the whole 'not enough space' has been debunked many times
i guess they magically created the space for an SD slot using dark matter
and never mind that this was not your argument before
(which was that FW was obsolete tech given the ubiquity of USB)
oh well I guess everyone's happy now
It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB? Remember, you can’t use the back, the front, the top, the bottom, the lid, the keyboard, the display, any place that already has port, or any place that the bottom lid would touch. Besides it being obvious to most people that it was a space issue, they even moved the ports slightly closer together which messed up my having my 3G card plugged into my Mac with my iPhone cable no longer work. i had to buy a 12” USB m-to-f cable to accommodate it. Why would they move it closer together when, according to you, there is so much extra room? Why not remove all FW to replace with USB if you claim that Apple is actually go back on their decision to remove FW? If you now say that it’s just FW400, then why did they not add FW800 or another USB2.0 port? The only rational answer is that there was no space and the images prove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by infinitespecter
Please, he said that there was no need for it and half the zealots in this thread agreed. Apple is clearly changing their tune on that now.
Jobs wrote a letter saying that all new video cameras didn’t use FW anymore. While, he was incorrect as there were some older DVs that did, almost all use USB at this point. It’s been predicted that FW800 would come to the MB as soon as the lid was screwed on and user accessible. If you really think that there was no need for it why have all new Macs have it, even the Mac Mini got FW800, the MBP never lost it, if you claim that there was no need for FW at all.
I said it was too early to eliminate FW, though it's still on the way out longer term.
Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.
And why an SD slot?
That makes little sense.
Yes, its a popular card, but so is the card from my D-SLR, which is Compact Flash.
What's annoying about an SD slot is that you can get an adapter for SD cards for a Compact Flash slot, it isn't done the other way around, and a flash adapter can always go into an Express slot.
Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.
And why an SD slot?
I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.
The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.
A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.
By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.
It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.
I have to say it's fun to read the old part of the thread where people are complaining about the lack of a 13" MacBook Pro and arguing about the inclusion of FireWire. Now all they need to do is get FW800 on the MBA and I'll be in heaven.
Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.
Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.
I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.
The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.
A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.
By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.
It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.
I understand their reasoning for SD, but I think it's wrong.
Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?
Do you realize that an SD adapter only sticks out of a CF slot by about 3/8"? That's not much.
A FW800 to CF adapter costs at least $50. I know, as I have one. But an SD to CF adapter only costs $15. We have that too.
It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB?
As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.
Apple lost the money I had set aside for a MacBook as I ended up spending it on a Lumix G1. There's no problem with that as I am but one of many potential clients. However, no company likes it when someone saves money with the intention of spending it on their products only to see that cash go into another company's pocket because the final product line didn't meet the users requirements. The question has to be, just how many other people acted the same way I did?
Perhaps enough to warrant a re-think on the 13 inch unibody design. We will never know though as nobody at Apple has ever had the time of day to come out and explain exactly why it was taken off in the first place (excepting SJ's silly pseudo-official comment).
I have to say it's fun to read the old part of the thread where people are complaining about the lack of a 13" MacBook Pro and arguing about the inclusion of FireWire. Now all they need to do is get FW800 on the MBA and I'll be in heaven.
Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.
Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.
Why do you think that FW is serial scsi? It's very different.
As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.
As I stated, they could have shrunk the battery, moved the HDD over a bit and added the ports and circuitry. But I?d rather more battery than a FW400 port. Also as stated, Apple was obsolescing the FW400 port, not FW altogether.
If were discounting Apple?s longstanding design aesthetics as mandatory for Apple designers, then they could have added it pretty much anywhere they please. They dont? have to use just the sides, or in the case of the MB, the left side. Why not put the audio ports in the front. We can go on all day about what Apple or any other company coulda/woulda/shoulda, but the fact remains that under that design there was no room to add it and it was the least need of the ports for the vast majority of people.
As I?ve been stating since the 17? MBP announcement, if Apple goes that route with the the 13? MB FW800 be included ?for the first time? since the FW800/1600/3200 port is not going away just yet.
The MB event was not the first time Apple has done things like this. The original 15? MBP when through 2 revisions of only having a SL-DVD writer while the 2 years before that the 16? PB had a DL-DVD writer. They moved from a 11.7mm to a 9.5mm drive and the tech was not ready. It was also a slower drive all around. While people were upset by this backwards move to expect Apple to make their new machine thicker for this momentary setback is absurd.
Whether Apple expected to go with non-user replaceable before the last year?s MB and MBP, I can?t tell you, but after seeing the 17? MBP it seemed obvious under what circumstances that would bring it back. The only caveat is that they removed the separate mic port and did not add, along with FW800, any other ports, like another USB2.0, which would come in handy to a lot more people than FW800.
Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?
Perhaps to discourage the use of Compact Flash. One thing I don't like about CF is that there is no hardware write-protection and the connection uses pins. That's just asking for trouble somewhere down the line when someone inserts a card badly and bends a pin inside the machine. SD doesn't have the problem. I know there are reasons why CF has advantages such as being more rugged and allowing larger capacities but as I say, having a slot with pins in it that is used a lot is more susceptible to damage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFER
i don't need an sd slot i use this
That does seem pretty compact. Perhaps all Apple should have done is include a 3rd USB port and one of those adaptors. The issue again though is when someone forgets to take the adaptor. Having a hard-wired SD slot means it's always there whatever happens. No cables, no adaptors.
Perhaps to discourage the use of Compact Flash. One thing I don't like about CF is that there is no hardware write-protection and the connection uses pins. That's just asking for trouble somewhere down the line when someone inserts a card badly and bends a pin inside the machine. SD doesn't have the problem. I know there are reasons why CF has advantages such as being more rugged and allowing larger capacities but as I say, having a slot with pins in it that is used a lot is more susceptible to damage.
I've never had a problem with the pins in the sockets, where they're protected, and I don't see how you can insert a CF so as to damage the pins.
On the other hand, the exposed connectors on SD cards get dirty, scratched, and damaged. It's been criticized for that. It's very much an amateur card.
The pro community has been down on Canon for using one on the Pro line in addition to the CF card. Nikon hasn't done that.
I've never had a problem with the pins in the sockets, where they're protected, and I don't see how you can insert a CF so as to damage the pins.
You would really just have to force it slightly off-center and catch the edge of a pin or maybe something could block one of the holes in the card and push the pin out the way:
On the other hand, the exposed connectors on SD cards get dirty, scratched, and damaged. It's been criticized for that. It's very much an amateur card.
True, the connectors do wear but I wouldn't mind if the cards wear out and the reader stays in tact. On a camera it's the difference between a $30 card and a $125 repair. There are cards with better connectors that say things like 10,000 insertions minimum.
You would really just have to force it slightly off-center and catch the edge of a pin or maybe something could block one of the holes in the card and push the pin out the way:
True, the connectors do wear but I wouldn't mind if the cards wear out and the reader stays in tact. On a camera it's the difference between a $30 card and a $125 repair. There are cards with better connectors that say things like 10,000 insertions minimum.
As you probably know, I had a commercial photo lab here in NYC for many years. When digital first came out, we were one of the first to service it.
I had hundreds of professional customers who used digital going back years. The truth is I never had someone tell me of a problem with a CF card or slot caused by an incorrect insertion that damaged either. My customers often brought their equipment in to us so that we could sent it out to service for them, so I did see a lot of damaged equipment.
While it obviously happens, it happens rarely. It isn't a reason to not want to use CF cards. I'm sure I could look around in Google and find problems with SD cards as well.
So we are back to all Mac laptops having Firewire again? Interesting. I feel bad for the folks who bought the USB only version.
It's not too bad. I know people who have the 13" sans FW, and it's a nice little laptop.
If you don't have legacy FW devices or do the iMovie thing, it's not so bad.
They will get shortchanged on the resale value, and Target Disk Mode is unavailable. But if they hold them for the machine's useful life, they won't miss FW too much (especially if they are coming from the PC side of things.)
Who will explain what an SD card is for? By the way, nice move from Apple's part to bring back FW.
An SD (Secure Digital) card is a removable memory card that is primarily used to capture photos in digital cameras. I am unaware as to whether an SD slot can be repurposed for any kind of system expansion a la ExpressCard, but I don't think so.
The fact that the newer versions of SD (SDHC) are being increasingly adopted by most video camera makers instead of MiniDV tape, 8cm discs or internal hard drives is probably the factor that pushed Apple to adopt the slot over the rival CompactFlash format.
Comments
Please, he said that there was no need for it and half the zealots in this thread agreed. Apple is clearly changing their tune on that now.
/shrug
There isn't for a consumer model...the 13" is a "pro" model now and that leaves room for...something else.
Like maybe a netbook or tablet.
Losing expresscard is more annoying for the 15". I'd rather lose FW800 on the 15" and get expresscard across the entire line.
the whole 'not enough space' has been debunked many times
i guess they magically created the space for an SD slot using dark matter
and never mind that this was not your argument before
(which was that FW was obsolete tech given the ubiquity of USB)
oh well I guess everyone's happy now
It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB? Remember, you can’t use the back, the front, the top, the bottom, the lid, the keyboard, the display, any place that already has port, or any place that the bottom lid would touch. Besides it being obvious to most people that it was a space issue, they even moved the ports slightly closer together which messed up my having my 3G card plugged into my Mac with my iPhone cable no longer work. i had to buy a 12” USB m-to-f cable to accommodate it. Why would they move it closer together when, according to you, there is so much extra room? Why not remove all FW to replace with USB if you claim that Apple is actually go back on their decision to remove FW? If you now say that it’s just FW400, then why did they not add FW800 or another USB2.0 port? The only rational answer is that there was no space and the images prove it.
Please, he said that there was no need for it and half the zealots in this thread agreed. Apple is clearly changing their tune on that now.
Jobs wrote a letter saying that all new video cameras didn’t use FW anymore. While, he was incorrect as there were some older DVs that did, almost all use USB at this point. It’s been predicted that FW800 would come to the MB as soon as the lid was screwed on and user accessible. If you really think that there was no need for it why have all new Macs have it, even the Mac Mini got FW800, the MBP never lost it, if you claim that there was no need for FW at all.
Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.
And why an SD slot?
That makes little sense.
Yes, its a popular card, but so is the card from my D-SLR, which is Compact Flash.
What's annoying about an SD slot is that you can get an adapter for SD cards for a Compact Flash slot, it isn't done the other way around, and a flash adapter can always go into an Express slot.
Too bad about the Express slot though. I don't understand that.
And why an SD slot?
I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.
The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.
A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.
By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.
It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.
Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.
Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.
I don't think many Macbook Pro owners use their Express Card slots. The adaptors are often expensive or don't have Mac drivers anyway. Firewire 800 is decent enough for storage and for audio interfaces.
The reason to use SD is that it's a very common storage format and I imagine due to the size, it's one Apple would like to promote. Apple are probably trying to make the experience best for the most users here.
A 32GB SD card is £65 and is very handy if you want to copy large files quickly from one laptop to another. I can understand the point about using CF slots and the point that there are SD card ExpressCard adaptors but I actually think it's a good move. The reason floppies stayed around so long is there was no other built-in read/write format besides the far from practical optical RW and there hasn't been anything decent besides flash cards.
By sticking with ExpressCard, it means you have to pay more for addons so people don't and you end up with this very handy read/write format not becoming widely used. This way SD card use is promoted and helps affirm the standard.
It's good to hear about Firewire going back on the 13" model. I wish they'd get rid of the white one though and drop the aluminum model price just a bit further. I guess that will happen at the next revision.
I understand their reasoning for SD, but I think it's wrong.
Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?
Do you realize that an SD adapter only sticks out of a CF slot by about 3/8"? That's not much.
A FW800 to CF adapter costs at least $50. I know, as I have one. But an SD to CF adapter only costs $15. We have that too.
They could have included one.
It was proven many times. Find me where it would go on the old unibody MB?
As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.
Apple lost the money I had set aside for a MacBook as I ended up spending it on a Lumix G1. There's no problem with that as I am but one of many potential clients. However, no company likes it when someone saves money with the intention of spending it on their products only to see that cash go into another company's pocket because the final product line didn't meet the users requirements. The question has to be, just how many other people acted the same way I did?
Perhaps enough to warrant a re-think on the 13 inch unibody design. We will never know though as nobody at Apple has ever had the time of day to come out and explain exactly why it was taken off in the first place (excepting SJ's silly pseudo-official comment).
I have to say it's fun to read the old part of the thread where people are complaining about the lack of a 13" MacBook Pro and arguing about the inclusion of FireWire. Now all they need to do is get FW800 on the MBA and I'll be in heaven.
Oh, and the SD card slot baffles me, too. Not only does it exclude Compact Flash, but it is a thumb in the eye of those of us who bought those cool SD cards with built-in USB jacks. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya.
Before proclaiming the death of FireWire I'd keep one eye on the evolution of the standards. FW is just serial SCSI, which has proven to be one of the most long-lived protocols in use--not just for backward compatibility, either. If they can keep bumping it up in speed it will remain competitive for a long time.
Why do you think that FW is serial scsi? It's very different.
As has been said before it was not a question of not fitting, it was a case of it not being designed to accomodate a FW port. IMO, poor design at that point in time. It would have fitted if they had designed it to fit.
As I stated, they could have shrunk the battery, moved the HDD over a bit and added the ports and circuitry. But I?d rather more battery than a FW400 port. Also as stated, Apple was obsolescing the FW400 port, not FW altogether.
If were discounting Apple?s longstanding design aesthetics as mandatory for Apple designers, then they could have added it pretty much anywhere they please. They dont? have to use just the sides, or in the case of the MB, the left side. Why not put the audio ports in the front. We can go on all day about what Apple or any other company coulda/woulda/shoulda, but the fact remains that under that design there was no room to add it and it was the least need of the ports for the vast majority of people.
As I?ve been stating since the 17? MBP announcement, if Apple goes that route with the the 13? MB FW800 be included ?for the first time? since the FW800/1600/3200 port is not going away just yet.
The MB event was not the first time Apple has done things like this. The original 15? MBP when through 2 revisions of only having a SL-DVD writer while the 2 years before that the 16? PB had a DL-DVD writer. They moved from a 11.7mm to a 9.5mm drive and the tech was not ready. It was also a slower drive all around. While people were upset by this backwards move to expect Apple to make their new machine thicker for this momentary setback is absurd.
Whether Apple expected to go with non-user replaceable before the last year?s MB and MBP, I can?t tell you, but after seeing the 17? MBP it seemed obvious under what circumstances that would bring it back. The only caveat is that they removed the separate mic port and did not add, along with FW800, any other ports, like another USB2.0, which would come in handy to a lot more people than FW800.
http://www.amazon.com/Sandisk-SDSDPH...4495959&sr=1-5
Why cut out the users of the better cameras? Why should we have to use a FW to CF adapter hanging out of the computer, when we could stick our cards into the slot directly?
Perhaps to discourage the use of Compact Flash. One thing I don't like about CF is that there is no hardware write-protection and the connection uses pins. That's just asking for trouble somewhere down the line when someone inserts a card badly and bends a pin inside the machine. SD doesn't have the problem. I know there are reasons why CF has advantages such as being more rugged and allowing larger capacities but as I say, having a slot with pins in it that is used a lot is more susceptible to damage.
i don't need an sd slot i use this
That does seem pretty compact. Perhaps all Apple should have done is include a 3rd USB port and one of those adaptors. The issue again though is when someone forgets to take the adaptor. Having a hard-wired SD slot means it's always there whatever happens. No cables, no adaptors.
Perhaps to discourage the use of Compact Flash. One thing I don't like about CF is that there is no hardware write-protection and the connection uses pins. That's just asking for trouble somewhere down the line when someone inserts a card badly and bends a pin inside the machine. SD doesn't have the problem. I know there are reasons why CF has advantages such as being more rugged and allowing larger capacities but as I say, having a slot with pins in it that is used a lot is more susceptible to damage.
I've never had a problem with the pins in the sockets, where they're protected, and I don't see how you can insert a CF so as to damage the pins.
On the other hand, the exposed connectors on SD cards get dirty, scratched, and damaged. It's been criticized for that. It's very much an amateur card.
The pro community has been down on Canon for using one on the Pro line in addition to the CF card. Nikon hasn't done that.
I've never had a problem with the pins in the sockets, where they're protected, and I don't see how you can insert a CF so as to damage the pins.
You would really just have to force it slightly off-center and catch the edge of a pin or maybe something could block one of the holes in the card and push the pin out the way:
http://www.lezot.com/servlet/the-1/D...ent-pin/Detail
http://ask.metafilter.com/57318/Help...n-in-a-CF-slot
http://www.reduser.net/forum/archive...hp/t-6301.html
http://www.fixya.com/tags/compact_flash_bent_pin
On the other hand, the exposed connectors on SD cards get dirty, scratched, and damaged. It's been criticized for that. It's very much an amateur card.
True, the connectors do wear but I wouldn't mind if the cards wear out and the reader stays in tact. On a camera it's the difference between a $30 card and a $125 repair. There are cards with better connectors that say things like 10,000 insertions minimum.
You would really just have to force it slightly off-center and catch the edge of a pin or maybe something could block one of the holes in the card and push the pin out the way:
http://www.lezot.com/servlet/the-1/D...ent-pin/Detail
http://ask.metafilter.com/57318/Help...n-in-a-CF-slot
http://www.reduser.net/forum/archive...hp/t-6301.html
http://www.fixya.com/tags/compact_flash_bent_pin
True, the connectors do wear but I wouldn't mind if the cards wear out and the reader stays in tact. On a camera it's the difference between a $30 card and a $125 repair. There are cards with better connectors that say things like 10,000 insertions minimum.
As you probably know, I had a commercial photo lab here in NYC for many years. When digital first came out, we were one of the first to service it.
I had hundreds of professional customers who used digital going back years. The truth is I never had someone tell me of a problem with a CF card or slot caused by an incorrect insertion that damaged either. My customers often brought their equipment in to us so that we could sent it out to service for them, so I did see a lot of damaged equipment.
While it obviously happens, it happens rarely. It isn't a reason to not want to use CF cards. I'm sure I could look around in Google and find problems with SD cards as well.
So we are back to all Mac laptops having Firewire again? Interesting. I feel bad for the folks who bought the USB only version.
It's not too bad. I know people who have the 13" sans FW, and it's a nice little laptop.
If you don't have legacy FW devices or do the iMovie thing, it's not so bad.
They will get shortchanged on the resale value, and Target Disk Mode is unavailable. But if they hold them for the machine's useful life, they won't miss FW too much (especially if they are coming from the PC side of things.)
The pro community has been down on Canon for using one on the Pro line in addition to the CF card. Nikon hasn't done that.
The D80 and D90 both use SD cards. I know a $1000 camera isn't "pro", but in terms of sheer numbers, there must be more of them out there.
Not to mention, almost every consumer digicam uses SD now. Even Sony and Olympus are starting to abandon their stupid MS and XD formats.
Who will explain what an SD card is for? By the way, nice move from Apple's part to bring back FW.
An SD (Secure Digital) card is a removable memory card that is primarily used to capture photos in digital cameras. I am unaware as to whether an SD slot can be repurposed for any kind of system expansion a la ExpressCard, but I don't think so.
The fact that the newer versions of SD (SDHC) are being increasingly adopted by most video camera makers instead of MiniDV tape, 8cm discs or internal hard drives is probably the factor that pushed Apple to adopt the slot over the rival CompactFlash format.
Two birds, one slot.