Apple leaves would-be iPhone developers hanging for the moment

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  • Reply 101 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    With all due respect, you still haven't shown any differences between what you received, and what registered developers have received, other than the beta ver 2 software.



    That is a straw-man, I cannot describe how an existing product in-hand differs from a product unseen.



    But, some seem to be able opine on both, unseen!
  • Reply 102 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Exactly! You make my point! The Simulator is supposed to fill the void until the version 2 software (ability to test on the real devices) is generally available-- allowing the "unaccepted developers" to begin writing and testing code, now, on the simulator; and later, on the device, when the ver 2 (or 1.2 beta) software becomes available.



    You don't have a clue what you're talking about.

    First, please show us where Apple says the SDK will work fine for a generic off the shelf phone, without any upgrade towards 2.0.

    Second, please explain how the SDK doesn't take advantage of, or rely upon, all the neat stuff that iPhone 2.0 will have but yet allow developers to build towards THAT version of the phone?

    Third, please show us ANYTHING from Apple that says that the SDK was released to fill any void between now and the June release.



    Get real, stop making stuff up.

    The SDK will show you how to do a lot of things, but it won't be as good as it gets, if you're not in the program.

    In the meantime, do the best you can and quit bitching like babies.

    They didn't have to go as far as they did, so enjoy what you to.
  • Reply 103 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wbrasington View Post


    Second, please explain how the SDK doesn't take advantage of, or rely upon, all the neat stuff that iPhone 2.0 will have but yet allow developers to build towards THAT version of the phone?



    Mmmm... I want to write a game that uses the accelerometers and Open GL ES. Neither of these neat features* are supported by the Simulator. You can't even compile the program and deploy it to the Simulator... so, you can write the code and look at it, but you can't see if/how it works and performs.



    * or the camera, microphone, locator



    Those are facts, not opinions!
  • Reply 104 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Mmmm... I want to write a game that uses the accelerometers and Open GL ES. Neither of these neat features* are supported by the Simulator. You can't even compile the program and deploy it to the Simulator... so, you can write the code and look at it, but you can't see if/how it works and performs.



    * or the camera, microphone, locator



    Those are facts, not opinions!



    I didn't say you couldn't write something that use the hardware in the phone.

    Try splaining how the new features that are added in 2.0, that are NOT in 1.0, will be useful to you in the SDK.



    Can't?



    Thought so.



    Move on.....
  • Reply 105 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wbrasington View Post


    I didn't say you couldn't write something that use the hardware in the phone.

    Try splaining how the new features that are added in 2.0, that are NOT in 1.0, will be useful to you in the SDK.



    Can't?



    Thought so.



    Move on.....





    What does that have to do with anything?



    The title of this thread is:



    AppleInsider > iPhone > Apple leaves would-be iPhone developers hanging for the moment



    I happen to be a would-be iPhone developer who is hanging at the moment. All of my posts have tried to expain why.
  • Reply 106 of 134
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    That is a straw-man, I cannot describe how an existing product in-hand differs from a product unseen.



    But, some seem to be able opine on both, unseen!



    This is the point I'm trying to make. You don't know if there is any difference. It's quite possible that those who are registered have about the same problems at this time.



    This is an early look. It's possible the ver 2 beta software helps, and it's possible, that it too, being in beta, is in the same shape as the simulator. Apple could very well have not yet finished the kit.
  • Reply 107 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    What does that have to do with anything?



    The title of this thread is:



    AppleInsider > iPhone > Apple leaves would-be iPhone developers hanging for the moment



    I happen to be a would-be iPhone developer who is hanging at the moment. All of my posts have tried to expain why.



    I'm not responding the the "thread".

    I responded to your post.



    You seem to indicate that you think the SDK should work without you getting any upgrades to the phone.

    In other words, the SDK (even though the S stands for software) should work with the current hardware even though you can't upgrade the software in the phone to the level it will need to be, in June.



    Think about it.



    The iPhone 2.0 will have very different SOFTWARE in it, in June.

    The features we all saw, the mail, the other stuff pushing and polling and other game playing features with the acceleromter require that something MAY need to be upgraded in the OS running on the hardware. (the 2.0 version of the iPhone is a software upgrade, NOT hardware)



    So YOU want to complain the SDK doesn't work with the old 1.0 OS on the hardware, when clearly you need the refresh the OS in the hardware in order to take advantage of all the stuff you're supposed to be able to do with it.



    So stop complaining, if you're not in the program, then you can build stuff with th SDK and play around. But if you're not in the program you don't have EVERYTHING you need.

    And it's NOT a hardware problem. Included with the June release is a OS 2.0 software upgrade to the hardware which you NEED in order to make it run right.



    Since you can't have that, don't complain the SDK doesn't work because THAT's not the problem. It's like complaining you're running Windows 95 on your desktop and complain you can't build applications for Vista. You don't have the OS to run it, right?

    Well your 1.0 iPhone (or picka version less than 2.0) doesn't have all the hooks it would need.

    And they ain't gonna send 100,000 copies of that out into the phone world so get over it....



    You may be a software developer, but you'll have to do with what you can make happen with the SDK and the 1.x version of the iPhone world until you either get inside the program or June rolls around and they release the iPhone 2.0 pack.



    But let's all stop balling about it, this is how this has to work.

    It's not any different than other beta programs I've been in, you're either in officially, or reading a lot of stuff and playing with pieces of demos.

    You're lucky to have the pieces you have, every program I've been in at MicroSoft would'a kept you in the dark until June.
  • Reply 108 of 134
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,334member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wbrasington View Post


    I'm not responding the the "thread".

    I responded to your post.



    You seem to indicate that you think the SDK should work without you getting any upgrades to the phone.

    In other words, the SDK (even though the S stands for software) should work with the current hardware even though you can't upgrade the software in the phone to the level it will need to be, in June.



    Think about it.



    The iPhone 2.0 will have very different SOFTWARE in it, in June.

    The features we all saw, the mail, the other stuff pushing and polling and other game playing features with the acceleromter require that something MAY need to be upgraded in the OS running on the hardware. (the 2.0 version of the iPhone is a software upgrade, NOT hardware)



    So YOU want to complain the SDK doesn't work with the old 1.0 OS on the hardware, when clearly you need the refresh the OS in the hardware in order to take advantage of all the stuff you're supposed to be able to do with it.



    So stop complaining, if you're not in the program, then you can build stuff with th SDK and play around. But if you're not in the program you don't have EVERYTHING you need.

    And it's NOT a hardware problem. Included with the June release is a OS 2.0 software upgrade to the hardware which you NEED in order to make it run right.



    Since you can't have that, don't complain the SDK doesn't work because THAT's not the problem. It's like complaining you're running Windows 95 on your desktop and complain you can't build applications for Vista. You don't have the OS to run it, right?

    Well your 1.0 iPhone (or picka version less than 2.0) doesn't have all the hooks it would need.

    And they ain't gonna send 100,000 copies of that out into the phone world so get over it....



    You may be a software developer, but you'll have to do with what you can make happen with the SDK and the 1.x version of the iPhone world until you either get inside the program or June rolls around and they release the iPhone 2.0 pack.



    But let's all stop balling about it, this is how this has to work.

    It's not any different than other beta programs I've been in, you're either in officially, or reading a lot of stuff and playing with pieces of demos.

    You're lucky to have the pieces you have, every program I've been in at MicroSoft would'a kept you in the dark until June.



    One of the complaints, if you've been reading my posts as well, is that he isn't getting the ver 2 beta software for the phone which will, depending on the beta status, give him the ability of testing his apps on the phone itself. Those who have been able to register have gotten that beta, or at least the tier 1 developers have. I'm not certain.
  • Reply 109 of 134
    Es obvio que los comentaristas de la élite no entienden las palabras que digo. ¡Tal es vida! ¡Por esa razón, no perderé toda nuestra tiempo para que decir más, excepto puede ustedes tener una buena vida!
  • Reply 110 of 134
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Es obvio que los comentaristas de la élite no entienden las palabras que digo. ¡Tal es vida! ¡Por esa razón, no perderé toda nuestra tiempo para que decir más, excepto puede ustedes tener una buena vida!



    AltaVista much?



    I think you want iniciado-de-la-manzana.com.
  • Reply 111 of 134
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    In fact, I am "Deal"ing... You are correct, that we, Tier n developers, have the SDK and Simulator to play with.



    However, as one who has spent many hours with the SDK-- I think that my opinions, based on actual experience, should be given equal credence with those who merely pontificate on how good/bad the SDK is, after watching a preso and reading a few articles.



    With all due respect!



    Well, I'm sorry that Apple doesn't respect you as much as Adobe. However, the SDK seems okay from a very cursory look at it. We haven't upgraded to Leopard yet but we'll be developing for the iPhone this summer.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Mmmm... I want to write a game that uses the accelerometers and Open GL ES. Neither of these neat features* are supported by the Simulator. You can't even compile the program and deploy it to the Simulator... so, you can write the code and look at it, but you can't see if/how it works and performs.



    * or the camera, microphone, locator



    Those are facts, not opinions!



    So compile your GL ES code and test it on the desktop. The core code should port relatively well to the final SDK in June. The accelerometer will likely be accessible via the HID manager and I think there is a wiimote HID driver that someone wrote. You can test your game play that way and that should port reasonably cleanly.



    Or you can look at the Torque game builder and have a cross platform game engine that likely (I didn't see any official note but didn't look either) that should eventually work on the iPhone. It already supports OSX and the Wii. There's likely accelerometer support in there somewhere.



    If you're the same guy that ported ColdFusion MX to OSX this is not a showstopper by any means. I dunno why you'd cut Adobe more slack than Apple anyway.
  • Reply 112 of 134
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Hmm. Last time this was brought up, it was 80+%. Interesting trend.



    Besides, Symbian is too limited. Even Nokia is moving to Linux for its more sophisticated systems.



    Actually, I was being optimistic at 70+



    "In Q4 2007, Canalys estimates that Symbian had a 65% share of worldwide converged device shipments, ahead of Microsoft on 12% and RIM on 11%. By region, Symbian led in APAC and EMEA with 85% and 80% shares respectively, while in North America RIM was the clear leader on 42%, ahead of Apple on 27% and Microsoft at 21%."



    http://www.canalys.com/pr/2008/r2008021.htm



    More at http://www.symbian.com/about/fastfacts/fastfacts.html also



    It's certainly been dipping as the smartphone market grows in the USA and the traditional Symbian companies such as Nokia and SE continue to be unpopular with US phone purchasers and carriers. It's growing there faster than elsewhere largely because it was so small until recently by comparison to Europe and Asia.
  • Reply 113 of 134
    lundylundy Posts: 4,466member
    Has anyone had trouble getting the values of instance variables to show up in the Xcode debugger?



    Any classes that are based on an iPhone API class show only the name, type and address of their instance variables, not the values.



    Regular C scalars and OS X API instance variables show up fine.



    I'm wondering if there is a setting that I missed.



    If anyone has the SDK, could you use Debug build, put a breakpoint somewhere after some variables should have values, and let me know what you get in the debugger? I'd appreciate it.
  • Reply 114 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Well, I'm sorry that Apple doesn't respect you as much as Adobe. However, the SDK seems okay from a very cursory look at it. We haven't upgraded to Leopard yet but we'll be developing for the iPhone this summer.







    So compile your GL ES code and test it on the desktop. The core code should port relatively well to the final SDK in June. The accelerometer will likely be accessible via the HID manager and I think there is a wiimote HID driver that someone wrote. You can test your game play that way and that should port reasonably cleanly.



    Or you can look at the Torque game builder and have a cross platform game engine that likely (I didn't see any official note but didn't look either) that should eventually work on the iPhone. It already supports OSX and the Wii. There's likely accelerometer support in there somewhere.



    If you're the same guy that ported ColdFusion MX to OSX this is not a showstopper by any means. I dunno why you'd cut Adobe more slack than Apple anyway.



    I wasn't going to post anymore to this thread, but you have provided some useful information and I wanted to thank you.



    1) To clear the air: My "with all due respect" comment wasn't directed at Apple. Rather, it was directed at posters to this forum, who were offering opinions on how good/bad the SDK is without ever having downloaded (looked at) it.



    2) You cannot compile OpenGL ES for the Desktop as there is no OpenGL ES framework for Mac OS X, only for ARM. Apple could/should (likely will) implement an OpenGL ES framework that runs on the desktop and, therefore, can be used by the Simulator. I wouldn't even consider trying to do this myself-- apparently it is difficult for even Apple to implement. So, for now, OpenGL ES program testing is for real ARM devices only.



    As an aside, Apple has made significant changes to XCode and the Interface Builder. It is a work-in-process but they are restructuring things to support multiple platforms (different from UB on OS X, or other releases of OS X). /Developer/Platforms currently shows the following directories:



    --Aspen.platform (ARM with all iPhone frameworks, including OpenGL ES)

    --AspenSimulator.platform (i386 with most iPhone frameworks, excluding OpenGL ES)

    --MacOSX.platform (i386, PPC frameworks for the Mac OS thaty we know and love-- OpenGL, but no OpenGL ES)



    This seems, spiffier and gives flexibility to implement other platform targets for OS X development.



    3) It may be that no one outside of Apple has the ability to run on the actual devices:



    http://daringfireball.net/2008/03/so_whos_in_already



    4) The Accelerometer frameworks are supported in the Simulator but there doesn't seem to be any way to provide Accelerometer input to the simulator.



    5) Based on your suggestion, I googled for "wiimote HID driver" and was able to find an excellent working example (including source):



    http://blog.hiroaki.jp/2006/12/000433.html



    Works great with Front Row!



    So, if you have a Wii, you should be able cobble together the components to test on the desktop. Aside: It would be nice if Apple enabled BlueTooth on the iPhone so it could be used instead of a Wii Remote.



    6) I have download the Torque Game Builder and will have a look at that, as it may be a fast(er) path than waiting for the missing pieces of the SDK to arrive. I am not really interested in writing games-- I used that as an easy-to-understand example of apps I want to write that use Accelerometers and OpenGL ES.



    Finally, Yes I am the guy that ported ColdFusion MX to OS X. But that was more an exercise in patience, tenacity (stubbornness) than technical expertise-- All I had to learn was: a little Linux, a little OS X Unix, a PC simulator and ColdFusion MX... with a well-defined origin and target. This pales in comparison to the effort to try and become proficient in Objective-C, Frameworks, XCode, Interface Builder, iPhone, Simulator, etc... to the point of being able write an acceptable iPhone app.



    Again, thank you for the suggestions-- I think they will open a workable path and may help others who are facing the same roadblocks.
  • Reply 115 of 134
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    2) You cannot compile OpenGL ES for the Desktop as there is no OpenGL ES framework for Mac OS X, only for ARM. Apple could/should (likely will) implement an OpenGL ES framework that runs on the desktop and, therefore, can be used by the Simulator. I wouldn't even consider trying to do this myself-- apparently it is difficult for even Apple to implement. So, for now, OpenGL ES program testing is for real ARM devices only.



    Ah, my bad. I toyed with gDEBugger (looking at potential tool chains) and I know it supports ES but never did any ES stuff. Primarily I do DirectX/.NET and dabble with the wiimote and a little JOGL.



    Quote:

    5) Based on your suggestion, I googled for "wiimote HID driver" and was able to find an excellent working example (including source):



    http://blog.hiroaki.jp/2006/12/000433.html



    So, if you have a Wii, you should be able cobble together the components to test on the desktop. Aside: It would be nice if Apple enabled BlueTooth on the iPhone so it could be used instead of a Wii Remote.



    Nice. And yes, it would be nice to use the iPhone via BT for a variety of things...



    Quote:

    Again, thank you for the suggestions-- I think they will open a workable path and may help others who are facing the same roadblocks.



    Good luck. On the other hand there are a bunch of cool things to fiddle with between now and June that you don't REALLY need to bang your head against any unnecessary iPhone SDK walls unless time to market is a dominating force for you. Getting a good preview on basic SDK stuff is likely good enough for a couple weeks and then moving on to something else until June.



    I wasn't kidding when I said compare access to the iPhone to that of Surface. The only things we get are from the dev team blogs and some general "get smart about WPF or XNA" suggestions. Mmmmkay...yeah...get smart on WPF or XNA...thaaanks.
  • Reply 116 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    Mmmm... I want to write a game that uses the accelerometers and Open GL ES. Neither of these neat features* are supported by the Simulator. You can't even compile the program and deploy it to the Simulator... so, you can write the code and look at it, but you can't see if/how it works and performs.



    * or the camera, microphone, locator



    Those are facts, not opinions!



    Exactly! I have an app in mind that would use the accelerometers. However, in order to even figure out how to go about writing the app, I need to write some test programs and see how they behave on a real device. Now, I can't even confirm that the test programs work on the Simulator.



    If I have to sit around and wait until June before I can even figure out how the app that I am trying to do might work, I might as well pick something else to work on.



    All I want is the ability to load my code on a device and see how it works. Why is that something that I have to wait until June to be able to do?



    I guess Apple doesn't care. They got the cash out of me buying a new MacBook Pro to do iPod touch development on. It seems a shame that the MacBook will spend its time running Windows and the Symbian development tools instead of MacOS and Xcode.



    alan
  • Reply 117 of 134
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tipo158 View Post


    I guess Apple doesn't care. They got the cash out of me buying a new MacBook Pro to do iPod touch development on. It seems a shame that the MacBook will spend its time running Windows and the Symbian development tools instead of MacOS and Xcode.



    You should sue Apple. How dare they force you to buy a MBP to develop on with their SDK and then not give you access to the limited access beta of the iPhone OS that was never mentioned or promised. I think you have a solid case here!
  • Reply 118 of 134
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    You should sue Apple. How dare they force you to buy a MBP to develop on with their SDK and then not give you access to the limited access beta of the iPhone OS that was never mentioned or promised. I think you have a solid case here!



    Gee, is it possible to have a serious discussion on this forum?



    I love my new MBP. Glad that I bought it. It is the best Wintel notebook that I have ever used (single button trackpad not withstanding).



    As I said, it is a shame that I am running Windows on it to build Symbian apps. Not sure how it benefits Apple to have me going down that path instead of working on my iPhone app that would sell iPhones in market segments that would probably not have thought of buying an iPhone.



    alan
  • Reply 119 of 134
    aegisdesignaegisdesign Posts: 2,914member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tipo158 View Post


    Gee, is it possible to have a serious discussion on this forum?



    You're new here. Generally it's possible, more so than most Apple sites even, although any dissent or criticism of Apple is jumped on by at least one fanboy* that can't see the wider picture.



    When it comes to phones, the completely weird, back-assward nature of the market in the USA has a certain sway on one's belief in Apple's one true way. Just sigh and walk away from the keyboard.





    * not that solipism usually is.
  • Reply 120 of 134
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,665member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by aegisdesign View Post


    You're new here. Generally it's possible, more so than most Apple sites even, although any dissent or criticism of Apple is jumped on by at least one fanboy* that can't see the wider picture.



    When it comes to phones, the completely weird, back-assward nature of the market in the USA has a certain sway on one's belief in Apple's one true way. Just sigh and walk away from the keyboard.





    * not that solipism usually is.



    I would add that any defense of a decision by Apple, no matter how well reasoned, will be jumped on by at least one anti-fanboy that will lecture us, again, about how dreary and stupid and predictable and sad the robotic "Jobs-is-the-chosen-one-must-obey-the-mothership-cannot-allow-any-criticism-no-matter-how-slight-more-Kool-aid-please-sheeple-Mactard-fanboys" are. AKA Artie McStrawman.



    These types have metastasized into a bigger irritant than the overly enthusiastic Mac user, IMO.
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