You're either a troll or a fanboy, there is no in between. I suppose it follows the "you're either with us or you're against us" mantra of the short-sided.
You're either a troll or a fanboy there is no in between. I suppose it follows the "you're either with us or you're against us" mantra. of the short-sided.
You're either a troll or a fanboy there is no in between. I suppose it follows the "you're either with us or you're against us" mantra of the short-sided.
Yep, and it's irritating.
I mean, back in the '90s, when Apple was undergoing it's near-death phase, it made sense to think that way. LEGIONS of PC trolls would descend on Apple forums, spreading FUD and in general being a-holes. If you were a Mac fan, it was like being in a castle under siege... not that it wasn't fun pouring flaming oil on the PC barbarians at the gate, as I did many times.
But that was then, this is now. FUD means little, it's mostly good for a laugh. Any idiot can see that Apple is doing well and is a major contender again. So why are some still so scared? Why are the wagons still circled? Or maybe the zealots are largely new people? Who knows.
All I can say is, the Apple Purity Police? can suck it. I think for myself, and I have no wish to join their clique. There's a third group beyond fanbois or trolls, its Apple fans who are behind Apple but try to view their products and strategies reasonably objectively, and buy in up to the point where it makes sense, but aren't slavish followers of the party line.
If you were a Mac fan, it was like being in a castle under siege... not that it wasn't fun pouring flaming oil on the PC barbarians at the gate, as I did many times.
It was like that here around the last MacWorld event. So many new posters just trolling away. I suspect it will continue to get worse as Apple increases it marketshare in the PC and cell phone arenas, but I hope the WWDC is spared. A once a year spike is more than enough.
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All I can say is, the Apple Purity Police? can suck it.
Which is why I prefer AI to any other Apple related site and over most tech sites.
It was like that here around the last MacWorld event. So many new posters just trolling away. I suspect it will continue to get worse as Apple increases it marketshare in the PC and cell phone arenas, but I hope the WWDC is spared. A once a year spike is more than enough.
Yeah, but it'll never be as bad as the '90s were. Because the '90s forum wars were done against the backdrop of Apple possibly dying.
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Which is why I prefer AI to any other Apple related site and over most tech sites.
I dunno... the level of zealotry here is pretty durn high. But I agree that AI is not alone in that respect.
Uhhhhh, sapporobaby, as far as I know you're a janitor, but your posts make you sound like you work for Nokia. Or you're a Nokia shareholder. Or a Nokia fanboy if there is such a thing.
Or am I misinterpreting these?
"There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't"
"Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?"
"A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple"
I could go into a long post telling you why these statements are inaccurate, but why bother?. You'll be seeing for yourself soon enough.
And I'm hardly an Apple fanboy, TBaggins. I've never had an iPhone or an iPod, and I'm typing this on my Dell. But the writing is on the wall for the iPhone. It couldn't be more obvious how things are going to play out. Get some AAPL
Please wake me when something interesting is said. Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?
Let's recap:
1. The iPhone is a 3 year old phone (technologically), with a very nice UI. Drop the UI, you have a Motorola, i.e. POS.
2. The iPhone is more iPod than phone. Try making a VoIP call or exchange vCards, or any biz function.
3. iTunes is what is the driver here. A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple, and well, Nokia is a company of mobile telephony experts. There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't.
4. Nokia is pretty good at adapting and selling products that people want, hence their market domination.
These are just a few points. I have been traveling all day and could not be bothered to list more. I am quite sure you get meaning.
LOL. It's the old "the iPhone offers nothing new but a UI" defense! I thought that was retired long ago....
Really, Sapporobaby, if you want to be taken seriously, you can't peddle this sort of drivel. There are tons of technological innovations in the iPhone. I don't recall seeing many Motorola phones with 3.5" screens, WiFI, directional and light sensors, precise touch-screens, and gigs of RAM all in a tiny form factor with pretty damn good battery life. But still, who cares how the iPhone delivers a superior smartphone experience--ie, whether it's hardware or software? The fact is, it DOES deliver a superior experience.
By the way, it's laughable that you think Nokia could build a Media Store eco-system that's anything close to iTunes. Nokia is in no better position to offer a "comparable" alternative to the iTunes Store than Microsoft, or any number of other competitors that have tried over the years, and failed. Even if Nokia could catch up with all of the store technology that Apple has developed (which is a BIG 'if'...you clearly underestimate what it takes), they'd still have to convince millions of customers to switch from what they already know. How will Nokia do that? By asking nicely? Good luck to them, it's not going to happen!
Also, I highly doubt the mainstream smartphone market (ie, consumers) cares about VoIP calls or exchanging vCards very much. And in less than 2 months, business users will have a lot less to complain about...
You're way to enamored of Nokia. For starters, Apple is a bigger and richer company. It has a significantly bigger market valuation (look it up!) and almost twice as much cash in the bank! And if Nokia can do anything Apple can do, why did it take Apple to effectively re-invent the smartphone category, and suddenly aim smartphones at everybody, and not just a small business niche? Why is Nokia now playing catch-up, trying to copy the iPhone's magic? (see: http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/30/t...ne-commercial/)
Nokia's market domination is owed to much cheaper phones, not smartphones. There's not much future in making cheap, primitive phones, but there's a HUGE future in making phones like the iPhone (and integrating them with other digital devices like your computer and TV). We'll see how dominating Nokia looks in a few years....
Uhhhhh, sapporobaby, as far as I know you're a janitor, but your posts make you sound like you work for Nokia. Or you're a Nokia shareholder. Or a Nokia fanboy if there is such a thing.
Or am I misinterpreting these?
"There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't"
"Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?"
"A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple"
I could go into a long post telling you why these statements are inaccurate, but why bother?. You'll be seeing for yourself soon enough.
Meh. I think what Sapporo is saying is that no matter what Apple does in cellphones, Nokia can always play Microsoft to Apple's, well, Apple... i.e. imitate whatever Apple does a couple of year later with a 'good enough' copy, and use their sheer size and market position to ram it on through. Nokia will be a $100 billion/year revenue company soon, after all, and phones are their core business, while they're just one of Apple's three core businesses.
It's hard to predict with any certainty how successful that strategy will be, but it's fair to say that Nokia is going to be a major challenge for Apple. They are an extremely large and well-entrenched company with a lot of resources. Just because they're behind on software right now doesn't mean they're roadkill, as much as I, an Apple fan, would love to believe it.
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And I'm hardly an Apple fanboy, TBaggins. I've never had an iPhone or an iPod, and I'm typing this on my Dell. But the writing is on the wall for the iPhone. It couldn't be more obvious how things are going to play out.
I'm not saying you're an Apple fanboi... heck, I'm actually the Apple fanboi, but I'm one who tries to see things in a balanced way, which gets me in trouble from time to time.
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Get some AAPL
Way ahead of you, ace. I've owned APPL for years now.
Meh. I think what Sapporo is saying is that no matter what Apple does in cellphones, Nokia can always play Microsoft to Apple's, well, Apple... i.e. imitate whatever Apple does a couple of year later with a 'good enough' copy, and use their sheer size and market position to ram it on through. Nokia will be a $100 billion/year revenue company soon, after all, and phones are their core business, while they're just one of Apple's three core businesses..
It's interesting that you draw a parallel between Microsoft and Nokia. Nokia may indeed follow Microsoft's playbook (ie, be the imitator and rely on sheer size to create a market) but Microsoft's strategy isn't looking so foolproof these days. I shudder to think how much $$$ Microsoft has thrown away trying to make the Zune and its media store into an iPod competitor, and it hasn't even made a dent. Also, the iPhone is easily outselling Windows Mobile phones, despite the fact that Windows Mobile has been in the market for years. And clearly, more and more people are switching away from Windows to Macs because of the Mac's innovative features and design.
The point is: the Microsoft strategy is by no means effective in all cases, and if that's Nokia's path, then the company is taking a terrible risk.
P.S. Microsoft *has* found success when it does innovate, and not simply follow someone else's lead. Case in point: the Xbox 360. By being early to market with a genre-defining product (the first next-gen console from the big 3), and by developing a kick-ass online service that's years ahead of the competition.
In other words, being an early innovator is a great thing, and I'm betting Apple can out-innovate Nokia, RIM or anyone else in the smartphone space....
So it seems to me that the challenge Nokia faces going forward is the changing definition of "cell phone."
It looks like the market is going to segment into free, disposable "just a phone" items, and mobile computing devices such as the iPhone. Not "smart phones", a category that appears to have been a way-station on this road, but "mobile computers that have telephony among their applications."
These devices are going to sink or swim on their integration with the larger computing and media environment and, as more and more functionality gets shoe-horned into a constricted display and control space, their UI.
Apple is in an incredibly good position in regards to media and desktop integration. What would it take for Nokia to match Apple's ecosystem? Doesn't it seem obvious that the mobile computing device as extension of your larger digital world becomes increasingly important from now on? Doesn't being the guys with the well regarded desktop OS, of which your phone OS is a subset, and the vast iTunes ecosystem seem like a huge advantage, in that case?
The latter point, shoe-horning more and more "real computer" experience into such a small form factor, is why it seems to me to be wrong-headed to dismiss the iPhone as "old tech with a pretty face." The UI is, for most users, the device. Clunky navigation and confusing menu structures are one thing if I just want to do a few things, or if the phone is primarily intended for enthusiasts. It's quite another if the idea is to offer a lot of different functionality to the "just a phone" crowd.
I look at it this way: Nokia has done a good job growing simple phone functionality into more sophisticated devices. Apple has done a good job shrinking a desktop OS to fit on a handheld device.
As hand held devices get more and more powerful, which is the better starting point?
I look at it this way: Nokia has done a good job growing simple phone functionality into more sophisticated devices. Apple has done a good job shrinking a desktop OS to fit on a handheld device.
As hand held devices get more and more powerful, which is the better starting point?
This is probably the best summation of this entire thread.
Point: Nokia has the stones to do pretty much whatever it wants in any given market. The non-passport holding crowd simply see Nokia as a phone manufacture. They make all components required in a cell network. Phones are just one part, just as Mac OS on the iPhone is another part.
Point: Nokia simply has more numbers than Apple in terms of phones.
Point: The US market is the only market that remotely considers the iPhone a "smartphone". Other than playing videos, music, various other media, its telephone functions are crap. Pure and simple. Crap.
Point: Nokia has a long way to go to be remotely close to iTunes but they, just like Apple, have started slowly and are gauging the way the consumer winds are blowing and they will go in that direction.
Point: IN a side by side comparison in terms of features, the iPhone loses when compared to a real smartphone. Stack an iPhone up against a N95, N82, E90, E61i and see where the iPhone comes in. If terms of media functionality, the iPhone will probably get 8 out of 10 votes. However if you only want a device that has the barebones in telephony, the iPhone is your device.
At the end of the day, it is unfair to compare the iPhone to smartphone as it is not in the same class of devices. Nokia can use the same argument presented here: just wait and see what we will do next. This is the number one battle cry from the Apple-teenie crews here when biz features or the lack of biz features are mentioned. Apple is playing catch up just as Nokia. The only difference is, Nokia has a proven record and hundreds of millions of customers to back up their claims. Apple is the new kid on the block. As I have said several times before, Apple would be smart to hire some European phone designers from SE, or Nokia to help them understand the Enterprise market.
Uhhhhh, sapporobaby, as far as I know you're a janitor, but your posts make you sound like you work for Nokia. Or you're a Nokia shareholder. Or a Nokia fanboy if there is such a thing.
Or am I misinterpreting these?
"There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't"
"Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?"
"A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple"
I could go into a long post telling you why these statements are inaccurate, but why bother?. You'll be seeing for yourself soon enough.
And I'm hardly an Apple fanboy, TBaggins. I've never had an iPhone or an iPod, and I'm typing this on my Dell. But the writing is on the wall for the iPhone. It couldn't be more obvious how things are going to play out. Get some AAPL
These are called facts. Next time I will try to include some pics for you. So are you saying:
1. Nokia can not match Apple technology wise?
2. Are you saying that Apple has cornered the market on innovation and all other companies should just pack it in?
Your dismissal of anything that does not come from Apple and falling back to the Apple, "wait and see" party line is pretty much par for the course for a Apple-zealot, or did I misrepresent you here?
LOL. It's the old "the iPhone offers nothing new but a UI" defense! I thought that was retired long ago....
I guess it was valid then and still now considering that European sales make it clear the iPhone is not the revolutionary product that some think nor is it ready for a much more sophisticated market.
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Really, Sapporobaby, if you want to be taken seriously, you can't peddle this sort of drivel. There are tons of technological innovations in the iPhone. I don't recall seeing many Motorola phones with 3.5" screens, WiFI, directional and light sensors, precise touch-screens, and gigs of RAM all in a tiny form factor with pretty damn good battery life. But still, who cares how the iPhone delivers a superior smartphone experience--ie, whether it's hardware or software? The fact is, it DOES deliver a superior experience.
We are talking about Nokia phones. Nokia. Minus the touch screens (for the moment) I have pretty much all of that in my Nokia N82. Google. It works.
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By the way, it's laughable that you think Nokia could build a Media Store eco-system that's anything close to iTunes. Nokia is in no better position to offer a "comparable" alternative to the iTunes Store than Microsoft, or any number of other competitors that have tried over the years, and failed. Even if Nokia could catch up with all of the store technology that Apple has developed (which is a BIG 'if'...you clearly underestimate what it takes), they'd still have to convince millions of customers to switch from what they already know. How will Nokia do that? By asking nicely? Good luck to them, it's not going to happen!
That's right. iTunes sprung up overnight. Soooo glad you pointed this out. Yes. Apple didn't take a few years, and mucho dollars to invest into making iTunes what it is today. Right. Thanks for the info. By the way, you might have heard of this other little company that is offering better quality music (bit rates). What's the name? Uhhhh..... Hmmmm.... Ah, yes. Amazon. That's right. Amazon is offering DRM free music at higher bit rates and lower prices. Let's all ignore this because it is not an Apple offering.
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Also, I highly doubt the mainstream smartphone market (ie, consumers) cares about VoIP calls or exchanging vCards very much. And in less than 2 months, business users will have a lot less to complain about...
Get passport. Travel. See the world. Do know that Mexico and Canada do not count as abroad. If a biz dude can sit in Jakarta with SE (just to shake things up) and make a VoIP call to his family, or office, he did what? Say it with me now. He saved money. Isn't this what VoIP is all about? It is quite clear you have zero point zero understanding how this works. Should you be taken serious regarding this?
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You're way to enamored of Nokia. For starters, Apple is a bigger and richer company. It has a significantly bigger market valuation (look it up!) and almost twice as much cash in the bank! And if Nokia can do anything Apple can do, why did it take Apple to effectively re-invent the smartphone category, and suddenly aim smartphones at everybody, and not just a small business niche? Why is Nokia now playing catch-up, trying to copy the iPhone's magic? (see: http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/30/t...ne-commercial/)
I am enamored with what works. For music/media, the iPhone is king. As a "REAL" smartphone, the iPhone falls short. Would you like to know why? Go look it up. By the way, your link is a bit dated. Do you really think Nokia hasn't done anything since then? Really?
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Nokia's market domination is owed to much cheaper phones, not smartphones. There's not much future in making cheap, primitive phones, but there's a HUGE future in making phones like the iPhone (and integrating them with other digital devices like your computer and TV). We'll see how dominating Nokia looks in a few years....
This is almost too easy. Go to (I will help you here): www.nokia.co.uk and look up their phones. Europe, Asia, the Mid East get the good phones. The more mature or as someone put it, sophisticated models. Nokia could not sell another phone in the US and still be profitable with their E and N series phones.
Honestly, get that passport and look around a bit.
This is probably the best summation of this entire thread.
Indeed. Well said, addabox.
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Point: Nokia has the stones to do pretty much whatever it wants in any given market. The non-passport holding crowd simply see Nokia as a phone manufacture. They make all components required in a cell network. Phones are just one part, just as Mac OS on the iPhone is another part.
Point: Nokia simply has more numbers than Apple in terms of phones.
Point: The US market is the only market that remotely considers the iPhone a "smartphone". Other than playing videos, music, various other media, its telephone functions are crap. Pure and simple. Crap.
Point: Nokia has a long way to go to be remotely close to iTunes but they, just like Apple, have started slowly and are gauging the way the consumer winds are blowing and they will go in that direction.
Point: IN a side by side comparison in terms of features, the iPhone loses when compared to a real smartphone. Stack an iPhone up against a N95, N82, E90, E61i and see where the iPhone comes in. If terms of media functionality, the iPhone will probably get 8 out of 10 votes. However if you only want a device that has the barebones in telephony, the iPhone is your device.
What telephony features do you see it needing?
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At the end of the day, it is unfair to compare the iPhone to smartphone as it is not in the same class of devices. Nokia can use the same argument presented here: just wait and see what we will do next. This is the number one battle cry from the Apple-teenie crews here when biz features or the lack of biz features are mentioned. Apple is playing catch up just as Nokia. The only difference is, Nokia has a proven record and hundreds of millions of customers to back up their claims. Apple is the new kid on the block. As I have said several times before, Apple would be smart to hire some European phone designers from SE, or Nokia to help them understand the Enterprise market.
I assume this is what you mean by missing telephony features... and yeah, they'd do well to incorporate them, and do it intelligently.
However, I think you missed addabox's main point, even as you called it out as a good synopsis: which company has a better platform for quickly adding every more powerful features? The phone OS++, or the stripped down desktop OS? My money is on the latter. It's simply a better starting point as handhelds rise to meet the capabilities of desktops of just a few years ago.
*Can* Nokia meet Apple technology-wise? Sure. So *can* MS. Still waiting for proof on that last one though...
I think the Nokia/MS analogy is a decent one, but not perfect. We'll see how it goes.
I assume this is what you mean by missing telephony features... and yeah, they'd do well to incorporate them, and do it intelligently.
However, I think you missed addabox's main point, even as you called it out as a good synopsis: which company has a better platform for quickly adding every more powerful features? The phone OS++, or the stripped down desktop OS? My money is on the latter. It's simply a better starting point as handhelds rise to meet the capabilities of desktops of just a few years ago.
*Can* Nokia meet Apple technology-wise? Sure. So *can* MS. Still waiting for proof on that last one though...
I think the Nokia/MS analogy is a decent one, but not perfect. We'll see how it goes.
Hi kickaha,
Your post was equally as well stated. The thing is, I never said the iPhone was crap. It is far from it. It is however not the revolutionary device (my opinion) that many here (some of them blind followers) think. It is an evolutionary device. It was the logical next step. It builds a stable bridge from the desktop to a mobile device, and it does it well. Nokia products, are designed to be an extension of your office in your pocket. They perform this function quite well also. The iPhone and the Nokia devices are simply not comparable in my view as they serve different functions. I would not like to listen to music or watch a movie on my N82 even though I can, but I do like the VoIP, Skype, Fring, plethora of applications that I can use to make my working experience pretty decent. The same can be said of the iPhone. Movies, music, audio books, browsing, the iPhone wins clearly. But can I send biz cards, do vCard, vCal (not sure if they added this to be honest in 1.1.4), VoIP calls, decent quality pics, MMS (do not use often but when I need it, I really need it). How about saving docs for later emailing? These are the basics features in a so-called smartphone and the iPhone lacks them. Without even going down the 3G road again, this is also missing. To ignore this and continue the "iPhone = smartphone) is a lack of understanding. This shows in the European sales. Clearly they have a better understanding of what biz needs (well European needs) are as opposed to the US biz market.
It's interesting that you draw a parallel between Microsoft and Nokia. Nokia may indeed follow Microsoft's playbook (ie, be the imitator and rely on sheer size to create a market) but Microsoft's strategy isn't looking so foolproof these days. I shudder to think how much $$$ Microsoft has thrown away trying to make the Zune and its media store into an iPod competitor, and it hasn't even made a dent.
Very true, the Zune has largely been a failure. But, who was the well-entrenched incumbent in the mp3 player market at the time the Zune was introduced? Apple.
Does Apple have that same position in the cellphone market? No. Nokia does.
Therefore, I'm not sure one can say that the 'MS-strategy' works equally well/badly in cellphones as it does in mp3 players, as Apple's starting position in each market is dramatically different... mighty incumbent in players, 'new-kid-on-the-block' trying to be taken seriously in phones and smartphones.
Thus, a Nokia 'good enough' imitative strategy may work. Not saying it will, not saying it won't.
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In other words, being an early innovator is a great thing, and I'm betting Apple can out-innovate Nokia, RIM or anyone else in the smartphone space....
I agree, being the pacesetter is extremely helpful, and Apple has a software and design culture that the other cellphone makers do not.
But again, Microsoft didn't have those advantages, and still won the desktop wars. I realize that the Apple of the 2000s isn't the Apple of the 80s and early-mid 90s, but still, I do worry.
What I imagine happening is Apple and Nokia, over time, becoming more like one another. Apple will get bigger, offer more features, and offer more models serving a wider variety of audiences, maybe even models tailored specifically to Euro and Asian markets, while Nokia will place a higher priority on, and improve in, software and UI (though not to Apple's level).
In the end, they'll be the co-juggernauts of the mobile space, beating each others' brains in every quarter like it was World War 3.
I don't really see either killing the other off in cellphones, but this is just an educated guess... no one can predict with absolute certainty what's going to unfold, unless they're a fool.
We really could use some insight on patent law around here whenever a new patent from Apple or lawsuit pertaining to an Apple product comes out.
Sounds like you are questioning those home made macs for sale. This one will be interesting to watch. I look at it this way: Apple is going to be much better equipped legally (obviously) due to their deep pockets. At the end of the day, it is not so much about the money, but about the case (as my two small offices would like to believe). Apple has a lot of support from the courts lately with the current decisions regarding EULA's and the scores of cases won by the RRIA against websites and individuals to move forward with a case. Where they may get hit is the comparison to the anti-trust cases filed against Microsoft a while back. One obvious connection is the courts requiring Microsoft to permit other applications other than their proprietary lot on to the system on prefabricated/preinstalled windows computers. Apple does this too, but people who buy Apple, love Apple. Plus, Apple tends to put more useful default applications on their computers. The court needs to see the Mac environment as its own environment that Apple has exclusive control over, thus creating a monopoly over that environment. If the universe includes desktop/laptop computers in general, then you are never forced to use an Apple computer in order to use a computer since there is competition between Apple, Microsoft and other computer manufacturers. I think is it somewhat BS to force someone to use and Apple computer to run a Mac OS, however, Jobs' tight grip over what can be put on the iPhone makes perfect sense. How many of us that had a Palm Treo would put untested third party apps on the damn thing to watch it go in an endless reset loop? What was looked at as overbearing and controlling by some, was smart to keep a product reliable and functioning well. Same with Apple computers. We designed the Mac OS to run on our products. Don't bring some other junk in to make our hard work look like it doesn't work at all. Additionally, Microsoft does not prevent anyone from using bootcamp and VMware and other sorts of dual boot software. I would think that this type freedom to add the Mac OS to another machine might appeal to Apple's freeform/ease of use interface style.
Comments
Oh well, back to the AI super hug-fest.
Excuse me, that is the AI super fanboy hugfest.
You're either a troll or a fanboy, there is no in between. I suppose it follows the "you're either with us or you're against us" mantra of the short-sided.
Excuse me, that is the AI super fanboy hugfest.
You're either a troll or a fanboy there is no in between. I suppose it follows the "you're either with us or you're against us" mantra. of the short-sided.
ROFLMA. You feeling better?
Excuse me, that is the AI super fanboy hugfest.
You're either a troll or a fanboy there is no in between. I suppose it follows the "you're either with us or you're against us" mantra of the short-sided.
Yep, and it's irritating.
I mean, back in the '90s, when Apple was undergoing it's near-death phase, it made sense to think that way. LEGIONS of PC trolls would descend on Apple forums, spreading FUD and in general being a-holes. If you were a Mac fan, it was like being in a castle under siege... not that it wasn't fun pouring flaming oil on the PC barbarians at the gate, as I did many times.
But that was then, this is now. FUD means little, it's mostly good for a laugh. Any idiot can see that Apple is doing well and is a major contender again. So why are some still so scared? Why are the wagons still circled? Or maybe the zealots are largely new people? Who knows.
All I can say is, the Apple Purity Police? can suck it. I think for myself, and I have no wish to join their clique. There's a third group beyond fanbois or trolls, its Apple fans who are behind Apple but try to view their products and strategies reasonably objectively, and buy in up to the point where it makes sense, but aren't slavish followers of the party line.
If thats upsetting to some, oh well.
.
ROFLMA. You feeling better?
Yes. Thank you for asking.
If you were a Mac fan, it was like being in a castle under siege... not that it wasn't fun pouring flaming oil on the PC barbarians at the gate, as I did many times.
It was like that here around the last MacWorld event. So many new posters just trolling away. I suspect it will continue to get worse as Apple increases it marketshare in the PC and cell phone arenas, but I hope the WWDC is spared. A once a year spike is more than enough.
All I can say is, the Apple Purity Police? can suck it.
Which is why I prefer AI to any other Apple related site and over most tech sites.
It was like that here around the last MacWorld event. So many new posters just trolling away. I suspect it will continue to get worse as Apple increases it marketshare in the PC and cell phone arenas, but I hope the WWDC is spared. A once a year spike is more than enough.
Yeah, but it'll never be as bad as the '90s were. Because the '90s forum wars were done against the backdrop of Apple possibly dying.
Which is why I prefer AI to any other Apple related site and over most tech sites.
I dunno... the level of zealotry here is pretty durn high. But I agree that AI is not alone in that respect.
.
Or am I misinterpreting these?
"There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't"
"Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?"
"A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple"
I could go into a long post telling you why these statements are inaccurate, but why bother?. You'll be seeing for yourself soon enough.
And I'm hardly an Apple fanboy, TBaggins. I've never had an iPhone or an iPod, and I'm typing this on my Dell. But the writing is on the wall for the iPhone. It couldn't be more obvious how things are going to play out. Get some AAPL
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......
Please wake me when something interesting is said. Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?
Let's recap:
1. The iPhone is a 3 year old phone (technologically), with a very nice UI. Drop the UI, you have a Motorola, i.e. POS.
2. The iPhone is more iPod than phone. Try making a VoIP call or exchange vCards, or any biz function.
3. iTunes is what is the driver here. A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple, and well, Nokia is a company of mobile telephony experts. There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't.
4. Nokia is pretty good at adapting and selling products that people want, hence their market domination.
These are just a few points. I have been traveling all day and could not be bothered to list more. I am quite sure you get meaning.
LOL. It's the old "the iPhone offers nothing new but a UI" defense! I thought that was retired long ago....
Really, Sapporobaby, if you want to be taken seriously, you can't peddle this sort of drivel. There are tons of technological innovations in the iPhone. I don't recall seeing many Motorola phones with 3.5" screens, WiFI, directional and light sensors, precise touch-screens, and gigs of RAM all in a tiny form factor with pretty damn good battery life. But still, who cares how the iPhone delivers a superior smartphone experience--ie, whether it's hardware or software? The fact is, it DOES deliver a superior experience.
By the way, it's laughable that you think Nokia could build a Media Store eco-system that's anything close to iTunes. Nokia is in no better position to offer a "comparable" alternative to the iTunes Store than Microsoft, or any number of other competitors that have tried over the years, and failed. Even if Nokia could catch up with all of the store technology that Apple has developed (which is a BIG 'if'...you clearly underestimate what it takes), they'd still have to convince millions of customers to switch from what they already know. How will Nokia do that? By asking nicely? Good luck to them, it's not going to happen!
Also, I highly doubt the mainstream smartphone market (ie, consumers) cares about VoIP calls or exchanging vCards very much. And in less than 2 months, business users will have a lot less to complain about...
You're way to enamored of Nokia. For starters, Apple is a bigger and richer company. It has a significantly bigger market valuation (look it up!) and almost twice as much cash in the bank! And if Nokia can do anything Apple can do, why did it take Apple to effectively re-invent the smartphone category, and suddenly aim smartphones at everybody, and not just a small business niche? Why is Nokia now playing catch-up, trying to copy the iPhone's magic? (see: http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/30/t...ne-commercial/)
Nokia's market domination is owed to much cheaper phones, not smartphones. There's not much future in making cheap, primitive phones, but there's a HUGE future in making phones like the iPhone (and integrating them with other digital devices like your computer and TV). We'll see how dominating Nokia looks in a few years....
Uhhhhh, sapporobaby, as far as I know you're a janitor, but your posts make you sound like you work for Nokia. Or you're a Nokia shareholder. Or a Nokia fanboy if there is such a thing.
Or am I misinterpreting these?
"There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't"
"Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?"
"A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple"
I could go into a long post telling you why these statements are inaccurate, but why bother?. You'll be seeing for yourself soon enough.
Meh. I think what Sapporo is saying is that no matter what Apple does in cellphones, Nokia can always play Microsoft to Apple's, well, Apple... i.e. imitate whatever Apple does a couple of year later with a 'good enough' copy, and use their sheer size and market position to ram it on through. Nokia will be a $100 billion/year revenue company soon, after all, and phones are their core business, while they're just one of Apple's three core businesses.
It's hard to predict with any certainty how successful that strategy will be, but it's fair to say that Nokia is going to be a major challenge for Apple. They are an extremely large and well-entrenched company with a lot of resources. Just because they're behind on software right now doesn't mean they're roadkill, as much as I, an Apple fan, would love to believe it.
And I'm hardly an Apple fanboy, TBaggins. I've never had an iPhone or an iPod, and I'm typing this on my Dell. But the writing is on the wall for the iPhone. It couldn't be more obvious how things are going to play out.
I'm not saying you're an Apple fanboi... heck, I'm actually the Apple fanboi, but I'm one who tries to see things in a balanced way, which gets me in trouble from time to time.
Get some AAPL
Way ahead of you, ace. I've owned APPL for years now.
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Okay ppl, argue, but play nice. I'll try to get back here sometime next week.
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Meh. I think what Sapporo is saying is that no matter what Apple does in cellphones, Nokia can always play Microsoft to Apple's, well, Apple... i.e. imitate whatever Apple does a couple of year later with a 'good enough' copy, and use their sheer size and market position to ram it on through. Nokia will be a $100 billion/year revenue company soon, after all, and phones are their core business, while they're just one of Apple's three core businesses..
It's interesting that you draw a parallel between Microsoft and Nokia. Nokia may indeed follow Microsoft's playbook (ie, be the imitator and rely on sheer size to create a market) but Microsoft's strategy isn't looking so foolproof these days. I shudder to think how much $$$ Microsoft has thrown away trying to make the Zune and its media store into an iPod competitor, and it hasn't even made a dent. Also, the iPhone is easily outselling Windows Mobile phones, despite the fact that Windows Mobile has been in the market for years. And clearly, more and more people are switching away from Windows to Macs because of the Mac's innovative features and design.
The point is: the Microsoft strategy is by no means effective in all cases, and if that's Nokia's path, then the company is taking a terrible risk.
P.S. Microsoft *has* found success when it does innovate, and not simply follow someone else's lead. Case in point: the Xbox 360. By being early to market with a genre-defining product (the first next-gen console from the big 3), and by developing a kick-ass online service that's years ahead of the competition.
In other words, being an early innovator is a great thing, and I'm betting Apple can out-innovate Nokia, RIM or anyone else in the smartphone space....
It looks like the market is going to segment into free, disposable "just a phone" items, and mobile computing devices such as the iPhone. Not "smart phones", a category that appears to have been a way-station on this road, but "mobile computers that have telephony among their applications."
These devices are going to sink or swim on their integration with the larger computing and media environment and, as more and more functionality gets shoe-horned into a constricted display and control space, their UI.
Apple is in an incredibly good position in regards to media and desktop integration. What would it take for Nokia to match Apple's ecosystem? Doesn't it seem obvious that the mobile computing device as extension of your larger digital world becomes increasingly important from now on? Doesn't being the guys with the well regarded desktop OS, of which your phone OS is a subset, and the vast iTunes ecosystem seem like a huge advantage, in that case?
The latter point, shoe-horning more and more "real computer" experience into such a small form factor, is why it seems to me to be wrong-headed to dismiss the iPhone as "old tech with a pretty face." The UI is, for most users, the device. Clunky navigation and confusing menu structures are one thing if I just want to do a few things, or if the phone is primarily intended for enthusiasts. It's quite another if the idea is to offer a lot of different functionality to the "just a phone" crowd.
I look at it this way: Nokia has done a good job growing simple phone functionality into more sophisticated devices. Apple has done a good job shrinking a desktop OS to fit on a handheld device.
As hand held devices get more and more powerful, which is the better starting point?
I look at it this way: Nokia has done a good job growing simple phone functionality into more sophisticated devices. Apple has done a good job shrinking a desktop OS to fit on a handheld device.
As hand held devices get more and more powerful, which is the better starting point?
This is probably the best summation of this entire thread.
Point: Nokia has the stones to do pretty much whatever it wants in any given market. The non-passport holding crowd simply see Nokia as a phone manufacture. They make all components required in a cell network. Phones are just one part, just as Mac OS on the iPhone is another part.
Point: Nokia simply has more numbers than Apple in terms of phones.
Point: The US market is the only market that remotely considers the iPhone a "smartphone". Other than playing videos, music, various other media, its telephone functions are crap. Pure and simple. Crap.
Point: Nokia has a long way to go to be remotely close to iTunes but they, just like Apple, have started slowly and are gauging the way the consumer winds are blowing and they will go in that direction.
Point: IN a side by side comparison in terms of features, the iPhone loses when compared to a real smartphone. Stack an iPhone up against a N95, N82, E90, E61i and see where the iPhone comes in. If terms of media functionality, the iPhone will probably get 8 out of 10 votes. However if you only want a device that has the barebones in telephony, the iPhone is your device.
At the end of the day, it is unfair to compare the iPhone to smartphone as it is not in the same class of devices. Nokia can use the same argument presented here: just wait and see what we will do next. This is the number one battle cry from the Apple-teenie crews here when biz features or the lack of biz features are mentioned. Apple is playing catch up just as Nokia. The only difference is, Nokia has a proven record and hundreds of millions of customers to back up their claims. Apple is the new kid on the block. As I have said several times before, Apple would be smart to hire some European phone designers from SE, or Nokia to help them understand the Enterprise market.
Uhhhhh, sapporobaby, as far as I know you're a janitor, but your posts make you sound like you work for Nokia. Or you're a Nokia shareholder. Or a Nokia fanboy if there is such a thing.
Or am I misinterpreting these?
"There is nothing from a technological standpoint that Apple can do that Nokia can't"
"Do you really, really think that Nokia is incapable of duplicating what Apple has done?"
"A comparable store offered and supported by Nokia would be hard to dismiss and Nokia already has about a gazillion more customers and deeper pockets than Apple"
I could go into a long post telling you why these statements are inaccurate, but why bother?. You'll be seeing for yourself soon enough.
And I'm hardly an Apple fanboy, TBaggins. I've never had an iPhone or an iPod, and I'm typing this on my Dell. But the writing is on the wall for the iPhone. It couldn't be more obvious how things are going to play out. Get some AAPL
These are called facts. Next time I will try to include some pics for you. So are you saying:
1. Nokia can not match Apple technology wise?
2. Are you saying that Apple has cornered the market on innovation and all other companies should just pack it in?
Your dismissal of anything that does not come from Apple and falling back to the Apple, "wait and see" party line is pretty much par for the course for a Apple-zealot, or did I misrepresent you here?
LOL. It's the old "the iPhone offers nothing new but a UI" defense! I thought that was retired long ago....
I guess it was valid then and still now considering that European sales make it clear the iPhone is not the revolutionary product that some think nor is it ready for a much more sophisticated market.
Really, Sapporobaby, if you want to be taken seriously, you can't peddle this sort of drivel. There are tons of technological innovations in the iPhone. I don't recall seeing many Motorola phones with 3.5" screens, WiFI, directional and light sensors, precise touch-screens, and gigs of RAM all in a tiny form factor with pretty damn good battery life. But still, who cares how the iPhone delivers a superior smartphone experience--ie, whether it's hardware or software? The fact is, it DOES deliver a superior experience.
We are talking about Nokia phones. Nokia. Minus the touch screens (for the moment) I have pretty much all of that in my Nokia N82. Google. It works.
By the way, it's laughable that you think Nokia could build a Media Store eco-system that's anything close to iTunes. Nokia is in no better position to offer a "comparable" alternative to the iTunes Store than Microsoft, or any number of other competitors that have tried over the years, and failed. Even if Nokia could catch up with all of the store technology that Apple has developed (which is a BIG 'if'...you clearly underestimate what it takes), they'd still have to convince millions of customers to switch from what they already know. How will Nokia do that? By asking nicely? Good luck to them, it's not going to happen!
That's right. iTunes sprung up overnight. Soooo glad you pointed this out. Yes. Apple didn't take a few years, and mucho dollars to invest into making iTunes what it is today. Right. Thanks for the info. By the way, you might have heard of this other little company that is offering better quality music (bit rates). What's the name? Uhhhh..... Hmmmm.... Ah, yes. Amazon. That's right. Amazon is offering DRM free music at higher bit rates and lower prices. Let's all ignore this because it is not an Apple offering.
Also, I highly doubt the mainstream smartphone market (ie, consumers) cares about VoIP calls or exchanging vCards very much. And in less than 2 months, business users will have a lot less to complain about...
Get passport. Travel. See the world. Do know that Mexico and Canada do not count as abroad. If a biz dude can sit in Jakarta with SE (just to shake things up) and make a VoIP call to his family, or office, he did what? Say it with me now. He saved money. Isn't this what VoIP is all about? It is quite clear you have zero point zero understanding how this works. Should you be taken serious regarding this?
You're way to enamored of Nokia. For starters, Apple is a bigger and richer company. It has a significantly bigger market valuation (look it up!) and almost twice as much cash in the bank! And if Nokia can do anything Apple can do, why did it take Apple to effectively re-invent the smartphone category, and suddenly aim smartphones at everybody, and not just a small business niche? Why is Nokia now playing catch-up, trying to copy the iPhone's magic? (see: http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/30/t...ne-commercial/)
I am enamored with what works. For music/media, the iPhone is king. As a "REAL" smartphone, the iPhone falls short. Would you like to know why? Go look it up. By the way, your link is a bit dated. Do you really think Nokia hasn't done anything since then? Really?
Nokia's market domination is owed to much cheaper phones, not smartphones. There's not much future in making cheap, primitive phones, but there's a HUGE future in making phones like the iPhone (and integrating them with other digital devices like your computer and TV). We'll see how dominating Nokia looks in a few years....
This is almost too easy. Go to (I will help you here): www.nokia.co.uk and look up their phones. Europe, Asia, the Mid East get the good phones. The more mature or as someone put it, sophisticated models. Nokia could not sell another phone in the US and still be profitable with their E and N series phones.
Honestly, get that passport and look around a bit.
This is probably the best summation of this entire thread.
Indeed. Well said, addabox.
Point: Nokia has the stones to do pretty much whatever it wants in any given market. The non-passport holding crowd simply see Nokia as a phone manufacture. They make all components required in a cell network. Phones are just one part, just as Mac OS on the iPhone is another part.
Point: Nokia simply has more numbers than Apple in terms of phones.
Point: The US market is the only market that remotely considers the iPhone a "smartphone". Other than playing videos, music, various other media, its telephone functions are crap. Pure and simple. Crap.
Point: Nokia has a long way to go to be remotely close to iTunes but they, just like Apple, have started slowly and are gauging the way the consumer winds are blowing and they will go in that direction.
Point: IN a side by side comparison in terms of features, the iPhone loses when compared to a real smartphone. Stack an iPhone up against a N95, N82, E90, E61i and see where the iPhone comes in. If terms of media functionality, the iPhone will probably get 8 out of 10 votes. However if you only want a device that has the barebones in telephony, the iPhone is your device.
What telephony features do you see it needing?
At the end of the day, it is unfair to compare the iPhone to smartphone as it is not in the same class of devices. Nokia can use the same argument presented here: just wait and see what we will do next. This is the number one battle cry from the Apple-teenie crews here when biz features or the lack of biz features are mentioned. Apple is playing catch up just as Nokia. The only difference is, Nokia has a proven record and hundreds of millions of customers to back up their claims. Apple is the new kid on the block. As I have said several times before, Apple would be smart to hire some European phone designers from SE, or Nokia to help them understand the Enterprise market.
I assume this is what you mean by missing telephony features... and yeah, they'd do well to incorporate them, and do it intelligently.
However, I think you missed addabox's main point, even as you called it out as a good synopsis: which company has a better platform for quickly adding every more powerful features? The phone OS++, or the stripped down desktop OS? My money is on the latter. It's simply a better starting point as handhelds rise to meet the capabilities of desktops of just a few years ago.
*Can* Nokia meet Apple technology-wise? Sure. So *can* MS. Still waiting for proof on that last one though...
I think the Nokia/MS analogy is a decent one, but not perfect. We'll see how it goes.
Indeed. Well said, addabox.
What telephony features do you see it needing?
I assume this is what you mean by missing telephony features... and yeah, they'd do well to incorporate them, and do it intelligently.
However, I think you missed addabox's main point, even as you called it out as a good synopsis: which company has a better platform for quickly adding every more powerful features? The phone OS++, or the stripped down desktop OS? My money is on the latter. It's simply a better starting point as handhelds rise to meet the capabilities of desktops of just a few years ago.
*Can* Nokia meet Apple technology-wise? Sure. So *can* MS. Still waiting for proof on that last one though...
I think the Nokia/MS analogy is a decent one, but not perfect. We'll see how it goes.
Hi kickaha,
Your post was equally as well stated. The thing is, I never said the iPhone was crap. It is far from it. It is however not the revolutionary device (my opinion) that many here (some of them blind followers) think. It is an evolutionary device. It was the logical next step. It builds a stable bridge from the desktop to a mobile device, and it does it well. Nokia products, are designed to be an extension of your office in your pocket. They perform this function quite well also. The iPhone and the Nokia devices are simply not comparable in my view as they serve different functions. I would not like to listen to music or watch a movie on my N82 even though I can, but I do like the VoIP, Skype, Fring, plethora of applications that I can use to make my working experience pretty decent. The same can be said of the iPhone. Movies, music, audio books, browsing, the iPhone wins clearly. But can I send biz cards, do vCard, vCal (not sure if they added this to be honest in 1.1.4), VoIP calls, decent quality pics, MMS (do not use often but when I need it, I really need it). How about saving docs for later emailing? These are the basics features in a so-called smartphone and the iPhone lacks them. Without even going down the 3G road again, this is also missing. To ignore this and continue the "iPhone = smartphone) is a lack of understanding. This shows in the European sales. Clearly they have a better understanding of what biz needs (well European needs) are as opposed to the US biz market.
It's interesting that you draw a parallel between Microsoft and Nokia. Nokia may indeed follow Microsoft's playbook (ie, be the imitator and rely on sheer size to create a market) but Microsoft's strategy isn't looking so foolproof these days. I shudder to think how much $$$ Microsoft has thrown away trying to make the Zune and its media store into an iPod competitor, and it hasn't even made a dent.
Very true, the Zune has largely been a failure. But, who was the well-entrenched incumbent in the mp3 player market at the time the Zune was introduced? Apple.
Does Apple have that same position in the cellphone market? No. Nokia does.
Therefore, I'm not sure one can say that the 'MS-strategy' works equally well/badly in cellphones as it does in mp3 players, as Apple's starting position in each market is dramatically different... mighty incumbent in players, 'new-kid-on-the-block' trying to be taken seriously in phones and smartphones.
Thus, a Nokia 'good enough' imitative strategy may work. Not saying it will, not saying it won't.
In other words, being an early innovator is a great thing, and I'm betting Apple can out-innovate Nokia, RIM or anyone else in the smartphone space....
I agree, being the pacesetter is extremely helpful, and Apple has a software and design culture that the other cellphone makers do not.
But again, Microsoft didn't have those advantages, and still won the desktop wars. I realize that the Apple of the 2000s isn't the Apple of the 80s and early-mid 90s, but still, I do worry.
What I imagine happening is Apple and Nokia, over time, becoming more like one another. Apple will get bigger, offer more features, and offer more models serving a wider variety of audiences, maybe even models tailored specifically to Euro and Asian markets, while Nokia will place a higher priority on, and improve in, software and UI (though not to Apple's level).
In the end, they'll be the co-juggernauts of the mobile space, beating each others' brains in every quarter like it was World War 3.
I don't really see either killing the other off in cellphones, but this is just an educated guess... no one can predict with absolute certainty what's going to unfold, unless they're a fool.
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For reals? What type of law do you practice? This forum could sure use
some authoritative information on the many legal questions which come up.
I do a whole bunch of stuff from criminal to civil. I am more than happy to lend a hand if I can be helpful.
I do a whole bunch of stuff from criminal to civil. I am more than happy to lend a hand if I can be helpful.
We really could use some insight on patent law around here whenever a new patent from Apple or lawsuit pertaining to an Apple product comes out.
We really could use some insight on patent law around here whenever a new patent from Apple or lawsuit pertaining to an Apple product comes out.
Sounds like you are questioning those home made macs for sale. This one will be interesting to watch. I look at it this way: Apple is going to be much better equipped legally (obviously) due to their deep pockets. At the end of the day, it is not so much about the money, but about the case (as my two small offices would like to believe). Apple has a lot of support from the courts lately with the current decisions regarding EULA's and the scores of cases won by the RRIA against websites and individuals to move forward with a case. Where they may get hit is the comparison to the anti-trust cases filed against Microsoft a while back. One obvious connection is the courts requiring Microsoft to permit other applications other than their proprietary lot on to the system on prefabricated/preinstalled windows computers. Apple does this too, but people who buy Apple, love Apple. Plus, Apple tends to put more useful default applications on their computers. The court needs to see the Mac environment as its own environment that Apple has exclusive control over, thus creating a monopoly over that environment. If the universe includes desktop/laptop computers in general, then you are never forced to use an Apple computer in order to use a computer since there is competition between Apple, Microsoft and other computer manufacturers. I think is it somewhat BS to force someone to use and Apple computer to run a Mac OS, however, Jobs' tight grip over what can be put on the iPhone makes perfect sense. How many of us that had a Palm Treo would put untested third party apps on the damn thing to watch it go in an endless reset loop? What was looked at as overbearing and controlling by some, was smart to keep a product reliable and functioning well. Same with Apple computers. We designed the Mac OS to run on our products. Don't bring some other junk in to make our hard work look like it doesn't work at all. Additionally, Microsoft does not prevent anyone from using bootcamp and VMware and other sorts of dual boot software. I would think that this type freedom to add the Mac OS to another machine might appeal to Apple's freeform/ease of use interface style.
Sorry for the longwinded off topic post.