What you don't seem to be taking into account is that phone service came before cell service. Computer standards are far worse than what we see for cell service. So it;s a confusing mess all around.
You are wrong in that you can't just buy any software and hardware for your Mac, or for your Windows box, and that goes triple for a Linux box. There are standards. You can't even get drivers sometimes!
What Apple is conforming to are the demands of the carriers, and the governments in various countries.
Apple does what it must wherever it is.
As for AT&T, that was the first carrier, in the first country. Apple was trying to get as much out of that as possible. I can't blame them, though I think it was a mistake, and I've stated that before.
But, it's not as simple as you are suggesting it is.
Again, only partly true. Try to get the Instinct that's available on Sprint anywhere else. You can't. It's ONLY for Sprint. There are many other examples of that for every carrier. Sometimes a phone is also exclusive for several months on one carrier, or even for a year.
In fact, it's that that the iPhone wasn't available everywhere that we're seeing some carriers open their networks to more compatible phones, something they didn't do in the past.
Good points Melgross. The poster mentions many different protocols being used by the operators. Since the advent of GSM there are less and less different network types. Only the US and a handful of other countries (Japan comes to mind) have different network types. I can type my Nokia phone and use it anywhere in the world, but when I come to the States I have to look up which networks will work. Until the US decides to join the rest of the world, it will lag behind at the detriment of the consumer.
I think the OP has some valid points but seems to be more annoyed than anything else. Rightly so.
all they have to do is fix the gps so it works 100% of the time. Fix all the lag and bugs and crashes. Add copy paste tool fix push and mobile me. And add 100% Bluetooth support and the iPhone will be undoubtadly the best device out and will be for a long long time.
A really good example of a company doing a phone launch properly, is HTC's Diamond. By the amount of talk on Howard Forums, this one seems to have at least as strong demand as the iPhone, if not more. The Diamond is coming out for almost everyone, GSM and CDMA, all within a few months of each other.
As far as the US goes, which carrier other that T-Mobile is this coming out for now?
This also costs about $650 unlocked, so it's more expensive than the original iPhone was.
I don't see the demand as being greater than the iPhone. So far, no Win Mobile phone has ever even gotten a really good review. Sometimes the hardware does, but then, inevitably, the reviewer says that it's a shame it's saddled with Win Mobile.
I have to agree with you about this as well. Here in Finland, I hardly see anyone with the iPhone. In fact Sonera is calling people that put their names on a waiting list to get one. It seems that people are not happy with the 2 year lock in that Sonera is offering. Right now if you want, you can get a black 8 or 16 gb, as well as with the white ones. Apple does not seem to understand customers outside of the US that well. Not saying that they aren't having success but they seem to be applying a US biz model to European customers that are in some ways a bit more savvy in regards to mobile telephony than their American counter-parts. People here see it that Apple is screwing them with the contract and that Sonera is the enforcer behind this stupid policy. Some have even written Sonera to tell them that once their iPhone contract is up, they plan to leave Sonera and go to any other operator no matter what.
It's not Apple that's doing this, it's the carriers. I'm sure that Apple would love them to sell the phones with no lock-in. Apple would sell more phones that way, and more often. But when carriers subsidize a phone, they want to get that money back, and lock-in is the way they do it.
It's not Apple that's doing this, it's the carriers. I'm sure that Apple would love them to sell the phones with no lock-in. Apple would sell more phones that way, and more often. But when carriers subsidize a phone, they want to get that money back, and lock-in is the way they do it.
Good points Melgross. The poster mentions many different protocols being used by the operators. Since the advent of GSM there are less and less different network types. Only the US and a handful of other countries (Japan comes to mind) have different network types. I can type my Nokia phone and use it anywhere in the world, but when I come to the States I have to look up which networks will work. Until the US decides to join the rest of the world, it will lag behind at the detriment of the consumer.
I think the OP has some valid points but seems to be more annoyed than anything else. Rightly so.
It isn't even the standards that matter here.
for example, when I got my first cell, I wanted a Palmphone. I really wanted a color Palmphone, so I wouldn't need to carry my Palm IIIC around as well.
Sprint had the Samsung i300. no one else did. No one else ever did. Same thing with the i330.
When I later moved to the Palm Treo 700p, only Sprint had it. You couldn't get it anywhere else for anyone else. I asked Verizon if I could move over to their network, also CDMA, and they said no. Finally, over 6 months later, it was available for Verizon.
You see, these carriers put their own softwre on the phones that sync in various ways with the network. Often, other phones from different carriers can't work with them at all.
Often, a phone that is bought unlocked, can work on several networks, but not always. And sometimes, even though they can, they can't use all the features of the networks.
This is really complex. And I'm not impressed when someone says that they can buy this and that, etc. Later, if I have time to investigate (not always easy because of language differences and the fact that you can't even get on some carriers sites if you aren't in their sales zone, all you get is "not available in your area" or somesuch nonsense!) I often find that it's true that they can buy the thing, but it's crippled.
all they have to do is fix the gps so it works 100% of the time.
There is no such thing as a 100% GPS. There is propagation, interference, and a host of other things that is well out of Apples hands. I have a Garmin GPSMap 60CSx, and a Garmin Colorado 300. Both are considered top of the line in consumer GPS devices and they only give about 3 meter accuracy. So, you are hoping for something that will never happen. Apple might include turn by turn navigation but this too is generally approximate.
Joe Schmoe and a small group of Jailbreakers versus the overwhelming majority of iPhone users, from business professionals to surgeons and more who could give a rat's ass about jailbreaking tells me that Joe you have a lot to learn about Legal Contracts and the Carriers who will sue Apple if they don't make an earnest attempt at blocking the Jailbreaking.
Tunnel vision serves no one.
Here in the U.S. it is not illegal to unlock your phone (and U.S. Law trumps a Contract). The D.M.C.A. explicitly allows for this, without penalty.
Besides the fact that after a specific period of time, a carrier is required by law to unlock your phone on request, company/carrier contract be damned. I do not use cracked or unlicensed software, so as I originally stated Apple has more to lose than gain by bricking my phone.
Not to mention Apple and I fall well outside the time frame of the locking provisions any carrier could contractually impose (speaking only of the 1st Gen iPhone, which is what I use).
Ino ones cares about the iPhone in Japan. I still haven't seen one person using one. Waste of money. Just buy an iPod Touch... reception is not that great compared to say AU/KDDi. This has always been the case and is why many new mobile users in Japan choose AU/KDDi for their first phone like I did.
I've been living here in Japan the past 14 years. I remember when SoftBank was Vodafone and Vodafone was J-Phone. If indeed "no one" was supporting those companies, they would have gone under and stayed under once and for all. Fact is, they are good alternatives to "higher priced" companies like AU and DoCoMo.
I've never seen anyone other than people I work with use a Macintosh either, but that doesn't mean no one buys Macs here. I know full well that Japan is a big place, and my meager travels around it do not determine what is sold and what is not.
I love SoftBank for the price, and I am happy to live with a few drop-outs here and there to save a BUNDLE. Yes, a bundle, folks. I suppose the rich and carefree couldn't give a hoot about price -- they only want the best. And I agree that AU is very good. But I refuse to pay that price. Even AU's lowest priced plan is DOUBLE SoftBank's White Plan. But then again, that's why I don't have an iPhone either. I'm not about to pay nearly $70/month for mobile internet access. And besides, I still cannot use a pen like I can with my Newton 2100 (some applications work better with a pen than a finger). Wish my 2100 was faster sometimes, but I take comfort in knowing it's not draining my bank account. I suppose you could advocate the iPod touch in my case, but I still think the Newt is better in some areas.
Why is Apple so stupid sometimes? Did they not learn from the old Mac vs DOS days? Apple, free the iPhone once and for all! Free from carrier. Free from developer. Free, fee, fee. Any carrier. Any application. As should be. Let the user decide! Actually it should be illegal to block in such way something that you have paid for! Imagine a computer blocked to be used with some ISP or with some application. Sounds ridiculous? Well, that is sadly the situation with the iPhone and the iPod Touch.
Free Huey!!!
Seriously... the 'dev team' hasn't found anything better to do with their time yet?
Why is Apple so stupid sometimes? Did they not learn from the old Mac vs DOS days? Apple, free the iPhone once and for all! Free from carrier. Free from developer. Free, fee, fee. Any carrier. Any application. As should be. Let the user decide! Actually it should be illegal to block in such way something that you have paid for! Imagine a computer blocked to be used with some ISP or with some application. Sounds ridiculous? Well, that is sadly the situation with the iPhone and the iPod Touch.
What, exactly, is the problem with the iPod Touch? Hasn't it already been jailbroken?
This also costs about $650 unlocked, so it's more expensive than the original iPhone was.
But that iPhone price was for a locked phone. Add at least $200 for an unlocked price, assuming a hypothetical one was made available here through Apple.
But that iPhone price was for a locked phone. Add at least $200 for an unlocked price, assuming a hypothetical one was made available here through Apple.
We can't imagine what the price for a non-existent product would have been.
We can't imagine what the price for a non-existent product would have been.
I like going by what is actually available.
I have no problem with assuming $200 premium because that's what usually about happens. The unlock premium for the white market unlocked iPhones in Europe was higher than that, which actually is (or was) available and I don't think it's an unreasonable extrapolation. A basic fact is that it's quite a fundemental difference to the people that want it, and that difference can't be brushed off so quickly.
I have no problem with assuming $200 premium because that's what usually about happens. The unlock premium for the white market unlocked iPhones in Europe was higher than that, which actually is (or was) available and I don't think it's an unreasonable extrapolation. A basic fact is that it's quite a fundemental difference to the people that want it, and that difference can't be brushed off so quickly.
But it doesn't matter because the first phones weren't available unlocked.
The new phones are. Some companies are charging outragious prices, and some aren't.
The point to my post though, was simply to show that that phone wasn't as attractive as was being stated.
Apple had to partner with AT&T to get their foot into the door. Apple will still be selling more iPhones than other company's handsets that can be used with every carrier in the world. Once the contract with AT&T expires every carrier will want the iPhone and and Apple will gladly offer it to them. Sometimes you have to give a lot to get back a lot. The original story behind the iPhone introduction was that Apple tried to work with Verizon but Verizon wasn't interested (that's the rumor). So why not blame Verizon instead of Apple?
Apple had to partner with AT&T to get their foot into the door. Apple will still be selling more iPhones than other company's handsets that can be used with every carrier in the world.
You ever hear of a little company called Nokia? I am quite sure their sales figures will disagree with your assumption.
Quote:
Once the contract with AT&T expires every carrier will want the iPhone and and Apple will gladly offer it to them. Sometimes you have to give a lot to get back a lot.
Your assumption is based on the fact that no other phone manufacture will try to develop a competing phone system. There many, many people that simply do not like the iPhone. You view is a bit myopic
Quote:
The original story behind the iPhone introduction was that Apple tried to work with Verizon but Verizon wasn't interested (that's the rumor). So why not blame Verizon instead of Apple?
They did not like the revenue sharing model, and I think they also had an issue with Apple being so deep within their core network.
Comments
What you don't seem to be taking into account is that phone service came before cell service. Computer standards are far worse than what we see for cell service. So it;s a confusing mess all around.
You are wrong in that you can't just buy any software and hardware for your Mac, or for your Windows box, and that goes triple for a Linux box. There are standards. You can't even get drivers sometimes!
What Apple is conforming to are the demands of the carriers, and the governments in various countries.
Apple does what it must wherever it is.
As for AT&T, that was the first carrier, in the first country. Apple was trying to get as much out of that as possible. I can't blame them, though I think it was a mistake, and I've stated that before.
But, it's not as simple as you are suggesting it is.
Again, only partly true. Try to get the Instinct that's available on Sprint anywhere else. You can't. It's ONLY for Sprint. There are many other examples of that for every carrier. Sometimes a phone is also exclusive for several months on one carrier, or even for a year.
In fact, it's that that the iPhone wasn't available everywhere that we're seeing some carriers open their networks to more compatible phones, something they didn't do in the past.
Good points Melgross. The poster mentions many different protocols being used by the operators. Since the advent of GSM there are less and less different network types. Only the US and a handful of other countries (Japan comes to mind) have different network types. I can type my Nokia phone and use it anywhere in the world, but when I come to the States I have to look up which networks will work. Until the US decides to join the rest of the world, it will lag behind at the detriment of the consumer.
I think the OP has some valid points but seems to be more annoyed than anything else. Rightly so.
A really good example of a company doing a phone launch properly, is HTC's Diamond. By the amount of talk on Howard Forums, this one seems to have at least as strong demand as the iPhone, if not more. The Diamond is coming out for almost everyone, GSM and CDMA, all within a few months of each other.
As far as the US goes, which carrier other that T-Mobile is this coming out for now?
This also costs about $650 unlocked, so it's more expensive than the original iPhone was.
I don't see the demand as being greater than the iPhone. So far, no Win Mobile phone has ever even gotten a really good review. Sometimes the hardware does, but then, inevitably, the reviewer says that it's a shame it's saddled with Win Mobile.
I have to agree with you about this as well. Here in Finland, I hardly see anyone with the iPhone. In fact Sonera is calling people that put their names on a waiting list to get one. It seems that people are not happy with the 2 year lock in that Sonera is offering. Right now if you want, you can get a black 8 or 16 gb, as well as with the white ones. Apple does not seem to understand customers outside of the US that well. Not saying that they aren't having success but they seem to be applying a US biz model to European customers that are in some ways a bit more savvy in regards to mobile telephony than their American counter-parts. People here see it that Apple is screwing them with the contract and that Sonera is the enforcer behind this stupid policy. Some have even written Sonera to tell them that once their iPhone contract is up, they plan to leave Sonera and go to any other operator no matter what.
It's not Apple that's doing this, it's the carriers. I'm sure that Apple would love them to sell the phones with no lock-in. Apple would sell more phones that way, and more often. But when carriers subsidize a phone, they want to get that money back, and lock-in is the way they do it.
It's not Apple that's doing this, it's the carriers. I'm sure that Apple would love them to sell the phones with no lock-in. Apple would sell more phones that way, and more often. But when carriers subsidize a phone, they want to get that money back, and lock-in is the way they do it.
A blazillion % correct. I agree with you.
Good points Melgross. The poster mentions many different protocols being used by the operators. Since the advent of GSM there are less and less different network types. Only the US and a handful of other countries (Japan comes to mind) have different network types. I can type my Nokia phone and use it anywhere in the world, but when I come to the States I have to look up which networks will work. Until the US decides to join the rest of the world, it will lag behind at the detriment of the consumer.
I think the OP has some valid points but seems to be more annoyed than anything else. Rightly so.
It isn't even the standards that matter here.
for example, when I got my first cell, I wanted a Palmphone. I really wanted a color Palmphone, so I wouldn't need to carry my Palm IIIC around as well.
Sprint had the Samsung i300. no one else did. No one else ever did. Same thing with the i330.
When I later moved to the Palm Treo 700p, only Sprint had it. You couldn't get it anywhere else for anyone else. I asked Verizon if I could move over to their network, also CDMA, and they said no. Finally, over 6 months later, it was available for Verizon.
You see, these carriers put their own softwre on the phones that sync in various ways with the network. Often, other phones from different carriers can't work with them at all.
Often, a phone that is bought unlocked, can work on several networks, but not always. And sometimes, even though they can, they can't use all the features of the networks.
This is really complex. And I'm not impressed when someone says that they can buy this and that, etc. Later, if I have time to investigate (not always easy because of language differences and the fact that you can't even get on some carriers sites if you aren't in their sales zone, all you get is "not available in your area" or somesuch nonsense!) I often find that it's true that they can buy the thing, but it's crippled.
all they have to do is fix the gps so it works 100% of the time.
There is no such thing as a 100% GPS. There is propagation, interference, and a host of other things that is well out of Apples hands. I have a Garmin GPSMap 60CSx, and a Garmin Colorado 300. Both are considered top of the line in consumer GPS devices and they only give about 3 meter accuracy. So, you are hoping for something that will never happen. Apple might include turn by turn navigation but this too is generally approximate.
Joe Schmoe and a small group of Jailbreakers versus the overwhelming majority of iPhone users, from business professionals to surgeons and more who could give a rat's ass about jailbreaking tells me that Joe you have a lot to learn about Legal Contracts and the Carriers who will sue Apple if they don't make an earnest attempt at blocking the Jailbreaking.
Tunnel vision serves no one.
Here in the U.S. it is not illegal to unlock your phone (and U.S. Law trumps a Contract). The D.M.C.A. explicitly allows for this, without penalty.
Besides the fact that after a specific period of time, a carrier is required by law to unlock your phone on request, company/carrier contract be damned. I do not use cracked or unlicensed software, so as I originally stated Apple has more to lose than gain by bricking my phone.
Not to mention Apple and I fall well outside the time frame of the locking provisions any carrier could contractually impose (speaking only of the 1st Gen iPhone, which is what I use).
Ino ones cares about the iPhone in Japan. I still haven't seen one person using one. Waste of money. Just buy an iPod Touch... reception is not that great compared to say AU/KDDi. This has always been the case and is why many new mobile users in Japan choose AU/KDDi for their first phone like I did.
I've been living here in Japan the past 14 years. I remember when SoftBank was Vodafone and Vodafone was J-Phone. If indeed "no one" was supporting those companies, they would have gone under and stayed under once and for all. Fact is, they are good alternatives to "higher priced" companies like AU and DoCoMo.
I've never seen anyone other than people I work with use a Macintosh either, but that doesn't mean no one buys Macs here. I know full well that Japan is a big place, and my meager travels around it do not determine what is sold and what is not.
I love SoftBank for the price, and I am happy to live with a few drop-outs here and there to save a BUNDLE. Yes, a bundle, folks. I suppose the rich and carefree couldn't give a hoot about price -- they only want the best. And I agree that AU is very good. But I refuse to pay that price. Even AU's lowest priced plan is DOUBLE SoftBank's White Plan. But then again, that's why I don't have an iPhone either. I'm not about to pay nearly $70/month for mobile internet access. And besides, I still cannot use a pen like I can with my Newton 2100 (some applications work better with a pen than a finger). Wish my 2100 was faster sometimes, but I take comfort in knowing it's not draining my bank account. I suppose you could advocate the iPod touch in my case, but I still think the Newt is better in some areas.
I refuse to buy an iPhone until they return Netshare to the App Store!
Bah! I'll bet you would not've bought one anyway.
Why is Apple so stupid sometimes? Did they not learn from the old Mac vs DOS days? Apple, free the iPhone once and for all! Free from carrier. Free from developer. Free, fee, fee. Any carrier. Any application. As should be. Let the user decide! Actually it should be illegal to block in such way something that you have paid for! Imagine a computer blocked to be used with some ISP or with some application. Sounds ridiculous? Well, that is sadly the situation with the iPhone and the iPod Touch.
Free Huey!!!
Seriously... the 'dev team' hasn't found anything better to do with their time yet?
Why is Apple so stupid sometimes? Did they not learn from the old Mac vs DOS days? Apple, free the iPhone once and for all! Free from carrier. Free from developer. Free, fee, fee. Any carrier. Any application. As should be. Let the user decide! Actually it should be illegal to block in such way something that you have paid for! Imagine a computer blocked to be used with some ISP or with some application. Sounds ridiculous? Well, that is sadly the situation with the iPhone and the iPod Touch.
What, exactly, is the problem with the iPod Touch? Hasn't it already been jailbroken?
This also costs about $650 unlocked, so it's more expensive than the original iPhone was.
But that iPhone price was for a locked phone. Add at least $200 for an unlocked price, assuming a hypothetical one was made available here through Apple.
What, exactly, is the problem with the iPod Touch? Hasn't it already been jailbroken?
It can't connect to a mobile phone network.
But that iPhone price was for a locked phone. Add at least $200 for an unlocked price, assuming a hypothetical one was made available here through Apple.
We can't imagine what the price for a non-existent product would have been.
I like going by what is actually available.
We can't imagine what the price for a non-existent product would have been.
I like going by what is actually available.
I have no problem with assuming $200 premium because that's what usually about happens. The unlock premium for the white market unlocked iPhones in Europe was higher than that, which actually is (or was) available and I don't think it's an unreasonable extrapolation. A basic fact is that it's quite a fundemental difference to the people that want it, and that difference can't be brushed off so quickly.
I have no problem with assuming $200 premium because that's what usually about happens. The unlock premium for the white market unlocked iPhones in Europe was higher than that, which actually is (or was) available and I don't think it's an unreasonable extrapolation. A basic fact is that it's quite a fundemental difference to the people that want it, and that difference can't be brushed off so quickly.
But it doesn't matter because the first phones weren't available unlocked.
The new phones are. Some companies are charging outragious prices, and some aren't.
The point to my post though, was simply to show that that phone wasn't as attractive as was being stated.
It can't connect to a mobile phone network.
It's not a phone; it's an iPod. It doesn't ned to connect to a network other than wifi.
Apple had to partner with AT&T to get their foot into the door. Apple will still be selling more iPhones than other company's handsets that can be used with every carrier in the world.
You ever hear of a little company called Nokia? I am quite sure their sales figures will disagree with your assumption.
Once the contract with AT&T expires every carrier will want the iPhone and and Apple will gladly offer it to them. Sometimes you have to give a lot to get back a lot.
Your assumption is based on the fact that no other phone manufacture will try to develop a competing phone system. There many, many people that simply do not like the iPhone. You view is a bit myopic
The original story behind the iPhone introduction was that Apple tried to work with Verizon but Verizon wasn't interested (that's the rumor). So why not blame Verizon instead of Apple?
They did not like the revenue sharing model, and I think they also had an issue with Apple being so deep within their core network.