A lot of the ones you're choosing look more like mixing boards (though I haven't looked too closely), which usually throw a stereo track via USB to a nearby computer. More for live sound than in the studio. They've had USB for awhile. It's the computer interfaces for multi-track (real multi-track, not the mixer, two-track multi-track in a lot of adds) like the Motu and others that are the real change coming along. Firewire used to be sacrosanct in this area (except for the very cheapest two to four, maybe a midi as well, take on the road and "doodle" with types), and now we're starting to see eight and sixteen track interfaces that are going USB and seeming (at least the ones I've used) to have licked the latency problems.
If there's no built-in FireWire, you can either purchase a FireWire adapter product or use the 828mkII-USB model connected to any built-in USB port.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Yes, no one was stupid enough to try it but Motu was stupid enough to build one.
Google is your friend:
"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."
"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."
(you've earned it over the last half hour of searching
and look now you know a little more about audio... )
I refrained before because I am not an audio guy and I've gone about as far as I will.
i will discuss user interfaces, programming, games, AI, operating systems, home theater and even file systems (to some degree) at greater depth and length.
Outside of those areas, I simply sanity/fact check on the web. When someone says X can't be done, or Y doesn't exist and I'm curious if X can be done or Y exists, I bother to take a look. Mostly not because even two minute googles add up in time.
Quote:
but don't avoid explaining why the mkIII has gone FW...
Probably for the same reason that Mk II started as FW and they added USB later...
For $1444 you should just quit whining and get the MBP that TBaggins is considering.
Hmm... that's a pretty unfair comment to make to 'ross.
1) The MB Pro deal at Amazon is obviously VERY TEMPORARY. Doesn't really solve the problem of ppl being forced up to the $2000 level just to have the connectivity they want (though I'm sure Apple doesn't see it as a problem, and won't unless it comes back to bite them in the ass).
2) Why assume that the other poster is in a position right this second to make a major purchase? Maybe it won't happen for a couple months. Maybe it won't happen 'til next year. By which time, said MB Pro deal is long gone.
3) It's been my experience on the AI boards that most of the ppl who accuse others of "whining" are actually defining "whining" as "anything said which does not agree with my personal point-of-view."
At which point, they then "whine about whining".
Quote:
No one has said that Apple is always right. That's another strawman argument.
Not really. Plenty of ppl on AI seem to be knee-jerk "whatever Steve says" -ers.
At best, it's kinda like they're John McCain, and Steve is George Bush. Sure, they've disagreed/been independent once in a blue moon, but overall they agree with their man reflexively, nearly every time, and whenever in doubt too.
I like Steve, but he has a very strong set of biases and priorities in design, marketing and pricing that is not for everyone, and which should not lend themselves to blind agreement in every or almost every case, "just 'cuz". Some ppl do understand what they're buying into when they go along with Steve in all things, but many are just fanbois and frankly do not.
Quote:
However, just because you disagree with one of their decisions doesn't make it wrong either.
Just like agreeing doesn't make it right either. So why even bring it up?
Quote:
Removing FW this generation will piss folks off but allows them to continue to segment their markets into two. Before they used graphics (another $5 part difference). Now they use FW/Expresscard and that has a far lower impact to adoption than graphics.
You forgot screen size, which is important to a lot of folks. Screen size and expandability likely would've allowed them to continue to segment the markets without dumping FW prematurely, as they did. Especially considering that the price delta between the top MB and bottom MB Pro just narrowed.
Also add to this that the new MB graphics, while improved, still aren't necessarily in what you'd call 'hardcore' performance territory. So even that can still be a minor point of differentiation, along with screen and slots.
Finally, it's not like Apple is straight-jacketed into only these things if differentiation is such an extreme worry to them. Howzabout having integrated 3G on the MB Pros, eh?
Quote:
Both the MB and Mini suffered greatly when they lost discrete graphics. Now the MB is fixed. Hopefully soon the Mini will be fixed too.
Hmm, that's odd. I seem to remember ppl complaining about the MB going to integrated graphics being labelled "whiners" at the time (not necessarily by you, though it wouldn't shock me).
Now Apple finally does what ppl wanted them to do on graphics (well, more or less), and that's now super-cool and NOT "whining", 'cuz Apple now agrees that it was a good idea?
Like I said, John McCain-George Bush. AI is one weeeiiiirrrd place.
PS- Anyone else got any 'last-gen MB Pro vs new MetalBook' thoughts for me?
The size isn't all that different as previous pictures has shown.
If everyone had your attitude, we'd still be carrying 10lb 14" notebooks everywhere. Just because you don't see a use for it doesn't mean one doesn't exist. It's the only size that will fit into my briefcase with all the paperwork I carry. I'm not carrying a backpack to work just to get Firewire.
The video and music industries didn't get the memo. Then again, if Apple had introduced FW3200 you'd be proclaiming its the greatest thing since sliced bread, wouldn't you?
2006 would have been too soon but with FW's wane this is really the first time they could. A tad aggressive but I think the lack of graphics capabilities on the MB has been hurting them enough they did it now before USB3 was available.
They have ALWAYS had the option of better intergrated GPUs on the MB and mini and folks have hammered them for that as well. Why do I need to get a MBP to play games, blah blah? Apple is stupid, blah blah. There was significant bitching about the Intel Mini vs the G4 mini in terms of graphics and the fact that aTV has a real GPU when the Mini doesn't.
Whether FW disappears on the Mini is debatable. But losing FW on the Mini to get better graphics is a good trade as opposed to staying with intel GMAs.
A tad agressive is right.
they are trying to tell manufacturers something.
And if the article about Apple positioning this as a business laptop is true, well, they don't need FW either.
I woud have preferred they had waited for a replacement, but, that's not always Apple.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some new products out that will get around this before too long.
since the MB is clearly priced at the higher end purchaser - despite a number claims that it's most often purchased by joe the cleaner.
off you go - do your best !
yes i'll quit "whining" and purchase an MBP
when you provide one good reason i should do that
It's actually bought in huge numbers by students. Not the highest income group. But a group that sees a good deal.
Price isn't always the first consideration people make when they purchase something. There's a mix of values. I'm sure you know that when you make your own purchases.
People don't just buy Macbooks because of the way it looks, they are buying it because of the OS. Mostly, the OS.
If they have to pay more to get that, they often will. A couple of hundred bucks here and there isn't really that much in the overall expense sheet. If you plan to keep a machine for a couple of years or more, its actually very little.
For you, it may be different, as you already have equipment that needs FW, which the new machines don't have.
So you have to consider if you really need a new machine now, or not. If not, then you're fine. You don't HAVE to buy a machine just because new ones came out.
In business, new machines are bought every three years, because that's how long it takes to depreciate them. At that point, it costs more to keep a machine, then to get a new one. As the article I posted says, $1,500 is about the price where the whole thing pays off.
How about calling the "new MetalBooks" "MacBricks"? It's shorter and links up with the "brick" conundrum prior to their release.
Mmm... it just doesn't sound sexy. 'Brick' is something you think of as sucking, or being non-functional. Like how Apple's software update 'bricked' jailbreaked iPhones. Not a great connotation.
Quote:
Incidentally, if Apple comes out with a low-end netbook, I suggest we dub it the MacBook Po'
It's actually bought in huge numbers by students. Not the highest income group. But a group that sees a good deal.
Price isn't always the first consideration people make when they purchase something. There's a mix of values. I'm sure you know that when you make your own purchases.
People don't just buy Macbooks because of the way it looks, they are buying it because of the OS. Mostly, the OS.
If they have to pay more to get that, they often will. A couple of hundred bucks here and there isn't really that much in the overall expense sheet. If you plan to keep a machine for a couple of years or more, its actually very little.
For you, it may be different, as you already have equipment that needs FW, which the new machines don't have.
So you have to consider if you really need a new machine now, or not. If not, then you're fine. You don't HAVE to buy a machine just because new ones came out.
In business, new machines are bought every three years, because that's how long it takes to depreciate them. At that point, it costs more to keep a machine, then to get a new one. As the article I posted says, $1,500 is about the price where the whole thing pays off.
i'd be actually interested to hear what "real" business people
have to say about the way this MB update has been done
and about purchasing apple products (hardware and software) and trying to keep them up to date.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
A tad agressive is right.
they are trying to tell manufacturers something.
And if the article about Apple positioning this as a business laptop is true, well, they don't need FW either.
I woud have preferred they had waited for a replacement, but, that's not always Apple.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some new products out that will get around this before too long.
i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.
If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.
I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...
However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?
We're already heard from some schools in this thread...
Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.
You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.
Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)
people like the sound of the mkII more than... ? the mkIII ?
interesting - tell me more - is it just the pre-amps or the A/D convertors ?
I haven't seen any detailed reviews but i'm always keen on knowing
if they've gone cheap on either the A/D convertors or the pre-amps
(both of which won't have anything to do with FW performance)
Who can tell? I go through this in my audio groups. People like something, and they attribute it to different things, without understanding the circuitry.
I've been told it sounds a bit "warmer". That can mean several things. Without my taking one and testing it, I can't tell exactly what.
i'd be actually interested to hear what "real" business people
have to say about the way this MB update has been done
and about purchasing apple products (hardware and software) and trying to keep them up to date.
I don't know what you mean by keeping them up to date. Most business don't try to keep a current product up to date. In fact, that's the last thing they want to do.
They don't want features they won't use. The more there are, the more problems there are.
Quote:
i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.
If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.
I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...
However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?
We're already heard from some schools in this thread...
Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.
You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.
Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)
Those are legitimate concerns.
But Apple goes its own way. Is it right or is it wrong? Well, it's not for us to say. We can only comment on what we think is best for US. The fact that Apple is very successful the past several years shows us that.
Remember, that while Apple may be positioning itself slightly more for large business than they have before, Jobs said (right after he came back to Apple and was asked about big business) "The enterprise is not our customer"?
When businesses buy into Apple, they know that, and shrug it off. If they can't deal with it, they don't. It's that simple.
It does seem that Apple is slowly moving back into that space. A couple of years ago, Apple had 2% of the business market (in the USA). Now, it's 4.5% That's small, but it's more than doubled. It will continue to increase as students graduate and move into the work force. Everything I read in the business journals say that the employees are taking greater control of the equipment they use, and that IT, is bowing to the pressure. With about 50% of college students buying either Macbooks or Macbook Pros for school, that trend will only increase. In addition, almost a third of professors are also using Macs. That's been increasing as well.
I think that the idea behind Snow Leopard is partly due to the business question. Apple wants to streamline the OS to make it more easily upgradable, and to work better on todays increasingly core-centric machines. business, much more so than consumers is interested in efficiency. This will go a long way towards that.
It's certainly correct that very big companies screw up. We only have to look around us to see the environment that we are in economically to know that's true.
I do also think that Apple is looking further down the road where FW becomes unimportant for the vast majority of users. That's certainly tough for those who need it now. But, while I've said that the MBP thing is tiring, it's also true. I can, in the end, only go back to what I said earlier. If you really don't need a new machine, then don't buy one. People don't need excess to what works well. That doesn't mean that people won't want the coolest thing around (even though they're loath to admit to it).
However, in business, we buy what we do need. If we can't buy a Macbook, then we buy a Macbook Pro, like it or not. I often would have preferred to buy smaller, less expensive, towers from Apple, but they didn't make them, so I bought Powermacs (we sold the business before the switch to Intel). My machines at home are now 24" iMacs for my family, who finds them to be fine, but I'm looking forward to a new Mac Pro. If they had something smaller, I might buy it, but they don't. It's either that, or move to Windows, which I won't do.
You have to decide what's most important to you, and do that.
In the long run, the money isn't that important to a business. If the size and weight do matter, that's another thing, but if you are lugging much other equipment around, as I often had to, then the difference between the MB and the MBP is nothing.
Really, all the other arguments are irrelevant to you.
Comments
one from Roland/Edirol:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...x?ObjectId=860
Digital though.
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M16DX/reviews/
A lot of the ones you're choosing look more like mixing boards (though I haven't looked too closely), which usually throw a stereo track via USB to a nearby computer. More for live sound than in the studio. They've had USB for awhile. It's the computer interfaces for multi-track (real multi-track, not the mixer, two-track multi-track in a lot of adds) like the Motu and others that are the real change coming along. Firewire used to be sacrosanct in this area (except for the very cheapest two to four, maybe a midi as well, take on the road and "doodle" with types), and now we're starting to see eight and sixteen track interfaces that are going USB and seeming (at least the ones I've used) to have licked the latency problems.
Hey, look...google found me a picture of the MKII with a USB port in the back. That was sure harder than making stuff up about needing an adapter...
i stand corrected on the USB only model availability
but about the adapter
i don't make stuff up duuuuuudddddde
If there's no built-in FireWire, you can either purchase a FireWire adapter product or use the 828mkII-USB model connected to any built-in USB port.
Yes, no one was stupid enough to try it but Motu was stupid enough to build one.
Google is your friend:
"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=10
"low latency" is relative - i've heard some pretty nasty delay-like latency described as low...
but then maybe i'm just avoiding
i'd prefer to see a pro review before purchase - but that's just me.
the other thing is CPU load - just because the computer can do it doesn't make it optimal
my old core duo macbook can run up to 14 tracks of 96 kHz audio
but it sweats like a pig doing so and the fans (noise!) are maxed out the whole time...
USB would be worse... if it even worked.
so yes take your shot
(you've earned it over the last half hour of searching
and look now you know a little more about audio...
but don't avoid explaining why the mkIII has gone FW...
Google is your friend:
"Sorry, but again I have to disagree, when I'm getting 24/96 on my USB2.0 with multiple tracks, and my friend runs a MOTU 828MkII USB2.0 with 8 tracks at a time. No glitch, low latency."
http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...5&postcount=10
yes and if you look at the comments on harmony central
and here you'll see that latency is an issue
(amid rumours that the mkII is being phased out)
and yet strangely the ones with the firewire version don't complain about this...
Note that the 828MkII was originally released in FW only in 2004 when it won awards etc
(which is why the initial reviews make no mention of USB) and then later in Nov 2005
they put out the USB2 version
but whoever's feeling confident - feel free to buy the USB version
so yes take your shot
(you've earned it over the last half hour of searching
and look now you know a little more about audio...
I refrained before because I am not an audio guy and I've gone about as far as I will.
i will discuss user interfaces, programming, games, AI, operating systems, home theater and even file systems (to some degree) at greater depth and length.
Outside of those areas, I simply sanity/fact check on the web. When someone says X can't be done, or Y doesn't exist and I'm curious if X can be done or Y exists, I bother to take a look. Mostly not because even two minute googles add up in time.
but don't avoid explaining why the mkIII has gone FW...
Probably for the same reason that Mk II started as FW and they added USB later...
Probably for the same reason that Mk II started as FW and they added USB later...
but that only concludes that FW is still the 1st choice
which goes completely against any conclusions
that FW is dead or behind or being phased out
or that due to increased CPU power USB has caught up...
but you may be right regarding a USB version
now that Apple has forced the hand of those 3rd party manufacturers chasing the MB market
they might feel compelled to bring out USB options
which I'm sure a number of USB fans will use to conclude that FW is dead
until they start running into the inevitable problems with USB 2
latency, CPU use, heat, memory, sample frequency, bit rate, n° of track limitations etc
For $1444 you should just quit whining and get the MBP that TBaggins is considering.
Hmm... that's a pretty unfair comment to make to 'ross.
1) The MB Pro deal at Amazon is obviously VERY TEMPORARY. Doesn't really solve the problem of ppl being forced up to the $2000 level just to have the connectivity they want (though I'm sure Apple doesn't see it as a problem, and won't unless it comes back to bite them in the ass).
2) Why assume that the other poster is in a position right this second to make a major purchase? Maybe it won't happen for a couple months. Maybe it won't happen 'til next year. By which time, said MB Pro deal is long gone.
3) It's been my experience on the AI boards that most of the ppl who accuse others of "whining" are actually defining "whining" as "anything said which does not agree with my personal point-of-view."
At which point, they then "whine about whining".
No one has said that Apple is always right. That's another strawman argument.
Not really. Plenty of ppl on AI seem to be knee-jerk "whatever Steve says" -ers.
At best, it's kinda like they're John McCain, and Steve is George Bush. Sure, they've disagreed/been independent once in a blue moon, but overall they agree with their man reflexively, nearly every time, and whenever in doubt too.
I like Steve, but he has a very strong set of biases and priorities in design, marketing and pricing that is not for everyone, and which should not lend themselves to blind agreement in every or almost every case, "just 'cuz". Some ppl do understand what they're buying into when they go along with Steve in all things, but many are just fanbois and frankly do not.
However, just because you disagree with one of their decisions doesn't make it wrong either.
Just like agreeing doesn't make it right either. So why even bring it up?
Removing FW this generation will piss folks off but allows them to continue to segment their markets into two. Before they used graphics (another $5 part difference). Now they use FW/Expresscard and that has a far lower impact to adoption than graphics.
You forgot screen size, which is important to a lot of folks. Screen size and expandability likely would've allowed them to continue to segment the markets without dumping FW prematurely, as they did. Especially considering that the price delta between the top MB and bottom MB Pro just narrowed.
Also add to this that the new MB graphics, while improved, still aren't necessarily in what you'd call 'hardcore' performance territory. So even that can still be a minor point of differentiation, along with screen and slots.
Finally, it's not like Apple is straight-jacketed into only these things if differentiation is such an extreme worry to them. Howzabout having integrated 3G on the MB Pros, eh?
Both the MB and Mini suffered greatly when they lost discrete graphics. Now the MB is fixed. Hopefully soon the Mini will be fixed too.
Hmm, that's odd. I seem to remember ppl complaining about the MB going to integrated graphics being labelled "whiners" at the time (not necessarily by you, though it wouldn't shock me).
Now Apple finally does what ppl wanted them to do on graphics (well, more or less), and that's now super-cool and NOT "whining", 'cuz Apple now agrees that it was a good idea?
Like I said, John McCain-George Bush. AI is one weeeiiiirrrd place.
PS- Anyone else got any 'last-gen MB Pro vs new MetalBook' thoughts for me?
(Thanks for yours btw, Vin.)
...
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MultiMix16U2
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHXENYX2442FX
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_u...rackUltra.html
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...-0404-usb.html
http://store.apple.com/us/product/TQ...A&mco=MTA4NTcx
http://www.midi-store.com/Yamaha-Aud...e-p-17994.html
http://www.zzounds.com/item--MTU828MKII
http://www.newworldproaudio.com/Yama..._358-1873.html
May or may not be "pro" quality but good enough for GarageBand.
Probably PC users asking them to do it. These all came before the MB appeared.
inertia.
You don't know or probably don't care anything about music production, but the USB versions are inferior to the firewire version. Take the MOTU 828.
The firewire version is 24-bit, 192khz and has 28 inputs and 30 outputs. The USB version is 24-bit 96khz has 20 inputs and 22 inputs.
Firewire is dead, get over it.
Firewire is dead. Long live Firewire!
PS- Anyone else got any 'last-gen MB Pro vs new MetalBook' thoughts for me?
...
How about calling the "new MetalBooks" "MacBricks"? It's shorter and links up with the "brick" conundrum prior to their release.
Incidentally, if Apple comes out with a low-end netbook, I suggest we dub it the MacBook Po'
The size isn't all that different as previous pictures has shown.
If everyone had your attitude, we'd still be carrying 10lb 14" notebooks everywhere. Just because you don't see a use for it doesn't mean one doesn't exist. It's the only size that will fit into my briefcase with all the paperwork I carry. I'm not carrying a backpack to work just to get Firewire.
Firewire is dead, get over it.
The video and music industries didn't get the memo. Then again, if Apple had introduced FW3200 you'd be proclaiming its the greatest thing since sliced bread, wouldn't you?
2006 would have been too soon but with FW's wane this is really the first time they could. A tad aggressive but I think the lack of graphics capabilities on the MB has been hurting them enough they did it now before USB3 was available.
They have ALWAYS had the option of better intergrated GPUs on the MB and mini and folks have hammered them for that as well. Why do I need to get a MBP to play games, blah blah? Apple is stupid, blah blah. There was significant bitching about the Intel Mini vs the G4 mini in terms of graphics and the fact that aTV has a real GPU when the Mini doesn't.
Whether FW disappears on the Mini is debatable. But losing FW on the Mini to get better graphics is a good trade as opposed to staying with intel GMAs.
A tad agressive is right.
they are trying to tell manufacturers something.
And if the article about Apple positioning this as a business laptop is true, well, they don't need FW either.
I woud have preferred they had waited for a replacement, but, that's not always Apple.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some new products out that will get around this before too long.
since the MB is clearly priced at the higher end purchaser - despite a number claims that it's most often purchased by joe the cleaner.
off you go - do your best !
yes i'll quit "whining" and purchase an MBP
when you provide one good reason i should do that
It's actually bought in huge numbers by students. Not the highest income group. But a group that sees a good deal.
Price isn't always the first consideration people make when they purchase something. There's a mix of values. I'm sure you know that when you make your own purchases.
People don't just buy Macbooks because of the way it looks, they are buying it because of the OS. Mostly, the OS.
If they have to pay more to get that, they often will. A couple of hundred bucks here and there isn't really that much in the overall expense sheet. If you plan to keep a machine for a couple of years or more, its actually very little.
For you, it may be different, as you already have equipment that needs FW, which the new machines don't have.
So you have to consider if you really need a new machine now, or not. If not, then you're fine. You don't HAVE to buy a machine just because new ones came out.
In business, new machines are bought every three years, because that's how long it takes to depreciate them. At that point, it costs more to keep a machine, then to get a new one. As the article I posted says, $1,500 is about the price where the whole thing pays off.
m
yes but you'll notice that there's no USB connection on the unit
which means that you have to use a FW to USB adapter
(essentially the intelligence of the unit plays dumb and the host controls)
which you can do with a number of FW units
It does seem though, that most people prefer the sound of the mkII, which might be why it's still in the lineup.
I don't do much complex audio right now, so the Studio is fine for me, and otherwise, I still use Pro Tools, as I've been doing for years.
How about calling the "new MetalBooks" "MacBricks"? It's shorter and links up with the "brick" conundrum prior to their release.
Mmm... it just doesn't sound sexy. 'Brick' is something you think of as sucking, or being non-functional. Like how Apple's software update 'bricked' jailbreaked iPhones. Not a great connotation.
Incidentally, if Apple comes out with a low-end netbook, I suggest we dub it the MacBook Po'
'MacBook- Foodstamps Edition?'? 'MacBook- Govt Cheese Edition?'?
I shouldn't laugh. With the mother of all recessions on the way, that could describe a whole lotta ppl before it's through.
...
It does seem though, that most people prefer the sound of the mkII, which might be why it's still in the lineup.
I don't do much complex audio right now, so the Studio is fine for me, and otherwise, I still use Pro Tools, as I've been doing for years.
people like the sound of the mkII more than... ? the mkIII ?
interesting - tell me more - is it just the pre-amps or the A/D convertors ?
I haven't seen any detailed reviews but i'm always keen on knowing
if they've gone cheap on either the A/D convertors or the pre-amps
(both of which won't have anything to do with FW performance)
It's actually bought in huge numbers by students. Not the highest income group. But a group that sees a good deal.
Price isn't always the first consideration people make when they purchase something. There's a mix of values. I'm sure you know that when you make your own purchases.
People don't just buy Macbooks because of the way it looks, they are buying it because of the OS. Mostly, the OS.
If they have to pay more to get that, they often will. A couple of hundred bucks here and there isn't really that much in the overall expense sheet. If you plan to keep a machine for a couple of years or more, its actually very little.
For you, it may be different, as you already have equipment that needs FW, which the new machines don't have.
So you have to consider if you really need a new machine now, or not. If not, then you're fine. You don't HAVE to buy a machine just because new ones came out.
In business, new machines are bought every three years, because that's how long it takes to depreciate them. At that point, it costs more to keep a machine, then to get a new one. As the article I posted says, $1,500 is about the price where the whole thing pays off.
i'd be actually interested to hear what "real" business people
have to say about the way this MB update has been done
and about purchasing apple products (hardware and software) and trying to keep them up to date.
A tad agressive is right.
they are trying to tell manufacturers something.
And if the article about Apple positioning this as a business laptop is true, well, they don't need FW either.
I woud have preferred they had waited for a replacement, but, that's not always Apple.
I wouldn't be surprised to see some new products out that will get around this before too long.
i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.
If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.
I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...
However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?
We're already heard from some schools in this thread...
Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.
You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.
Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)
people like the sound of the mkII more than... ? the mkIII ?
interesting - tell me more - is it just the pre-amps or the A/D convertors ?
I haven't seen any detailed reviews but i'm always keen on knowing
if they've gone cheap on either the A/D convertors or the pre-amps
(both of which won't have anything to do with FW performance)
Who can tell? I go through this in my audio groups. People like something, and they attribute it to different things, without understanding the circuitry.
I've been told it sounds a bit "warmer". That can mean several things. Without my taking one and testing it, I can't tell exactly what.
i'd be actually interested to hear what "real" business people
have to say about the way this MB update has been done
and about purchasing apple products (hardware and software) and trying to keep them up to date.
I don't know what you mean by keeping them up to date. Most business don't try to keep a current product up to date. In fact, that's the last thing they want to do.
They don't want features they won't use. The more there are, the more problems there are.
i can tell you (from experience on very large, very high budget projects) that
1. just because a company's big (or makes a big profit) in no way means they do things well or the best they can
2. business is (should be) about communication, and you don't communicate to partners (read peripheral makers) by.... not communicating with them.
If Apple was serious about replacing FW then they'd do it properly - as in firstly come up with a replacement, then do a SJ "this is the next best thing" meeting, allow a period of overlap (arguably what their doing with the whitebooks - except there is no replacement...) and on the side (preferably earlier), warn the peripheral makers what's coming so that they can adapt quickly.
I know this is going to be flamed by the fanboys - but they'll take what they're given, make a little noise then still buy - either because they're locked in, or they still think Apple's cool...
However if there's anyone out there from a business that's ever considered buying a significant quantity of Macs (significant = whatever would seriously hurt your business if you had to replace them and the software with another brand.) Can you please tell us what you think of Apple's 'non-communicative' attitude... Does business have more or less confidence in Apple after these kinds of moves?
We're already heard from some schools in this thread...
Do we think Apple's doing themselves a service with this approach? OK it's nothing new, but at the same time as trying to break into the business market, they seem to be shooting themselves in the foot with their lack of communication.
You could simply respond that FW is irrelevant for business... or that MBs are irrelevant for business... but that would be avoiding the issue. The attitude towards FW shows Apple's way of doing product upgrades is hard to predict - which is the last thing any business needs at this point.
Or can large businesses have the confidence to invest heavily in Apple hard/software while Apple actively attempts to maintain a hard/software monopoly ? (Which makes all users all the more susceptible to product changes since there is no alternative without significant re-investment and wasted time.)
Those are legitimate concerns.
But Apple goes its own way. Is it right or is it wrong? Well, it's not for us to say. We can only comment on what we think is best for US. The fact that Apple is very successful the past several years shows us that.
Remember, that while Apple may be positioning itself slightly more for large business than they have before, Jobs said (right after he came back to Apple and was asked about big business) "The enterprise is not our customer"?
When businesses buy into Apple, they know that, and shrug it off. If they can't deal with it, they don't. It's that simple.
It does seem that Apple is slowly moving back into that space. A couple of years ago, Apple had 2% of the business market (in the USA). Now, it's 4.5% That's small, but it's more than doubled. It will continue to increase as students graduate and move into the work force. Everything I read in the business journals say that the employees are taking greater control of the equipment they use, and that IT, is bowing to the pressure. With about 50% of college students buying either Macbooks or Macbook Pros for school, that trend will only increase. In addition, almost a third of professors are also using Macs. That's been increasing as well.
I think that the idea behind Snow Leopard is partly due to the business question. Apple wants to streamline the OS to make it more easily upgradable, and to work better on todays increasingly core-centric machines. business, much more so than consumers is interested in efficiency. This will go a long way towards that.
It's certainly correct that very big companies screw up. We only have to look around us to see the environment that we are in economically to know that's true.
I do also think that Apple is looking further down the road where FW becomes unimportant for the vast majority of users. That's certainly tough for those who need it now. But, while I've said that the MBP thing is tiring, it's also true. I can, in the end, only go back to what I said earlier. If you really don't need a new machine, then don't buy one. People don't need excess to what works well. That doesn't mean that people won't want the coolest thing around (even though they're loath to admit to it).
However, in business, we buy what we do need. If we can't buy a Macbook, then we buy a Macbook Pro, like it or not. I often would have preferred to buy smaller, less expensive, towers from Apple, but they didn't make them, so I bought Powermacs (we sold the business before the switch to Intel). My machines at home are now 24" iMacs for my family, who finds them to be fine, but I'm looking forward to a new Mac Pro. If they had something smaller, I might buy it, but they don't. It's either that, or move to Windows, which I won't do.
You have to decide what's most important to you, and do that.
In the long run, the money isn't that important to a business. If the size and weight do matter, that's another thing, but if you are lugging much other equipment around, as I often had to, then the difference between the MB and the MBP is nothing.
Really, all the other arguments are irrelevant to you.