Alright taking this back to the iPhone. Apple intended to lock it to one carrier in four countries. But what we have is the iPhone being used in every industrialized country on the planet on multiple carriers.
Almost all GSM phones sold are locked to a carrier's network and usually include the SIM card in the box.
You're just totally wrong, again.
Hi aegisdesign,
I am not totally sure about this. I know that some operators offer branded phones but they remain unlocked so that users can still use their own sim cards but still have the branding present. They also lock some features.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.
He is correct. Some phones are SIM locked while some phones are hardware locked. The iPhone is a perfect example of this.
Alright taking this back to the iPhone. Apple intended to lock it to one carrier in four countries. But what we have is the iPhone being used in every industrialized country on the planet on multiple carriers.
Locks are made to be broken. It doesn't change the intention on Apple or the carrier's part to lock the phone.
It wasn't exactly easy to unlock an iPhone and keep it unlocked in comparison to an average run of the mill Nokia S40 phone or Motorola where you just enter in a code you get of the internet. Can you even ask your carrier to unlock them legally yet?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby
I am not totally sure about this. I know that some operators offer branded phones but they remain unlocked so that users can still use their own sim cards but still have the branding present. They also lock some features.
Some carriers are more restrictive than others but in recent years I've noticed it getting more restrictive as each carrier introduces more branding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sapporobaby
He is correct. Some phones are SIM locked while some phones are hardware locked. The iPhone is a perfect example of this.
They're not 'hardware locked' as it's just carrier specific software pre-loaded on the phone but it obviously requires a whole level of hacking above SIM lock code hacking to replace the phone's firmware.
The iPhone is not unusual in that regard. Most of the smartphones require more work to allow you to put generic firmware on them instead of Orange's or Vodafone's.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.
3 UK have superglued their SIM cards permanently into their cheap prepaid GSM phones.
You people are behaving as though (1) Europe is such a mobile phone heaven and (2) Apple is doing something that is so out of this world.
The iphone's launch in Europe has shown once and for all that --- all their simlocking laws are crap. Every European carrier does some firmware branding on their GSM phones (i.e. it's not just the evil big red Verizon Wireless that is doing it).
What mobile phone hackers can or cannot do --- have no connection to the way the carriers can or cannot do certain things.
Locks are made to be broken. It doesn't change the intention on Apple or the carrier's part to lock the phone.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
3 UK have superglued their SIM cards permanently into their cheap prepaid GSM phones.
Taking this back to the iPhone which is what this was originally about. Its doubtful the sim card is going to be superglued. People will be able to change it.
Quote:
You people are behaving as though (1) Europe is such a mobile phone heaven and (2) Apple is doing something that is so out of this world.
How am I behaving in this way? My original question was how will Apple be able to lock the iPhone to carriers who all use the same network technology. So far they have not been able to.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
What? You really don't understand what a SIM Lock is. The SIM isn't the bit that is locked. The PHONE is locked to a particular carrier's SIM card identifier. You can't just change the SIM and hey presto, it's unlocked.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
I think you are digging yourself into a big hole here.
In Europe nearly all phones are sold in a carrier subsidised model, i.e. your brand new Nokia smartphone is a small upfront price or normally free in return for you signing on a contract with the carrier for a 12/18/24 month contract. The phone is then locked to that network for the duration of your contract. This is to ensure that the carrier recoups the money back for the handset they paid for.
Th European union have ordered that all phones must be unlocked by the carrier at the customers request, but you still have to buy yourself out of the contract.
There is a thriving black market industry for unlocking phones but this still does not change the fact that you are still in a contract with the carrier and will get chased by debt collectors if you do not pay, so the carriers are not that worried.
There is also a market for buying unlocked phones outright similar to the iPhone model, but you do not have to have a carrier contract to go with them. You can choose to go pay as you go or get a special rate with a carrier seen as they are not subsidizing your handset.
Not all phones are branded at all, only Orange ever used to brand the actual handsets but Vodafone do this too, but not to all the handsets.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
Okay, I presumed this was the same in the US but maybe it is not.
All phones sold in the UK (and I presume the rest of Europe?) are locked to the Sim card, you cannot use a different sim card in a handset, even a sim card from the same carrier.
During the late 90's when mobile phone ownership became prolific there was a huge spate on mobile phone thefts. Measures were quickly put into place to ensure that a stolen mobile phone was useless. Thus changing the sim card will achieve nothing without unlocking the phone.
It is illegal for anybody accept the carrier to unlock a mobile phone.
All phones sold in the UK (and I presume the rest of Europe?) are locked to the Sim card, you cannot use a different sim card in a handset, even a sim card from the same carrier.
No, that's not true. I switch SIMs and phones all the time. It's rare that the SIM lock is to a specific IMEI code. ie. to one handset. Locked to one carrier, yes. ie. I can stick an Orange SIM from one phone in another Orange phone, but not in a Vodafone phone as the Vodafone phone will block non-Vodafone SIMs.
I think there's some stricter locks on the Pay-as-you-go phones though where you can't put a contract SIM in a PAYG phone, even on the same carrier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyweb
It is illegal for anybody accept the carrier to unlock a mobile phone.
Th European union have ordered that all phones must be unlocked by the carrier at the customers request, but you still have to buy yourself out of the contract.
No such laws exist in the EU. O2 UK is telling people that your iphone is useless if you go away from their network. You can't buy out a iphone contract in the UK. After your contract is over, you still can't get the unlocking code for the iphone.
Taking this back to the iPhone which is what this was originally about. Its doubtful the sim card is going to be superglued. People will be able to change it.
How am I behaving in this way? My original question was how will Apple be able to lock the iPhone to carriers who all use the same network technology. So far they have not been able to.
You kept saying that it's technically impossible to do this and do that --- like you never live in the real world.
Nokia's BB5 simlocking technology took about 3 years to crack --- that's 2 lifetimes for cellphones (with an average life of 18 months). That's as close as permanence without supergluing the SIM card.
All the different countries that sell the iphone are simlocked to their own carriers --- simlocked to AT&T, O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. Whether hackers can crack it or not --- doesn't affect whether they were originally simlocked or not.
What? You really don't understand what a SIM Lock is. The SIM isn't the bit that is locked. The PHONE is locked to a particular carrier's SIM card identifier. You can't just change the SIM and hey presto, it's unlocked.
Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
It became largely academic with these "eventually" --- when Nokia brought out their BB5 simlocking technology. People have bought 2 generations of N series phones before they got their initial phone unlocked.
If Nokia brings out BB6 tomorrow and it takes another 3 years to crack --- then that's an eternity for cell phones.
Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
It became largely academic with these "eventually" --- when Nokia brought out their BB5 simlocking technology. People have bought 2 generations of N series phones before they got their initial phone unlocked.
If Nokia brings out BB6 tomorrow and it takes another 3 years to crack --- then that's an eternity for cell phones.
Agreed. If Apple "really" wanted to lock down the iPhone they could have. If they had employed a military grade cypher, the iPhone would stay locked. Personally, I think Apple wants it unlocked. Viral marketing and all.
No, that's not true. I switch SIMs and phones all the time. It's rare that the SIM lock is to a specific IMEI code. ie. to one handset. Locked to one carrier, yes. ie. I can stick an Orange SIM from one phone in another Orange phone, but not in a Vodafone phone as the Vodafone phone will block non-Vodafone SIMs.
.
Yeh, i was forgetting myself there. It was supposed to work like I said but you can change sim's from the same network. If your phone is stolen though you can report it and the phone will then become unusable with any other sim card.
Comments
Almost all GSM phones sold are locked to a carrier's network and usually include the SIM card in the box.
You're just totally wrong, again.
You're just totally wrong, again.
Alright taking this back to the iPhone. Apple intended to lock it to one carrier in four countries. But what we have is the iPhone being used in every industrialized country on the planet on multiple carriers.
Teno, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_lock
Almost all GSM phones sold are locked to a carrier's network and usually include the SIM card in the box.
You're just totally wrong, again.
Hi aegisdesign,
I am not totally sure about this. I know that some operators offer branded phones but they remain unlocked so that users can still use their own sim cards but still have the branding present. They also lock some features.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.
He is correct. Some phones are SIM locked while some phones are hardware locked. The iPhone is a perfect example of this.
Alright taking this back to the iPhone. Apple intended to lock it to one carrier in four countries. But what we have is the iPhone being used in every industrialized country on the planet on multiple carriers.
Locks are made to be broken. It doesn't change the intention on Apple or the carrier's part to lock the phone.
It wasn't exactly easy to unlock an iPhone and keep it unlocked in comparison to an average run of the mill Nokia S40 phone or Motorola where you just enter in a code you get of the internet. Can you even ask your carrier to unlock them legally yet?
I am not totally sure about this. I know that some operators offer branded phones but they remain unlocked so that users can still use their own sim cards but still have the branding present. They also lock some features.
Some carriers are more restrictive than others but in recent years I've noticed it getting more restrictive as each carrier introduces more branding.
He is correct. Some phones are SIM locked while some phones are hardware locked. The iPhone is a perfect example of this.
They're not 'hardware locked' as it's just carrier specific software pre-loaded on the phone but it obviously requires a whole level of hacking above SIM lock code hacking to replace the phone's firmware.
The iPhone is not unusual in that regard. Most of the smartphones require more work to allow you to put generic firmware on them instead of Orange's or Vodafone's.
I'm not disagreeing with you. But at the same time I'm saying no phone is permanently locked. You are behaving as though people can not simply change the sim card.
3 UK have superglued their SIM cards permanently into their cheap prepaid GSM phones.
http://www.mobileburn.com/news.jsp?Id=2096
You people are behaving as though (1) Europe is such a mobile phone heaven and (2) Apple is doing something that is so out of this world.
The iphone's launch in Europe has shown once and for all that --- all their simlocking laws are crap. Every European carrier does some firmware branding on their GSM phones (i.e. it's not just the evil big red Verizon Wireless that is doing it).
What mobile phone hackers can or cannot do --- have no connection to the way the carriers can or cannot do certain things.
Locks are made to be broken. It doesn't change the intention on Apple or the carrier's part to lock the phone.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
3 UK have superglued their SIM cards permanently into their cheap prepaid GSM phones.
Taking this back to the iPhone which is what this was originally about. Its doubtful the sim card is going to be superglued. People will be able to change it.
You people are behaving as though (1) Europe is such a mobile phone heaven and (2) Apple is doing something that is so out of this world.
How am I behaving in this way? My original question was how will Apple be able to lock the iPhone to carriers who all use the same network technology. So far they have not been able to.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
What? You really don't understand what a SIM Lock is. The SIM isn't the bit that is locked. The PHONE is locked to a particular carrier's SIM card identifier. You can't just change the SIM and hey presto, it's unlocked.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
I think you are digging yourself into a big hole here.
In Europe nearly all phones are sold in a carrier subsidised model, i.e. your brand new Nokia smartphone is a small upfront price or normally free in return for you signing on a contract with the carrier for a 12/18/24 month contract. The phone is then locked to that network for the duration of your contract. This is to ensure that the carrier recoups the money back for the handset they paid for.
Th European union have ordered that all phones must be unlocked by the carrier at the customers request, but you still have to buy yourself out of the contract.
There is a thriving black market industry for unlocking phones but this still does not change the fact that you are still in a contract with the carrier and will get chased by debt collectors if you do not pay, so the carriers are not that worried.
There is also a market for buying unlocked phones outright similar to the iPhone model, but you do not have to have a carrier contract to go with them. You can choose to go pay as you go or get a special rate with a carrier seen as they are not subsidizing your handset.
Not all phones are branded at all, only Orange ever used to brand the actual handsets but Vodafone do this too, but not to all the handsets.
Which was my whole point from the beginning. They may attempt to lock, but as long as the consumer can change the sim card you cannot really permanently lock it.
Okay, I presumed this was the same in the US but maybe it is not.
All phones sold in the UK (and I presume the rest of Europe?) are locked to the Sim card, you cannot use a different sim card in a handset, even a sim card from the same carrier.
During the late 90's when mobile phone ownership became prolific there was a huge spate on mobile phone thefts. Measures were quickly put into place to ensure that a stolen mobile phone was useless. Thus changing the sim card will achieve nothing without unlocking the phone.
It is illegal for anybody accept the carrier to unlock a mobile phone.
All phones sold in the UK (and I presume the rest of Europe?) are locked to the Sim card, you cannot use a different sim card in a handset, even a sim card from the same carrier.
No, that's not true. I switch SIMs and phones all the time. It's rare that the SIM lock is to a specific IMEI code. ie. to one handset. Locked to one carrier, yes. ie. I can stick an Orange SIM from one phone in another Orange phone, but not in a Vodafone phone as the Vodafone phone will block non-Vodafone SIMs.
I think there's some stricter locks on the Pay-as-you-go phones though where you can't put a contract SIM in a PAYG phone, even on the same carrier.
It is illegal for anybody accept the carrier to unlock a mobile phone.
That's not true either.
Th European union have ordered that all phones must be unlocked by the carrier at the customers request, but you still have to buy yourself out of the contract.
No such laws exist in the EU. O2 UK is telling people that your iphone is useless if you go away from their network. You can't buy out a iphone contract in the UK. After your contract is over, you still can't get the unlocking code for the iphone.
Taking this back to the iPhone which is what this was originally about. Its doubtful the sim card is going to be superglued. People will be able to change it.
How am I behaving in this way? My original question was how will Apple be able to lock the iPhone to carriers who all use the same network technology. So far they have not been able to.
You kept saying that it's technically impossible to do this and do that --- like you never live in the real world.
Nokia's BB5 simlocking technology took about 3 years to crack --- that's 2 lifetimes for cellphones (with an average life of 18 months). That's as close as permanence without supergluing the SIM card.
All the different countries that sell the iphone are simlocked to their own carriers --- simlocked to AT&T, O2, Orange, and T-Mobile. Whether hackers can crack it or not --- doesn't affect whether they were originally simlocked or not.
What? You really don't understand what a SIM Lock is. The SIM isn't the bit that is locked. The PHONE is locked to a particular carrier's SIM card identifier. You can't just change the SIM and hey presto, it's unlocked.
Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
You kept saying that it's technically impossible to do this and do that --- like you never live in the real world.
I never said it was technically impossible.
Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
It became largely academic with these "eventually" --- when Nokia brought out their BB5 simlocking technology. People have bought 2 generations of N series phones before they got their initial phone unlocked.
If Nokia brings out BB6 tomorrow and it takes another 3 years to crack --- then that's an eternity for cell phones.
Now you are nitpicking. No I did not bullet point every technical bit of how a phone is unlocked. The over all point is these barriers are eventually circumvented.
Correcting now becomes nitpicking.
Oh well.
It became largely academic with these "eventually" --- when Nokia brought out their BB5 simlocking technology. People have bought 2 generations of N series phones before they got their initial phone unlocked.
If Nokia brings out BB6 tomorrow and it takes another 3 years to crack --- then that's an eternity for cell phones.
Agreed. If Apple "really" wanted to lock down the iPhone they could have. If they had employed a military grade cypher, the iPhone would stay locked. Personally, I think Apple wants it unlocked. Viral marketing and all.
No, that's not true. I switch SIMs and phones all the time. It's rare that the SIM lock is to a specific IMEI code. ie. to one handset. Locked to one carrier, yes. ie. I can stick an Orange SIM from one phone in another Orange phone, but not in a Vodafone phone as the Vodafone phone will block non-Vodafone SIMs.
.
Yeh, i was forgetting myself there. It was supposed to work like I said but you can change sim's from the same network. If your phone is stolen though you can report it and the phone will then become unusable with any other sim card.