Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

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  • Reply 21 of 1665
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    I am doing videos for a living. You cannot capture DV via USB and the FW-to-USB adapter mentioned does not even provide the full USB 2.0 bandwidth (it may be able to sustain 80-100 Mbps, assuming the CPU is not stalling, which in reality does happen).



    I've captured 50Mbps DVC-Pro HD across USB. It does work.
  • Reply 22 of 1665
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Apple cannot blame Intel here. They use the same chipset in the Macbook Pro and it has FW. This is a needless distinction between the two.



    Its because of Intel's lack of support that the computer market so overwhelmingly favors USB over Firewire.
  • Reply 23 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Nah, you are the one that is "plain wrong."



    1) Apple has pushed FireWire constantly and persistently, and I don't think they can be blamed that no one else took it up.



    2) Apple still supports FireWire on every single product it makes *except* the entry-level "cheap" (for Apple) MacBook.



    3) You are not differentiating between consumer level cameras and Pro gear.



    Bottom line is if you have a camera that only does FireWire, it's either old or "pro enough" that you should be comfortable affording the extra $700 bucks for the MacBook Pro.



    The guy above that says he's a "video producer" but can only afford a MacBook and not a Pro? Give me a break. What a bunch of whiners.



    You have positively no idea whatyou are talking about. Not the faintest clue...



    2) I cannot carry a Mac Pro, Mini or iMac around in my video backpack which weighs 80 lbs already. The MacBook is not cheap - it is something like 100% more expensive than competitive laptops on the market (that may be uglier and do not have a Unibody, sure, but many other features Apple users will not see in a decade). With most laptops I can add least add a FW-port using the PCMCIA or ExpressCard slot - the MacBook offers nothing at all while approaching the price of a Lenovo W500 when fully equipped.

    3) I did exactly that. The mentioned HV20 as well as the current HV30 are both consumer gear and they (and a slew of others) do support capturing via FW only.



    I mentioned gear that is current, consumer level and you should get your facts straight. Affording a laptop is not the question. Carrying more weight and volume than needed is the question.



    People who are forced to change their entire infrastructure and maybe have to move back to Windows because of Apple's stupid decisions are whiners? Without all these creative whiners that have kept Apple alive for a decade there would be no Apple today.
  • Reply 24 of 1665
    alanskyalansky Posts: 235member
    The way I see it, removing firewire from the new MacBook was a very unfriendly move on Apple's part that makes everyone's life a little harder without any appreciable benefit to anyone but Apple. Camcorder connectivity is just one of the many thorny issues that Mac users now face. How, for example, does one transfer data from an older Mac to a new MacBook without using Migration Assistant, which requires firewire? Perhaps ethernet can be used, but ethernet's much slower transfer speed means it will take an entire afternoon just to migrate your data.



    SCSII was really long in the tooth when Apple dropped it in favor of USB and firewire. This abrupt and unexpected transition, on the other hand, is like a bombshell out of the blue that scatters shrapnel everywhere, hurting a whole lotta people. Bad for you, Apple.
  • Reply 24 of 1665
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    Computer peripherals are all digital these days, so there's really no need for different kinds of ports any more. Even the monitor could be USB if the standard was fast enough.



    Perhaps Apple could relaunch/rebrand Firewire as a new kind of "Universal port"
  • Reply 26 of 1665
    pmjoepmjoe Posts: 565member
    One should not forget that FireWire is also still the "standard" way to do digital recordings off of cable STBs. I believe the FCC still requires cable companies to provide a box with FireWire when asked (there is no other alternative). My STB has it. I have a FireWire scanner and drives too. Plus, I've used FireWire target mode too many times to count.



    Keep pressing Apple to get FireWire back into the next revision. I'd suggest everyone skip this model and either go with the lower end MacBook or the 15" Pro.
  • Reply 27 of 1665
    So what does Steve want people to do? Throw out their firewire cameras and buy new USB based ones? What about Time Machine. I use FW800 with Time Machine and I can't even imagine having to use USB to back up my stuff
  • Reply 28 of 1665
    mpantonempantone Posts: 2,092member
    As a MacBook owner with a couple of Firewire devices (one external disk drive and a Plextor DVD burner from the days when I only had a Combo Drive), I understand Apple's decision to eighty-six Firewire from their entry-level notebook. (Well, not quite their entry-level notebook, since the "white plastic" version still has it.) Apple has a long history of discontinuing support for legacy interfaces quickly (DB-9 serial ports, floppy drives, etc.) and moving on.



    Steve's right: my Canon VIXIA HF10 transfers HD video via USB 2.0.



    Had the previous generation MacBook been equipped with Firewire 800, there would be more reason to gripe with this loss, but right now, it looks like Firewire is on its way out. One hope: perhaps this will encourage the adoption of a high-speed wireless peripheral transfer interface.



    I'll pick up one of the new aluminum MacBooks in about six months. Before that happens, I guess I'll look for an external USB 2.0 drive enclosure to replace the Firewire one. The DVD burner I don't need to worry about since it has both interfaces (Firewire 400 and USB 2.0).
  • Reply 29 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    If you remove it, at least give people an advanced warning.



    Apple removed FW from iPod...iPhone connection is USB only...what kind of additional warning do you want? It looked pretty obvious to me.



    OK, considering this (no FW on Macbook) as the warning then. It will next be removed from Mini, then iMac, then MBP and Mac Pro...
  • Reply 30 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by someoneinca View Post


    I use FW800 with Time Machine and I can't even imagine having to use USB to back up my stuff



    Yup. FW800/400 is slow. USB is slower.



    If Steve Jobs hadn't gone senile, the iPods would have Gigabit Firewire (FW3200) now with heavy marking about how fast you can load up your must compared to USB.
  • Reply 31 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post


    Why not drop the Ethernet port and replace it with FireWire 400? Apple already sells a USB to Ethernet adapter for the MacBook Air's. This would have been the best solution for everyone...



    You use Gigabit Ethernet, which I find to be very necessary for my home network.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by retroneo View Post


    All you need is a simple cable



    USB to Firewire

    http://www.everythingusb.com/news/index/3889.htm



    Windows only and $86? Not an ideal soltuion by any means.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post


    $1300 for a cheap notebook. Yeah right!



    The cheapest MacBook that Apple sells with FW400 costs $999, and it's a fine machine that is tried and true.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by corinhorn View Post


    All that I know for sure is I will not spend one bloody dime on an Apple notebook until FireWire is back on the MacBook. I'm not going to spend an extra $500 to get the MacBook Pro.



    Problem solved, spend $300 less for a MacBook with FW400.
  • Reply 32 of 1665
    zandroszandros Posts: 537member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by corinhorn View Post


    Why didn't Apple do this for the MacBook



    Because market support is nonexistent, and therefore Apple will have to bear all costs.



    I haven't found any Ethernet to Firewire routers, and there's no implementation of IEEE1394c.



    /Adrian
  • Reply 33 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post


    If Steve Jobs hadn't gone senile, the iPods would have Gigabit Firewire now with heavy marking about how fast you can load up your must compared to USB.



    1) Gigabit Firewire? There is a standard in the works for FW3200 which is 3.2Gbps.



    2) If Apple offered only FW there would be little to no uptake of iPods on non-Mac PCs.
  • Reply 34 of 1665
    Real pros need to get the bestest and the fastest; i.e., MacBook Pros and FW800 so there's not a problem.



    If you're not a real pro, OR, are a pro but are willing to sacrifice horse power (CPU/GPU), expandability (CardBus), faster throughput (FW800), screen size and res, etc. for the smaller footprint of a Macbook, THEN you can grab a previous gen 2.4GHz MacBook refurb for $1050 at store.apple.com. Mind you, this was the TOP OF THE LINE Macbook till 48 hours ago.



    By the time that machine is obsolete--say 2-3 years from now--the aluminum Macbooks will have USB3, or maybe even FW800.





    So really, I don't know what all the effing bitching is about here.





    Whining because you can't have the latest and the coolest without having to sacrifice FW400? Tough luck. Call the whaaaaambulance. And here's the world's tiniest violin playing a song just for you (T_T)/\\
  • Reply 35 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by someoneinca View Post


    So what does Steve want people to do? Throw out their firewire cameras and buy new USB based ones? What about Time Machine. I use FW800 with Time Machine and I can't even imagine having to use USB to back up my stuff



    If you are using FW800 then you aren't using a MacBook, so your point on this is moot since MacBook has never had a FW800 port.
  • Reply 36 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    I am doing videos for a living. You cannot capture DV via USB and the FW-to-USB adapter mentioned does not even provide the full USB 2.0 bandwidth (it may be able to sustain 80-100 Mbps, assuming the CPU is not stalling, which in reality does happen).



    Agree. Many newer camcorders have USB2 connectors, but I wonder how many will allow device control and full bandwidth into iMovie. My Canon HV30 doesn't. Some of the new cameras provide proprietary drivers and software for Windows PCs to enable video transfer via USB, but how will they work with a MacBook? Apologies to Mr. Jobs, but video via USB is a "world of hurt."



    Firewire may be going away eventually, but it's much too early to remove it from MacBooks. What about normal consumers with FW DV/HDV cameras and FW hard drives? Unfortunately, the MacBook Pro is now the minimum laptop for regular, non-professional users. MacBooks are for ... who? My mother, maybe. With the world going into a recession, Apple now is saddled with a poorly priced and limited lineup of laptops.



    Jobs is really out of touch on this issue. He has always been pig headed but brilliant; now he's pig-headed but flat out wrong.
  • Reply 37 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,428member
    People keep thinking that Firewire is some one trick pony.





    Video- Yes many of the "current" camcorders are moving to USB transfer. Who here can tell me exactly how the process of transporting clips into iMovie works? Is it even standardized? What about the thousands of DV cameras sold within the last few years? Requiring people to upgrade their equipment to support Apple's new hardware is indeed an "Apple Tax"



    Audio- Here is where USB is improving but Firewire still offers decent advantage. The Apogee Duet is such a slick audio interface. It's wholly powered by the FW bus and integrates so well with Core Audio you can control it from within Logic or Garageband. It is spendy at $500 but easy to tote around.



    USB 3.0 is going to be a decent upgrade and offer some of the bi-directional capability of FW today but it's still 6 months or so away. Apple should kept FW on this revision. Such a poor decision.
  • Reply 38 of 1665
    Well I may not be recording HD video, but I do use it with time machine and other external drives. Since it takes less time to transfer large files over firewire than USB 2. But I guess Steve knows what he is talking about and doing.
  • Reply 39 of 1665
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    I don't think only professionals need fast ports. These days even consumers need to transfer large video files around.



    Case in point: try syncing a movie to your iPhone and be prepared for a long wait. The first time I did this I thought something must be wrong, but no.
  • Reply 40 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Macrooster View Post


    But I guess Steve knows what he is talking about and doing.



    Nope. Steve has gone senile.
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