television networks had signed on to iTunes the way music had, Apple TV would be a different story today. What Apple TV lacks is a wide variety of easily accessible content. There are several ways Apple could change that situation. I agree attempting to tie it to iTunes like the iPod is mistake.
I don't see any precedent outside of the US iPhone launch, that a phone must launch a certain amount of units to be proven a long term sales success. The sales numbers may be a media disappointment proportionate to the hype Apple has built for it. But I doubt it is a financial disappointment for Apple or its partners. For them that is what most matters.
Those are arbitrary numbers with little context. All those quotes say is that the Euro launch sales were less than the US launch sales. That has no bearing on the real profitability of the iPhone or how well it competes against its competition.
We can only go by what we've seen before, and what we're told is good.
If you simply don't want to think that this was disappointing, then fine,
But just realize that you have nothing to back up your contention that the sales were good. At least we're using numbers, you're not.
Somehow you want to think it's all just dandy.
We can only go by what we've seen before, and what we're told is good. But just realize that you have nothing to back up your contention that the sales were good. At least we're using numbers, you're not.
That's what I'm getting at. I cannot see where a benchmark has been set for what is good and what is bad. It has only been said that what the iPhone sold is bad. Besides the US iPhone launch they did not cite any other phone with good sales to give context to why the iPhone sales are bad.
That's generally what you do to qualify bad sales. You look at what competing products are doing and you look to see if the product is making a profit. That is missing from these numbers.
Somehow you want to think it's all just dandy.
Actually I've never given an opinion to whether Euro iPhone sales were good or bad. I've challenged those who said they were bad. I've said because the launch was weeks before Christmas we have to wait for the end of the quarter to get a clear picture to how it is going.
I don't see any precedent outside of the US iPhone launch, that a phone must launch a certain amount of units to be proven a long term sales success. The sales numbers may be a media disappointment proportionate to the hype Apple has built for it. But I doubt it is a financial disappointment for Apple or its partners. For them that is what most matters.
Those are arbitrary numbers with little context. All those quotes say is that the Euro launch sales were less than the US launch sales. That has no bearing on the real profitability of the iPhone or how well it competes against its competition.
LOL. While its been a bit tragicomic to see you lurch from justification to justification over Apple's lackluster Euro launch ("The numbers will improve!"... "Apple was never going to sell that many iPhones in Europe anyway!".... "Half of worldwide sales will come from the US anyway!".... "The numbers aren't actually bad!"... "We'll still be profitable!"), fact is, Teno, the Euro launch numbers are disappointing, no matter how you slice it.
The rest coming from you, as usual, is just...
I never said any of those were superfluous. Windows Media phones have all of these functions you describe. The iPhone has outsold them all in its first quarter of US sales.
Wow, what a low bar to set. Windows mobile has 6% of the smartphone market, and 0.6% of the overall cellphone market. Wheeee.
Those features are not necessarily easy to use on every phone. Generally as more are added they get piled into sub-menus.
Don't be silly. Let's take the two most cited missing features, 3G and MMS, for example.
3G isn't even an ease-of-use issue, as you've been told before. Its just a faster way to transmit data. Next.
Now, MMS? Easy to use already. The process on my nothing-special midrange phone:
- Open pic
- Select Options. The very first option? 'Send'.
- Select Picture Message.
- Select the sendee
- Type in your accompanying text (optional)
- Hit Send.
WOW, so very difficult!
Teno, the Euros aren't saying "Oh Apple, please SAVE US from the tyrannical maze that is sending an MMS message!".
Get it? Got it? Good.
I've never said Apple was infallible. Nor have I ever predicted the success of the iPhone. I've only pointed out how arm chair quarterbacks can criticize Apple strategies that end up working phenomenally well.
Stop refighting the iPod War, Teno. It's just not that helpful here. It's counterproductive actually, because if Apple starts believing their own press clippings, they're going to have a very long, hard time of it with the iPhone overseas.
Apple could have easily repositioned the Cube. Killing it shows Apple likely had no future plans for the Cube.
So much for your 'Apple as Nostradamus' theory then. Apple should've been that one coming, rather than pushing a dead-end product.
If the movie studios and television networks had signed on to iTunes the way music had, Apple TV would be a different story today. What Apple TV lacks is a wide variety of easily accessible content. There are several ways Apple could change that situation. I agree attempting to tie it to iTunes like the iPod is mistake.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Face it, Apple TV can't really take off, because the one piece of functionality that would allow it do so (DVR) can't be included because it'd cannibalize iTunes Store sales and also piss off the very content providers who are vital to the iTunes Store.
The other alternative is to make Apple TV cheap enough so that its price is in line with its limited functionality, but then Apple wouldn't get their fat margins on it and they'd kill it. Game over.
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Somehow you want to think it's all just dandy.
Yup. And sadly for Teno, spin isn't what's needed here. Companies believing their own spin is actually what gets many of them in trouble.
Much more often, what works best is a sober, realistic assessment of both what's going well and what's not, and some timely adjustments in strategy where needed. But to do that, you first have to be willing to acknowledge that things are less than hunky-dory across the board.
Otherwise, you become the proverbial 'dinosaur' of the corporate world... you get whacked in the tail, and then a few months later your brain goes, "Ouch". Often too late to respond effectively.
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That's what I'm getting at. I cannot see where a benchmark has been set for what is good and what is bad. It has only been said that what the iPhone sold is bad. Besides the US iPhone launch they did not cite any other phone with good sales to give context to why the iPhone sales are bad.
That's generally what you do to qualify bad sales. You look at what competing products are doing and you look to see if the product is making a profit. That is missing from these numbers.
Except for the Razr, no other phone has received so much press before it came out. Apple's products are now expected to do much better than expectations, or they are a failure.
I read an article that said that Apple has received, this year, enough free press to equal $700 million in advertising. This lifts those expectations sky high. If the product doesn't meet those expectations, it's no good.
We just had our big holiday party Monday, and a friend had bought an iPhone a month ago. He loves the phone, except for the lack of 3G—way too slow, he says, and the vertical keyboard. He's a big guy, with big fingers.
These are two areas Apple has to fix. Europeans aren't stupid. They know what they want, and they're willing, for the most part, to wait for it.
My hope is that they aren't passing on the phone for others that do have what they want now.
Actually I've never given an opinion to whether Euro iPhone sales were good or bad. I've challenged those who said they were bad. I've said because the launch was weeks before Christmas we have to wait for the end of the quarter to get a clear picture to how it is going.
Well, your posts don't come across that way. you read like a cheerleader for sure.
So much for your 'Apple as Nostradamus' theory then. Apple should've been that one coming, rather than pushing a dead-end product.
Instead of sticking with the substance of what I say you attempt to come up with these obviously sensational over the top versions of what I've said. It doesn't really help your argument.
A lot of people loved the Cube, it would have sold well had Apple repositioned it, I'm sure most company would want to have that type of failure. I'm sure there is an interesting story as to what happened with the Cube, hopefully one day someone from Apple will tell it.
Yup. And sadly for Teno, spin isn't what's needed here. Companies believing their own spin is actually what gets many of them in trouble. Much more often, what works best is a sober, realistic assessment of both what's going well and what's not, and some timely adjustments in strategy where needed. But to do that, you first have to be willing to acknowledge that things are less than hunky-dory across the board.
You posted numbers that had no correlation to the wider mobile phone sales or gave any evidence if those sales are profitable for Apple or its partners. Taking all of that into account is a sober realistic assessment.
Looking at sales numbers and comparing that to the unusually high sales that same product had in another market to justify calling it a failure is not a sober realistic assessment.
Except for the Razr, no other phone has received so much press before it came out. Apple's products are now expected to do much better than expectations, or they are a failure.
That is all purely hype and no substance. What the press says has no relation to how well Apple products are selling or how profitable they are. Seeing as Apple stock has continued to do well the street is paying this no attention.
Well, your posts don't come across that way. you read like a cheerleader for sure.
We don't have enough evidence to say how well the phone is doing. I'm actually surprised Mel you will take these sensationalist reports for real data. I'm surprised you don't agree that we should wait till the end of the quarter to get the real picture.
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That is all purely hype and no substance. What the press says has no relation to how well Apple products are selling or how profitable they are. Seeing as Apple stock has continued to do well the street is paying this no attention.
That's ridiculous, of course it does. People don't buy in a vacuum. Enormous press, when it's good, has a very large influence on what people buy. Apple knows this quite well. so do those in the industry who have expressed admiration for Apple in being able to garner it.
But, it can't guarantee sales. We also don't know what the press is in other markets. I'd e curious as to what it has been in Europe.
We don't have enough evidence to say how well the phone is doing. I'm actually surprised Mel you will take these sensationalist reports for real data. I'm surprised you don't agree that we should wait till the end of the quarter to get the real picture.
I'm just using the numbers that we all have before us.
When the iPhone sold so well here for the first three days, those numbers were used as evidence that the phone did very well.
The numbers in Europe can also be used as evidence that it didn't do as well there.
Of course we need to see later figures as well, but if the original figures were better, then we would all be jumping up and down.
These are two areas Apple has to fix. Europeans aren't stupid. They know what they want, and they're willing, for the most part, to wait for it.
Not if you're aged 11 and 13 and want bluetooth transfers and MMS NOW.
Bought them a Sony Ericsson W580i and an S500. Both fab phones, especially the W580i. Both about £100 unlocked, no contract.
Not if you're aged 11 and 13 and want bluetooth transfers and MMS NOW.
Bought them a Sony Ericsson W580i and an S500. Both fab phones, especially the W580i. Both about £100 unlocked, no contract.
Well, 11 and 13 year olds aren't patient about anything. Thank heavens my daughter is now 16. It gets better slowly, but it does get better.
That's ridiculous, of course it does. People don't buy in a vacuum. Enormous press, when it's good, has a very large influence on what people buy. Apple knows this quite well. so do those in the industry who have expressed admiration for Apple in being able to garner it.
You took that in a different way than I'd intended. There is always good and bad press written about Apple's products. Of course all of the media attention (good or bad) helps bring attention. I would say for the most part Apple products have been successful because they work well. Good press wouldn't help much if the product was crap.
I'm just using the numbers that we all have before us. The numbers in Europe can also be used as evidence that it didn't do as well there. ]Of course we need to see later figures as well, but if the original figures were better, then we would all be jumping up and down.
Here are some new numbers.
Financial Times: iPhone key to O2 growth
Matthew Key the incoming chief executive of O2 Europe says 200,000 iPhones should be sold in the UK by early January, which is in line with his expectations since the November 9 launch, although some analysts claim his target is conservative. Gartner, the research firm, says sales of up to 400,000 should be possible.
In the near term, the iPhone may help Mr Key in the tough task of trying to maintain O2’s position as the UK’s largest mobile operator. Vodafone is resurgent, but Mr Key highlights how the iPhone is enabling O2 to steal customers from rivals. About 60 per cent of iPhone users are new to O2.
Again I would say they did not give sales of other phones to help give the iPhone numbers a context, but O2 sounds pleased.
Financial Times: iPhone users raise network hopes
Buyers of Apple’s iPhone have turned out to be voracious users of electronic mail and other data services, giving network operators hope that the much-hyped device will finally unlock billions of dollars in mobile advertising revenue.
After years of false dawns for operators, the use of mobile phones for web surfing is on the verge of becoming widespread in Europe and the US, and iPhone research by O2 shows the device is acting as an important catalyst for such activity.
Matthew Key, who becomes chief executive of O2 Europe next month, told the Financial Times that 60 per cent of the company’s iPhone customers in the UK were sending or receiving more than 25 megabytes of data a month, the equivalent of 7,500 e-mails without attachments or 25 YouTube videos. By comparison, less than 2 per cent of O2’s other UK customers on monthly payment contracts use more than 25MB a month.
However, the O2 research found that customers who have Nokia’s N95, the Finnish handset maker’s nearest equivalent to the iPhone, which runs on 3G networks, access markedly less data compared with those using the Apple device.
“Here’s absolute proof that if you get the proposition right, customers will use data,” said Mr Key, who reached a deal with Apple for O2 to be the exclusive UK network operator for the iPhone.
60% of O2 iPhone users are downloading more than 25Mb a month with EDGE and WiFi. While less than 2% of O2's other smartphone users download the equivalent with 3G phones.
You took that in a different way than I'd intended. There is always good and bad press written about Apple's products. Of course all of the media attention (good or bad) helps bring attention. I would say for the most part Apple products have been successful because they work well. Good press wouldn't help much if the product was crap.
Most all of the press Apple has received over the past three years, or so, has been good.
It doesn't matter how good your products are. If people don't know that, it doesn't matter. That's what ads are for. If Apple can get free publicity, then that's even better. It creates a demand.
Here are some new numbers.
Financial Times: iPhone key to O2 growth
Matthew Key the incoming chief executive of O2 Europe says 200,000 iPhones should be sold in the UK by early January, which is in line with his expectations since the November 9 launch, although some analysts claim his target is conservative. Gartner, the research firm, says sales of up to 400,000 should be possible.
In the near term, the iPhone may help Mr Key in the tough task of trying to maintain O2?s position as the UK?s largest mobile operator. Vodafone is resurgent, but Mr Key highlights how the iPhone is enabling O2 to steal customers from rivals. About 60 per cent of iPhone users are new to O2.
Again I would say they did not give sales of other phones to help give the iPhone numbers a context, but O2 sounds pleased.
Financial Times: iPhone users raise network hopes
Buyers of Apple?s iPhone have turned out to be voracious users of electronic mail and other data services, giving network operators hope that the much-hyped device will finally unlock billions of dollars in mobile advertising revenue.
After years of false dawns for operators, the use of mobile phones for web surfing is on the verge of becoming widespread in Europe and the US, and iPhone research by O2 shows the device is acting as an important catalyst for such activity.
Matthew Key, who becomes chief executive of O2 Europe next month, told the Financial Times that 60 per cent of the company?s iPhone customers in the UK were sending or receiving more than 25 megabytes of data a month, the equivalent of 7,500 e-mails without attachments or 25 YouTube videos. By comparison, less than 2 per cent of O2?s other UK customers on monthly payment contracts use more than 25MB a month.
However, the O2 research found that customers who have Nokia?s N95, the Finnish handset maker?s nearest equivalent to the iPhone, which runs on 3G networks, access markedly less data compared with those using the Apple device.
?Here?s absolute proof that if you get the proposition right, customers will use data,? said Mr Key, who reached a deal with Apple for O2 to be the exclusive UK network operator for the iPhone.
60% of O2 iPhone users are downloading more than 25Mb a month with EDGE and WiFi. While less than 2% of O2's other smartphone users download the equivalent with 3G phones.
I've already read all that stuff. We'll se when it happens.
If Apple can achieve 400 thousand phone sales there by then that's good. If it's only 200 thousand, it's ok.
But, what the users do with the phones when they get them may be good for the companies selling them, IF it leads to more services being bought from them, but it doesn't say anything about sales itself.
If Apple can achieve 400 thousand phone sales there by then that's good. If it's only 200 thousand, it's ok.
Keep in mind too that these are activations reported by O2. Between UK, France, Germany we should at least see 1 million activations. Without a doubt there are some number of people in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and the other 41 Euro countries have bought iPhones to be unlocked. As well as the wider world grey market.
But, what the users do with the phones when they get them may be good for the companies selling them, IF it leads to more services being bought from them, but it doesn't say anything about sales itself.
This goes to the argument of people not buying the iPhone because of 3G. According to O2 iPhone users are downloading far more data on EDGE and WiFi than all other phones with 3G.
Keep in mind too that these are activations reported by O2. Between UK, France, Germany we should at least see 1 million activations. Without a doubt there are some number of people in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and the other 41 Euro countries have bought iPhones to be unlocked. As well as the wider world grey market.
Those numbers were sales, I believe. The amount of activations vs sales won't be known until both O2 and Apple report their figures, right now, the numbers are no more than a guess.
And now, you are the one making number out of thin air. At least I'm trying to go by reports.
This goes to the argument of people not buying the iPhone because of 3G. According to O2 iPhone users are downloading far more data on EDGE and WiFi than all other phones with 3G.
That doesn't mean much. The people buying the iPhone are buying it BECAUSE they want to go online. Users of other phones may not care as much. That still doesn't mean that lack of 3g hasn't prevented many more sales.
And now, you are the one making number out of thin air. At least I'm trying to go by reports.
Its a guess but its not an unrealistic stretch by any means.
That doesn't mean much. The people buying the iPhone are buying it BECAUSE they want to go online. Users of other phones may not care as much. That still doesn't mean that lack of 3g hasn't prevented many more sales.
Now you are just being stubborn Mel. Pretty much the only advantage of 3G is sending data and the internet. Calling and texting don't require that much bandwidth. There is no other purpose to 3G outside of saying you have a 3G phone but rarely use it.
I'm sure their are a number of people who will not buy an iPhone until it has 3G, just as their are a number who will. People who have 3G but rarely use it will notice that people with iPhones are actually using all of its features.
What this does mean is that even on a slower network or one that isn't as ubiquitous people are actually getting more real use out of data and internet than they previously had.
Now you are just being stubborn Mel. Pretty much the only advantage of 3G is sending data and the internet. Calling and texting don't require that much bandwidth. There is no other purpose to 3G outside of saying you have a 3G phone but rarely use it.
The smartphones that have 3G have many other features as well. People don't have to want to use their internet services all the time to want those phones. Better screens, better keyboards, third party programs. Those are just some of the other reasons to buy a phone that also has 3G. And just because people may not have bought a phone specifically to go surfing doesn't mean that when they want to do it, they want to slog along as slowly as possible. With my phone, I want to get in and out quickly.
I'm sure their are a number of people who will not buy an iPhone until it has 3G, just as their are a number who will. People who have 3G but rarely use it will notice that people with iPhones are actually using all of its features. [/quote]
A fairly good number.
What this does mean is that even on a slower network or one that isn't as ubiquitous people are actually getting more real use out of data and internet than they previously had.
One reason is because for many of them, even with Apple's cut adding to the cost, it's still a lower cost service than they've seen before.
The smartphones that have 3G have many other features as well. People don't have to want to use their internet services all the time to want those phones. Better screens, better keyboards, third party programs. Those are just some of the other reasons to buy a phone that also has 3G.
So people buy 3G phones not only for 3G but for screens, keyboards, third party apps. The iPhone has a better screen than most phones, the keyboard in horizontal view has larger keys than mechanical phones, apps are designed to have similar functionality of desktop apps, websites designed specifically for the iPhone UI. In-spite of this a great number of people want 3G even if they won't often use it.
they want to slog along as slowly as possible
I doubt the advanced people of the UK would have the patience to use over 25Mb if they were slogging as slowly as possible. I also doubt people in the US would use mobile safari more than all windows phones combined if they had to slog as slowly as possible. Google mobile apps saw a 50% spike in use after the June iPhone launch.
60% of O2 iPhone users are downloading more than 25Mb a month with EDGE and WiFi. While less than 2% of O2's other smartphone users download the equivalent with 3G phones.
Nice spin but that's not what the article says. It's less than 2% of all monthly contract phones on O2 including non-smartphones and non-3G. Even still, 2% of O2's monthly contract users is probably still more than all iPhone users. Not all of the other phones will be 3G either. Many will be wifi enabled too.
A secondary point is O2's data charges which prior to the iPhone were very expensive bolt on extras. They're cheaper now but optional still. Not everyone with a contract will bolt on data, want it or indeed need it. With the iPhone you've no choice - you've paid for it - may as well use it even if it's slow.
It's entirely possible there's still more users with 3G data phones accessing more than 25Mb a month than iPhone users. On the other hand the big screen on the iphone probably makes wanting to use data more likely. Imagine what it'd be like if it had 3G.
Keep in mind too that these are activations reported by O2. Between UK, France, Germany we should at least see 1 million activations. Without a doubt there are some number of people in Italy, Spain, Ireland, Austria, and the other 41 Euro countries have bought iPhones to be unlocked. As well as the wider world grey market.
I'd be surprised if they see 1 million in Europe personally. The figures weren't sales or activations, they were sales projections.
This goes to the argument of people not buying the iPhone because of 3G. According to O2 iPhone users are downloading far more data on EDGE and WiFi than all other phones with 3G.
I'm not sure how they'd even measure wifi data unless it's through the Cloud hotspots. EDGE access barely exists outside London. Again, it's an interesting datapoint but without context it's useless.
That doesn't mean much. The people buying the iPhone are buying it BECAUSE they want to go online. Users of other phones may not care as much. That still doesn't mean that lack of 3g hasn't prevented many more sales.
Exactly.
The smartphones that have 3G have many other features as well. People don't have to want to use their internet services all the time to want those phones. Better screens, better keyboards, third party programs. Those are just some of the other reasons to buy a phone that also has 3G. And just because people may not have bought a phone specifically to go surfing doesn't mean that when they want to do it, they want to slog along as slowly as possible. With my phone, I want to get in and out quickly.
Exactly. And, many people just buy contract phones to get an expensive phone for free even if they aren't going to use half the features.
One reason is because for many of them, even with Apple's cut adding to the cost, it's still a lower cost service than they've seen before.
You have to be of a particular customer type for it to be worthwhile. If you don't talk much, don't text much, don't have home/office wifi, don't mind slow internet, don't tether your phone as a modem and live near a Cloud hotspot then the service is quite good value.
So people buy 3G phones not only for 3G but for screens, keyboards, third party apps. The iPhone has a better screen than most phones, the keyboard in horizontal view has larger keys than mechanical phones, apps are designed to have similar functionality of desktop apps, websites designed specifically for the iPhone UI. In-spite of this a great number of people want 3G even if they won't often use it.
Yup. Better to have the choice than not though.
I doubt the advanced people of the UK would have the patience to use over 25Mb if they were slogging as slowly as possible. I also doubt people in the US would use mobile safari more than all windows phones combined if they had to slog as slowly as possible. Google mobile apps saw a 50% spike in use after the June iPhone launch.
Yup. Add a tiny number of new phones into a tiny market (America is about 10% of smartphone use) and you'll double your usage figures. Sounds impressive but it's not. It just shows how crap WinMo is.