If by complete package you mean, a device that is missing functions the a basic phone has, then yes the iPhone is a complete package
Maybe it is about time some features are removed from phones and replaced by better ones. The same way the floppy drive, serial, and parallel connections were removed and replaced by USB ports. I remember the outrage when Apple removed these years back and now everyone else is doing it.
If by complete package you mean, a device that is missing functions the a basic phone has, then yes the iPhone is a complete package
So by not having everything that every device before it has ever had it can't be complete in its own right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by genericposts
Right now it appears that the only real advantage the iPhone has going for it is the screen.
'Only' is an absolute term. I can think of many advantages to the iPhone, even the aesthetics and marketing are advantages to consider when talking about a consumer product.
But if the [I]only[/I ]advantage was its capacitance touchscreen, that is huge advantage that isn't yet match on either the HW or the SW side of things. You can't just plop an iPhone touchscreen into a phone and expect to get the same results. It has to do with many years of designing a proper mobile OS and frameworks and all the UI elements that give the iPhone's touchscreen it's signature look and appeal. Plus, it's the primary input for the device so it's pretty important to get it right. People scoffed at the mouse, too.
Maybe it is about time some features are removed from phones and replaced by better ones. The same way the floppy drive, serial, and parallel connections were removed and replaced by USB ports. I remember the outrage when Apple removed these years back and now everyone else is doing it.
What? Like basic bluetooth functionality? Or background applications, a basic function that is needed for the device to be taken seriously in a business environment
What? Like basic bluetooth functionality? Or background applications, a basic function that is needed for the device to be taken seriously in a business environment
If the background apps the iPhone allows don't fit your needs then don't get an iPhone. There are pros and cons with every device depending on the customer. YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE DEVICE FIT EVERYONE'S NEEDS. The iPhone is not the 2nd coming of Christ. It is not the Jesus Phone. Note that Jesus doesn't fit everyone's religious needs. RiM sells to its market segment, the iPhone to its segment, Nokia to its segment. There is overlap, but they all serve their purpose.
If the background apps the iPhone allows don't fit your needs then don't get an iPhone. There are pros and cons with every device depending on the customer. YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE DEVICE FIT EVERYONE'S NEEDS. The iPhone is not the 2nd coming of Christ. It is not the Jesus Phone. Note that Jesus doesn't fit everyone's religious needs. RiM markets to it's market segment, the iPhone to its segment, Nokia to it's segment. There is overlap, but they all serve their purpose.
Very true, it is a pity others share that view. The majority of people on this site think there is no other phone/mobile device that is as capable as the iPhone
for the record, nokia is the largest cellphone manufacturer in the world; a position they arrived at by focusing solely on cell phones and abandoning other business units making everything from monitors to rubber. Apple, is spreading themselves thin. show of hands for everyone who thinks Apple
s computer division is being neglected. honestly. i would say Nokia knows a thing or two about cellphones.
being defensive about apple is one thing, but to presume that nokia has their head up their posterior is another. the 58xx series has been a low-to-mid range affordable phone with emphasis on music. this one is no different.
btw, i probably own more apple devices than most of you; so fanboys...save your breath.
and would it be too far from the truth to say that if everyone under the sun had an apple product / iphone, most of us eventually wouldn't want one.
lets give credit where credit is due, and not bitc* and moan about 'me too devices'
for the record, nokia is the largest cellphone manufacturer in the world; a position they arrived at by focusing solely on cell phones and abandoning other business units making everything from monitors to rubber. Apple, is spreading themselves thin. show of hands for everyone who thinks Apple
s computer division is being neglected. honestly. i would say Nokia knows a thing or two about cellphones.
Note to Nokia fans, Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, and Appleinsider is a USA centric meesage forum. Nokia is like a has been here, maybe a never was in the USA. On top of that, there are few if any subsidized N-series phones here. They are all sold unsubsidized at astronomical $700+, and maybe after a year, at $400. Not only that, most of them don't support the HSDPA frequencies used in the USA, and obviously there's maybe only one or two el cheap or free CDMA phones available.
Quote:
being defensive about apple is one thing, but to presume that nokia has their head up their posterior is another. the 58xx series has been a low-to-mid range affordable phone with emphasis on music. this one is no different.
Of course Nokia knows a thing about cell phones, but something is wrong with their business model when their marketshare has shrunken from 20% to 7% in the USA over the last few years. On top of that, Apple is a very American company. Very US-centric in mentality. The Tube has a long way to go before it can dent the USA market.
If Nokia can't get the Tube subsidized, it's going to cost $300+ in the the USA, and that ain't no price for a low or mid-range phone.
Did you read the article? The comes with music service is a one year "all you can download" service with a apparently high monthly cap. Once your first year of service is up, you are allowed to keep your music. It is not subscription music that will expire once you stop renewing your subscription.
If it really works as described, this has the potential to radically shake up the music industry. I had subscription music for a while and liked it - though the Windows subscription format was buggy to say the least. Now add that ability to pick and choose the music you want and then keeping it. I see this as being a hit.
TANSTAAFL. There aint no such thing as a free lunch. Inscribed that into your very soul.
If read up on the Comes with Music deal, it does have some limitations: the music has DRM and is limited to the purchased device and the computer in which you sync it too. If you buy a new device within a couple of years, the music can be transfered (and erased from the previous device). Nice incentive for buying new devices. After two years, the honeymoon is over, and you'll pay for the music again when you purchase a new mobile. Actually, the less than 2 year thing is strange to me too, since I would expect every CWM phone to have part of its revenue go to the music labels.
This is an interesting strategy to say the least. It's very phone centric and very Anti-Apple. I'm not sure how much I would trust it, but best of luck to Nokia.
for the record, nokia is the largest cellphone manufacturer in the world; a position they arrived at by focusing solely on cell phones and abandoning other business units making everything from monitors to rubber. Apple, is spreading themselves thin. show of hands for everyone who thinks Apple
s computer division is being neglected. honestly. i would say Nokia knows a thing or two about cellphones.
being defensive about apple is one thing, but to presume that nokia has their head up their posterior is another. the 58xx series has been a low-to-mid range affordable phone with emphasis on music. this one is no different.
btw, i probably own more apple devices than most of you; so fanboys...save your breath.
and would it be too far from the truth to say that if everyone under the sun had an apple product / iphone, most of us eventually wouldn't want one.
lets give credit where credit is due, and not bitc* and moan about 'me too devices'
Your first post here is to insult the "fanboys" and declare yourself the expert?
Your first post here is to insult the "fanboys" and declare yourself the expert?
Classy.
Maybe the delivery is wrong but it does not make his info invalid. I notice that you did not jump on those other "classy" Appleistas (I borrowed this word from someone in this or another thread but it is appropriate for some) that carry the Apple banner.
If you are going to comment on one, you need to comment on the others to remain balanced.
Very true, it is a pity others share that view. The majority of people on this site think there is no other phone/mobile device that is as capable as the iPhone
If by complete package you mean, a device that is missing functions the a basic phone has, then yes the iPhone is a complete package
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
What? Like basic bluetooth functionality? Or background applications, a basic function that is needed for the device to be taken seriously in a business environment
In the your first post you said it lacks basic phone features while in the next one you relate those features to business use! Basic phones are not usually business friendly. We all know that every phone is missing few features. It is what important that counts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning
Very true, it is a pity others share that view. The majority of people on this site think there is no other phone/mobile device that is as capable as the iPhone
You forget to mention that there are as many people here who insist on considering the iPhone (actually every Apple product) a failure because it is missing some features while praising other phones that misses much more.
In the your first post you said it lacks basic phone features while in the next one you relate those features to business use! Basic phones are not usually business friendly. We all know that every phone is missing few features. It is what important that counts.
Well actually you are wrong. There are a number of basic phones that have things like BT, or IRDA, which can be used to tether a device to the phone for data (say for SFA applications).
Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.
Why don't they write that app for the iphone then I hear you say, hmm, background applications work really well when someone rings you...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE
You forget to mention that there are as many people here who insist on considering the iPhone (actually every Apple product) a failure because it is missing some features while praising other phones that misses much more.
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
Note to Nokia fans, Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, and Appleinsider is a USA centric meesage forum. Nokia is like a has been here, maybe a never was in the USA. On top of that, there are few if any subsidized N-series phones here. They are all sold unsubsidized at astronomical $700+, and maybe after a year, at $400. Not only that, most of them don't support the HSDPA frequencies used in the USA, and obviously there's maybe only one or two el cheap or free CDMA phones available.
You mean similar to that fact that Apple has next to no marketshare outside the USA? It is been like that for a long time, and will continue to be like that until Apple learns how to adapt to other markets properly.
As for Nokia, and CDMA phones, have a read up about Qualcomm, and their anti-competive practices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by THT
Of course Nokia knows a thing about cell phones, but something is wrong with their business model when their marketshare has shrunken from 20% to 7% in the USA over the last few years. On top of that, Apple is a very American company. Very US-centric in mentality. The Tube has a long way to go before it can dent the USA market.
If Nokia can't get the Tube subsidized, it's going to cost $300+ in the the USA, and that ain't no price for a low or mid-range phone.
ok, on the first link subscriber connections Q2 2008
GSM 80.79%, including HSPA varieties, 85%
Could be one reason not to flock to CDMA2000 etc...
USA/Canada 7.65% of the connections...
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
I am with you here. I work for a large American company which has me based in here in Europe and I can say that Apple is very short sighted in their biz models when it comes to Europe. What works in the US does not always translate to what will work in Europe. Nokia it seems understands this by not spending too much time and effort in the US. Nokia will concentrate on other markets that have a similar European strategy, and they will make their money there. As you mentioned, the basic phone has the ability to do things that the iPhone simply can not do, and in some cases, vice versa. Apple can not seriously consider the iPhone an Enterprise phone with the way it is configured. It is a great media device that happens to make phone calls. Nothing more, nothing less.
You mean similar to that fact that Apple has next to no marketshare outside the USA? It is been like that for a long time, and will continue to be like that until Apple learns how to adapt to other markets properly.
Sure. But it's a matter of perspective with Apple's USA bread and butter and Nokia indifference to the USA. Apple is only going for 1% or 2% marketshare. The profitable, higher end of the market. If relegated to "smartphone" marketshare, they are trying for about 15%.
But the matter at hand is how is Nokia going to dent Apple? They aren't and the Tube aint going to do it for many business reasons. Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, they refuse to offer more than a fraction of their phone portfolio here, and they apparently can't or won't make deals with American carriers.
How in the world is the Tube going to change that? It probably won't be sold in the USA until Summer of 2009. Not only that, they are offering music subscription service that only allows consumers to play the music on CWM registered devices, have decided to play with the devil by paying music labels for every CWM device sold (that doesn't sound like a good precedent to me), and "your" music goes poof if CWM dies.
Quote:
As for Nokia, and CDMA phones, have a read up about Qualcomm, and their anti-competive practices.
ok, on the first link subscriber connections Q2 2008
GSM 80.79%, including HSPA varieties, 85%
Could be one reason not to flock to CDMA2000 etc...
USA/Canada 7.65% of the connections...
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
I don't give a flying fig about CDMA versus GSM. I was just commenting on Nokia's lack of effort in the USA. There's a reason most of the board don't really know about or care about Nokia. It's amply demonstrated with the 7% marketshare figure (a downward trend too). It's amply demonstrated with Nokia only offering a small fraction of their portfolio through American carriers, selling N-series phones unsubsidized, and not even trying for the CDMA market (which is half the market, but I understand the business reason for not doing so).
Samsung, LG and Motorola are better regarded here among consumers, let alone RIM.
Sure. But it's a matter of perspective with Apple's USA bread and butter and Nokia indifference to the USA. Apple is only going for 1% or 2% marketshare. The profitable, higher end of the market. If relegated to "smartphone" marketshare, they are trying for about 15%.
But the matter at hand is how is Nokia going to dent Apple? They aren't and the Tube aint going to do it for many business reasons. Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, they refuse to offer more than a fraction of their phone portfolio here, and they apparently can't or won't make deals with American carriers.
How in the world is the Tube going to change that? It probably won't be sold in the USA until Summer of 2009. Not only that, they are offering music subscription service that only allows consumers to play the music on CWM registered devices, have decided to play with the devil by paying music labels for every CWM device sold (that doesn't sound like a good precedent to me), and "your" music goes poof if CWM dies.
I don't give a flying fig about CDMA versus GSM. I was just commenting on Nokia's lack of effort in the USA. There's a reason most of the board don't really know about or care about Nokia. It's amply demonstrated with the 7% marketshare figure (a downward trend too). It's amply demonstrated with Nokia only offering a small fraction of their portfolio through American carriers, selling N-series phones unsubsidized, and not even trying for the CDMA market (which is half the market, but I understand the business reason for not doing so).
Samsung, LG and Motorola are better regarded here among consumers, let alone RIM.
You make a lot of sense but as far as Nokia is concerned, I would not waste much time on the US as well. If I can still sell phones there (probably still more than Apple. Not sure but someone will be more than happy here to rush to Apple's defense) and make a profit why put a lot of time and resources in a highly fragmented market. On any given day, Nokia out sells RIM, LG, Moto, Samsung and SE combine (close to it for sure) so if they can get more of the market than anyone else with not as much effort, why not. I am quite sure that if Nokia saw real sales potential in the US, they would make a earnest effort in generating sales.
The difference between the Tube (5800 Express) and the iPhone is that the Tube fulfills the phone part to a higher degree than the iPhone. It will be interesting to see if Apple makes a real attempt to make the iPhone more "phone" like. Simple things like tethering, or VoIP over GSM/3G would make a huge impact.
You make a lot of sense but as far as Nokia is concerned, I would not waste much time on the US as well. If I can still sell phones there (probably still more than Apple. Not sure but someone will be more than happy here to rush to Apple's defense) and make a profit why put a lot of time and resources in a highly fragmented market. On any given day, Nokia out sells RIM, LG, Moto, Samsung and SE combine (close to it for sure) so if they can get more of the market than anyone else with not as much effort, why not. I am quite sure that if Nokia saw real sales potential in the US, they would make a earnest effort in generating sales.
No need to rationalize Nokia's poor performance in the USA nor any reason to go insulting the cell phone market in the USA.
Quote:
The difference between the Tube (5800 Express) and the iPhone is that the Tube fulfills the phone part to a higher degree than the iPhone. It will be interesting to see if Apple makes a real attempt to make the iPhone more "phone" like. Simple things like tethering, or VoIP over GSM/3G would make a huge impact.
VOIP (over WiFi) is already available as a 3rd party app for the iPhone. Tethering and bandwidth hogging apps are still hampered by the limitations of the cell networks. Tethering will likely become available eventually, but it'll come at least an additional $15/month cost.
But as has been talked about time and again, Apple is a 90% company when it comes to features. They choose the features that are the most useful to people, make it easy and fun to use, and market it as such. The features that are rarely used or are of limited usefulness, or sometimes, features that are against Apple's strategic goals, aren't supported. The strategy works as is demonstrated by Apple's success. So the answer to your musing is pretty much, no. They'll always trail in the spec shootouts.
No need to rationalize Nokia's poor performance in the USA nor any reason to go insulting the cell phone market in the USA.
VOIP (over WiFi) is already available as a 3rd party app for the iPhone. Tethering and bandwidth hogging apps are still hampered by the limitations of the cell networks. Tethering will likely become available eventually, but it'll come at least an additional $15/month cost.
But as has been talked about time and again, Apple is a 90% company when it comes to features. They choose the features that are the most useful to people, make it easy and fun to use, and market it as such. The features that are rarely used or are of limited usefulness, or sometimes, features that are against Apple's strategic goals, aren't supported. The strategy works as is demonstrated by Apple's success. So the answer to your musing is pretty much, no. They'll always trail in the spec shootouts.
I wasn't intending to insult the US cell phone industry. I am just stating facts. If the facts come across as insults, I would say that you need to get with your cell operators and have them fix the facts.
I know that VoIP over wifi is available. But this is limited. I do not happen to have a wifi base station in my pocket, but I have a ubiquitous cell network that is everywhere. If the networks in the US can not handle something as simple as tethering, then they are in sad shape. Why does it have to cost for a service that all other operators allow for free? To simply shrug this off as the way the game is play, sort of makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution. Operators are in biz because of us, not in spite of us. Try a one week, or even one day boycott of making cell calls and see how they respond.
You might be right about Apple being a 90% company, but it is obvious that Apple will not allow, hinders, blocks or dissuades developers, through its SDK from providing apps that fill the 10% niche market.
Comments
If by complete package you mean, a device that is missing functions the a basic phone has, then yes the iPhone is a complete package
Maybe it is about time some features are removed from phones and replaced by better ones. The same way the floppy drive, serial, and parallel connections were removed and replaced by USB ports. I remember the outrage when Apple removed these years back and now everyone else is doing it.
If by complete package you mean, a device that is missing functions the a basic phone has, then yes the iPhone is a complete package
So by not having everything that every device before it has ever had it can't be complete in its own right?
Right now it appears that the only real advantage the iPhone has going for it is the screen.
'Only' is an absolute term. I can think of many advantages to the iPhone, even the aesthetics and marketing are advantages to consider when talking about a consumer product.
But if the [I]only[/I ]advantage was its capacitance touchscreen, that is huge advantage that isn't yet match on either the HW or the SW side of things. You can't just plop an iPhone touchscreen into a phone and expect to get the same results. It has to do with many years of designing a proper mobile OS and frameworks and all the UI elements that give the iPhone's touchscreen it's signature look and appeal. Plus, it's the primary input for the device so it's pretty important to get it right. People scoffed at the mouse, too.
Maybe it is about time some features are removed from phones and replaced by better ones. The same way the floppy drive, serial, and parallel connections were removed and replaced by USB ports. I remember the outrage when Apple removed these years back and now everyone else is doing it.
What? Like basic bluetooth functionality? Or background applications, a basic function that is needed for the device to be taken seriously in a business environment
What? Like basic bluetooth functionality? Or background applications, a basic function that is needed for the device to be taken seriously in a business environment
If the background apps the iPhone allows don't fit your needs then don't get an iPhone. There are pros and cons with every device depending on the customer. YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE DEVICE FIT EVERYONE'S NEEDS. The iPhone is not the 2nd coming of Christ. It is not the Jesus Phone. Note that Jesus doesn't fit everyone's religious needs. RiM sells to its market segment, the iPhone to its segment, Nokia to its segment. There is overlap, but they all serve their purpose.
If the background apps the iPhone allows don't fit your needs then don't get an iPhone. There are pros and cons with every device depending on the customer. YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE DEVICE FIT EVERYONE'S NEEDS. The iPhone is not the 2nd coming of Christ. It is not the Jesus Phone. Note that Jesus doesn't fit everyone's religious needs. RiM markets to it's market segment, the iPhone to its segment, Nokia to it's segment. There is overlap, but they all serve their purpose.
Very true, it is a pity others share that view. The majority of people on this site think there is no other phone/mobile device that is as capable as the iPhone
s computer division is being neglected. honestly. i would say Nokia knows a thing or two about cellphones.
being defensive about apple is one thing, but to presume that nokia has their head up their posterior is another. the 58xx series has been a low-to-mid range affordable phone with emphasis on music. this one is no different.
btw, i probably own more apple devices than most of you; so fanboys...save your breath.
and would it be too far from the truth to say that if everyone under the sun had an apple product / iphone, most of us eventually wouldn't want one.
lets give credit where credit is due, and not bitc* and moan about 'me too devices'
for the record, nokia is the largest cellphone manufacturer in the world; a position they arrived at by focusing solely on cell phones and abandoning other business units making everything from monitors to rubber. Apple, is spreading themselves thin. show of hands for everyone who thinks Apple
s computer division is being neglected. honestly. i would say Nokia knows a thing or two about cellphones.
Note to Nokia fans, Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, and Appleinsider is a USA centric meesage forum. Nokia is like a has been here, maybe a never was in the USA. On top of that, there are few if any subsidized N-series phones here. They are all sold unsubsidized at astronomical $700+, and maybe after a year, at $400. Not only that, most of them don't support the HSDPA frequencies used in the USA, and obviously there's maybe only one or two el cheap or free CDMA phones available.
being defensive about apple is one thing, but to presume that nokia has their head up their posterior is another. the 58xx series has been a low-to-mid range affordable phone with emphasis on music. this one is no different.
Of course Nokia knows a thing about cell phones, but something is wrong with their business model when their marketshare has shrunken from 20% to 7% in the USA over the last few years. On top of that, Apple is a very American company. Very US-centric in mentality. The Tube has a long way to go before it can dent the USA market.
If Nokia can't get the Tube subsidized, it's going to cost $300+ in the the USA, and that ain't no price for a low or mid-range phone.
Did you read the article? The comes with music service is a one year "all you can download" service with a apparently high monthly cap. Once your first year of service is up, you are allowed to keep your music. It is not subscription music that will expire once you stop renewing your subscription.
If it really works as described, this has the potential to radically shake up the music industry. I had subscription music for a while and liked it - though the Windows subscription format was buggy to say the least. Now add that ability to pick and choose the music you want and then keeping it. I see this as being a hit.
TANSTAAFL. There aint no such thing as a free lunch. Inscribed that into your very soul.
If read up on the Comes with Music deal, it does have some limitations: the music has DRM and is limited to the purchased device and the computer in which you sync it too. If you buy a new device within a couple of years, the music can be transfered (and erased from the previous device). Nice incentive for buying new devices. After two years, the honeymoon is over, and you'll pay for the music again when you purchase a new mobile. Actually, the less than 2 year thing is strange to me too, since I would expect every CWM phone to have part of its revenue go to the music labels.
This is an interesting strategy to say the least. It's very phone centric and very Anti-Apple. I'm not sure how much I would trust it, but best of luck to Nokia.
for the record, nokia is the largest cellphone manufacturer in the world; a position they arrived at by focusing solely on cell phones and abandoning other business units making everything from monitors to rubber. Apple, is spreading themselves thin. show of hands for everyone who thinks Apple
s computer division is being neglected. honestly. i would say Nokia knows a thing or two about cellphones.
being defensive about apple is one thing, but to presume that nokia has their head up their posterior is another. the 58xx series has been a low-to-mid range affordable phone with emphasis on music. this one is no different.
btw, i probably own more apple devices than most of you; so fanboys...save your breath.
and would it be too far from the truth to say that if everyone under the sun had an apple product / iphone, most of us eventually wouldn't want one.
lets give credit where credit is due, and not bitc* and moan about 'me too devices'
Your first post here is to insult the "fanboys" and declare yourself the expert?
Classy.
Your first post here is to insult the "fanboys" and declare yourself the expert?
Classy.
Maybe the delivery is wrong but it does not make his info invalid. I notice that you did not jump on those other "classy" Appleistas (I borrowed this word from someone in this or another thread but it is appropriate for some) that carry the Apple banner.
If you are going to comment on one, you need to comment on the others to remain balanced.
Very true, it is a pity others share that view. The majority of people on this site think there is no other phone/mobile device that is as capable as the iPhone
Great post.
If by complete package you mean, a device that is missing functions the a basic phone has, then yes the iPhone is a complete package
What? Like basic bluetooth functionality? Or background applications, a basic function that is needed for the device to be taken seriously in a business environment
In the your first post you said it lacks basic phone features while in the next one you relate those features to business use! Basic phones are not usually business friendly. We all know that every phone is missing few features. It is what important that counts.
Very true, it is a pity others share that view. The majority of people on this site think there is no other phone/mobile device that is as capable as the iPhone
You forget to mention that there are as many people here who insist on considering the iPhone (actually every Apple product) a failure because it is missing some features while praising other phones that misses much more.
In the your first post you said it lacks basic phone features while in the next one you relate those features to business use! Basic phones are not usually business friendly. We all know that every phone is missing few features. It is what important that counts.
Well actually you are wrong. There are a number of basic phones that have things like BT, or IRDA, which can be used to tether a device to the phone for data (say for SFA applications).
Also, for most business users, the companies want them to have basic features, the majority don't need data, don't need a fancy interface, don't need installable applications. They need a device that can make phones calls, and receive text messages. They don't like them spending unnecessary money.
Why don't they write that app for the iphone then I hear you say, hmm, background applications work really well when someone rings you...
You forget to mention that there are as many people here who insist on considering the iPhone (actually every Apple product) a failure because it is missing some features while praising other phones that misses much more.
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
Note to Nokia fans, Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, and Appleinsider is a USA centric meesage forum. Nokia is like a has been here, maybe a never was in the USA. On top of that, there are few if any subsidized N-series phones here. They are all sold unsubsidized at astronomical $700+, and maybe after a year, at $400. Not only that, most of them don't support the HSDPA frequencies used in the USA, and obviously there's maybe only one or two el cheap or free CDMA phones available.
You mean similar to that fact that Apple has next to no marketshare outside the USA? It is been like that for a long time, and will continue to be like that until Apple learns how to adapt to other markets properly.
As for Nokia, and CDMA phones, have a read up about Qualcomm, and their anti-competive practices.
Of course Nokia knows a thing about cell phones, but something is wrong with their business model when their marketshare has shrunken from 20% to 7% in the USA over the last few years. On top of that, Apple is a very American company. Very US-centric in mentality. The Tube has a long way to go before it can dent the USA market.
If Nokia can't get the Tube subsidized, it's going to cost $300+ in the the USA, and that ain't no price for a low or mid-range phone.
ok, let's look at some stats shall we...
http://www.gsmworld.com/news/statist...tats_q2_08.pdf
http://www.gsmworld.com/documents/20_year_factsheet.pdf
ok, on the first link subscriber connections Q2 2008
GSM 80.79%, including HSPA varieties, 85%
Could be one reason not to flock to CDMA2000 etc...
USA/Canada 7.65% of the connections...
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
I consider the iPhone a failure in the same way i consider Apple screwing up their other products, especially in Europe, they try and continue with an American sales method, which doesn't work here
I am with you here. I work for a large American company which has me based in here in Europe and I can say that Apple is very short sighted in their biz models when it comes to Europe. What works in the US does not always translate to what will work in Europe. Nokia it seems understands this by not spending too much time and effort in the US. Nokia will concentrate on other markets that have a similar European strategy, and they will make their money there. As you mentioned, the basic phone has the ability to do things that the iPhone simply can not do, and in some cases, vice versa. Apple can not seriously consider the iPhone an Enterprise phone with the way it is configured. It is a great media device that happens to make phone calls. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for Nokia, and CDMA phones, have a read up about Qualcomm, and their anti-competive practices.
Qualcomm practices brought about GSM. The Europeans were not going to license their tech, so they created their own.
You mean similar to that fact that Apple has next to no marketshare outside the USA? It is been like that for a long time, and will continue to be like that until Apple learns how to adapt to other markets properly.
Sure. But it's a matter of perspective with Apple's USA bread and butter and Nokia indifference to the USA. Apple is only going for 1% or 2% marketshare. The profitable, higher end of the market. If relegated to "smartphone" marketshare, they are trying for about 15%.
But the matter at hand is how is Nokia going to dent Apple? They aren't and the Tube aint going to do it for many business reasons. Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, they refuse to offer more than a fraction of their phone portfolio here, and they apparently can't or won't make deals with American carriers.
How in the world is the Tube going to change that? It probably won't be sold in the USA until Summer of 2009. Not only that, they are offering music subscription service that only allows consumers to play the music on CWM registered devices, have decided to play with the devil by paying music labels for every CWM device sold (that doesn't sound like a good precedent to me), and "your" music goes poof if CWM dies.
As for Nokia, and CDMA phones, have a read up about Qualcomm, and their anti-competive practices.
ok, let's look at some stats shall we...
http://www.gsmworld.com/news/statist...tats_q2_08.pdf
http://www.gsmworld.com/documents/20_year_factsheet.pdf
ok, on the first link subscriber connections Q2 2008
GSM 80.79%, including HSPA varieties, 85%
Could be one reason not to flock to CDMA2000 etc...
USA/Canada 7.65% of the connections...
wow, big market there, I think Apple has more to be worried about than Nokia has.
Asia/Pacific is the market to go for, and another market Apple struggles in, the phones are over priced for the majority of people, and the plans associated with them are either too expensive, or too low for the data caps.
Look at the second link, especially the YoY growth. Huge growth there for the USA compared to the other markets (especially China), Nokia already has a good handle on the practice of providing networks with branded phones (as terrible as the concept is), how is Apple in that arena (well they will drop features as AT&T ask I suppose)
I don't give a flying fig about CDMA versus GSM. I was just commenting on Nokia's lack of effort in the USA. There's a reason most of the board don't really know about or care about Nokia. It's amply demonstrated with the 7% marketshare figure (a downward trend too). It's amply demonstrated with Nokia only offering a small fraction of their portfolio through American carriers, selling N-series phones unsubsidized, and not even trying for the CDMA market (which is half the market, but I understand the business reason for not doing so).
Samsung, LG and Motorola are better regarded here among consumers, let alone RIM.
Sure. But it's a matter of perspective with Apple's USA bread and butter and Nokia indifference to the USA. Apple is only going for 1% or 2% marketshare. The profitable, higher end of the market. If relegated to "smartphone" marketshare, they are trying for about 15%.
But the matter at hand is how is Nokia going to dent Apple? They aren't and the Tube aint going to do it for many business reasons. Nokia has 7% marketshare in the USA, they refuse to offer more than a fraction of their phone portfolio here, and they apparently can't or won't make deals with American carriers.
How in the world is the Tube going to change that? It probably won't be sold in the USA until Summer of 2009. Not only that, they are offering music subscription service that only allows consumers to play the music on CWM registered devices, have decided to play with the devil by paying music labels for every CWM device sold (that doesn't sound like a good precedent to me), and "your" music goes poof if CWM dies.
I don't give a flying fig about CDMA versus GSM. I was just commenting on Nokia's lack of effort in the USA. There's a reason most of the board don't really know about or care about Nokia. It's amply demonstrated with the 7% marketshare figure (a downward trend too). It's amply demonstrated with Nokia only offering a small fraction of their portfolio through American carriers, selling N-series phones unsubsidized, and not even trying for the CDMA market (which is half the market, but I understand the business reason for not doing so).
Samsung, LG and Motorola are better regarded here among consumers, let alone RIM.
You make a lot of sense but as far as Nokia is concerned, I would not waste much time on the US as well. If I can still sell phones there (probably still more than Apple. Not sure but someone will be more than happy here to rush to Apple's defense) and make a profit why put a lot of time and resources in a highly fragmented market. On any given day, Nokia out sells RIM, LG, Moto, Samsung and SE combine (close to it for sure) so if they can get more of the market than anyone else with not as much effort, why not. I am quite sure that if Nokia saw real sales potential in the US, they would make a earnest effort in generating sales.
The difference between the Tube (5800 Express) and the iPhone is that the Tube fulfills the phone part to a higher degree than the iPhone. It will be interesting to see if Apple makes a real attempt to make the iPhone more "phone" like. Simple things like tethering, or VoIP over GSM/3G would make a huge impact.
You make a lot of sense but as far as Nokia is concerned, I would not waste much time on the US as well. If I can still sell phones there (probably still more than Apple. Not sure but someone will be more than happy here to rush to Apple's defense) and make a profit why put a lot of time and resources in a highly fragmented market. On any given day, Nokia out sells RIM, LG, Moto, Samsung and SE combine (close to it for sure) so if they can get more of the market than anyone else with not as much effort, why not. I am quite sure that if Nokia saw real sales potential in the US, they would make a earnest effort in generating sales.
No need to rationalize Nokia's poor performance in the USA nor any reason to go insulting the cell phone market in the USA.
The difference between the Tube (5800 Express) and the iPhone is that the Tube fulfills the phone part to a higher degree than the iPhone. It will be interesting to see if Apple makes a real attempt to make the iPhone more "phone" like. Simple things like tethering, or VoIP over GSM/3G would make a huge impact.
VOIP (over WiFi) is already available as a 3rd party app for the iPhone. Tethering and bandwidth hogging apps are still hampered by the limitations of the cell networks. Tethering will likely become available eventually, but it'll come at least an additional $15/month cost.
But as has been talked about time and again, Apple is a 90% company when it comes to features. They choose the features that are the most useful to people, make it easy and fun to use, and market it as such. The features that are rarely used or are of limited usefulness, or sometimes, features that are against Apple's strategic goals, aren't supported. The strategy works as is demonstrated by Apple's success. So the answer to your musing is pretty much, no. They'll always trail in the spec shootouts.
No need to rationalize Nokia's poor performance in the USA nor any reason to go insulting the cell phone market in the USA.
VOIP (over WiFi) is already available as a 3rd party app for the iPhone. Tethering and bandwidth hogging apps are still hampered by the limitations of the cell networks. Tethering will likely become available eventually, but it'll come at least an additional $15/month cost.
But as has been talked about time and again, Apple is a 90% company when it comes to features. They choose the features that are the most useful to people, make it easy and fun to use, and market it as such. The features that are rarely used or are of limited usefulness, or sometimes, features that are against Apple's strategic goals, aren't supported. The strategy works as is demonstrated by Apple's success. So the answer to your musing is pretty much, no. They'll always trail in the spec shootouts.
I wasn't intending to insult the US cell phone industry. I am just stating facts. If the facts come across as insults, I would say that you need to get with your cell operators and have them fix the facts.
I know that VoIP over wifi is available. But this is limited. I do not happen to have a wifi base station in my pocket, but I have a ubiquitous cell network that is everywhere. If the networks in the US can not handle something as simple as tethering, then they are in sad shape. Why does it have to cost for a service that all other operators allow for free? To simply shrug this off as the way the game is play, sort of makes you part of the problem, not part of the solution. Operators are in biz because of us, not in spite of us. Try a one week, or even one day boycott of making cell calls and see how they respond.
You might be right about Apple being a 90% company, but it is obvious that Apple will not allow, hinders, blocks or dissuades developers, through its SDK from providing apps that fill the 10% niche market.